STAB Updates

Status
Not open for further replies.
So yes, let us not derail this and turn this into a mini buff culture thread.

I'm going to be more limited with the commands, and I'm scrapping Hone and Phase because there's just no logic to them. If game testers find out the immunity extends to partial trapping effects as well, it'll get adjusted.

As far as effects:

Dark's effect now also includes confusion and attract. Basically if you want to use Dark Moves from your Dark type, only full paralysis, sleep, or freeze is going to stop you. Considering Dark has some of the nastiest effects around like Taunt, Torment, and moves like Sucker Punch and Pursuit, this is a pretty good buff.

Dragon's effect arose out of the fact that so many Dragons have dual-types that nullify one or more of Dragon's resistances. Since Dragons are so diverse in the ways they attack and defend, this small defensive boost is relevant to a large number of them without being overpowered. The only flavor Dragon has ever really had is "OHMEGURD POWAFUL."

To clarify Ground's effect, basically unless you are battling in the sky, ANY kind of field where there is actually Ground allows Ground types to use Dig and EQ, on the basis they will have enough knowledge not to bring entire buildings collapsing down on themselves by applying the force into the ground in exactly the right way. Obviously if you are battling in mid-air, you cannot "Earthquake" it.

I'm moving forward with six command-based buffs, since these seem to be the most sensible way to balance these types, as follows:

Bug:
Swarm Command: For the next (3) actions, oncoming super-effective attacks against this Pokemon will have their Base Attack Power reduced by (1) BAP. EC: 5, CT: None

Fire:
Brighten Command: For the next (3) actions, this Pokemon's attacks with have their base accuracy increased by a flat 10 points (e.g. Fire Blast goes from 85 to 95 Accuracy). EC: 5, CT: None

Grass:
Bloom Command: For the next (3) actions, this Pokemon's non-damaging Grass-type and Poison-type attacks will have the base accuracy increased by a flat 25 points (e.g. Stun Spore goes from 75 to 100 Accuracy). EC: 5, CT: None

Ice:
Frost Command: For the next (6) actions, this Pokemon's Ice moves will have triple the freeze chance. EC: 5, CT: None

Poison:
Store Command: For the next (6) actions, this Pokemon's moves will have their poison / toxic effect chance double. EC: 5, CT: None

Rock:
Stillness Command: For the next (3) actions, oncoming attacks against this Pokemon will have their base accuracy reduced by 25 points if this Pokemon is -Spe, 10 points if this Pokemon has a neutral speed nature, and 5 points if this Pokemon has a +Spe nature. EC: 5, CT: None

These six types were selected because they will either be harmed in the transition to Gen 6, they have serious weaknesses with few key resistances, and their flavor allows for such a command to seem plausible on its intended beneficiaries. Rock for example has a lot of slow Pokemon that often run -Spe. Stillness flips that around into an advantage by making a Rock-type blending into the background more difficult to hit rather than less. Stillness and Rock Polish will have very interesting interactions. Bloom is a major boon for the slow grass types, but even the faster Grass Pokemon will now have a somewhat viable Grasswhistle.
 
Deck, between auto-crit poison sting, bug's STAB description, certain combo techs, rare candy, auto-crit focus energy, and now your proposed type commands, at what point will Beedrill have had enough buffs?
 
Deck Knight said:
Rock:
Stillness Command: For the next (3) actions, oncoming attacks against this Pokemon will have their base accuracy reduced by 25 points if this Pokemon is -Spe, 10 points if this Pokemon has a neutral speed nature, and 5 points if this Pokemon has a +Spe nature. EC: 5, CT: None
Click to expand...

I thought after the changes to Illuminate and Forewarn that we pretty much agreed that evasion-boosting and accuracy-reducing effects should be kept to a minimum.

Also, applying Bug's extra hit on multi-hit moves to 2-hit moves ... I don't think you understand what kind of power boost that is. Scyther and Scizor effectively gain +5 BAP to a single move. That's too much simply for being the right type, considering those two are actually already good in their own right.
 
Last edited:
Objection said:
I thought after the changes to Illuminate and Forewarn that we pretty much agreed that evasion-boosting and accuracy-reducing effects should be kept to a minimum.

Also, applying Bug's extra hit on multi-hit moves to 2-hit moves ... I don't think you understand what kind of power boost that is. Scyther and Scizor effectively gain +5 BAP to a single move. That's too much simply for being the right type, considering those two are actually already good in their own right.
Click to expand...

I can always modify it down to Twineedle, which is really the focus of it. Double Hit is downright nasty in combos.

As far as Stillness, I could modify it to a kind of BAP reduction, but the flavor is basically blending into the background, the effect is very temporary, and about 90% of the moves aimed at Rock types start with 100 Accuracy anyway, and most attackers will nullify the evasive boost if they are +Spe.
 
Deck Knight said:
I can always modify it down to Twineedle, which is really the focus of it. Double Hit is downright nasty in combos.
Click to expand...

By that point it seems oddly specific, and I refer you to Pwnemon's post above my previous one.

Deck Knight said:
As far as Stillness, I could modify it to a kind of BAP reduction, but the flavor is basically blending into the background, the effect is very temporary, and about 90% of the moves aimed at Rock types start with 100 Accuracy anyway, and most attackers will nullify the evasive boost if they are +Spe.
Click to expand...

If the idea is that, by staying still, they blend into the background, then perhaps it should only persist as long as the Pokemon uses stuff like Rest and Chill and other defensive manoeuvres that don't involve any real movement, and even then with a maximum duration of 2 or 3 actions.
 
Deck Knight said:
I can always modify it down to Twineedle, which is really the focus of it. Double Hit is downright nasty in combos.
Click to expand...
Just only apply the increase in hits to multi-hit moves (Those that hit up to five times), like it has always been. Besides, when a Jolly Rare Candy Beedrill dealing 25 Damage to neutral R3 Defence targets per Twineedle after using Focus Energy ((3×3)+1+3+(3×3)+3=25), something is wrong, especially when it can wipe a 25 HP Substitute in one go, with possible pierce damage to boot! And it only costs 3 Energy as well!

EDIT: Tangential, but that is Dragon Scale Kingdra-esque levels when it sets up & uses Draco Meteor, but Kingdra uses up far more EN, it cannot pierce subs, & it has to deal with largely reduced SpA levels once it ends & does not either set up again or switch out, lol.
 
Last edited:
Aside from all of this discussion, in about 8 days time we are going to have a massive change to this game. A new type, new type chart, new Pokemon, new moves, new abilities , possibly new items and who even knows what else. Is this really the time to look at wholesale changes to how things work? If anything we need to be refraining from change until we fully understand the changes and balance issues within the new generation.
 
If anything I think now is the perfect time to get this particular change hammered out. I don't think massive sweeping changes are necessary but getting STAB descriptions to a point where they reflect our game and not one of two years ago is very important to realize before they get lost in the commotion of Gen 6. Personally I'd like to see a minimalist approach with Deck's initial list of updates adopted (with discussion on arena restriction removals) in order to get our STAB descriptions to a functional place for Gen 6.

edit: also we're glad to have you back deadfox
 
Gerard said:
  • Ice STAB; Immune to freezing and Sheer Cold. Increases the Defense of the Pokemon by half of its current ranks during Hailstorm, rounded up. Perfectly accurate and 30% Protect breaking Blizzard in Hail (Blizzard's description should be updated since this is already in the actual description)
Click to expand...
 
I strongly agree with deadfox081.

We don't know what kind of mons Gen 6 will introduce. They may as well have mons that completely change our view of certain types (ex: if we get like 4 more stratagem-like pokemon, rock won't be the same thing). New moves may be introduced and old moves may be adjusted in a way that makes said descriptions moot or overpowered or unfitting (ex: still in the rock business, if Stone Edge and Rock Slide get their accuracy bumped, there goes the notion of rock being unreliable...on a similar note if Dark/Ghost finally get their 90+BP moves, then we may have to rethink buffs to them).

Also, we will have a new typing on the block and it doesn't seem that GameFreak will treat it as "just another typing". By the looks of it, it is probable that some fairy mons will be pretty game-changing. And Fairy is made to completely rehaul the way we think types, since it is strong against some of our "good types" defensively (Dragon) and weak against some of considered "weak" types offensively (Steel and Poison), making all more unreliable any kind of decision done now.

we can discuss all we want, but when Gen 6 comes out, I have 99% sure that most stuff will have to change if we want anything close to "balance". Hell, we will probably need some time to get used to the new type charts and new mons to get this running in a more stable and reliable manner.

There is no use in cleaning up 5th Gen for the 8 days we still have of it if we will have to change stuff again with 6th Gen.
 
I'm all for a rehaul of STABs to give niche benefits once Gen 6 is upon us. There's no harm in shooting the breeze before then--stimulating ideas are always welcome--but we can't pretend like we can do anything concrete about them any time soon.

Tangent:
I do, however, feel that Gyms should not just be able to turn certain types "off," so I find Water, Grass, and Rock STAB very interesting. It strikes me as silly and pointless. What, you're scared of Surf but not Scald, Hydro Pump, or Brine? Scared of Stone Edge, but some how Rock Blast or Paleo Wave doesn't threaten you?

If I banned Close Combat, I'd be laughed out of leadership. On the flip side, Texas Cloverleaf has a gym where he has literally no options for mitigating type weaknesses and must rely on Arena-based mitigation (this may change in Gen 6, but serves as useful illustration at the moment). What I mean is, which Gyms should get to lack natural rocks? Should these Gyms be beholden to STAB users of the move? Texas has nothing to fear from STAB Ice or Dragon moves in most circumstances, so his arena specifically targets non-STAB users. For which types are "external source" moves crippling weaknesses, and for which are they the type's balancing factor?

Food for thought, at any rate.
 
I think it is a good idea to consider how good we generally want these STABs to be. I would say that, overall, they should be weaker than abilities and unique bonuses granted by moves.

Stone Edge doesn't require an external rock source. Rock Slide does though.
 
Yeah, I think every one should provide a little niche to some Pokemon (e. Crustle's Rock Blast or Hydreigon's Outrage), also, you're calling me up on trying to boost psyquics even further when you're asking a fighting boost when fighting pretty much has the same boost as psychics but with a larger variety of moves (psychic's 1 vs fighting's 6), I was thinking something like confusion resistance (like the one dark has) would have been a fine niche when using support moves or psychic moves or something, I've been in favor of giving the bigger boosts to the underused typings from the start which is why I tried giving better boosts to types such as grass and ice when I initially suggested the list I proposed
 
Uh guys, the inclusion of Fairy STAB in my list with the effect TBD (because I don't know what Fairy looks like overall, what their attacks do in the aggregate, etc.) should have been a clue this is a 6th Gen Preparation thread, and none of this is going to apply to 5th Gen battles. None of this is sweeping Word of God for ongoing battles, in other words.

I also don't think it's going to fundamentally alter a type because the biggest changes so far seem to be Mega Pokemon, and while I've seen some truly absurd stuff like Mega Abomasnow getting stats jacked to, ironically, greater than Rare Candy levels, the introduction of a few new Pokemon is not going to change 5 Generations of momentum. The majority of Rock types are still going to be so slow that running a -Spe nature is attractive, Grass types are still going to have inaccurate as hell status attacks, etc. Granted this could change, but we're already getting leaks and many things have already been confirmed.
 
So I'm going to give a run-down of Fairy Pokemon here, and as soon as I get more info I'll try and determine Fairy STAB:

Fairy Pokemon:

Cleffa-Clefable - Pure Fairy
Igglybuff-Wigglytuff - Normal / Fairy
Mime Jr. / Mr. Mime - Psychic / Fairy
Sylveon - Pure Fairy
Togepi - Pure Fairy
Togetic / Togekiss - Fairy / Flying
Azurill - Normal / Fairy
Marill / Azumarill - Water / Fairy
Snubbull / Granbull - Pure Fairy
Ralts-Gardevoir - Psychic / Fairy
Mawile - Steel / Fairy
Whimsicott - Grass / Fairy
Flabebe-Florges - Pure Fairy
Spritzee-Aromatisse - Pure Fairy
Swirlix-Slurpuff - Pure Fairy
Dedenne - Electric / Fairy
Carbink - Rock / Fairy
Klefki - Steel / Fairy
Xerneas - Pure Fairy

Fairy Moves (WIP):

Retconned: Charm, Moonlight, Sweet Kiss

Physical:
Play Rough | Fairy | Physical | 90 | 90 | 10 | May Lower opponent's Attack stat.

Special:
Dazzling Gleam | Fairy | Special | 80 | 100 | 10 | The user damages opposing Pokémon by emitting a powerful flash.
Disarming Voice | Fairy | Special | 40 | -- | 15 | Never misses. Hits all opponents.
Draining Kiss | Fairy | Special | 50 | 100 | 20 | Drains over 50% of the HP from the target.
Fairy Wind | Fairy | Special | 40 | 100 | 30 | The user stirs up a fairy wind and strikes the target with it.
Moonblast | Fairy | Special | 95 | 100 | 15 | Borrowing the power of the moon, the user attacks the target. This may also lower the target's Sp. Atk stat.

Status:
Aromatic Mist | Fairy | Status | -- | 100 | 20 | Raises the SpD stat of an ally.
Baby-Doll Eyes | Fairy | Status | -- | 100 | 30 | The user stares at the target with its baby-doll eyes, which lowers its Attack stat. This move always goes first.
Crafty Shield | Fairy | Status | -- | -- | 10 | The user protects itself and allies from status attacks. Does not block damaging attacks.
Fairy Lock | Fairy | Status | -- | -- | 10 | Locks down the battle field, preventing all Pokemon from switching next turn.
Flower Shield | Fairy | Status | -- | -- | 10 | The user raises the Defense stat of all Grass-types in battle.
Geomancy | Fairy | Status | -- | --| 10 | On the first turn the Pokemon absorbs energy. On the second turn its Special Attack, Special Defense, and Speed sharply increase.
Misty Terrain | Fairy | Status | -- | -- | 10 | Grounded Pokemon are protected from status conditions for the next 5 turns.
 
Last edited:
Ooooh good, there is a decent Physical Fairy STAB. Azumaril here I come! Also omg Granbull is viable! And I need to train my Togepi! Stupid new generation...
 
Big Update:

After playing a bit and seeing some of the research come in, I've made a few updates.

Fairy STAB gives an EN reduction primarily to support moves based around sound and scent.

Rock STAB now has a limited Prankster-like effect on defense / SpD and protection moves.

Fire, Ice, and Poison have their own type exclusive commands given that unlike most other types their support moves are shallow (contrast electric which has absurd support and grass which already had some and got more). Brighten benefits primarily the slow fire types, Frost gives Ice types a legitimate chance at freezing foes, especially with a super-concentrated ice move (Ice Beam + Ice Beam has 60% Freeze chance). Store gives Poison types a better chance to poison or toxic foes than normal.

Most of the other types are unaffected, and have had superfluous language extracted from the STAB description.

Bug: Bug STAB; Adds an additional guaranteed attack on all multi-hit moves (does not include two hit moves) with a total hit cap of five (5).
Dark: Dark STAB; ignores Attract and Confusion status entirely when using Dark-type attacks.
Dragon: Dragon STAB; -1 BAP on incoming neutral attacks Dragon itself would resist (e.g. -1 BAP on Aqua Jet against Garchomp.) Unable to have Thrash or Outrage disrupted by oncoming damage.
Electric: Electric STAB; immune to paralysis status.
Fairy: Fairy STAB: -1 EN on non-Fairy typed Nature, Sound, and Scent moves (Stacks with second STAB where applicable). (Nature Power, Natural Gift; Sound Moves; Aromatherapy, Odor Sleuth, Sweet Scent)
Fighting: Fighting STAB; ignore weight restrictions on Circle Throw, Seismic Toss, Sky Drop, Storm Throw, Submission, and Vital Throw.
Fire: Fire STAB; immune to burn status. Brighten Command.
Flying: Flying STAB; immunity to Ground attacks and the Arena Trap Ability except under the effects of Smack Down and Gravity, even for ground-based flying Pokemon. Will always hit foes with Dig (except other Flying types) and Dive. Cannot be hit by Dive unless the attacking Pokemon has a size class greater than four (4). Unaffected by Spikes or Toxic Spikes. when switching in. Able to hit Pokemon in the evasive stage of Bounce, Fly or Sky Drop with single target moves that hit Pokemon on the field regardless of position.
Ghost: Ghost STAB; immune to the effects of full trapping moves and the Shadow Tag ability.
Grass: Grass STAB; immunity to Leech Seed, Worry Seed, and all "Powder" based attacks (Poisonpowder, Powder, Rage Powder, Sleep Powder, Spore, Stun Spore). Unable to have Petal Dance disrupted by oncoming damage. Ignores Arena restrictions on Grass attacks requiring an external grass source.
Ground: Ground STAB; immune to Sandstorm. Ignores Arena restrictions on Dig and Seismic Attacks for Arenas in which any land mass exists, Evasive Digging reduced from 6 per action Energy Cost to 5 per action.
Ice: Ice STAB; immune to Hail damage, freeze status, and Sheer Cold. Frost Command.
Normal: Normal STAB; +1 BAP on attacks that match dominant arena type after 3 actions. Unable to have Thrash or Outrage disrupted by oncoming damage.
Poison: Poison STAB; immunity to Poison/Toxic status. Absorb Toxic Spikes on switch-in unless Flying-typed or using the ability Levitate. Ignore Fog's accuracy reduction. Store Command.
Psychic: Psychic STAB; can lift and throw opponents with Psychic regardless of Special Attack Rank. Psychic-type attacks are not godlike and cannot be used as a catchall for Disabling, Binding, and redirecting opposing attacks.
Rock: Rock STAB; Adds an additional level of Priority (+0 to +1, +3 to +4 etc.) on naturally occurring level-up, egg, tutor, or TM attacks that increase only defense, special defense, or prevent damage (Full list: Acid Armor, Amnesia, Barrier, Defense Curl, Detect, Fast Guard, Harden, Iron Defense, Light Screen, Protect, Reflect, Skull Bash, Wide Guard, Withdraw). Reduced damage from all special attacks by two (2) Base Attack Power during Sandstorm, immune to Sandstorm damage. Ignores Arena restrictions on Rock attacks requiring an external rock source.
Steel: Steel STAB; immune to Sandstorm damage, immune to Poison/Toxic status, but can be corroded specifically by Acid and Acid Spray, making them susceptible to Poison-type attacks.
Water: Water STAB; Ignores arena restrictions on Water attacks that require an external water source. Evasive Diving reduced from 6 per action Energy Cost to 5 per action.

Referenced Commands:

Fire: STAB:
Brighten Command: For the next six (6) actions, all this Pokemon's attacks with have their accuracy increased by one stage. Type Exclusive commands can only be used by Pokemon that are naturally that type, and are still available if the Pokemon changes type.

Command Type: Type Exclusive | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 5 | Priority: 0 | CT: None

Ice STAB:
Frost Command: For the next six (6) actions, this Pokemon's Ice moves will have triple the freeze chance. Type Exclusive commands can only be used by Pokemon that are naturally that type, and are still available if the Pokemon changes type.

Command Type: Type Exclusive | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 5 | Priority: 0 | CT: None

Poison STAB:
Store Command: For the next six (6) actions, this Pokemon's moves will have their poison / toxic effect chance double. Type Exclusive commands can only be used by Pokemon that are naturally that type, and are still available if the Pokemon changes type.

Command Type: Type Exclusive | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 5 | Priority: 0 | CT: None
 
Last edited:
Just a small suggestion:

Ghost: Ghost STAB; immune to the effects of full trapping moves and the Arena Trap and Shadow Tag abilities.
 
do we really need to be implementing new shit when we don't know how gen vi is going to affect game balance, deck?

also, grass's support movepool is pretty weak at best in most cases—you want a good one, look at DARK
 
Pwnemon said:
do we really need to be implementing new shit when we don't know how gen vi is going to affect game balance, deck?

also, grass's support movepool is pretty weak at best in most cases—you want a good one, look at DARK
Click to expand...

Almost to the Pokemon, every Grass type has Growth (which can actually use both boosts at once thanks to combos), some form of sun-based healing, draining attacks (often including Leech Seed), a plethora of status moves (which admittedly just got nerfed with some new items and new Grass STAB), Light Screen, and then there's the new stuff like Grassy Terrain, Rototiller, Flower Veil etc. When it comes to actual support moves inherently attached to Pokemon of that type, Grass is one of the better ones. I think only Electric has more crazy stuff now between Charge, Magnet Rise, and all those zany new Elec support moves.
 
Eh, I don't think giving a No Guard effect in STAB is that good an idea. It works for Flying because it is limited to a particular form of evasive action and is still subject to other evasive manoeuvres. Maybe Poison-types that inflict toxic poison on a Pokemon cause it to start at 2 DPA instead of 1?
 
That's an In-game buff, look into the research tread, I didn't make it up myself, several people have reported it and even an NPC says so
 
It still seems overly powerful. Perhaps STAB users of Toxic will bypass the accuracy check, but it can still miss due to Dive, Dig, etc. (a la Aerial Ace, Swift, and other "never-miss moves)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top