Poll for our default simulator tiering level

What should our default XY tiering level be?

  • Level 50

    Votes: 247 38.6%
  • Level 100

    Votes: 393 61.4%

  • Total voters
    640
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Whether or not we decide to implement a level cap, we will still be doing normal procedures for placing things in tiers.

So, if the purported level 50 cap is implemented, and Terrakion ends up having no viable counters, then it'll go off to the next available tier. It's not like we're going to leave ridiculously overpowered things in a format just to watch them end up on every team... right?
 
I...I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make anymore.

The point is that at level 50 it has a chance to be able to beat it. Why would they switch and lose all of their momentum if they have a 50% to 2HKO on the switch with SR?

What i was saying was, at level 100 if Terrakion had a hard time against hippowdon, why would the player keep it in and not switch. Also, there have been a couple mentions of pokemon who at least SEEM like they would well against Terrakion if played well. Also, it is still only a percent chance, remember, there is always that percent change of a crit as well no matter the level.
 
Wanting to change the level cap just seems ridiculously arbitrary. Is there really any point in changing the system after multiple generations of having level 100 be the standard? Based on the existence of things like clauses, tiers, and the like, Smogon and simulators don't exist to perfectly replicate cartridge battling. Since this is the case, I don't really see a purpose in scaling everything down to level 50. Why not 80, 75, 60? There's really no point in choosing 50 besides the auto-scaling option on cartridges. Is there any sort of proof that it can wholly benefit the metagame? I don't really think so. Keep it at 100.

Also, why the hell is everyone still arguing about the Terrakion vs. Hippodown example? It was about the change in power, not the nature and existence of Terrakion's counters.
 
The main thing here is that the cartridge doesn't only allow for level 50, it just auto levels to it. People can still play level 100 battles if they want.

Were Wi-fi limited only to lv.50 auto, then I would be definitely for lv.50 being the standard, but as it stands you can battle open-level. Right now I'm leaning more to lv.100 standard based on some points made on this thread (when it's not trolling...).

I do think however, that it's good to acknowledge lv.50 6v6 for those that would like to play it, even if only with an article about "Adjusting EV Spreads for lv.50 Battles".
 
You keep avoiding the point, we're arguing that changing to level 50 causes everything to do more and that changes the game drastically, not 'Terrkaon has no counters lel'

Except that is the only one you guys keep mentioning, as if it was the ONLY/MOST important counter to Terrakion.
 
I voted 50, thinking that it made sense given that the game forces you to play at lvl 50, but the extra versatility given by playing at lvl 100 is too good to pass. Besides, we'd be actually using the fullest potential of any Pokemon by playing at 100.
 
Except that is the only one you guys keep mentioning, as if it was the ONLY/MOST important counter to Terrakion.
We keep bringing it up because you keep bringing it up. Terrakion was just an example: this is going to happen to hundreds of checks and counters across the spectrum.
 
I voted 50, thinking that it made sense given that the game forces you to play at lvl 50, but the extra versatility given by playing at lvl 100 is too good to pass. Besides, we'd be actually using the fullest potential of any Pokemon by playing at 100.

The game doesn't force you to play at level 50, though. It's just an option.
 
Can I just seriously take a moment to say this OP is quite clearly really, really biased (not blaming Aldaron since I know it's just a C+P but) and it totally fucking sucks because people will read the OP, assume it means level 100 is impossible in-game and then immediately vote. We can see quite clearly that this is occuring because several people have posted to that effect. Many people are not going to bother reading through this thread - it's getting gigantic and many of the big posts for either side are buried , and that means people are voting uninformed. That wouldn't be so bad, but the bit they are likely to read, the OP, is clearly heavily biased in favour of changing to level 50 and that is reflected in some of the replies that we're getting. People can't change their vote, so even if they later realise that they were misinformed there's nothing they can do. Honestly it's kind of getting to the point where I feel like there ought to just be a mark 2 thread on this with a clearer OP - I would happily volunteer to write it if nobody else wants to, and allow both sides to go over it before it is posted to ensure it is mostly impartial. I mean seriously there are two posts that effect just on this fucking page.
 
EDIT: Herpaderp

The argument about people not bothering to level in game (if it hasn't been resolved, didn't read everything prior) is weak. I have 3 (almost 4 + several others around ~Lv70) Lv100s without even trying just by running the Elite 4 for money.
 
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The thing is, balanced games have Mons go to lvl 50, that was what I was talking about.

Fear not guys, I agree lvl 100 is the way to go. Sorry for voting without actually reading the posts defending both sides.
 
Can I just seriously take a moment to say this OP is quite clearly really, really biased (not blaming Aldaron since I know it's just a C+P but) and it totally fucking sucks because people will read the OP, assume it means level 100 is impossible in-game and then immediately vote. We can see quite clearly that this is occuring because several people have posted to that effect. Many people are not going to bother reading through this thread - it's getting gigantic and many of the big posts for either side are buried , and that means people are voting uninformed. That wouldn't be so bad, but the bit they are likely to read, the OP, is clearly heavily biased in favour of changing to level 50 and that is reflected in some of the replies that we're getting. People can't change their vote, so even if they later realise that they were misinformed there's nothing they can do. Honestly it's kind of getting to the point where I feel like there ought to just be a mark 2 thread on this with a clearer OP - I would happily volunteer to write it if nobody else wants to, and allow both sides to go over it before it is posted to ensure it is mostly impartial. I mean seriously there are two posts that effect just on this fucking page.

I second this, even if the votes seem to be going in the direction I want them to.
 
As per Stellar:

  • . You will never find two players who legitimately leveled all six of their Pokémon to Lv100 in order to fight each other.
Except me and everyone that I actually talk to and play with do exactly that. If anything, there ought to be a search option for level 50 battles.

Based on the existence of things like clauses, tiers, and the like, Smogon and simulators don't exist to perfectly replicate cartridge battling.
I couldn't agree with this more. Good luck trying to get a random Wi Fi player to not use Double Team/Moody, etc
 
Let me get this straight, you prefer a ~5% power creep across the board, and banning more pokemon because they're then made unbalanced because of that power creep, just for the hell of it?

I really, really, really don't understand.

5% is not much.

What pokemon would be banned that would not be banned elsewhere anyway? Terrakion has already been mentioned as having counters and checks

Also, as many have already said, almost EVERYONE HERE was a cartridge game at one point who came here for help at one point or another, if the EVs are not that important then why should it matter what level it is and using level 50 helps with getting used to the numbers/stats. The Fact is DOES change also means someone who is asking for help for a normal cartridge game (who is likely fighting by using the auto-level) is not going to be as helped here as they should be considering this website says it is a Competitive pokemon website and not a "we have our completely own meta-game and half the stuff here is not going to be as useful for the stuff the cartridge players probably do"
 
PKMN1 The Terrakion vs. Hippowdon argument that you're nitpicking isn't about how Terrakion fares against Hippowdon, it's what it represents. The 3-5% power creep (I'm not exactly sure what the numbers are) makes a difference in competitive battling, and grants KOs to Pokemon that wouldn't normally be able to get them (normally referring to the level 100 precedent set over the past decade or so). Drop Terrakion vs. Hippowdon and stop arguing about little details - we're not writing the analysis for Terrakion, we're discussing the possible effects of change the default simulator tiering level. I honestly don't even understand what you're arguing about. Consistent battle mechanics versus consistency with the Nintendo format is basically what we're discussing.

Also, if possible, could we update the OP for opposing points of views, please? A post biased towards level 50 as the default made (though not written by) a prominent Smogon user is bound to affect the poll results.
 
Can I just seriously take a moment to say this OP is quite clearly really, really biased (not blaming Aldaron since I know it's just a C+P but) and it totally fucking sucks because people will read the OP, assume it means level 100 is impossible in-game and then immediately vote. We can see quite clearly that this is occuring because several people have posted to that effect. Many people are not going to bother reading through this thread - it's getting gigantic and many of the big posts for either side are buried , and that means people are voting uninformed. That wouldn't be so bad, but the bit they are likely to read, the OP, is clearly heavily biased in favour of changing to level 50 and that is reflected in some of the replies that we're getting. People can't change their vote, so even if they later realise that they were misinformed there's nothing they can do. Honestly it's kind of getting to the point where I feel like there ought to just be a mark 2 thread on this with a clearer OP - I would happily volunteer to write it if nobody else wants to, and allow both sides to go over it before it is posted to ensure it is mostly impartial. I mean seriously there are two posts that effect just on this fucking page.

The OP is a proposal. It is trying to make a case as to why we should change from what we are doing. It is trying to argue one side. Of course it seems biased to you if you disagree. But it is not trying to deceive people. Everything it says in the OP is a fact. If people choose not to inform themselves before voting that is no one's fault but their own. Besides, if you actually think the majority of the people even read the OP, you are kidding yourself. Polls like these are frankly worthless as the majority of people make reactionary votes without actually thinking about anything. This is really a debate of what philosophy we should follow, but people vote based on what meta they think they would like more, completely ignoring the actual intent of the poll.
 
Let me get this straight, you prefer a ~5% power creep across the board, and banning more pokemon because they're then made unbalanced because of that power creep, just for the hell of it?

I really, really, really don't understand.

From my (admittedly hasty) testing, it's somewhere around a 1-4% increase. And if all it takes is that minor of an increase (in the company of everything else that would also get increased) to make a pokemon overpowered, then it was likely already on the verge of being overpowered in the first place. Few people here doubt that Terrakion is a powerful pokemon it its own respect. If you sincerely believe that all it takes is a level cap change to make it overpowered, then that's all the more telling.

We're going to have tons of changes regardless. It'll be quite a while before we even know what fits in what tier, and if it's only there due to popularity or ability. Simply, we don't know enough about the entire scope of competitive mon'ing to declare things as 'Overpowered' with what we know here. Even something like Mega-Gengar, which would've immediately been cast away to Ubers in Gen V is garnering some attention as a possible OU candidate (frightening, I know).
 
5% is not much.

What pokemon would be banned that would not be banned elsewhere anyway? Terrakion has already been mentioned as having counters and checks

Also, as many have already said, almost EVERYONE HERE was a cartridge game at one point who came here for help at one point or another, if the EVs are not that important then why should it matter what level it is and using level 50 helps with getting used to the numbers/stats. The Fact is DOES change also means someone who is asking for help for a normal cartridge game (who is likely fighting by using the auto-level) is not going to be as helped here as they should be considering this website says it is a Competitive pokemon website and not a "we have our completely own meta-game and half the stuff here is not going to be as useful for the stuff the cartridge players probably do"


Oh man.

The point of Smogon is not to help cartridge players. There are places on the forum where you can get that help, no doubt, but that is not the point of Smogon in the least.

The Zapdos, Terrakion, and etc (etc, etc, etc....) arguments are there to show you that ~ (read: about) 5% is actually a really fucking huge deal.


Also, Okuu, what difference does the fact that we're in-between generations make? You're right that if we are going to make a change, now is the time, but that in and of itself is not a good reason to make a change. I've been reading literally the entire thread, and participating in the arguments the entire time, and nobody has laid out a compelling argument as to WHY WE SHOULD MAKE A CHANGE that has anything to do with Smogon. Lots of things about cartridge players, lots of things about convenience, but not a single argument about the level 50 cap making the competitive landscape better.
 
I voted for Level 50 simply to get simulators and cartridge play closer together. If the games allow auto-leveling to level 50 and ONLY level 50, you can be sure as hell nobody is leveling anything up to level 100, except for their Arceuses and Shaymin that learn moves at that level (and even then, that may have changed in XY). They'll just grind up to the level where their pokémon learns whatever moves they need and call it a day. Why bother leveling up more with an auto-level system in place?

And if cartridge play is going to be based on level 50, why should simulators be different? There's really no reason to create this artificial gap, other than "We've been playing at level 100 for over a decade". If you think that argument is valid, I suggest you go back to having Pokémon battles over Link Cables.
 
PKMN1 The Terrakion vs. Hippowdon argument that you're nitpicking isn't about how Terrakion fares against Hippowdon, it's what it represents. The 3-5% power creep (I'm not exactly sure what the numbers are) makes a difference in competitive battling, and grants KOs to Pokemon that wouldn't normally be able to get them (normally referring to the level 100 precedent set over the past decade or so). Drop Terrakion vs. Hippowdon and stop arguing about little details - we're not writing the analysis for Terrakion, we're discussing the possible effects of change the default simulator tiering level. I honestly don't even understand what you're arguing about. Consistent battle mechanics versus consistency with the Nintendo format is basically what we're discussing.

Also, if possible, could we update the OP for opposing points of views, please? A post biased towards level 50 as the default made (though not written by) a prominent Smogon user is bound to affect the poll results.

Exactly, and I believe that closer consistency with the creators of the franchise your playing and helping newbies having an easier time ease into the different meta-game is far better than not changing and new players coming in asking for help and having to ask for even MORE help then they already probably needed.

I love the one guy saying that Smogon is not here to help people competitively play the very game the Simulator is based on, I find it funny as probably everyone (except apparently him/her) even GOT TO Smogon looking for help with the wi-fi battles, battling with friends, the Battle tower spin-offs. Just because YOU do not play the game, does not mean most battlers do not.

I do agree though the OP should be changed as to not be biased (not like it matters, since the vote is 2/3 towards level 100 anyway)
 
The OP is a proposal. It is trying to make a case as to why we should change from what we are doing. It is trying to argue one side. Of course it seems biased to you if you disagree. But it is not trying to deceive people. Everything it says in the OP is a fact. If people choose not to inform themselves before voting that is no one's fault but their own. Besides, if you actually think the majority of the people even read the OP, you are kidding yourself. Polls like these are frankly worthless as the majority of people make reactionary votes without actually thinking about anything. This is really a debate of what philosophy we should follow, but people vote based on what meta they think they would like more, completely ignoring the actual intent of the poll.

To the bolded: false.

All cartridge and officially supported metagames are Lv50: As previously mentioned, all XY Wi-Fi battles will be at Lv50. You will never find two players who legitimately leveled all six of their Pokémon to Lv100 in order to fight each other. GBU and VGC already use the LV50 format; many players are already familiar with it.

These sentences risk misleading readers about a critical point about the realism of LV100 battling. After all, if LV100 multiplayer was impossible, the situation would be very different, would it not?
 
Exactly, and I believe that closer consistency with the creators of the franchise your playing and helping newbies having an easier time ease into the different meta-game is far better than not changing and new players coming in asking for help and having to ask for even MORE help then they already probably needed.

I love the one guy saying that Smogon is not here to help people competitively play the very game the Simulator is based on, I find it funny as probably everyone (except apparently him/her) even GOT TO Smogon looking for help with the wi-fi battles, battling with friends, the Battle tower spin-offs.


It is there to help players play competitively, but not to help them build better teams on the cartridge. Those are two different things. People started (including myself) playing smogon because it was a large community that played pokemon constantly, at an incredibly competitive level. It's supportive, and it teaches you a lot about that community, but I never did ANYTHING in Smogon to teach me how to play on the cartridge. I just learned about how pokemon worked intrinsically/

Just fucking use a calc, and plan your team. People on the forums will help you if you ask, but that's not what this thread is about.
 
Upstart: Smogon isn't an entity devoted to accurately emulating the game of Pokemon (to my knowledge). Rather, they're an entity that seeks to improve the state of competitive battling, and to constantly push the boundaries of what defines the strongest team, while removing aspects that hinder a competitive play style. Here, we remove the in-game aspects of breeding for IVs and move sets by immediately giving the player the option to select whatever (possible) values they desire. We automatically enable them to use Pokemon that they might not have access to, or might not even own the game of. At the same time, we delegate Pokemon into tiers and create ban lists, as that allows us to maintain a more diverse array of available, viable strategies for players to choose from and otherwise formulate on their own. We wholeheartedly support this endeavor.

However, if you don't mind me getting philosophical, then I must ask this: "Why do we play competitive Pokemon?" Is it to practice new strategies to beat your friends in real life? Is it because you find the underlying mechanics of the game to be interesting? Perhaps you aspire to compete in a real-world event and want to make sure you're up to par. Or maybe it's just the way you best enjoy playing Pokemon. You might even have your own, unique reasons for wanting to join us. These considerations have long been a part of the machinations of competitive battling, and they will continue to be so, as long as our users continue to submit their opinions.

Since the dawn of competitive battling, the Level 100 cap has been the standard. The earliest generations offered no scaling of their own, so the system-programmed cap of Level 100 made sense. In later games, all Pokemon on a team were scaled to Level 100, so that a perfectly trained Lv 34 Pikachu stood on even ground with a perfectly trained Lv 100 Pikachu. Until now, there has been no reason to change this convention. Now, the in-game level cap for a trainer battle is at a scaled 50. Meaning, a perfectly trained Lv 34 Pikachu will still stand on even ground with a perfectly trained Lv 100 Pikachu, but that ground will be a slightly different one than they might have stood upon in prior generations.

This is nothing to be fearful of. Change is to be expected with each new generation. With a loss comes a gain, and with a gain comes a loss. With a Pokemon suddenly finding itself disadvantaged by a change is a new Pokemon finding advantage in that change. The nerf to weather may very well herald the return of Drizzle + Swift Swim in competitive play. The loss of Steel's resistances to Dark / Ghost give some Pokemon a wider array of attacks to viably use, and may possibly prompt users to consider unused options instead. The weakening of some staple Special Attacks give players a more balanced choice between using a specific Pokemon as a Special Attacker / Physical Attacker / Mixed Attacker.

A potential small % increase in damage from a Level 50 cap may very well lead to certain Pokemon dying in 1/2 hits that could've taken 2/3. But that also allows Pokemon that could've killed a Pokemon in 2/3 hits to instead kill them in 1/2. This also applies to a recalculation of speed tiers. Instead of our traditional speed bases (which will likely have to be recalculated regardless), we will instead have newer ones. This isn't something that 'hinders' competitive play. Unless you are one to consider the very release of X/Y to be a hindrance. We are going to put a lot of effort into accurately emulating Pokemon battles in X/Y, so why not use that effort and do it right the first time?

I would like to begin by clearly and concisely presenting your argument. I do not completely disagree with you in fact on several points I do agree with you. I completely agree with your first paragraph as it was the argument that I present to you as a reason to avoid the level 50 cap. We are not going to emulate wifi or VGC as that has never been the goal of competitive battling. Smogon and competitive battling has predated wifi and VGC. If we are going to make perfect pokemon with their entire move pools available than why is making them level 100 such a crime? Truthfully, I could accept if we make the level cap 50, I could accept learning slightly more math to do stats, I could accept slightly different damage calculation; however I object to the reasoning for changing to the level 50 cap. Why must we now break from tradition of level 100 battles to appease the wifi community? The wifi community will never have the same metagame as we do. It takes minutes to make a Showdown team which you properly gauge its potential after 30 minutes. On the other hand the wifi community spends hours possibly days crafting a team which will take hours to test throughly. It is here that the true divide between wifi and simulator battling exists, not in the level.

I play pokemon for the same reason I alway have... to be the very best. All beginning with battling my brothers in blue version with my level 100 blastoise. Shoddy battle brought me back into Pokemon by removing the hassle of IVs and EVing. My opponent and I now granted the ability to have any pokemon with any move in its arsenal flawless with a few clicks of a keyboard. I am not sure why you posed this question to be honest.

In your final two paragraph you outline mechanic changes, which I look forward to seeing. It seems that people are confusing game mechanics with game rules. We follow the mechanics of the game such as abilities, stats, move pools. However we have always implemented our own rules. The level 50 cap is a rule and is labeled as such in the game. The level 50 rule in the game can be removed.
 
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