[COMPLETED] Salamence

ShootingStarmie

ShootingStarmie

Bulletproof
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[Pros]
<ul>
<li>Salamence has access to two great abilities in Moxie and Intimidate.</li>
<li>Salamence also has access to Dragon Dance.</li>
<li>Salamence has solid stats, including base 100 Speed and base 135 Attack.</li>
</ul>

[Cons]

<ul>
<li>It faces stiff competition from Dragonite and Mega Charizard X as a Dragon Dance sweeper.</li>
<li>Fairy-types are immune to Dragon-type attacks, so Salamence isn't nearly as effective as it used to be.</li>
<li>It's pretty easy to revenge kill even at +1 Speed.</li>
</ul>

[Set Recommendations]

<p>Salamence @ Lum Berry<br />
Ability: Moxie<br />
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe<br />
Naive Nature<br />
- Dragon Dance<br />
- Dragon Claw<br />
- Earthquake<br />
- Fire Blast</p>

<p>Salamence can make use of its good Speed and Attack stats to pull off a Dragon Dance set. Moxie is the ability of choice in order to gain an Attack boost once Salamence KOes a Pokemon, making it progressively more dangerous. Intimidate on the other hand allows Salamence to set up on physical attackers much more easily. Dragon Dance boosts Salamence's Attack and Speed. Dragon Claw is the main STAB move of choice, mainly because it doesn't lock you into the same move, unlike Outrage, which can be taken advantage of by Fairy-types. Earthquake offers extra coverage, as it nails Steel-types like Magnezone who think that they can sponge a Dragon Claw. Fire Blast allows Salamence to blast through those other Steel-types that can easily take an Earthquake, such as Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Skarmory.</p>

<p>Stone Edge is an option with which to hit Togekiss, and Outrage is an option over Dragon Claw. Good teammates include physical sweepers, as one can break down their shared checks, making it easier for the other to sweep. This makes Swords Dance Lucario, Swords Dance Scizor, and Blaziken good teammates, as they also have fantastic synergy. Rapid Spin or Defog support is also really appreciated, as without Stealth Rock on the field, Salamence finds it much easier to set up. This makes Starmie and Excadrill good partners.</p>


[Checks and Counters]

<p>The best way to stop a Salamence sweep is by revenge killing Salamence with priority. This means that Weavile, Mamoswine, Mega Mawile, and Scizor all make for good checks. Fairy-types are immune to Dragon-type attacks; Azumarill also resists Fire Blast, while Togekiss is immune to Earthquake, making Togekiss a great counter and Azumarill a great check. Steel types resist Salamence's STAB attacks, making them okay checks in a pinch. Sturdy physical walls like Slowbro and Hippowdon check Dragon Dance sets pretty nicely. Finally, Choice Scarf users that are faster than Salamence make good checks, such as Choice Scarf Garchomp.</p>
 
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I get that you don't like Mega Charizard X, but there HAS to be a mention of how it basically completely outclasses Salamence as a Dragon Dancer. It's immune to burn, neutral to Ice Shard, has higher attacking power thanks to Tough Claws without having to use Life Orb, and has higher Special Attack if it wants to go mixed. The only time Salamence is the better choice is if using a Scarf set or Dragon Dance + LO, which is slightly more powerful.
 
I think there should be a Choice Scarf set, as it's one of Salamence's most dangerous sets. Even though Fairy types exist now, once they are removed it's not very hard for Salamence to grab a Moxie boost and just smash offensive teams. I guess you could put something like Iron Tail in the Fire Blast spot to hit Fairies, or Stone Edge which still hits Togekiss and is not a terrible move outside of this
 
I'll add a Scarf set for Jirachi's reasoning, but I want QC to decide if they think it's worthy of a set.

edit: added scarf mence.
 
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I seriously doubt the effectiveness of Salamence as a wallbreaker, especially considering it only received nerfs in this gen and it wasn't very good to start with. (Keep in mind that the mixed set didn't receive an analysis in gen V btw) I'd toss it, unless anyone has any objections.

The Dragon Dance set might need retooling, since fairy-types are a major blind spot for it; nearly every relevant fairy-type can check or counter it at +1 and even +2, which is a huge problem for Dragon Dance user, since the entire point of a dragon dance user is to kill everything in a single blow. It's step down from Charizard-X in terms of usability.

I haven't tested the Choice Scarf set, but I don't think it's very good either. Fairies, Excadrill, Aigislash, and Talonflame seriously reduce it's ability to sweep, big time.

I think this analysis as a whole needs some new found perspective. Salamence isn't top tier anymore; it's struggling to find relevancy in the new gen, and your overview needs to reflect that.
 
"Mence isn't nearly as effective as it used to be"

I've added this to the cons section.

"Has no counters because of it's ability to run mixed sets"

I've removed this from the Pros section.

I'll leave both the Scarf and Mix set for now to see what everyone else thinks.
 
I guess you could put something like Iron Tail in the Fire Blast spot to hit Fairies, or Stone Edge which still hits Togekiss and is not a terrible move outside of this
Click to expand...

Except that Iron Tail is a TM Move from Gen 2-4, and I don't think that Salamence can learn it by Egg Move this gen. You'd have to opt for Steel Wing, which hits noticeably weaker and should be AC material at best. I'd also opt for using Stone Edge over Rock Slide on the Scarf set if only to hit things like Togekiss harder, as Scarf Mence is a little on the weaker side without the Moxie boosts.
 
Jirachi said:
I think there should be a Choice Scarf set, as it's one of Salamence's most dangerous sets. Even though Fairy types exist now, once they are removed it's not very hard for Salamence to grab a Moxie boost and just smash offensive teams. I guess you could put something like Iron Tail in the Fire Blast spot to hit Fairies, or Stone Edge which still hits Togekiss and is not a terrible move outside of this
Click to expand...

How is it one of Salamence's most dangerous sets currently?It is a horrible idea to get yourself locked into a Steel-type move during a match or Stone Edge..regardless of what phase of the match. There are better Dragon-type Pokemon who can use a Choice Scarf more efficiently so there is no point adding this to Salamence. This is infact arguably Salamence's worst potential set atm....

-Mention that Togekiss walls the DD variant to hell and back.
-Remove mentions of unreleased Pokemon such as Jellicent and Cresselia
-Earthquake is used for Steel-types, but needs mention that it is what you will be relying on to hit Fairy types.
 
-Mention that Togekiss walls the DD variant to hell and back.
-Remove mentions of unreleased Pokemon such as Jellicent and Cresselia
-Earthquake is used for Steel-types, but needs mention that it is what you will be relying on to hit Fairy types.

Done done and done!
 
You forgot to address the first part of my post. The mixed set needs to be reexamined (or removed, as I mentioned), because incredible wallbreaker & one of the best mixed attackers are not words I would use to describe it. In addition, I don't see a point to mentioning Fire Blast can be used to target Fairy-types, because that implies that it would be a remotely decent option against them.

Fix that set and you can consider this stamped.
 
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PK, you're right about over hyping Mence, so I've toned it done a little by saying it's a good wall breaker. Although I could only speak to one other QC member, alexwolf at the moment is also rejecting MixMence. I'll give other QC members time to discuss this, but if no one else feels strongly about keeping Mix Mence I'll remove it. I won't consider this a stamp until MixMence's fate is decided.

Edit: Ginganinja feels MixMence isn't worth a set in the preview, so it's being removed.
 
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Ok I got some bad news. Salamence, surprisingly, cannot learn Outrage outside of Move Tutor from previous gens or the Dream World. Unless its an Egg Move this generation it is going to be stuck with Dragon Claw.
 
This looks very good, but I believe an additional bulky set could be considered. It can function well, and actually can beat some of the common fighting types and MEvos that are becoming common such as Lucario, Blaziken, Pinsir, Heracross, and additional Pokes like Breloom. Not sure if it deserves a set, but I would like to we a mention or something like that. I would like to see what QC thinks about this set in Pre-Bank Metagame.
 
Wish is an event move so its not yet available for Salamence. As for Roost sets i am really not sure. I mean check at those calcs:
  • +1 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Salamence: 367-432 (93.14 - 109.64%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • +1 252+ Atk Mega Pinsir Aerilate Return vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Salamence: 370-437 (93.9 - 110.91%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • -1 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Salamence: 238-282 (60.4 - 71.57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
And while defensive Salamence can avoid the OHKO from Mega Blaziken it can't do shit to prevent it from Baton Passing the boosts to a Pokemon such as Azumarill or Togekiss, as they are immune to Dragon Tail. Poor Salamence how shitty you ended up.
 
Although outclassed by Charizard X and other Megas, doesn't Salamence have a niche in that it doesn't take up the rather precious MegaEvo slot on a team? It has great synergy with MMawile and (M) Scizor, and so by virtue of it not taking up the MegaEvo spot it can prove to be useful. I must admit I am not experienced in X/Y battling yet, but are any sets other than a DD set viable?
 
I would change Togekiss from being a good check to a solid counter. Salamence literally cannot touch it.

QC APPROVED 2/3

good work!
 
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[Pros]
<ul>
<li>Salamence has access to two great abilities in Moxie and Intimidate.</li>
<li>Salamence also has access to Dragon Dance.(full stop)</li>
<li>Salamence has solid stats, including a base 100 speed Speed ,(remove) and base 135 attack Attack.</li>
</ul>

[Cons]

<ul>
<li>It faces stiff competition from Dragonite and Mega Charizard X as a Dragon Dance sweeper.</li>
<li>Fairy-types are immune to Dragon-type attacks,(comma) so .</li><li> Salamence isn't nearly as effective as it used to be.</li>
<li>It's pretty easy to revenge kill even at +1 speed Speed.</li>
</ul>

[Set Recommendations]

<p>Salamence @ Lum Berry<br />
Ability: Moxie<br />
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SAtk 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe<br />
Naive Nature<br />
- Dragon Dance<br />
- Dragon Claw<br />
- Earthquake<br />
- Fire Blast</p>

<p>Salamence can make use of it's its good speed and attack stat Speed and Attack stats to pull off a Dragon Dance set. Moxie is the ability of choice in order to gain an attack Attack boost once Salamence KOes a Pokemon, making it progressively more dangerous. Intimidate however on the other hand allows Salamence to set up on physical attackers much more easily. Dragon Dance boosts Salamence's attack and speed Attack and Speed. Dragon Claw is the main STAB move of choice, mainly because it doesn't lock you into the same move, unlike Outrage, which can be taken advantage of by Fairy-types. Earthquake offers extra coverage,(comma) as it nails Steel-types like Magnezone thinking who think that they can sponge a Dragon Claw. Fire Blast allows Salamence to blast through those other Steel-types that can easily take an Earthquake, such as Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Skarmory.</p>

<p>Stone Edge is an option with which to hit Togekiss, as well as and Outrage being is an option over Dragon Claw. Good teammates include physical sweepers, as they together can break down each others one can break down their shared checks, making it easier for the other to sweep. This makes Swords Dance Lucario, Swords Dance Scizor, and Blaziken good teammates, as they also have fantastic synergy too. Rapid Spin or Defog support is also really appreciated, as without any hazards Stealth Rock on the field, Salamence finds it much easier to set up. This makes Starmie and Excadrill good partners.</p>


[Checks and Counters]

<p>The best way to stop a Salamence sweep is by revenge killing Salamence with priority. This means that Weavile, Mamoswine, Mega Mawlie Mawile, and Scizor all make for good checks. Fairy-types are immune to Dragon-type attacks;(semicolon) .(remove) Azumarill also resists Fire Blast, while Togekiss is immune to Earthquake, making Togekiss a great counter and Azumarill a great check. Steel types resist Salamence's STAB attacks, making them okay checks in a pinch. Sturdy physical walls like Slowbro and Hippowdon check Dragon Dance sets pretty nicely. Finally, Choice Scarf users that are faster than Salamence make good checks, meaning such as Choice Scarf Garchomp is a good check.</p>

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2/2
 
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