I agree with most of these points, and I think this post helps show how easily it kills stall. The great bulk and lack of quad weaknesses help it easily set up on defensive pokemon, and its wallbreaking capabilities are amazing. As I said before, the only things that can sort of wall it are Chansey and Cresselia in Sun. I just hate how it just massacres stall and defensive pokemon, making the metagame just so much more offensive, more so than most other pokemon. However, I disagree that it can be 'Played around' when playing stall, as the only thing you can do is predict perfectly and hope you have TS and get them up before it comes in. Alternately, you can try to get lucky and get hazards up and phaze it a lot, but it can easily 2HKO almost anything, making it hard to phaze.
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Kyurem-B Discussion: Is it Broken?
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I agree with most of these points, and I think this post helps show how easily it kills stall. The great bulk and lack of quad weaknesses help it easily set up on defensive pokemon, and its wallbreaking capabilities are amazing. As I said before, the only things that can sort of wall it are Chansey and Cresselia in Sun. I just hate how it just massacres stall and defensive pokemon, making the metagame just so much more offensive, more so than most other pokemon. However, I disagree that it can be 'Played around' when playing stall, as the only thing you can do is predict perfectly and hope you have TS and get them up before it comes in. Alternately, you can try to get lucky and get hazards up and phaze it a lot, but it can easily 2HKO almost anything, making it hard to phaze.
Like a lot of people, lately I've been playing around with Kyurem-B, trying to take advantage of it. The Substitute + 3 attacks version appealed to me, as Sub not only protects from status and revenge killing, but with Kyurem's excellent natural bulk allows it to eat weaker/resisted attacks.
Outrage/Fusion Bolt/Ice STAB seems fairly obvious. The item choice was looking like Life Orb or Leftovers. Life Orb with Substitute is already pushing the survivability line, and on a Pokemon as weak to hazards as Kyurem-B is, it was too much. Leftovers is helpful, but not to a significant degree on a set that is designed to function as a wallbreaker.
This led me to try Power Herb & Freeze Shock. It's only mentioned jokingly or in passing, but it's stronger than Outrage, also has STAB, and doesn't lock you in, allowing for a more surgical approach. As long as you're not throwing it at something resistant to Ice, you're going to have crippled or killed whatever tried to step in, and for example, it will seriously dent most Ferrothorn. Ferro being a major defensive threat to Kyurem, and a poor matchup unless you run HP Fire and rain isn't active.
A one-time use item has nice synergy with a goal of wallbreaking, and Sub will at times allow for a two-turn Freeze Shock. Of course a benefit of using 3x physical attacks is that there is no longer any concern regarding SpA EVs, and you're also now able to use a nature with no drawback (Adamant).
I was playing casually on my phone last night, but I saved a couple replays to show this in action:
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-51673016
(takes care of Ferrothorn given just enough prior damage, although it's important to note Ferrothorn with full defensive investment can still be an issue, particularly if they have Leftovers and Protect)
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-51689787
(shows an albeit uncommon scenario, where a two-turn Freeze Shock is still viable)
Just something to consider as this is debated, and the lack of a physical Ice move keeps coming up. You of course have to be careful in choosing when to burn your Power Herb, but Substitute helps a lot in that regard, easing prediction.
Outrage/Fusion Bolt/Ice STAB seems fairly obvious. The item choice was looking like Life Orb or Leftovers. Life Orb with Substitute is already pushing the survivability line, and on a Pokemon as weak to hazards as Kyurem-B is, it was too much. Leftovers is helpful, but not to a significant degree on a set that is designed to function as a wallbreaker.
This led me to try Power Herb & Freeze Shock. It's only mentioned jokingly or in passing, but it's stronger than Outrage, also has STAB, and doesn't lock you in, allowing for a more surgical approach. As long as you're not throwing it at something resistant to Ice, you're going to have crippled or killed whatever tried to step in, and for example, it will seriously dent most Ferrothorn. Ferro being a major defensive threat to Kyurem, and a poor matchup unless you run HP Fire and rain isn't active.
A one-time use item has nice synergy with a goal of wallbreaking, and Sub will at times allow for a two-turn Freeze Shock. Of course a benefit of using 3x physical attacks is that there is no longer any concern regarding SpA EVs, and you're also now able to use a nature with no drawback (Adamant).
I was playing casually on my phone last night, but I saved a couple replays to show this in action:
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-51673016
(takes care of Ferrothorn given just enough prior damage, although it's important to note Ferrothorn with full defensive investment can still be an issue, particularly if they have Leftovers and Protect)
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-51689787
(shows an albeit uncommon scenario, where a two-turn Freeze Shock is still viable)
Just something to consider as this is debated, and the lack of a physical Ice move keeps coming up. You of course have to be careful in choosing when to burn your Power Herb, but Substitute helps a lot in that regard, easing prediction.
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power herb unfortunately means no leftovers / lum berry / attack boosting item. Substitute does help though, perhaps to the point of just running the 3 attacks and sub. Dragon / Electric / Ice coverage is resisted only by Magnezone, who gets 2HKOd by life orb Outrage and has to rely on Flash Cannon (rare, at least for now) to hit him back
Having pressure is very useful as it would seem that Kyurem is the better SubRooster. However, that's basically its best set and eveybody sees it coming from a mile away. SubRoost Kyurem-B works very differently. Kyurem-B is a SubShufflingRooster that forces switches like no other pokemon. Roost isn't used to PP stall as much as it's used to wall the opposing team and allow for an endless supply of Substitutes/protection against dangerous attackers who are forced out by the threat(or literally, forced out) of Dragon Tail.
Kyurem-B would love pressure, but STAB Ice Beam with Teravolt allows it to destroys even 252/252+ Dragonite. It would appreciate taking 4 Stone Edges and not have to risk a crit (if stone edge, a maddening move doesn't miss), but it stalls 8 just fine and can tank Gyro Ball from Ferrothorn/Forretress prefectly. With Pressure it could even handle 24 PP moves Kyurem never would even dream of draining, but the last thing I'll mention is that nobody expects SubShuffling Physically Bulky Kyurem-B. Unlike shitty lures, this set is actually good on most teams. Opposing teams are going to be thinking about Outrage, Fusion bolt, and Ice beam coming off 170 Atk. Pressure would be the better ability for Kyurem-B, but he pulls off a Mixed SubShuffling set with Roost much better thanks to the switches he forces. (power helps as a deterrant, but really, the 10 physical bulk makes a bigger difference)
As a long-time battler and lurker, I decided to make a forum account just to comment on issues like Kyurem-B. I genuinely believe that while his attack IS quite franky ludicrous, he suffers from the same problems that keep Haxorus from being OP. Namely, his speed and movepool. While not at all frail, and not even that slow, Kyurem-B is outsped by a LOT of other popular OU picks, most notably Salamence and Garchomp, the latter of which is also immune to Kyurem-B's electric moves. Kyurem-B can equip a scarf in order to outspeed the faster mons, but that leaves him at the mercy of his weak movepool, which can make it VERY hard to pick a move that you're confident in spamming. His biggest advantage is his bulk, which is phenomenal, but sadly even this is undermined by Stealth Rock's 25% damage and his weakness to Rock and Fighting, two of the most-used offensive types.
Is Kyurem-B a shitmon? No. Of course not. With a proper teamcomp and smart play, he can be an excellent sweeper. Does he belong in Ubers or even BL? No. His movepool issues, along with his typing, hinder him too much to even do mediocre in those tiers.
OU is the perfect place for him. If left unchecked, he can rampage and dominate, but at the same time, he's easily predicted and walled out, if not outright killed by a faster mon. He's perfect where he is.
Is Kyurem-B a shitmon? No. Of course not. With a proper teamcomp and smart play, he can be an excellent sweeper. Does he belong in Ubers or even BL? No. His movepool issues, along with his typing, hinder him too much to even do mediocre in those tiers.
OU is the perfect place for him. If left unchecked, he can rampage and dominate, but at the same time, he's easily predicted and walled out, if not outright killed by a faster mon. He's perfect where he is.
My problem with this statement is that you state that Kyube can be 'easily predicted and walled out'. Now, this is just completely not true. If you don't have one of the very few counters to it (all of which restrict your teambuilding drastically), it will not be walled ever. It 2HKOs nearly the entire tier, and can easily set up subs against stall teams thanks to its bulk (Note that I am talking about the sub+4 attacks set). Even against offenive teams, once he gets a sub up, which he can against common threats like celebi or rotom-w, you can't revenge him, and are forced to sack a 'mon. However, my dislike of Kyube stems from the fact of how unfairly he punishes stall. He completely murders stall, and you just can't do anything about that besides run Chansey or Cresselia, both forcing you to run Sun or Rain. Also, his versatility allows him to easily 2HKO even those 2, albeit at the cost of being able to win against pokemon like skarmory (sometimes). I completely stand by the notion that Kyube should go to ubers, because it is quite possibly the biggest detriment to OU playstyles and pokemon viability right now. Even though we have no time left before X/Y, we should still be able to ban this thing.
Yeah, maybe I was speaking too much from personal experience. I myself have never had troubles with Kyurem-B, so I guess it's better if I look at it objectively. What you have said about being unpredictable is almost entirely false because no matter which way you look at it, he has a terrible movepool. Unpredictable would definitely describe Kyurem-W, but that's simply not the case here. There are very few moves that good ol' Blacky can run successfully, and nearly all of them are resisted by the current common walls (Mostly Ferrothorn). You say that his sub set is terrifying against stall teams, and I'll agree, especially with Hone Claws. It is. However that's not so much a problem with Kyurem-B as it is with the nature of Substitute itself. I'm bringing back Haxorus from my first post for this example here. If this Haxorus could get a sub off against a full stall team, he could just DD to hell and back and kill everyone. Same goes for almost every mon with access to Substitute and a boosting move. If you have a Pokemon that can do ANY SE damage at all with an even moderate offensive and speed stat, you WILL be able to break that sub as soon as he uses it, because remember: Kyurem-B isn't fast compared to popular guys like Garchomp and Salamence.
The sub set IS hard to deal with for stall teams, I'll agree. But you could say that about ANY pokemon and it would be true.
Ferrothorn can be 2HKO'd by Ice beam from the specially based mixed set. Kyurem, although it has a lacking movepool, has all the moves it needs to become a huge threat to any team. Notable examples include: Dclaw/Outrage (obviously), Fusion Bolt (hits bulky waters well), Ice beam (good STAB to beat things like Skarmory and Ferrothorn), Earth Power (perfect coverage with ice beam besides surskit), and HP (HP is broken, IMO). What I mean by 'unpredictability' is, do you switch in your Skarm to take a banded outrage, try to break his subs, or switch to your chansey to try to wall his sub+3 attacks set?
The difference between Kyube and Haxorus is the huge bulk difference. Kyube has higher HP, Defense, and SpD. It also retains some of the useful resistances, such as water, grass, and electric. However, beacause of his insane bulk, he can set up on bulky grasses (HP Ice won't do enough, neither will HP Fire), waters, and more. All these pokemon are staples on defensive teams, especially Celebi, Jellicent, and more.
28 SpA Amoonguss Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 124-146 (42.17 - 49.65%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
28 SpA Amoonguss Hidden Power Ice vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 50-59 (12.34 - 14.56%) -- 9HKO at best
0 SpA Jellicent Shadow Ball vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 84-99 (20.74 - 24.44%) -- possible 6HKO
0 SpA Jellicent Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 102-120 (34.69 - 40.81%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Etc
Also, another huge difference between Kyube and your example Sub+DD Haxorus, is that you get a free switch to, say, skarmory (note that this is just an example counter), and you can WW him for free, while you avoid the 2HKO, or just BB, or some other stuff. Whereas with Kyube, there is no safe switch in, as Skarm will get 2HKOd by Ice beam.
I say ban
Please don't act like Kyurem-Black can run Ice Beam, Fusion Bolt, HP Fire, Dragon STAB, Substitute and Roost on the same set, as well as 252+ in both SpAtk and Atk. It needs Ice Beam to not be walled by Landorus-T, it needs a 252+ Life Orb boosted Earth Power to 2HKO Specially Defensive Jirachi, you can't do shit to bulky water types like Slowbro without Fusion Bolt or Atk invested Dragon Claws, you need HP Fire to OHKO Scizor from behind a Substitute. Also, all of this is assuming you have a Life Orb, which means you're taking Sandstorm damage, Life Orb recoil, SR damage upon switching and possibly Spike damage, good luck not having Roost as well.
Haxorus is a more mediocre pokemon than Kyurem-Black all around, seriously? It's like saying Keldeo is broken because it's way better than Poliwrath.
Haxorus is a more mediocre pokemon than Kyurem-Black all around, seriously? It's like saying Keldeo is broken because it's way better than Poliwrath.
I was just using Haxorus as an example to prove that ANY pokemon can be scary to a stall team if you let them set up like an idiot. Garchomp, Haxorus, Salamence, pick one.
Also I'm getting real tired of your M-MUH STALL TEAM argument. Hooray, he counters stall teams. Stall teams aren't exactly fun to play against either, and a LOT of other offensive, faster pokemon can straight-up crap on Kyurem-B before he can even do anything, bulky or not.
Also I'm getting real tired of your M-MUH STALL TEAM argument. Hooray, he counters stall teams. Stall teams aren't exactly fun to play against either, and a LOT of other offensive, faster pokemon can straight-up crap on Kyurem-B before he can even do anything, bulky or not.
My point of stating that it has all the moves it needs, and different sets have different counters is not to imply that it can do all of them at once, but you have a chance of losing a pokemon for free if you guess the set wrong. Guessing the set might not always come into play, but it has the ability to beat nearly all its counters with the right set.
In the case of using Haxorus as a comparison was merely a response to the previous poster's use of him in an attempt to show Kyube's apparent comparability to a mediocre pokemon.
The difference that I was trying to expound upon is that Kyurem doesn't need to set up much, he just gets a free sub on a multitude of pokemon, and proceeds to 2HKO most of the tier with ease. With a boosting set, Garchomp and Haxorus both fail to 2HKO, for example, Skarmory. The major difference is, again, Kyube's ease in setting up, and the lack of need to continuously set up (only one turn), making it more difficult to revenge or phaze.
Funness of playing against some playstyle should not be a factor in this argument, as it is completely irrelevant and rather unfortunately subjective. The point of my saying it crushes stall teams is that it unfairly punishes you for playing specifically that way, discouraging diversity, and promoting offensive playtyles. Although a lot of offensive pokemon can, indeed, easily beat Kyube, he can still set up on common threats, such as Rotom-W, Celebi, and more. He does struggle against, HO, though. But once he gets a free turn, something is going down.
Kyurem-B's existence in OU does NOT discourage diversity at all. Maybe if every OU team ran Kyurem-B, maybe then you'd have an argument there, but I almost never see the guy.
The REAL thing that discourages OU diversity is weather teams. If you're trying to argue for no Kyurem because of diversity, then let's ban all weather too. Let's ban Scizor, because god knows how much you see him.
Not trying to turn the hate towards weather, but if your argument is KYUREM DISCOURAGES DIVERSITY, there's about 100 things that should be dealt with first if you REALLY want diversity.
The REAL thing that discourages OU diversity is weather teams. If you're trying to argue for no Kyurem because of diversity, then let's ban all weather too. Let's ban Scizor, because god knows how much you see him.
Not trying to turn the hate towards weather, but if your argument is KYUREM DISCOURAGES DIVERSITY, there's about 100 things that should be dealt with first if you REALLY want diversity.
The usage of Kyube does not influence the fact that is runs through a specific playstyle, while not posing a threat to others. That is practically the definition of discouraging diversity.
The main difference between weather and Kyube in context of this discussion is that you can deal with weather on, say, a sand stall team by just using a pokemon such as Jellicent or Amoonguss, but on that same team, to deal with Kyube, you have to basically run either Chansey or Cresselia, both of which are not viable choices on a sand stall team. In a nutshell, you can run one pokemon (such as Amoonguss) to deal with most rain teams (as long as you have your own weather, be it manual or not, but that's another topic), but there are pretty much only 2 pokemon that can deal with Kyubes (and the counters shift around, depending on whether it is banded or sub+3 attacks). At the same time, even if you get a free move off on it, most common defensive pokemon will not be able to do too much damage to it. It's weakness to hazards are annoying, but it can easily pressure teams before they can start stacking.
Pokemon such as Scizor do not punish playstyles. Kyube does. Weather is weird, but it won't be banned, according to the leaders (conspiracy alert), but that isn't relevant to the discussion anyways.
Except usage DOES help determine whether or not it should be banned for "discouraging diversity". Back in Gen IV, Garchomp was banned off to Ubers because EVERY TEAM CARRIED HIM. It got to a point where you required a Garchomp counter on every team just to stop him from destroying.
That's not the case with Kyurem-B. He isn't on every team, and you can take him down without needing specific counters. I've seen stall teams beat Kyurem-B, and I've also seen offense teams lose to him. The issue is NOT as black and white as you're trying to say it is.
Gonna bring back Weather as an example to your complaints here. Should Politoed be banned because his ability counters Fire types? "BUT WAIT" you say "YOU SHOULD JUST BRING A SUN TEAM AS A COUNTER".
No. It doesn't always work that way. Maybe you have a fire type on a non-sun team, and rain just shat on him? So what? Do you want Sand banned too because it counters sash? Too bad.
Banning something JUST because it works against (and mostly ONLY against) a certain teamcomp is NOT a very good reason, especially when it's so easy for everyone else to deal with him, and no amount of MUH STALL TEAM whining can change that.
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Just a small nitpick, but
252+ SpA Life Orb Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 153-183 (43.46 - 51.98%) -- 17.58% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 342-404 (87.46 - 103.32%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Jirachi: 192-229 (47.52 - 56.68%) -- 88.28% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 192-228 (49.1 - 58.31%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 159-187 (46.35 - 54.51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 360-426 (92.07 - 108.95%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
The standard mixed attacker does pack a bunch, but it often isn't enough. While Kyurem-B can 2HKO a Ferrothorn, that chance is so incredibly small that after protect and leftovers it all but disappears, while Ferrothorn can OHKO with Gyro Ball. Specially defensive Jirachi can take any one hit fairly comfortably and 2HKO with Iron Head, which with a 60% chance of flinching gives Jirachi a mildly better than average chance of switching in and still beating it. Same thing goes with Scizor.
This shouldn't be taken as me saying that Kyurem-B is bad, just that the cult of personality it seems to have developed as a result of its enormous base stats can be a little overzealous at times. When considering the general difficulty in keeping rocks off of the field if an opponent knows what he is doing, being able to chunk 40%-50% of any pokemon's HP is not always as good as it sounds, considering it will come at the cost of 25%-35% of your Kyurem's HP. Afterall, if being able to guarantee a kill on a single pokemon before dying was something that makes a pokemon uber, then Wobbuffet wouldn't be sitting in the tier it is now.
Also, usage statistics. Even in 1850 and above Kyurem-B is sitting fairly low down on the ladder, despite the apparent level of brokenness many people claim. I am sure only 2000 and above statistics were looked at Kyurem-B's usage stats wouldn't be significantly better, either. In a game where Kyurem is often killed as easily as he takes kills, I don't think the question of whether it is broken or not can only be answered with 'eeeeeh'.
That's called scouting, not "guessing the set". You should scout against every pokemon with access to a move that can potentially hit a check/counter, not just Kyurem-Black.
Strykeypoo Some Kyurems run HP Fire, so "eeeeeeh" But yeah, SpD Rachi is a decent answer to it. iirc, it gets 2HKOd by banded set, so that's a bit annoying.
Prosecutor Godot Unless it comes out against a pokemon with protect, if the user does it right, it can be a big nuisance the first turn. You're right, though, but it can still 2HKO nearly everything with just the Specially based mixed set, and it won't always reveal whether or not it has HP fire before it gets your ferrothorn.
Vyro Most of your post is irrelevant, as the topic is Kyurem-B (as suggested by the title of this thread). Weather just forces you to have a weather move/inducer of your own on your team. Honestly, weatherless stall is just sand stall without sand.
Garchomp is a different case, it was banned (and used so much) because it was so good in general. Kyurem-B is, in my opinion, harming a playstyle unfairly.
I disagree, it IS a good reason, as it completely murders stall with no effort, pretty much. My point is, although it doesn't preform at its best against offense, its ability to destroy a playstyle is what makes it broken IMO.
Prosecutor Godot Unless it comes out against a pokemon with protect, if the user does it right, it can be a big nuisance the first turn. You're right, though, but it can still 2HKO nearly everything with just the Specially based mixed set, and it won't always reveal whether or not it has HP fire before it gets your ferrothorn.
Vyro Most of your post is irrelevant, as the topic is Kyurem-B (as suggested by the title of this thread). Weather just forces you to have a weather move/inducer of your own on your team. Honestly, weatherless stall is just sand stall without sand.
Garchomp is a different case, it was banned (and used so much) because it was so good in general. Kyurem-B is, in my opinion, harming a playstyle unfairly.
I disagree, it IS a good reason, as it completely murders stall with no effort, pretty much. My point is, although it doesn't preform at its best against offense, its ability to destroy a playstyle is what makes it broken IMO.
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