Liepard is the king of hax (step down, rachi). It's prankster shenanigans ruin everyone's day, and it wouldn't be a stretch to say that whole battles have been turned upside down by it T-Wave Swagger. It's happened to me more times than I can count. Literally. The only true "counters" to the strategy are things with Magic Coat and Titanic Defenses that can take Foul Play, such as Big Luvdisc and Bastiodon. All in all, Liepard is an annoying Pokemon that is difficult to counter, and should be prepared against.
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Liepard Suspect Discussion (Read post #202)
- Thread starter Raseri
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I thought I'd chip in a point about the potential of testing/banning Assist + Prankster rather than Liepard as a whole. Here's a total list of Smogon's so-called "complex bans" in all tiers: Drizzle + Swift Swim and Shell Smash + Baton Pass.
Now, first off I'd like to talk about Lati@s + Soul Dew, which many people characterize as a complex ban. It isn't. It's banning an item that was deemed to make otherwise healthy-to-the-metagame pokemon broken. Feel free to use Soul Dew on something else OU to make a point. Be my guest.
That leaves two complex bans, one a combination of two moves, one a combination of two abilities. Now what is the deal with both of these complex bans? Drizzle and Swift Swim was a way to ensure that Drizzle would continue to see usage, albeit neutered substantially, while things like Kingdra could still be used on opposing teams as a Rain counter as well as the fact that manual rain was allowed to continue to be a thing in OU and also lower tiers, which would have been impossible with a strict Swift Swim ban. It was a flexible way to allow entire playstyles and numerous Pokemon continue to function, while only removing the most horrifically broken element from OU. SmashPass similarly allows Gorebyss and Smeargle to continue to do some things. Gorebyss can still Smash and sweep, Smeargle can still do all of Smeargle's numerous non-SmashPass sets.
Both of these are cases where one Pokemon (Politoed, Smeargle, Gorebyss) were making teammates unfairly amazing because of the combination. Neither half of the equation alone was seen as broken however, so they just severed the tie and allowed MOST of the strategies to continue to exist.
Liepard does not fit into this category in the slightest. It's not Liepard providing team support to improve teammates. It's 5 teammates bending over backwards for Liepard to troll the opponent into submission, with few counters, and even fewer reasonably standard ones. This "combo" is much closer to Speed Boost Blaziken, where elements on one Pokemon make a set of that one Pokemon broken, than it is to DrizzleSwim or SmashPass and as such, Smogon policy is not to remove the broken elements, but rather the broken Pokemon.
As I see it, the answer is simple. Ban Liepard. If people want to simultaneously test Purrloin or even Persian etc, I'd be interested in hearing more. But the complex ban is illogical and against Smogon precedent.
Now, first off I'd like to talk about Lati@s + Soul Dew, which many people characterize as a complex ban. It isn't. It's banning an item that was deemed to make otherwise healthy-to-the-metagame pokemon broken. Feel free to use Soul Dew on something else OU to make a point. Be my guest.
That leaves two complex bans, one a combination of two moves, one a combination of two abilities. Now what is the deal with both of these complex bans? Drizzle and Swift Swim was a way to ensure that Drizzle would continue to see usage, albeit neutered substantially, while things like Kingdra could still be used on opposing teams as a Rain counter as well as the fact that manual rain was allowed to continue to be a thing in OU and also lower tiers, which would have been impossible with a strict Swift Swim ban. It was a flexible way to allow entire playstyles and numerous Pokemon continue to function, while only removing the most horrifically broken element from OU. SmashPass similarly allows Gorebyss and Smeargle to continue to do some things. Gorebyss can still Smash and sweep, Smeargle can still do all of Smeargle's numerous non-SmashPass sets.
Both of these are cases where one Pokemon (Politoed, Smeargle, Gorebyss) were making teammates unfairly amazing because of the combination. Neither half of the equation alone was seen as broken however, so they just severed the tie and allowed MOST of the strategies to continue to exist.
Liepard does not fit into this category in the slightest. It's not Liepard providing team support to improve teammates. It's 5 teammates bending over backwards for Liepard to troll the opponent into submission, with few counters, and even fewer reasonably standard ones. This "combo" is much closer to Speed Boost Blaziken, where elements on one Pokemon make a set of that one Pokemon broken, than it is to DrizzleSwim or SmashPass and as such, Smogon policy is not to remove the broken elements, but rather the broken Pokemon.
As I see it, the answer is simple. Ban Liepard. If people want to simultaneously test Purrloin or even Persian etc, I'd be interested in hearing more. But the complex ban is illogical and against Smogon precedent.
OK here's my though on suspecting Liepard:
There's a lot of people who thinks SwagPlay Liepard, which can easily beat unprepared offensive teams, is the broken set, but it's quite easy to beat with a slow special attacker or a Ground-type (don't forget having good luck). Sure it's a really annoying set, but it can't be compared to Assist Liepard.
We all once faced a Riolu team, and to be honest Assist teams are even worse. Protect doesn't stop Liepard from phazing you away next turn with +1 priority. Liepard is way faster than Riolu, making it harder to revenge with slower priority user. The list goes on ... Few Pokemon can potentially 'counter' Assist cat from doing too much, such as Stealth Rock + Rapid Spin Torkoal or the almighty Suction Cups Cradily, which as you can probably see can't fit on every team.
I don't want to write too much about it since I believe it has been covered already, but you get the deal: Assist paired with Liepard's Prankster ability is what make Liepard 'broken', since it is pretty hard to make a team able to check all the threats in NU and being able to stop Assist-teams reliably without having to use some obscure Pokemon like Suction Cups Cradily or not running Stealth Rock on your team.
There's a lot of people who thinks SwagPlay Liepard, which can easily beat unprepared offensive teams, is the broken set, but it's quite easy to beat with a slow special attacker or a Ground-type (don't forget having good luck). Sure it's a really annoying set, but it can't be compared to Assist Liepard.
We all once faced a Riolu team, and to be honest Assist teams are even worse. Protect doesn't stop Liepard from phazing you away next turn with +1 priority. Liepard is way faster than Riolu, making it harder to revenge with slower priority user. The list goes on ... Few Pokemon can potentially 'counter' Assist cat from doing too much, such as Stealth Rock + Rapid Spin Torkoal or the almighty Suction Cups Cradily, which as you can probably see can't fit on every team.
I don't want to write too much about it since I believe it has been covered already, but you get the deal: Assist paired with Liepard's Prankster ability is what make Liepard 'broken', since it is pretty hard to make a team able to check all the threats in NU and being able to stop Assist-teams reliably without having to use some obscure Pokemon like Suction Cups Cradily or not running Stealth Rock on your team.
I did go on a tangent before, I just don't think Liepard as a pokemon should get baned and instead 'assist + prankster'. All pokemon with 'assist + prankster' can abuse this (purrlion to a lot lesser extent).
Just the thought of potentially banning Liepard for an uncompetitive gimmick it can effectively run rather than for a legitimately competitive set really irks me. You do realize that Liepard will continue to execute Assist spam in any tier it wants to (it's arguably more effective in UU) and will thus eventually lead to more suspect tests for the same reason?
Banning Liepard as a whole is absolutely ridiculous and will be done for all of the wrong reasons. To begin with, Assist Liepard is not even an overcentralizing force for it to warrant banishment. There are a plethora of legitimate ways to keep it at bay and prevent it from wrecking you, you simply need to understand how the team works and not make stupid plays. You deserve to lose if you don't know what the hell you're up against. It's blatantly obvious.
Liepard is not ban-worthy, people just need to man up and stop bitching about it. It's not like you're guaranteed to lose if you carry a viable team with Liepard answers. It's just like Jynx all over again. Don't carry Jynx answers? You deserve to lose. Don't carry Liepard answers? You deserve to lose. If anything, ban Assist itself or Prankster + Assist. I'm not one for restricting NU with red tape or enforcing such complex bans, though, so Liepard should just stay the way it is.
Edit: To clarify, I'm not basing this argument on Assist Liepard usage, as some users below have claimed. I'll be sure to edit this to be more clear.
Banning Liepard as a whole is absolutely ridiculous and will be done for all of the wrong reasons. To begin with, Assist Liepard is not even an overcentralizing force for it to warrant banishment. There are a plethora of legitimate ways to keep it at bay and prevent it from wrecking you, you simply need to understand how the team works and not make stupid plays. You deserve to lose if you don't know what the hell you're up against. It's blatantly obvious.
Liepard is not ban-worthy, people just need to man up and stop bitching about it. It's not like you're guaranteed to lose if you carry a viable team with Liepard answers. It's just like Jynx all over again. Don't carry Jynx answers? You deserve to lose. Don't carry Liepard answers? You deserve to lose. If anything, ban Assist itself or Prankster + Assist. I'm not one for restricting NU with red tape or enforcing such complex bans, though, so Liepard should just stay the way it is.
Edit: To clarify, I'm not basing this argument on Assist Liepard usage, as some users below have claimed. I'll be sure to edit this to be more clear.
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If banning Lati@s + Soul Dew was meant to prevent Lati@s from being broken in OU, banning Assist + Prankster (but NOT banning Liepard) wouldn't be much of a stretch from that in NU. I can argue that Liepard can actually be healthy for the meta, or at least the Pivot set, since gives us a fast Pursuit trapper that can disrupt momentum and gain momentum with U-turn. By banning Assist + Prankster we can keep that (i.e. something that's otherwise healthy to the metagame), but not have to deal with the factor of it that's arguably broken.
I would just like to point out that usage has no impact on a ban or suspect (see gothitelle in UU or smash pass in RU).
The obvious difference is that if you want to look at it that way, Soul Dew is one element which broke Lati@s, much like how Moody is banned in Ubers rather than Octillery or Smeargle etc or a combination. These aren't combinations that cause brokenness. They're just a single element. The fact that Soul Dew only works on Lati@s is irrelevant tbh. It would be banned if it worked on more or even all Pokemon too.
This is compared to a true combination ban, like Assist and Prankster, which would turn Liepard's simple ban into a clusterfuck of a ban.
Also, what atomicllamas said. Usage is irrelevant. If anything higher usage of Assist teams would make them less effective since more teams would carry counters, so that argument is just totally irrelevant.
Let me start by saying this: if I had to vote today on a binary vote for Liepard, I would straight up vote not broken. Let me also say this: I hate the Assist set as much as everyone else in this thread who has seen it, and I believe that while it is not broken, it is thoroughly uncompetitive. There is a very large difference in my opinion between "uncompetitive" and "broken", and while the two may overlap sometimes, they should be defined differently.
Broken is when a set or a Pokemon utterly dominates a metagame, and that a team is objectively worse when it doesn't use said Pokemon. Uncompetitive is when a set or Pokemon's sole purpose is to attempt to win the game with any method other than skill, be it hax or other ways.
Liepard's sets are not broken; there are ways to deal with every set it has, and you can't say that a team is automatically worse by not using Liepard. However, the Assist set in conjunction with the proper team is extremely uncompetitive. That's just the problem though: you can't say a singular Pokemon is broken when you need an entire team to take advantage of the strategy. A Liepard with Assist on its own is inconsistent at best, useless at worse.
That point should be the huge tip-off: a straight Liepard ban for its Assist set is both pointless and a disservice to the metagame. However, on the standard Assist team, you also can't pinpoint any other component of the team as "broken". Whirlwind/Roar on their own are not broken or even uncompetitive. Switcheroo and Trick and Destiny Bond are not broken or uncompetitive. The Pokemon used: Lopunny, Arbok, Shiftry, Drifblim/Haunter, and Ditto are not broken or uncompetive on their own. Obviously, I'm going to suggest a complex ban here, but not any of the ones listed in Antar's post.
I believe we should vote to ban Assist + Whirlwind / Roar on the same team. The reasoning is simple: the main thing that people in this thread seem to have a problem with is Liepard's ability to shuffle teams around effortlessly. It cannot do this without a teammate with Whirlwind or Roar. Other Pokemon, notably Purrloin and Persian, have the ability to use Assist too, and I believe that no matter which Pokemon is using Assist, it is uncompetitive.
That last part is important. I still don't think the strategy as a whole is broken, just uncompetitive. However, somebody quoted DougJustDoug's characteristic of a metagame referring to skill earlier, which fits this perfectly. It does not take much skill to operate an Assist team and beat 90+% of teams. As a whole, we need to decide whether or not we want to ban uncompetitive elements of the game, even if they aren't broken. In this case, I feel like it is justified.
miau
Broken is when a set or a Pokemon utterly dominates a metagame, and that a team is objectively worse when it doesn't use said Pokemon. Uncompetitive is when a set or Pokemon's sole purpose is to attempt to win the game with any method other than skill, be it hax or other ways.
Liepard's sets are not broken; there are ways to deal with every set it has, and you can't say that a team is automatically worse by not using Liepard. However, the Assist set in conjunction with the proper team is extremely uncompetitive. That's just the problem though: you can't say a singular Pokemon is broken when you need an entire team to take advantage of the strategy. A Liepard with Assist on its own is inconsistent at best, useless at worse.
That point should be the huge tip-off: a straight Liepard ban for its Assist set is both pointless and a disservice to the metagame. However, on the standard Assist team, you also can't pinpoint any other component of the team as "broken". Whirlwind/Roar on their own are not broken or even uncompetitive. Switcheroo and Trick and Destiny Bond are not broken or uncompetitive. The Pokemon used: Lopunny, Arbok, Shiftry, Drifblim/Haunter, and Ditto are not broken or uncompetive on their own. Obviously, I'm going to suggest a complex ban here, but not any of the ones listed in Antar's post.
I believe we should vote to ban Assist + Whirlwind / Roar on the same team. The reasoning is simple: the main thing that people in this thread seem to have a problem with is Liepard's ability to shuffle teams around effortlessly. It cannot do this without a teammate with Whirlwind or Roar. Other Pokemon, notably Purrloin and Persian, have the ability to use Assist too, and I believe that no matter which Pokemon is using Assist, it is uncompetitive.
That last part is important. I still don't think the strategy as a whole is broken, just uncompetitive. However, somebody quoted DougJustDoug's characteristic of a metagame referring to skill earlier, which fits this perfectly. It does not take much skill to operate an Assist team and beat 90+% of teams. As a whole, we need to decide whether or not we want to ban uncompetitive elements of the game, even if they aren't broken. In this case, I feel like it is justified.
miau
Banning Liepard just because of one set where a whole team is dedicating its efforts to make a gimmicky Assist Liepard set work does not sound logical to me in the slightest. More so it seems like you're simply trying to use other bans to influence this one, which really shouldn't dictate the banning of Liepard or Assist.
Liepard is a good pivot, has an excellent support movepool and can function as a sweeper in some instances. Assist, on the other hand, is a shitty move with no competitive value that is only useful because Liepard has Prankster and is relatively fast. There is really little difference between banning something like Shell Smash + Baton Pass and banning Prankster + Assist (which I'm assuming only Liepard obtains, therefore Liepard + Prankster + Assist) in my opinion. When you ban Shell Smash + Baton Pass, Gorebyss still functions as a threatening sweeper. When you ban Liepard + Prankster + Assist, Liepard is still a decent pivot.
I think you're missing the point that Liepard is not inherently broken and as a result banning Liepard just because of one move combination that needs immense team support is just a ridiculous suggestion. Banning Liepard is equally as stupid as banning something like Politoed or Tyranitar/Hippowdon (pre Excadrill ban) because Liepard is actually healthy for the metagame, much like Politoed and Tyranitar.
I don't have much knowledge on the Blaziken-era, but from my understanding Blaziken had good attack, two fantastic STAB moves, a great boosting move, and Sun support. Liepard has to get entry hazards on the field and stay alive, while avoiding a plethora of other things.
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It's not against Smogon precedent; if it was, Gorebyss, Huntail, and Smeargle would have been banned from RU, and Kingdra, Kabutops, Ludicolo, and Omastar would have been banned from OU. This "combo" isn't close to Speed Boost Blaziken because there's a reason to run other viable Liepard sets that are far from broken.
I'm pretty sure the closest comparison that can be drawn here is this with the DrizzleSwim ban. It's not like all the DrizzleSwim abusers were broken. I'm sure Luvdisc and Lumineon didn't break the OU metagame at all. Yet DrizzleSwim was still banned because the perpetrators were bad enough, and they didn't want to ban the one overall cause of it—Politoed. The simplest way to resolve that particular issue would have been to ban Politoed. It was the reason for all of the broken Pokemon swimming around OU. Similary, the simplest way to resolve this issue would be to ban Liepard, but it wouldn't be the most effective way of handling it. Rather than banning Politoed, which is actually fine in the metagame, they banned the thing that made it broken. We should do the same, and ban either Prankster + Assist or Assist + Whirlwind/Roar. I don't really care which, but it would be the most effective way of handling this issue.
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my only concern with banning assist+whirlwind/roar is that of the 'divecats' strategy. I'm sure most people know how this works so I'm not going to bother explaining it. Divecats is another uncompetitive strategy that involves the use of prankster Liepard and assist. Of course, we could always make the complex ban of assist+2 turn move, but why make 2 complex bans when we can simply ban one move that has no effect on the metagame other than being uncompetitive. The proposition of a prankster+assist ban still stands, and either is a good choice in my opinion.
my bad then, molk told me it worked in singles too so im blaming him
no
that strategy is easy to beat and relies purely on hax to win, its not effective enough or uncompetitive enough to be suspected or banned
that strategy is easy to beat and relies purely on hax to win, its not effective enough or uncompetitive enough to be suspected or banned
Are you kidding me??? Swagger Liepard holds no competitive merit compared to accuracy evasion moves. It's a 50% change, it gives you a boost, and you can simply switch out. It is not important.
Just use something like Torkoal. If you hit them, you break the sub. If you hit you, leftovers recovery fixes it. Or any other defensive low-attack Pokemon. If you're really worried about it, minimize the attack stats of everything you use that doesn't need high attack. There are loads of counters to swagplay Liepard.
Swagpard really isn't the problem. It can be annoying, but it is also possible to deal with with any team.
I really want to mention this post Antar made, it takes all of the options that people have presented (aside from assist + ww, but that can be added too). I recommend you all read it and think about it. IMO it makes a lot of sense.
I really want to mention this post Antar made, it takes all of the options that people have presented (aside from assist + ww, but that can be added too). I recommend you all read it and think about it. IMO it makes a lot of sense.
Anyone who thinks Swagpard is unhealthy for the metagame needs to stop posting.
Touching on Assist, a strategy that is both requires an entire team built around it (in which most, if not all, of the other Pokemon are ineffectual, and Liepard is your only win condition) and is pretty easy to disrupt if you can see it coming (which you should be able to, since Liepard teams are so limited in how you can build them) is definitely not bannable. A bunch of whining is not tantamount to a strategy being broken.
To what extent is this strategy uncompetitive? Battling skill still comes into play if you use this team; I've battled a few people who botched the strategy awfully and I was able to snag a win when someone had me in the loop and decided to set up a Nasty Plot while Alomomola was in play. Assistpard is much more competitive, skill intensive, even thought-requiring than Swagpard, which most people would agree definitely isn't banworthy (due to "uncompetitiveness"???).
I don't see a need for a complex or simple ban on this strategy, and 85 more games won't change my opinion. If you're voting, think for yourself first: Is this strategy not fit for competitive play, or does it just make you salty? Your vote should depend on your answer to this question.
Touching on Assist, a strategy that is both requires an entire team built around it (in which most, if not all, of the other Pokemon are ineffectual, and Liepard is your only win condition) and is pretty easy to disrupt if you can see it coming (which you should be able to, since Liepard teams are so limited in how you can build them) is definitely not bannable. A bunch of whining is not tantamount to a strategy being broken.
To what extent is this strategy uncompetitive? Battling skill still comes into play if you use this team; I've battled a few people who botched the strategy awfully and I was able to snag a win when someone had me in the loop and decided to set up a Nasty Plot while Alomomola was in play. Assistpard is much more competitive, skill intensive, even thought-requiring than Swagpard, which most people would agree definitely isn't banworthy (due to "uncompetitiveness"???).
I don't see a need for a complex or simple ban on this strategy, and 85 more games won't change my opinion. If you're voting, think for yourself first: Is this strategy not fit for competitive play, or does it just make you salty? Your vote should depend on your answer to this question.
1) Never before has Smogon banned something for being "uncompetitive". And Moody was broken, not uncompetitive.
2) A few examples of Swagpard's counters and how you have to think and construct a team well to win when using this strategy;
Echoing Plus:
Say your opponent is using RestTalk Cradily. Unless you have a nasty plot set up, Liepard will usually lose the 1v1 against Cradily. Your win condition is to find room to plot, sub, or both while whirlwinding through your opponent's team.
So;
"Uncompetitive" is a poor reason to ban something.
The Liepard assist strategy is not skilless; it simply has an alternative win condition and good and bad team matchups.
2) A few examples of Swagpard's counters and how you have to think and construct a team well to win when using this strategy;
Echoing Plus:
Both pokemon are very popular in NU; Liepard's win condition is to kill Sawk while leaving Golem alive, then set up Stealth Rock. Liepard cannot use Assist much before Sawk dies or the win condition is ruined. Liepard will commonly lose; if you're an experienced player with a little creativity, you can switch in Gothorita to trick a Sticky Barb to Sawk and then stall it out. This takes foresight, skill, and critical team building.
Kangaskhan needs to die or Liepard needs room to sub in order to make the win condition consistent; you may still win, but bad luck with Whirlwind will have Liepard dead before you can deal substantial damage to your opponent's team. In this scenario, you can use Ditto to deal with Kanga or you will have to get thinking on another way to wear it down; your team has little offense aside from Ditto, Focus Punch being unusable against a standard Kangaskhan. You can win, but you need effort and a little elbow grease.
Say your opponent is using RestTalk Cradily. Unless you have a nasty plot set up, Liepard will usually lose the 1v1 against Cradily. Your win condition is to find room to plot, sub, or both while whirlwinding through your opponent's team.
So;
"Uncompetitive" is a poor reason to ban something.
The Liepard assist strategy is not skilless; it simply has an alternative win condition and good and bad team matchups.
Firstly, Liepard teams are NOT easy to disrupt even if you see it coming right from the start. Here are a few ways you could theoretically disrupt these teams with: Cradily, Kangaskhan, Magic Coat users, double switching with your Stealth Rock user. However, these Pokemon cannot find their way on every team, but even if they do, smart playing by the Liepard user can get around all of them: The Liepard user could, for instance, shuffle around the opponent's team until the hazard user comes into play. From there, it is a losing situation for the opponent because if he double switches to try and catch Ditto, he risks giving Liepard a setup opportunity, and if he doesn't, he risks Ditto laying hazards on him. This is literally almost risk free for the Liepard user because this shuffling can be done many times. Meanwhile, it's not like double switching to a Sawk would prevent Stealth Rock, since Drifblim is a common Pokemon on these teams and places even more prediction pressure on the opponent. Liepard forces Cradily users to use Suction Cups, which is completely inferior to Storm Drain, and every time he switches to Cradily, he again has to play that game of "will Ditto switch in?" Kangaskhan is harder to play around, but Fake Out damage is easily healed up with Leftovers and shuffling, and if Liepard sets up a Substitute on something else, Kangaskhan still loses. Trick it a Flame Orb, and that conpletely neuters Kangaskhan. Magic Coat users also carry the risk of getting set up on by Liepard, and out of all the common ones (Misdreavus, Golurk, Bastiodon) only Bastiodon isn't weak to Dark Pulse, but even then, the Liepard user can predict around Bastiodon and eventually go to Shiftry to kill it. And while Liepard is the most valuable thing on these teams since losing it would be detrimental, there are hardly any opportunities to kill it because of priority (unless the user mispredicts) and apart from that, Ditto and probably Shiftry are also able to clean up games in a pinch.
I'll agree that AssistCat requires some skill to use, but that's not a reason not to suspect it because in reality, it is very difficult to defeat because it has very few counters and even its counters can be played around will some skill. If you want to counter Liepard, your options and playstyle are very limited and one mistake in the game could very well screw you, while the opponent really doesn't risk anything apart from Liepard or Dirto dying. This imo is a good enough reason to suspect AssistCat (or whatever we're suspecting)
Okay so
I don't see the reason for banning Assist as uncompetitive. I see it as a suspect test because it's very difficult to counter and literally impossible to check. Then again, your statement is completely false because Sand Veil and Snow Cloak have been banned due to uncompetitiveness.
The very fact that Liepard only has a few tue counters limits teambuilding a lot if you want to counter it. If I'm having to place Suction Cups Cradily or Kangaskhan on every team, surely something is wrong with Liepard. Even these Pokemon can be played around like I stated. Also, Liepard doesn't necessarily have to be forced not to use Assist, since it can shuffle till it gets a favours matchup to setup or switch into something. Sticky Barb Gothorita is also really stupid.
Kangaskhan can either be Tricked a Flame Orb if it isn't careful, or it simply flat out loses if Liepard has an intact sub, which is not hard to get up considering the popularity of Misdreavus and Musharna. Your post seems to imply that Liepard is on its own against a fixed target; this is not the case because Liepard literally has the entire team around it and it can literally change its team matchup in one move.
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Yes, there is no 100% way to win a Pokemon battle. You will have to predict, make appropriate plays, etc. in order to win.
I mean, honestly. Is this your argument? Smart play by someone using the team will give them the win? Smart play SHOULD yield you the win; that's how the game is USUALLY won. Making that sweet Nasty Plot setup, sub, or the switch predict means that you've outsmarted your opponent; you get the reward of advancing your win condition. If you want to eliminate these risks from a Pokemon battle, you are making the game milquetoast and unenjoyable to play.
It can be done 32 times. You simply must lay down the rocks before using half of Assist's PP or you will often not have the gunpower to take down an opposing team. If you take too long to get to your win condition, you definitely have little to no chance of winning.
Suction Cups is actually common on RestTalk Cradily, a set which also does not run Stealth Rock; it's an absolutely viable set in NU and has more uses than defeating a Liepard.
Saying that smart play = a win is not an argument that leads towards a liepard ban; it's an argument that leads towards the opposite conclusion. In the game of Pokemon, you teambuild with checks, counters, and resistances in mind; viable counters to Liepard have more than one use (Kangaskhan is a great attacker, Cradily walls, pivots, sets up and sweeps, Magic Coat deflects hazards and defeats walls like Alomomola, et cetera, et cetera.)
If you look at metagame balance with your mindset, the game gets overcentralized, predictable, and boring. Your post does not tell us why the strategy isn't fit for competitive play, it tells us why the strategy is good.
EDIT: Not gonna double post again, but some things I missed;
"If you want to counter Liepard, your options and playstyle are very limited and one mistake in the game could very well screw you, while the opponent really doesn't risk anything apart from Liepard or Dirto dying."
Liepard and Ditto are the team's win conditions. Risking one of those two dying is risking your entire win condition, so it's basically risking the entire game on one play. If you want to be ballsy and predict the Sawk, you go for it, and you win if it pays off.
I'm glad that you agree that Assistpard isn't uncompetitive; it's good that some of our players approach these things with a more objective mindset. You have a point about Snow Cloak and Sand Veil which slipped my mind -- I'll admit that they effect the game in a bad way, but I'm sure we can agree this strategy is not to be banned for the same reason that these abilities were banned.
Kangaskhan CAN be tricked the flame orb; it's something that the player will have to take into account while playing. If the poke gets burned after your fake out, should you stay in and poke, or switch out? The choice is the player's.
If you think these counters are not splashable in a good NU team, then I have failed to convince you; it's entirely subjective and more wordfighting isn't going to convince you that any of these counters are practical. I won't bloat the thread further going back and forth, so this is probably my last post in the thread. That is the player's decision.
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