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Pokémon Gourgeist

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escarlata said:
This thing makes a good spinblocker because the smaller sized one is one of the few spinblockers that can potentially beat most spinners slower than Tentacruel one-on-one thanks to unspinnable leech seed, Phantom Force to pass turns, and the movepool to 2HKO most common spinners/spikers.

Gourgeist-Small@ Leftovers
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP/208 SDef (or Def)/48 Spd
Calm/Bold
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Fire Blast
- Ghost/Grass STAB or WoW /Disable

Small sized ironically has the best bulk if it needs to reach the specific speed tier. Fully invested in HP give 314 HP for maximum mix bulk. 50 Spd EVs gives 246 Spd Gourgeist to outspeed and outstall 32 Spd Jirachi and essentially all spinners bar Excadril and Starmie. An -Atk reducing nature is used because it allows it to OHKO Forretress and 2HKO Skarmory 100% of the time after SR with Fire Blast. The rest of the EVs are put either into Def or SDef with a positive nature, giving 365/186 or 280/261 bulk which is still surprisingly bulky when faced with spinners. Alternatively those EVs can be put into SAtk for more damage on Fire Blast, though may not be worth the investment.
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Excellent post! I'm glad someone finally pointed out the benefits of the smaller Gourgeist forms :) Your post was very well thought-out, but of curiosity, what base stats were you assuming for all of these calculations? We didn't have exact stats for the small form yet (but I'm updating the OP with the new info from serebii). Also, your Fire Blast calcs seem a bit high so you might not have factored in the power nerf down to 110.

Aside from those bits, I was already going to add a set similar to this so great job on analyzing the matchups! Subseed small Gourgeist looks to be quite the pain to deal with.
 
Ok maybe this is silly but a gimmick strategy of using Trick-or-Treat + Shadow Sneak maybe can catch someone off guard on the switch, and Gourgeist has a decent base attack...but yeah it's just an idea...
 
I think an important point to mention is that with Insomnia, we have THE best Breloom counter there is. Immune to the fighting stab and 4x resistant to Grass stab, while not weak to common coverage move Stone Edge, Breloom can't touch it. To which Gourgiest sets up, sub if defensive or Flame Charge if offensive.
 
Brammi said:
I think an important point to mention is that with Insomnia, we have THE best Breloom counter there is. Immune to the fighting stab and 4x resistant to Grass stab, while not weak to common coverage move Stone Edge, Breloom can't touch it. To which Gourgiest sets up, sub if defensive or Flame Charge if offensive.
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The new mechanics pretty much made all grass types immune to spore so his ability is quite moot in dealing with Breloom's spore.
 
Brammi said:
I think an important point to mention is that with Insomnia, we have THE best Breloom counter there is. Immune to the fighting stab and 4x resistant to Grass stab, while not weak to common coverage move Stone Edge, Breloom can't touch it. To which Gourgiest sets up, sub if defensive or Flame Charge if offensive.
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Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't Grass type naturally immune to powder moves and Spore now? In other words, by its typing alone it is a fantastic Breloom counter. Frisk would probably be a more useful general ability.
 
Machi said:
The new mechanics pretty much made all grass types immune to spore so his ability is quite moot in dealing with Breloom's spore.
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In general, though, aside from Celebi it is definitely the best Breloom counter around, and unlike Celebi it doesn't fail miserably against Blissey (it won't kill, but Blissey can't do anything back that lasts)
 
Shroomisaur said:
Excellent post! I'm glad someone finally pointed out the benefits of the smaller Gourgeist forms :) Your post was very well thought-out, but of curiosity, what base stats were you assuming for all of these calculations? We didn't have exact stats for the small form yet (but I'm updating the OP with the new info from serebii). Also, your Fire Blast calcs seem a bit high so you might not have factored in the power nerf down to 110.

Aside from those bits, I was already going to add a set similar to this so great job on analyzing the matchups! Subseed small Gourgeist looks to be quite the pain to deal with.
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if serebii is right in his stats, small form has a spread of 55/85/122/58/75/99
oh right didnt factor in the fire blast nerf, so might invest some SAtk EVs to get some 2HKOS
 
escarlata said:
if serebii is right in his stats, small form has a spread of 55/85/122/58/75/99
oh right didnt factor in the fire blast nerf, so might invest some SAtk EVs to get some 2HKOS
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At the time of that post, I hadn't yet seen Serebii's numbers for the small form, sorry about that! I've already updated the OP with those numbers, and also added a set based on the small-form subseeder, so thanks for posting your thoughts. I also have the corrected Fire Blast calcs in the OP now.

Brammi said:
Cmpletely forgot about the grass buff.
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Yes, this is why I don't even have Insomnia as a slash on any of the sets. The most common sleep-inducing moves are Sleep Powder and Spore, and Gourgeist is already immune to those... Gamefreak really wanted to troll poor Gourgeist. Revealing your opponents' hand with Frisk is always the better option.
 
You may want to mention how good Gourgeist - Small does his job of spin-blocking (arguably the fastest defensive spinblocker), being able to take out or force out all of them minus offensive Starmie one-on-one thanks to it having an unspinnable subseed. I am currently looking into how useful Frisk can be. Too bad Frisk only works when you are switching in. Will be so much better if it were the other way round.
 
Would running flame charge on the super sized forme do anything for it? The 4th move slot seems pretty utility driven and I imagine the speed boost could be worth it when subseeding.
 
super sized forme is arguably outclassed by small ones in subseeding even with flame charge because of 4mss, either letting it become set-up bait for forretres/skarm/ferro, or pursuit bait for pursuit users depending on the 4th skill used
 
Yeah, that does make a lot of sense. I plan on using Gourgeist as a spin blocker on a sticky web based team though. I'm going to try Super size first because of that then move down in sizes if it doesn't work out.

Anyone know how breeding these things works? Luck of the draw what size the baby Pumpky Boo Boo is? Also going to try and see if mean look is an egg move from Haunter when I start breeding them.
 
GLS said:
Yeah, that does make a lot of sense. I plan on using Gourgeist as a spin blocker on a sticky web based team though. I'm going to try Super size first because of that then move down in sizes if it doesn't work out.

Anyone know how breeding these things works? Luck of the draw what size the baby Pumpky Boo Boo is? Also going to try and see if mean look is an egg move from Haunter when I start breeding them.
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Breeding Pumpkaboos is actually very straightforward, the egg is always the same size as the mother Pumpkaboo. So, breed a Super Size female, and get Super Size eggs 100% of the time. I'm glad they did that or it would have been a real pain to get the size you want!

Anyway, Small form is definitely the superior sub-seeder, there's just no question. I've tried both, and the speed advantage makes a huge difference. However, if you're not using Sub-seeding then Super Size is more viable due to the fact that 85/122/75 is quite a step above 55/122/75 defenses. It's also the better choice if you're actually interested in throwing around Seed Bomb or Shadow Sneak. As for Flame Charge though, it's very weak and would take too long to boost up. It wouldn't be worth a moveslot. You need to stick to each size's strengths - if you want speedy sub seeding, choose a smaller form!

Currently doing some of my own research into Egg moves, I'll update if I find anything.
 
escarlata said:
This thing makes a good spinblocker because the smaller sized one is one of the few spinblockers that can potentially beat most spinners slower than Tentacruel one-on-one thanks to unspinnable leech seed, Phantom Force to pass turns, and the movepool to 2HKO most common spinners/spikers.

Gourgeist-Small@ Leftovers
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP/208 SDef (or Def)/48 Spd
Calm/Bold
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Fire Blast
- Ghost/Grass STAB or WoW /Disable

Small sized ironically has the best bulk if it needs to reach the specific speed tier. Fully invested in HP give 314 HP for maximum mix bulk. 50 Spd EVs gives 246 Spd Gourgeist to outspeed and outstall 32 Spd Jirachi and essentially all spinners bar Excadril and Starmie. An -Atk reducing nature is used because it allows it to OHKO Forretress and 2HKO Skarmory 100% of the time after SR with Fire Blast. The rest of the EVs are put either into Def or SDef with a positive nature, giving 365/186 or 280/261 bulk which is still surprisingly bulky when faced with spinners. Alternatively those EVs can be put into SAtk for more damage on Fire Blast, though may not be worth the investment.
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I am just thinking... Is Trick or Treat a viable move to a sub-seeder set? Chances are once the opponent realizes they're too slow to stop the sub-seed they are likely to switch out to something more capable of destroying your sub or potentially a grass type (so as to gain immunity). What I am thinking of is that Trick or Treat can hit the switch in, once the obvious regarding sub-seed has set in, to turn the next mon into part ghost and from there Gourgeist can opt to do a quick sub-seed so as to scout or if the threat is strong switch out potentially to a dark type or strong pursuit user in order to pursuit trap the switch in worn out by hazards + leech seed.

I mean I doubt you'd be able to sub-seed a team entirely to death but with trick or treat and a good pursuit user you'd maximize the residual damage and potentially take out a threat, which is more likely to switch out if they have a leech seed on them.
 
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Machi said:
I am just thinking... Is Trick or Treat a viable move to a sub-seeder set? Chances are once the opponent realizes they're too slow to stop the sub-seed they are likely to switch out to something more capable of destroying your sub or potentially a grass type (so as to gain immunity). What I am thinking of is that Trick or Treat can hit the switch in, once the obvious regarding sub-seed has set in, to turn the next mon into part ghost and from there Gourgeist can opt to do a quick sub-seed so as to scout or if the threat is strong switch out potentially to a dark type or strong pursuit user in order to pursuit trap the switch in worn out by hazards + leech seed.

I mean I doubt you'd be able to sub-seed a team entirely to death but with trick or treat and a good pursuit user you'd maximize the residual damage and potentially take out a threat, which is more likely to switch out if they have a leech seed on them.
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The trouble with Trick or Treat is that the opponent retains their typing, and ToT simply adds Ghost on top of it. So for example if Venusaur switches in, and you hit it with ToT, Venusaur is now Grass/Poison/Ghost type. I know that seems really odd, but that's how it works! So as far as I know, any Grass-type would still be immune to your Leech Seeding attempts.

It's too bad because otherwise Trick or Treat would have an interesting niche. It still does have a cool effect of instantly making any switch-in weak to your STAB Ghost moves, but since Trollfreak didn't even give Gourgeist Shadow Claw all you have to abuse it with is Shadow Sneak. So unfortunately it's probably not worth it. It's still something to keep in mind though, I'm sure there are potential uses for it.
 
Shroomisaur said:
The trouble with Trick or Treat is that the opponent retains their typing, and ToT simply adds Ghost on top of it. So for example if Venusaur switches in, and you hit it with ToT, Venusaur is now Grass/Poison/Ghost type. I know that seems really odd, but that's how it works! So as far as I know, any Grass-type would still be immune to your Leech Seeding attempts.

It's too bad because otherwise Trick or Treat would have an interesting niche. It still does have a cool effect of instantly making any switch-in weak to your STAB Ghost moves, but since Trollfreak didn't even give Gourgeist Shadow Claw all you have to abuse it with is Shadow Sneak. So unfortunately it's probably not worth it. It's still something to keep in mind though, I'm sure there are potential uses for it.
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I wasn't thinking of making the grass types vulnerable to leech seed rather I'm looking to add a ghost type to certain switch ins to make them vulnerable to pursuit or a good strong Dark type to capitalize on the newly gained ghost typing. Couple that with hazards and chances are you're going to put a huge dent on the ToT'd mon.
 
Thanks to the infiltrator buff Crobat and Noivern are going to eat the sub seeding set for breakfast. WoW might be able to help with Crobat, but looks like Noivern is just going to hard counter it since it's a special attacker.
 
Machi said:
I wasn't thinking of making the grass types vulnerable to leech seed rather I'm looking to add a ghost type to certain switch ins to make them vulnerable to pursuit or a good strong Dark type to capitalize on the newly gained ghost typing. Couple that with hazards and chances are you're going to put a huge dent on the ToT'd mon.
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That is certainly an excellent idea! Gourgeist is already looking to be a solid member of a defensive "core", so if you support it further with a powerful Pursuiter like Tar or Scizor, it would be an excellent way to either force switches or rip holes in your opponent's team.
 
Shroomisaur said:
That is certainly an excellent idea! Gourgeist is already looking to be a solid member of a defensive "core", so if you support it further with a powerful Pursuiter like Tar or Scizor, it would be an excellent way to either force switches or rip holes in your opponent's team.
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Best part is by killing off the ToT switch is that essentially means one less mon to interfere with Gourgeist's sub-seed shenanigans, as it entails punishing the switch in altogether.

Edit: This strategy is especially punishing on Reiunculus, who shrugs off residual damage thanks to magic guard, as it essentially gives him a x4 weakness to dark type.
 
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Out of curiosity, would a Trick Room Gourgeist work well with a Malamar? These are two of my favorites from this Gen and I'd really love to make them work together without having to sacrifice Gourgeist.

(I'm new to competitive battling but have been using competitive based OU teams for about two months now.)
 
It's feasible to have a Super Size Trick Room Gourgeist, he's definitely slow and bulky enough your main problem is lack of offensive attacks to work with beyond Bullet Seed/Seed Bomb/Shadow Sneak/Rock Slide/Explosion unless he gets something good through breeding we don't know of yet. You'd have to run a more support based dedicated TR setup Gourgeist which in itself is a bit of a disadvantage and far as TR setups go he's competiting with Trevenant who has far more power.

I'm personally a bigger fan of Trick or Treat sets though for reasons stated already in that it exposes a lot of walls to a high powered Pursuit or Gourgeist's own Shadow Sneak.
 
I really like Trick or Treat.

Its one of the most trolling moves, next to Topsy-Turvy. It changes the opponent to what Gourgeist is strong against and weak against Pursuit. Not to mention the opponent will miss out STAB moves. Its better than Trevenant's move since it doesn't make the opponent immune to Spore and Leech Seed. While I suppose you do got Soak too but I think ToT does the type changes for the better.

But sadly I believe this is going to be to gimmicky for competitive standards. I don't see Gourgeist making it past NU, as much as I love it. It will have a great niche to make up for it.
 
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