Other The state of entry hazards for gen 6

Status
Not open for further replies.
With the Defog buff and addition of sticky web, there is no doubt that Entry hazards will be very different. What do you think will be the biggest change?

I believe the biggest boon will fall to the fast Flying types and slower Levitators. If you have something with average Speed like Salamence or Moltres, you might want to run Sticky Web to improve it, but that's also difficult to do with Defog running around. While not having SR is probably bigger than having Sticky Web, I don't see as large an impact as they work against one another. But slow flying types are still in a better place than they were last gen.

But the main point of this topic is how useful with hazards be this gen. Is the Defog buff enough to decrease their usage, or will Defog just be a more convenient RS. I think the fact that Sticky Web exists might make actually make Defog more ubiquitous. W/o Sticky web existing, you could just build a team that's not SR weak and live without clearing hazards, but now since most Sticky Web immune pokemon are SR Weak, and vice versa, hazard clearing might be more important for nearly all teams.
 
Last edited:
People probably will stop bothering at all with (Toxic) Spikes. Several turns of setup easily being removed with an uncounterable move? Definitely not worth it. SR will be as strong as ever since it's just one turn of set-up anyway, so in the worst case, you get one switch-in worth of damage and your opponent "wastes" one turn removing your SR, meaning you're even. Also, people will go for more bulky setters instead of suicide leads.
Galvantula will also have a hard time with it's frailty and SR-weakness to set-up sticky web more than once, so chances are that sticky web won't be as dominating as some people thought.
Also, there is a decent number of levitating mons and slow, bulky SR-resists who both care about neither SR nor sticky web.
 
While this may be situational, would Gravity gain any potential usage, if Sticky Web becomes dominant enough? You can screw over the opposing Flying/Levitate Pokemon if you have Sticky Web on the field. It might not be important enough to sacrifice a move-slot for, but the option is still there.
 
People probably will stop bothering at all with (Toxic) Spikes. Several turns of setup easily being removed with an uncounterable move? Definitely not worth it. SR will be as strong as ever since it's just one turn of set-up anyway, so in the worst case, you get one switch-in worth of damage and your opponent "wastes" one turn removing your SR, meaning you're even. Also, people will go for more bulky setters instead of suicide leads.
Galvantula will also have a hard time with it's frailty and SR-weakness to set-up sticky web more than once, so chances are that sticky web won't be as dominating as some people thought.
Also, there is a decent number of levitating mons and slow, bulky SR-resists who both care about neither SR nor sticky web.
I honestly think Shuckle could be the main user of Sticky Web this time, simply because it's much harder to kill than Galvantula, Ariados, or Masquerain. The bad side to that is that we'll probably see a ton more gimmick sets now.

True there are stuff that don't care about either, but I'd imagine it's much more difficult to build a team just around those pokes. Something on your team will probably care about their speeds or losing 25%+ of their health on switch in.

What about Spikes? I don't see it disappearing completely, but being much less common. Right now I'm only using it on Showdown to break sashes because one of my team members learns it, but not SR.
 
Defog sucks.
Ok it removes hazard on your side, but it also remove the one you took time to set.
Is it really worth it ?
Residual damage are too good to ignore.
And don't get me started on the effect of sticky web.
 
Defog sucks.
Ok it removes hazard on your side, but it also remove the one you took time to set.
Is it really worth it ?
Residual damage are too good to ignore.
And don't get me started on the effect of sticky web.
I run Defog and Stealth Rock on Mew. I take out their Hazard users, Defog, then set up my own rocks. Happens in 9/10 games. GG
 
Defog sucks.
Ok it removes hazard on your side, but it also remove the one you took time to set.
Is it really worth it ?
Residual damage are too good to ignore.
And don't get me started on the effect of sticky web.
Due to the good distribution of both SR and defog, you can just run both on one pokemon.

€:Greninja'd.
 
Defog is only an option if you REALLY don't want rocks up on your side, or if you want to try the defog+rocks combo which actually is pretty cool. You don't want to pass up hazards of your own. With excadrill most likely getting unbanned we will get an unblockable spinner, which will also make it more difficult to keep rocks up.
 
Due to the good distribution of both SR and defog, you can just run both on one pokemon.

€:Greninja'd.
Defog > taunt > no rocks until you switch out or several turns.
and good you have rocks, but you don't have spikes or sticky web.
Just rocks is often not enough.
 
Defog > taunt > no rocks until you switch out or several turns.
and good you have rocks, but you don't have spikes or sticky web.
Just rocks is often not enough.
That's why I said spikes will fall in usage and sticky web won't be as good as be think it is. Also " enough" is relative, depending on the team; Stall needs many hazards for accumulating damage, HO to secure OHKOes, but bulky Offense doesn't care THAT MUCH about either.
 
As others have mentioned, Stealth Rock remains fantastic with or without Defog, and at worst you trade your opponent 1 for 1. Although the addition of Defog might make additional hazards (Spikes in particular) less appealing, it's important to remember that many teams depend on their own hazards for wearing down opponents that can't be outright KOd, and relying on Defog can force you into lose-lose situations where your hazard setter is dead, but you really need hazards off your field- either you give your opponent free switches for the rest of the game, or you continue playing as if you never had an anti-hazard move in the first place. Personally, I (and, I suspect, many others) plan to continue using Rapid Spin support for my anti-hazard needs on all but the most hazard weak (or resilient) of teams.

It's also worth remembering that the effects of Toxic Spikes do not expire after the hazard itself is cleared, and although most of the grounded Defog users are immune to poison one way or another, it's still possibly to inflict status on other members of their team so long as sufficient offensive pressure is maintained to prevent giving them a free turn. In a similar vein, Sticky Web can also prevent opposing defoggers or spinners from switching in out of fear for the prospect of taking two attacks, rather than one.

Ultimately, I don't think we'll see a huge difference in overall usage of entry hazards, although individual player may be more cautious than normal in setting them up before their opponent's movesets are scouted.
 

New World Order

Licks Toads
is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Defog is a tad overrated. A lot of teams would be much better off with a Rapid Spinner than a Defog user simply because they benefit more from their own hazards. You'd have to be high to run Defog over Rapid Spin on a hyper offence/stall/semi-stall team. I think it'll mostly be seen on teams that are built around a Pokemon that's very prone to entry hazards, where the reward outweighs the risk of losing your own hazards. see: Volcarona.
 
Defog is a tad overrated. A lot of teams would be much better off with a Rapid Spinner than a Defog user simply because they benefit more from their own hazards. You'd have to be high to run Defog over Rapid Spin on a hyper offence/stall/semi-stall team. I think it'll mostly be seen on teams that are built around a Pokemon that's very prone to entry hazards, where the reward outweighs the risk of losing your own hazards. see: Volcarona.
The thing about Defog though is that nearly any team can run it with the ubiquity of Flying types. There are only a handful of RSers, and if they don't fill any other role on your team, you are better of with Defog.

Also, I think Defog will be a good option even for teams that run hazards simply because it puts you in a better position should you not be able to get hazards up when your opponent is.
 
Everything seems quite balanced and I have no complaints. Defog has completely reasonable drawbacks. All 4 hazards are very rewarding. Many pokemon don't mind if their hazards were blown away because they can just do it again. Spikes is great to have when the opponent has Aegislash and Ferrothorn, Rocks are great to have if they have Talonflame and Dragonite, toxic spikes are great if they have Hippowdon or Jellicent. I think hazard removal being exclusive to many questionable pokemon like Tentacruel and Donphan and even Starmie was becoming a little frustrating, so, having so many different options as your spinner/fogger like Crobat and Zapdos and Scizor is a tremendous development.

I think this just means that your stealth rocker should be something like Mew or Blissey or Ferrothorn instead of something like Aerodactyl or Terrakion or Azelf.

Sticky Web is a completely different ballgame and is very balanced. Flying types avoid the web but are punished with SR vulnerability. Levitators avoid the web but typically never resist rocks and have their ability completely neutralized by Mold Breaker Haxorus, Excadrill, and MegaGyarados. Levitate is also a very specific ability that, at times, is never even utilized and does nothing for you during the match. The web is extremely rewarding for you if you can keep it up, but the pokemon that use it are not amongst the best.
 
Like people have said, it's just not worth it to run Spikes or Toxic Spikes anymore. Defog is well-distributed and can't be stopped. Even a tiny bit of Defog usage overall will render shuffle teams unreliable. Sorry, nothing is being overrated here.

Rapid Spin is an interesting case because, should shuffle teams disappear, spinblockers will be rare too, so Rapid Spin will rise in popularity eventually. It depends on how good/bad common Defog users will be in comparison, I think.
 
Stealth rocks will still define the metagame. I don't care what people say about defog, what games will boil down to is, set up rocks, defog and get rid of their rocker/defogger, then set them up again. Stall will see a drop in play as the viability of keeping up hazards all game with a ghost type is no longer a factor, but they will still work. Stall has always been the smarter mans team (this is not to say that aggro isn't smart, it's just stall takes a lot of forethought and prediction as compared to standard aggro, there is a reason people consider gen 3 the most balanced meta of all time, the ability to stall if you're smart and go aggro if you're smart) and good players will figure out stall with the hazard nerf. Trapping moves are a lot better this gen and the weather nerf helped them a lot more than it hurt them.

Sticky web is also probably going to see a huge amount of play. It's amazing, it gives you a massive advantage. Galvantula is going to jump to OU solely on sticky web's hype and smeragle is going to see a large amount of play. Spikes and Toxic spikes won't really be work it anymore, but sticky web and stealth rocks will see a ton of play. With pokemon like scizor already seeing a lot of play and having access to defog, it's really easy to see that spikes and toxic spikes will only see play in stall. People who think that rocks will no longer be THE defining factor of our meta like it has been for two generations is kidding themselves.
 
I agree. Everyone will be running Stealth Rock on something regardless. The chance of your hazards being blown away if you set them up is at least better than not running it at all and a wild Volcarona/Dragonite appears.
 
I think that the one who suffers more from defog are Spikes.
At least T-Spikes leaves their status on the pkmn who enter before the defog user. The damage done by Spikes can be recovered with Leftovers/Wish/Recover/etc and you use three turns to set up all, when, actually, you only leave a layer of T-Spikes just for doing passive damage.

Also i found ironic that most of the defog user are Flying-Type since they're one of the mst common type that hates SR lol
 
The thing about Defog though is that nearly any team can run it with the ubiquity of Flying types. There are only a handful of RSers, and if they don't fill any other role on your team, you are better of with Defog.
See, when your hazard removing pokemon is weak to SR, you've got a bit of a problem. Sure, you can run defog on things like Scizor or Latis, but those pokemon have better things to be doing.

Not to mention, if you weren't planning on running a spinblocker anyway (I know I rarely if ever did in gen V, maybe I'm just bad tough), Defog doesn't hurt you any more than Rapid Spin does; in fact, it arguably hurts even less: It gets rid of any hazards they have, and it isn't breaking sturdy or focus sash.

Defog gives more options to deal with it, which is good, but it isn't the death of Stealth Rocks. As many people have suggested though, it's probably the death of Spikes.
 
Remember, though, that even a single layer of Spikes helps... 12.5% damage on everything switching in bar Flying-types and Pokemon with Levitate is still the same as a neutral Stealth Rock, which may be helpful in a metagame where resistance to Stealth Rock is coveted. It definitely took a hit with Defog, but entry hazards in general are still very helpful.
 
See, when your hazard removing pokemon is weak to SR, you've got a bit of a problem. Sure, you can run defog on things like Scizor or Latis, but those pokemon have better things to be doing.

Not to mention, if you weren't planning on running a spinblocker anyway (I know I rarely if ever did in gen V, maybe I'm just bad tough), Defog doesn't hurt you any more than Rapid Spin does; in fact, it arguably hurts even less: It gets rid of any hazards they have, and it isn't breaking sturdy or focus sash.

Defog gives more options to deal with it, which is good, but it isn't the death of Stealth Rocks. As many people have suggested though, it's probably the death of Spikes.
I don't agree with the notion that a pokemon has "better things to be doing" when both of those options provide an extremely valuable service to their team, and to their chances of winning the match. The very fact that people are so wary around Scizor (and rightfully so, considering it might be banded, SD+LO, mega+roost, assault vest, baton passer, or even the rare choice scarf) gives it all the more potency as a defogger, as people are unlikely to switch in a pkemon designed to get hazards back up as quickly and efficiently as possible, if said pokemon is not already their safest switch-in to a more offensively-inclined Scizor.
 
Defog is definitely a solid move and certainly helps to reduce hazards stacking, but it isn't the death of hazards. Even in gen 5, keeping up offensive pressure was always the superior anti spin measure. Even if a spin does go off that doesn't mean your hazards weren't worth it. Hazard damage racks up really quickly, and depending on the matchup it could be several turns before your opponent can get their spinner/defogger in, even then they might not have a good chance to as you might have a Pokemon in which threatens to setup or do big damage to their hazard clearer.
 

Garchompi

Banned deucer.
I actually think Defog is being underrated.
It's not true that it's a momentum killer: for example Crobat can use Defog+Hypnosis to keep pressure on the opponent. Either it puts something to sleep 80% of the time or forces a switch.
Various flying types can use with their suddenly accurate STAB Hurricane to keep offensive pressure as well.

It's also not true that a Defog user is automatically weak to SR, since Scizor, Lati@s, Skarmory and Empoleon get it as well and are solid pokemon on their own.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top