Other Stall

Status
Not open for further replies.
^ Except only opposing stall teams (and maybe balance) ever run Heal Bell or Aromatherapy, because of the inherently defensive nature of those moves :/ if you use those moves on an offensive/ HO team, then you'll lose a ton of momentum (which those team archetypes live and die on). Also, because offensive mons typically only get one chance to set-up/ sweep, it's unlikely that you'll actually end up healing a frail sweeper or the like.

Also, defog does remove hazards from both sides. Which means that it can be equally as much of a pain for the user as it is for your opponent. Also, a good number of pokemon that learn defog are Stealth Rock weak, so switching in to SR and taking 25% in order to get rid of it isn't ideal. Not saying defog won't be great, but there's no denying that it has a negative side effect which the user has to consider when choosing whether to use the move, or if Rapid Spin would be preferable. Defog does not outclass Rapid Spin.

I still think that stall is going to be (at least) better off this gen than it was last. I just think that the type chart changes (broadly speaking) allow for more synergetic defensive combos. Also, the weather nerf (which powered up offense more than defense, arguably) is pretty crucial, and power drops in some moves (Fire Blast/ Hydro Pump etc., Hidden power) helps some as well. We also know that some key offensive threats (like Breloom) have received some significant nerfs in their effectiveness (ala Spore). I suppose it all remains to be seen though. I can't wait until we have more concrete information about the meta; atm, while we have some information, we still lack a lot of the crucial technical info that will impact the gen 6 meta. Just based on lack of info if nothing else, I think calling any playstyle 'dead' or 'overpowered' is more than a bit of an exaggeration.
 
I've been running stall recently. And nearly the exact same way we have for the past 3 generations (hazard setters, spinner and spinblocker). I've run into a couple of Defog teams.

I haven't had a problem.

I'll continue to see how it goes though as I climb the ladder.
 
FrostFire said:
^ Except only opposing stall teams (and maybe balance) ever run Heal Bell or Aromatherapy, because of the inherently defensive nature of those moves :/ if you use those moves on an offensive/ HO team, then you'll lose a ton of momentum (which those team archetypes live and die on). Also, because offensive mons typically only get one chance to set-up/ sweep, it's unlikely that you'll actually end up healing a frail sweeper or the like.

Also, defog does remove hazards from both sides. Which means that it can be equally as much of a pain for the user as it is for your opponent. Also, a good number of pokemon that learn defog are Stealth Rock weak, so switching in to SR and taking 25% in order to get rid of it isn't ideal. Not saying defog won't be great, but there's no denying that it has a negative side effect which the user has to consider when choosing whether to use the move, or if Rapid Spin would be preferable. Defog does not outclass Rapid Spin.

I still think that stall is going to be (at least) better off this gen than it was last. I just think that the type chart changes (broadly speaking) allow for more synergetic defensive combos. Also, the weather nerf (which powered up offense more than defense, arguably) is pretty crucial, and power drops in some moves (Fire Blast/ Hydro Pump etc., Hidden power) helps some as well. We also know that some key offensive threats (like Breloom) have received some significant nerfs in their effectiveness (ala Spore). I suppose it all remains to be seen though. I can't wait until we have more concrete information about the meta; atm, while we have some information, we still lack a lot of the crucial technical info that will impact the gen 6 meta. Just based on lack of info if nothing else, I think calling any playstyle 'dead' or 'overpowered' is more than a bit of an exaggeration.
Click to expand...

Not to be rude but I run Heal Bell regularly on offensive orientated teams.
 
Rubyiris said:
Not to be rude but I run Heal Bell regularly on offensive orientated teams.
Click to expand...

It doesn't change fact that clerics were rare and will still be rare, as aromatherapy/heal bell have really limited distribution. And BTW new stall doesn't rely only on status - they use moves like Wrap, Whirlpool, Infestation, etc. which received good buffs/showed up this gen. And as long as you have a good way to bait Defog users - there's no problem with using hazards after they die.
 
Kejmur said:
It doesn't change fact that clerics were rare and will still be rare, as aromatherapy/heal bell have really limited distribution. And BTW new stall doesn't rely only on status - they use moves like Wrap, Whirlpool, Infestation, etc. which received good buffs/showed up this gen. And as long as you have a good way to bait Defog users - there's no problem with using hazards after they die.
Click to expand...

'New stall' is starting to sound a bit like 'new coke.' How on earth can the damage from two or three turns of Infestation compare to the damage inflited throughout the battle by Toxic or the hit to damage output caused by Will-o-Wisp or Scald? I can think of almost no situation in which I'd actually want to run a trapping move over permanent status.
 
GeneralMLD said:
The underline is exactly why it is shameful. You go into a match expecting a good honest fight and suddenly one person is having fun and the opponent is forced to rage quit, or frustratingly continue the match. A good match has both opponents having that feeling of victory being just within their grasp, using tactics to win through. Stall uses cheap tricks. Sorry, call me old fashioned, but stall teams in any competitive format, just shows the true colors of the people that use them.
Click to expand...
Probably of the mindset that you should not try and control possession of the ball in any competitive sport. Between American Football and Football stalling is a very important aspect of the sport. A team that scores too quickly might end up being beat because the other team recovers the ball up to that last minute and scores in the final moments.
Combat is not just about brute strength and many martial arts utilize the concept of using the enemy's force against them. Just because you want a quick and decisive fight does not mean that you will get it. To say that stall is wrong or shameful is just simply narrow minded and shows your particular bias to a playstyle and an unwillingness to properly defend against all possible opponents.
You are only holding yourself back with such biases.
 
GeneralMLD said:
The underline is exactly why it is shameful. You go into a match expecting a good honest fight and suddenly one person is having fun and the opponent is forced to rage quit, or frustratingly continue the match. A good match has both opponents having that feeling of victory being just within their grasp, using tactics to win through. Stall uses cheap tricks. Sorry, call me old fashioned, but stall teams in any competitive format, just shows the true colors of the people that use them.
Click to expand...

I'd just like to start off by saying that I, personally, dislike facing stall as much as your average player. I love me some OP sweeping and playing quickly. Smash and burn, rape and pillage, team-destroying sweeps are typically the way I like it.

However, stall is not cheap, at least no more so than speedy sweepers and hyper-offense. Do you really think Game Freak made Walrein with sweeping in mind?

No. Hell no. If you were to manage to sweep with a Pokemon like that against your typical good player, I want your babies.

Seriously though, Pokemon are designed with all types of playstyles in mind, and yes, stall can be frustrating to face. Stallrein's 32 turns of stall with Ice Body and Leftovers and Protect and Substitute drove me insane when my brother used it against me back in DPPt, but I couldn't blame him for something the makers of the game had surely already looked into and approved before release. (I know about the removal of perma-weather and how Stallrein isn't really viable now, but I'm making a point here).

There's a difference between difficult/frustrating and downright cheap, and I think you're getting the two mixed up.

Also, how does running stall "show the true colors" of those who use it?? Does using stall make you some sort of mass-murdering bastard? No. Just... no. It's a game tactic; it doesn't reveal anything about you other than the fact that you may prefer a slower approach to competitive Pokemon.
 
Sandstall, with hippowdon/gyarados/ferrothorn, is my favorite style right now. Greninjas are carrying more and more HP Fire/Electric now, there are some rock slide Aegislash that mess up Gyara, and these 3 have no solid answer to Rotom-W. Honestly Gastrodon and Quagsire are the only good answers to that guy. Ferrothorn guessing whether Garchomp has a fire move or not is always shitty too. Anyway, here's a replay with some bulky ass pokemon surviving things they just have no business surviving, and just grinding it out.

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/pokebankoubeta-58231573
 
Princess Bubblegum said:
Is there a reason your Clefable doesn't have Magic Guard? It is taking Stealth Rockand sand damage.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that, instead of Magic Guard, he's using Unaware - another great ability.

But yeah, sand toxic stall seems pretty effective. Can't wait to try out the concept myself. :-)
 
Last edited:
lol @ the end of that replay. I'm so over people complaining about stall being "cheap" now :P

I'm very inclined to run Unaware on all defensive Clefable now if I were to use it in OU. In theory, it's the best bet as far as taking on a Dragon that's already boosted (yes, it shouldn't get to that point if you're playing stall, but stuff happens). Which sucks because I love Magic Guard. I guess you could still run Magic Guard Clefable if you need a better matchup against other stall teams and you already have ways to check/counter Dragon-type sweepers.
 
Yeah I actually prefer Unaware. Clefable has heal bell anyway if it gets statused, and I can try to control the sand so it doesn't harm Clefable much. I do get hit by hazards, but that's the job of the Defogger. Unaware has been crucial many times, mainly ignoring Swords Dance on Garchomp, Dragon Dance on Dragonite and others, Superpower on Malamar, and Calm Mind on too many things to count. I can also survive one bullet punch from any Scizor and any Lucario and hit back with flamethrower or moonblast.

Talonflame is a serious serious threat, it always finds a free turn to swords dance, and it's not only its ability to boost up but some of them run taunt too. Taunt talonflame has shut me down a few times when gyarados was already dead so my only option was trying to toxic it. It's easy to say "well get up your rocks" but sometimes that pokemon just never has the free turn to do so. Heatran is difficult for me to use as a talonflame counter because his stalling sets are absolutely rocked by so many many common things like any water pokemon, almost any fighting pokemon, almost any ground pokemon, scarf ttar, the genies, and anything that can use EQ or superpower. Rock types, particularly Rock/Water, would be the best counter to talonflame but they typically just don't function well as defensive pokemon. Even Regirock and Eviolite Rhydon just kinda get worn down without doing much back.

Aegislash and Gengar and Megagengar are some other troublesome pokemon and I'm going to try out Meloetta because Normal/Psychic with good stats might be worthy of a teamslot.
 
I know it's been talked about before in the thread, but I really think Infestation should get more special mention. Sure, you run the risk of accidentally trapping a check/counter or something that can begin to boost, but on the right Pokemon or in the right set up it can really have its affect on a team. With support from entry hazards (preferably Toxic Spikes) you can phaze to something of your choice and trap something then whittle it down till death. On its last leg, it could be what it takes to push a team ahead to victory.
 
Here's a replay showcasing an underrated pokemon, Mandibuzz. I'm using defog/whirlwind/roost/foulplay. Flying/Dark has nice resistances and this thing just laughs at Aegislash. If Aegislash switches in, that's a chance to use Roost and recover some health then KO it or phaze it at your leasier.

This replay also shows some critical uses of sand. I didn't have any answer to MegaHeracross after toxic missed, so stalling it out while sand wore it down was my only answer.

My opponent was using some questional pokemon like Delphox and Zygarde but I don't think it detracts from showing off just how bulky some of these pokemon can be.

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/pokebankoubeta-59054509


Edit: Apparantly Mandibuzz's Overcoat ability not only protects it from sand and hail damage, but it also protects from Powder moves like Sleep Powder. I'm not sure about Spore though
 
Last edited:
I have been using Tyranitar on every one of my teams this generation to trap and kill Mega-Gengar before it can do too much damage. At the same time it checks Talonflame rather nicely, although yeah eating a U-turn sucks, but at least then you know its not the wall-breaking set.

Hippowdon is the only reliable Aegslash check I have used, I may try out Malibuzz in the future though.
 
Othesemo said:
'New stall' is starting to sound a bit like 'new coke.' How on earth can the damage from two or three turns of Infestation compare to the damage inflited throughout the battle by Toxic or the hit to damage output caused by Will-o-Wisp or Scald? I can think of almost no situation in which I'd actually want to run a trapping move over permanent status.
Click to expand...
Well Infestation plus bind band will do a good amount of damage and they CANNOT switch or heal bell it. Add that to protect, hail/sand, burn, confuse, poison, etc. and I think you got a nice combo right there. Also from my recent uses with Infestation, the 100% accu is very nice compared to missing 1 out of every 4 toxics/WoW. Oh yeah and infestation cannot be bounced back which is another plus. It also gets STAB damage and super effective/not effective on the attack turn then does standard damage after that.
 
shack said:
Well Infestation plus bind band will do a good amount of damage and they CANNOT switch or heal bell it. Add that to protect, hail/sand, burn, confuse, poison, etc. and I think you got a nice combo right there. Also from my recent uses with Infestation, the 100% accu is very nice compared to missing 1 out of every 4 toxics/WoW. Oh yeah and infestation cannot be bounced back which is another plus. It also gets STAB damage and super effective/not effective on the attack turn then does standard damage after that.
Click to expand...

If you're running Binding Band, you're missing out on leftovers, which I think you need a pretty good excuse for. Also, Infestation suffers from a crucial design flaw- they cannot switch after they've already had the chance to switch to an appropriate counter. And if you proceed to switch out, then the effect of infestation ends and you've gotten minimal damage for your troubles.

Also, Will-o-Wisp is 85% accuracy now. Not hugely important, but though I'd point it out.
 
Hi guys, I know I haven't updated the OP in a while, but I've now included a section talking about Defog. Just thought I'd let you know about the small update. If you think important points are missing from the OP, let me now know and I'll decide if they will be put into the OP. Thanks to everyone who has participated in the discussion of this thread so far.
 
ShootingStarmie said:
Hi guys, I know I haven't updated the OP in a while, but I've now included a section talking about Defog. Just thought I'd let you know about the small update. If you think important points are missing from the OP, let me now know and I'll decide if they will be put into the OP. Thanks to everyone who has participated in the discussion of this thread so far.
Click to expand...

Though Defog puts a damper on the ability of the stall teams to deal damage, I'd also say that many offensive Pokemon are dependent on the residual damage of Stealth Rock and Spikes to score crucial OHKOs and 2HKOs. Even more importantly, many offensive teams either use dedicated suicide leads or do not have hazard setters that are particularly sturdy, meaning that the more defensive nature of the Pokemon using entry hazards on stall teams are better suited to setting up hazards multiple times throughout the match should Rapid Spin or the higher-distributed Defog remove them. Also, giving stall teams free reign to switch in and out of battle to take hits at their leisure makes Defog somewhat counterproductive. Defog seems like more of a neutral tactic than a stark negative to stall teams, one that is easily played around and could be good or bad depending on the situation.
 
Othesemo said:
If you're running Binding Band, you're missing out on leftovers, which I think you need a pretty good excuse for. Also, Infestation suffers from a crucial design flaw- they cannot switch after they've already had the chance to switch to an appropriate counter. And if you proceed to switch out, then the effect of infestation ends and you've gotten minimal damage for your troubles.

Also, Will-o-Wisp is 85% accuracy now. Not hugely important, but though I'd point it out.
Click to expand...

Infestation still works. Binding band isn't needed, but if you do run it you should have wish support or another form of healing.

Some people stay in bc they assume u can't ko them and they want to set up. This is where the damage from Investation and burn/poison will pay off.

And they are still trapped the turn that you switch out, so if you have a gengar that you previously mega evolved you can get a free switch in to perma trap.

85 still means u will miss about 1 out of every 4 it so which could be enough to mess up ur whole strat giving them time to react.

Its not the best strat in the game, but it's a strat.
 
Last edited:
GeneralMLD said:
The underline is exactly why it is shameful. You go into a match expecting a good honest fight and suddenly one person is having fun and the opponent is forced to rage quit, or frustratingly continue the match. A good match has both opponents having that feeling of victory being just within their grasp, using tactics to win through. Stall uses cheap tricks. Sorry, call me old fashioned, but stall teams in any competitive format, just shows the true colors of the people that use them.
Click to expand...

Your argument basically states that any sort of tactics are cheap and dirty, and everyone should go brainless, like, fighting breasts with fists instead of go back and design better tools. (It takes over hundred of years for human to finally design a gun)

On the other hand, the frustrating issue is simply ridiculous, you know what? Haters gonna hate, if you sweep them, they cried, if you drag them out, they also cried. If stalling is considered dirty, blaming your opponent for your own inability is purely sinful. On the other hand, forfeiting is always a solution if you think you are not going to wrack through the wall, don't blame your opponent because you want to keep your pride.

I won't deny set up sweeping also involves skills, but stalling definitely involve more careful judgement and tactical decisions, and more knowledge over simple type coverage.

To add a last piece to the argument, you ever played chess? Professional board game always require hours to finish, call them cheap for not trading Queens and Knights.\

Sorry if I am being a bit too emotional, but my stand holds.
 
Last edited:
I'm running a Semi Sand Stall team in Showdown and it's working pretty well.
Of course, there aren't as many Defogers out there so it will be interesting to see how it does post-PokeBank
 
Photofluid said:
Your argument basically states that any sort of tactics are cheap and dirty, and everyone should go brainless, like, fighting breasts with fists instead of go back and design better tools. (It takes over hundred of years for human to finally design a gun)

On the other hand, the frustrating issue is simply ridiculous, you know what? Haters gonna hate, if you sweep them, they cried, if you drag them out, they also cried. If stalling is considered dirty, blaming your opponent for your own inability is purely sinful. On the other hand, forfeiting is always a solution if you think you are not going to wrack through the wall, don't blame your opponent because you want to keep your pride.

I won't deny set up sweeping also involves skills, but stalling definitely involve more careful judgement and tactical decisions, and more knowledge over simple type coverage.

To add a last piece to the argument, you ever played chess? Professional board game always require hours to finish, call them cheap for not trading Queens and Knights.\

Sorry if I am being a bit too emotional, but my stand holds.
Click to expand...

This goes out to you and others who quoted my week old posts.......mods previously said no more bickering about the ethics of using stall. So stop quoting my old post out of some need to justify your own principles. Let it go.
 
I really feel that Suicide-SR leads still will be a thing, at least that's what the most recent battles on Showdown demonstrate.

Also, I've seen quite a lot of Espeons lately. As far as defog users are concerned, Scizor sticks out as being neutral to SR and being immune to Toxic Spikes.

Crobat, as well as all the other flying birds, are immune against spikes anyways, however they really care about the -1 Speed from Sticky Web, other than Scizor, who can at least do something with Bullet Punch.

One MVP I really want to mention here is Prankster Sableeye, who consistently beats out on all Aegislash variants bar mixed ones. Prankster Taunt is also pretty invaluable, while Knock Off cripples Lum Berry users like Dragonite or Zygarde and Trevenant also.
 
I suggest people try using both Sand Stream pokemon together. Sassy Assault Vest Tyranitar is a GOD, and physically defensive Hippowdon is nearly as good even without a boosting item. (I'm also desperately trying to push Magnezone into this team, but he doesn't seem to fit :( )
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top