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Pokémon Gengar

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Mrveggie said:
i feel like talonflame has made gengar useless, actually on his own has made several OU pokemon completely useless if hes facing them. E.g Scizor, gengar, blaziken.
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If anything Gengar is glad that Talonflame is the most popular pokemon that checks him. Gengar can Shadowball Talonflame on the way in, or even sub if he suspects the switch and then Shadowball it for sure while it breaks his sub. Next turn you swap out to Rotom-W/Ttar/etc to absorb the BraveBird. So what if Talonflame can check Gengar from sweeping mindlessly, good for Talonflame. What's great for Gengar is that ghost is such an amazing offensive type this generation that he can even hit the things trying to check him for enormous damage.

If they want to swap in they get smashed. If they sacrifice a pokemon to Gengar to bring in Talonflame for free then you just swap out to Rotom and came out ahead. If any pokemon is hitting its best checks for large damage then you know it's an awesome pokemon. None of this means that it's not annoying when Talonflame checks your faceroll 6-0 sweep, but the reality is Talonflame being popular probably makes Gengar even better. Imagine for instance if Blissey was as popular as Talonflame, or anything else that he relies on Focus Blast hitting twice to get past.

Talonflame checks Gengar? Definitely. Talonflame makes Gengar obsolete? Not even close.
 
How's this for a Scarf set for Gengar? It's been testing really well on Showdown and in-game, but I wanted some full perspective on the matter. Maybe if Trick breeds come Pokebank I'll replace one of the coverage moves for that (obviously), but as for now, I'll have to make due without:

Gengar (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Dazzling Gleam
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
 
Piconoe said:
How's this for a Scarf set for Gengar? It's been testing really well on Showdown and in-game, but I wanted some full perspective on the matter. Maybe if Trick breeds come Pokebank I'll replace one of the coverage moves for that (obviously), but as for now, I'll have to make due without:

Gengar (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Dazzling Gleam
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
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Rock solid. The only thing that makes me cry is you ain't rocking that shiny bad-boy as a mega :P If you did probably switch Dazzling Gleam/Thunderbolt for Protect.
 
Mrveggie said:
i feel like talonflame has made gengar useless, actually on his own has made several OU pokemon completely useless if hes facing them. E.g Scizor, gengar, blaziken.

1 hit from +1 priority brave bird and its over. Since he's so fast he can kill scizor with flare blitz as well.
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Talonflame and Gengar actually work amazingly well together, along with a teammate like Dugtrio. Dugtrio can remove Tyranitar, allowing Gengar to come in and do its thing without having to worry about Pursuit. Talonflame appreciates Gengar getting rid of things like Barbaracle and Rotom-W that Dugtrio can't. The bottom line is, the existence of Talonflame makes Gengar (and Dugtrio) more useful.

Ranevski said:
If anything Gengar is glad that Talonflame is the most popular pokemon that checks him. Gengar can Shadowball Talonflame on the way in, or even sub if he suspects the switch and then Shadowball it for sure while it breaks his sub. Next turn you swap out to Rotom-W/Ttar/etc to absorb the BraveBird. So what if Talonflame can check Gengar from sweeping mindlessly, good for Talonflame. What's great for Gengar is that ghost is such an amazing offensive type this generation that he can even hit the things trying to check him for enormous damage.

If they want to swap in they get smashed. If they sacrifice a pokemon to Gengar to bring in Talonflame for free then you just swap out to Rotom and came out ahead. If any pokemon is hitting its best checks for large damage then you know it's an awesome pokemon. None of this means that it's not annoying when Talonflame checks your faceroll 6-0 sweep, but the reality is Talonflame being popular probably makes Gengar even better. Imagine for instance if Blissey was as popular as Talonflame, or anything else that he relies on Focus Blast hitting twice to get past.

Talonflame checks Gengar? Definitely. Talonflame makes Gengar obsolete? Not even close.
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Tyranitar is probably the best Mega Gengar check there is. With an Assault Vest, it can take a couple Focus Blasts, and can even take one without. If it comes in while Gengar Mega Evolves, and Gengar doesn't set up a Substitute, it immediately threatens to OHKO with Crunch or kill with Pursuit on the switch, forcing mindgames. If Choice Band Tyranitar switches in on Shadow Ball or Sludge Bomb, it can beat Gengar even harder. Tyranitar is the reason my Mega Gengar runs Substitute.
 
Totally agree, I think any Gengar not running Sub thesedays is playing Gengar incorrectly (outside of Scarf obviously). There is no way a 4th move is doing more for you than having a Sub does.

Shadowball + Something + Something + Sub is simply mandatory, while the "Something's" have a myriad of great options.
 
Lord Jesseus said:
Mega Gengar is a serious threat once its evolved, but I'm finding that the "Mega Turn Order" issue really holds it back, preventing it from being a truly potent revenge killer. For example, people keep trying to use it against my DD Gyarados, but +1 Gyarados outspeeds Timid Gengar every time and OHKOs, whereas a Timid Mega Gengar would outspeed.
Its frailty also makes it hard to "set up" as it were.
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What do you mean Mega Turn Order?

I thought if a pokemon "goes Mega", that turn it attains the new speed stat from it's mega form, and is applied that turn. Is that not so?
 
rokman said:
What do you mean Mega Turn Order?

I thought if a pokemon "goes Mega", that turn it attains the new speed stat from it's mega form, and is applied that turn. Is that not so?
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The speed calcs are made before mega evolution, which is good for Garchomp, bad for Gengar.
Lord Jesseus said:
Mega Gengar is a serious threat once its evolved, but I'm finding that the "Mega Turn Order" issue really holds it back, preventing it from being a truly potent revenge killer.
Its frailty also makes it hard to "set up" as it were.
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And this is a stupid mechanic Troll Freak threw in to prevent strong megas like Gengar and Absol from being Uber viable as they have to switch in before its ability takes effect. Good for Mawile and Gyarados, bad for Gengar.
 
rokman said:
What do you mean Mega Turn Order?

I thought if a pokemon "goes Mega", that turn it attains the new speed stat from it's mega form, and is applied that turn. Is that not so?
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No. The speed calculations are done before the Mega Transformation.

So Starmie vs Gengar goes like this:

1. Gengar Mega-Transforms
2. Starmie OHKOs with Psyshock / Psychic


If Gengar survived, then the NEXT turn, Gengar will go first.
 
Idk why people are talking about examples of bad players being bad. Not only should all MegaGengar users know that his first turn is based on Gengars regular form speed, but who the hell brings MegaGengar into Gyarados on the turn you predict DD? The Jolly DD Gy builds have always outsped the timid 130s which is why you never brought in Jolteon on the turn Gyardos DD's because next turn he's faster and OHK's you with EQ.

So even if timid MegaGengar DID get to use his 130speed on that first turn the Gyarados(who has one DD under his belt) is going to outspeed and kill him with EQ. Saying that this type of scenario is really holding MegaGengar back is absurd as all the 130's get outsped here anyways. Would it be better if Gengar was 130 speed always? Sure. But these types of flawed examples are getting tiresome.

Greninja Dark Pulse and Alakazam Psychic are the only scenarios I've commonly run into that I know would've been better if I started at 130 (and obviously I just don't send in Gengar in on these guys because of this, and make a conscious effort to get him in on something else early so I can megaevolve). The rest of the time Gengar is forced out is because of priority or something else where the 130speed wouldn't save you.
 
Ranevski said:
Totally agree, I think any Gengar not running Sub thesedays is playing Gengar incorrectly (outside of Scarf obviously). There is no way a 4th move is doing more for you than having a Sub does.

Shadowball + Something + Something + Sub is simply mandatory, while the "Something's" have a myriad of great options.
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I completely agree, even Mega Gengar should be running Sub because it allows it to beat a much larger number of threats. It's also very effective because during the "transformation" turn, opponents will often switch to a counter before Shadow Tag activates... the perfect opportunity to set up a sub.

It seems like every Gengar I see these days is a Mega Gengar though. Obviously MegaGar is a very powerful threat, but I think a lot of people have forgotten about sets like classic Sub + Disable Gengar. The same set from last gen is incredibly effective this time around as well, and it handles a lot of things like standard Mega Kangaskahn easily. Obviously, Mega Gengar plays a slightly different role on teams, but I really feel like Subdis Gengar isn't getting the usage it deserves because people are simply ignoring it!
 
Normal Gengar is one of the best Pokémon in this gen imo, if its mega form gets banned I can still see Gengar making top 10 in usage. I've been using Sub 3 attacks with Shadow ball, Sludge Bomb and Focus Blast and it works great. Don't know why but I find it easy to get subs up and from there Gengar can hit most of the metagame for strong damage with Ghost buff this gen. Sludge Bomb is great for Fairys and to hit things stringer than Shodowball for everything that's neutral to it, Focus Blast obviously gives it great coverage.
 
Flamebot said:
What should Mega Gengar do against Mega Alakizam? Would i thro in a sub.
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Switch out. If Mega-Alakazam is in on Mega-Gengar, it outspeeds and kills you with thinking. The same thing applies to Alakazam on Gengar. Either way, Gengar is never going to beat Alakazam unless it switches in.
 
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So, for PO players you might know the gengarite was banned yesterday, considering i was just getting used to the new meta for them to take out my shiny new mewtwo-level-uber rly made me mad.

So, that just goes to show you that another tiering system already deemed the gengarite broken (tho i dont realy know the entire process to ban it). And i must say, in the 1 week i had playing, i saw a lot of megas, ranging from Mega Luke to Mega Houndoom, a lot of them surprised me, but the most underwhelming i went up against was Gengar, at first i thought it was because we were overhyping, then i just slapped it in a sand team and was amazed with the results, for the good that is.

Sub 3 Attacks is a pretty basic set, but i think is the most optimal for M Gengar, while other more obscure options just as PerishStall, Sub Split, or Taunt (stallbreaker) are more directed to beat the more defensive counters. And imo, our meta is incredibly offensive as of right now for those to have the same level of usefulness as sub. That is just my thoughts on what should be Gengar's main set, but i dont think its lasting more than 1 suspect when Gengar just plain kills a poke everytime it enters.
 
BlackLight said:
Switch out. If Mega-Alakazam is in on Mega-Gengar, it outspeeds and kills you with thinking. The same thing applies to Alakazam on Gengar. Either way, Gengar is never going to beat Alakazam unless
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That makes me wonder, though. Do I have to worry about Alakazam or even switching into Mega Alakazam with Timid Scarf 252 Spe EV Gengar?
 
But if it comes down to it can't i just run a Subsitute and Destiny bond set to deal with Mega Alakazams? Because i honestly think Mega Gengar would win with this set. i also think Mega Gengar is better than Mega Alakazam in many ways to. So would it work.
 
PizzaBattKillers said:
So is it safe to say that when not using Mega Gengar the scarf set is the best way to go?
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I think I would say that Specs set is good pick as well, because:

a) NO ONE expects it, which gives you massive surprise factor advantage and with Specs your Shadow Ball hurts like hell. And now with Steel nerf against Ghost attacks you can technically spam your Shadow Ball without worries in the world. Switching in is not a problem as well with Fighting and Ground Immunties + 4xBug Resist.
b) While it requires prediction, you hit much harder than MegaGengar. Although in most cases you'll be just spamming Shadow Ball and sometimes just use Focus Blast to hit Ttar/Snorlax on switch. BTW against Max SpD Assault Vest Snorlax you deal 38,61% - 45,55%, which is pretty hard hit taking into account how specially bulky Snorlax is with Assault Vest and AV Max HP/Max SpD Tyranitar takes 64,34% - 76,24%, which hurts like hell. Those calcs are with Timid.
c) You have another trick up your sleave - Trick. Tricking Choice Specs can be a great way to cripple opponents counter. Tyranitar, Snorlax, Skuntank, Drapion all hate being tricked Specs, while it also means that Blissey/Chansey needs to watch out as well. I think the moveset of Shadow Ball/Sludge Bomb/Focus Blast/Trick is the best one.
 
Kejmur said:
I think I would say that Specs set is good pick as well, because:

a) NO ONE expects it, which gives you massive surprise factor advantage and with Specs your Shadow Ball hurts like hell. And now with Steel nerf against Ghost attacks you can technically spam your Shadow Ball without worries in the world. Switching in is not a problem as well with Fighting and Ground Immunties + 4xBug Resist.
b) While it requires prediction, you hit much harder than MegaGengar. Although in most cases you'll be just spamming Shadow Ball and sometimes just use Focus Blast to hit Ttar/Snorlax on switch. BTW against Max SpD Assault Vest Snorlax you deal 38,61% - 45,55%, which is pretty hard hit taking into account how specially bulky Snorlax is with Assault Vest and AV Max HP/Max SpD Tyranitar takes 64,34% - 76,24%, which hurts like hell. Those calcs are with Timid.
c) You have another trick up your sleave - Trick. Tricking Choice Specs can be a great way to cripple opponents counter. Tyranitar, Snorlax, Skuntank, Drapion all hate being tricked Specs, while it also means that Blissey/Chansey needs to watch out as well. I think the moveset of Shadow Ball/Sludge Bomb/Focus Blast/Trick is the best one.
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It's Gen V Tutor only, though, and I don't know if Gen VI will allow it to be bred. If not, then have fun (legitimately) getting a max IV Gengar with the right nature on any generation before Gen VI.
 
PokemonMasterDebater said:
Alternatively, you can play on a simulator and not give a fuck.
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While the sim looks nice for what it is, it still pales in comparison to how gorgeous the real games are, even comparing old Gens to the sim at the time (only plus side is visible arena hazards and 24/7 weather effects). Also, what's the point of having the game if you're just going to use the sim for ALL of your battling? I see it as a testing ground to make sure I don't spend a day breeding something that doesn't work.
 
Again, what is more viable, Mega GEngar or Mega Alakazam and why? because stat wise Alakazam seems better. Also what do you do on yoir first turn because you are usally outsped when you mega Evolve, would you use subsitute that turn?
 
Flamebot said:
Again, what is more viable, Mega GEngar or Mega Alakazam and why? because stat wise Alakazam seems better. Also what do you do on yoir first turn because you are usally outsped when you mega Evolve, would you use subsitute that turn?
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I Substitute, others Focus Blast (in case of Tyranitar) or sometimes even Protect. The first turn of mega evolution is the most critical one for Mega Gengar, but Substitute does let you get it "right" almost all the time.

Also Mega Gengar is a million times better than Mega Alakazam because of Shadow Tag. Shadow Tag was the reason WYNAUT was Uber in Gen 4. It's the reason Gothitelle and Wobbufett are BL in Gen 5. It's the reason that Chandelure was banned in Dream World OU. It's the reason GameFreak never released Shadow Tag Litwick. Although why they put Shadow Tag on Mega Gengar beats me.

Alakazam likes running Life Orb (more power than Mega, with Timid still outpowers mega with Modest), or Focus Sash (to get revenge kills) with Magic Guard. Before Magic Guard Alakazam was released Alakazam was RU. Using Mega is only good if you need the extra speed. The speed lets you outspeed...Electrode. (normal Alakazam beats Gengar better than Mega since there is a risk Gengar is a Scarfed one)
 
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