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[QC Ready 2/3] Kangaskhan
- Thread starter Halcyon.
- Start date
It is a lot, yes, but it's incredibly powerful, and OHKOing Hippowdon 100% of the time at +2 is no joke. I definitely prefer Return, but I have found use for Double Edge and so I think it deserves a secondary slash to Return.
Even so, it does have the ability to take a hit which is kind of ruined by the sheer recoil of 1.5 double edges
I agree, but in the case of someone using Double Edge, they are sacrificing that ability to instead deal massive damage. It's a trade off: bulk for power.
If nothing else, it's not like it's impossible to get Wish support this generation: Togekiss (which is actually an amazing partner for Kangaskhan), Florges, and Sylveon all learn it and can pass multiples.
Failing that, there's nothing wrong with giving up your Mega Kangaskhan altogether to allow other sweepers on your team to clean up; just because a sweeper is bulky doesn't mean you need to always use that bulk. See: Salamence, Gyarados. Sacrificing Kangaskhan to deprive your opponent of a physical wall is a perfectly legitimate trade imo as long as you have other sweepers like Blaziken or Garchomp to continue cleaning up.
As long as you aren't Double-Edging a Blissey, I don't see a problem with taking 30-50% recoil damage as long as you're putting dents in their defenses.
That does now beg the question though; when Pokebank eventually rolls around, if you're using Double-Edge, would you risk losing coverage or power by finding space for Drain Punch?
Failing that, there's nothing wrong with giving up your Mega Kangaskhan altogether to allow other sweepers on your team to clean up; just because a sweeper is bulky doesn't mean you need to always use that bulk. See: Salamence, Gyarados. Sacrificing Kangaskhan to deprive your opponent of a physical wall is a perfectly legitimate trade imo as long as you have other sweepers like Blaziken or Garchomp to continue cleaning up.
As long as you aren't Double-Edging a Blissey, I don't see a problem with taking 30-50% recoil damage as long as you're putting dents in their defenses.
That does now beg the question though; when Pokebank eventually rolls around, if you're using Double-Edge, would you risk losing coverage or power by finding space for Drain Punch?
The thing is, other than Breloom and the rare Amoonguss, Venusaur, and Roserade, when exactly does Kangaskhan need to switch into a sleep move? It would much rather have the ability to Fake Out something like Gengar, or even something like Gourgeist and Trevanent who can actually burn Kangaskhan very easily if its lacks the ability to hit them. Besides, Kanga isn't going to be switching into a Breloom anyway, because...well Breloom can do hefty damage to it with Mach Punch or any move for that matter. The other three Pokemon I listed aren't very common anyway, and even then you're much better off hitting Ghost-types. It's just not that useful TBH, especially with the lack of Pokemon that use sleep inducing moves and the influx of Ghost-types. It at least makes Kangaskhan itself more useful before it Mega evolves.
252+ Atk Kangaskhan Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 223-264 (85.11 - 100.76%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Making Gengar an uncertain switch-in is certainly more valuable than semi-reliable sleep protection.
Someone I fought on Wi-Fi used Dizzy Punch & confused me on the second hit. And Rock Slide for the flinch. I almost lost. Not sure if it's worth mentioning though.
Also, a couple of questions: does Circle Throw phaze the opponent twice? Also, can Counter hit twice?
Also, a couple of questions: does Circle Throw phaze the opponent twice? Also, can Counter hit twice?
Not sure about Counter, but I am certain that Circle Throw hits twice, but only phazes after both of the moves hit, meaning it only phazes once.
Fake Out, either as a set or a slash with PuP, NEEDS to be on this analysis as more than a mention. Kanga is one of the best priority users in the game, with FO + SP being 210 BP priority from 125 attack. Kanga becomes a threat against frail attackers and stuff like Talonflame (who otherwise even outspeed Sucker Punch) when it comes in multiple times to fake outs mid and late game, it's WAY WAY WAY more than a free Mega Evo. Not to mention that Kanga doesn't NEED to serve the role as the team's sweeper on every team it's on, it functions incredibly well as a revenge killer and hard hitter. It's a key move in Kanga's arsenal, much more notable than Bulldoze is, which apparently is worth mentioning as a slash.
I already mentioned a Fake Out revenge killer set and QC said they would consider it. I was then approved without adding it, so I figured that it wasn't something that the QC team wanted. However, I agree and do think a Fake Out set should be added (I wouldn't want to have it be a slash since I think the two play differently).
252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Bulldoze vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash: 148-176 (45.67 - 54.32%) -- 97.66% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
The only real reason to use a ground move in the first place is to hit Aegislash, and Bulldoze has a very, very high chance of 2HKOing it. It also has the added bonus of lowering Pokemon's Speed on the switch, which is important sometimes because Kangaskhan doesn't have Power-Up Punch, it's Sucker Punch isn't exactly the most powerful move in the game. If your opponent is lower than you, it lets you use Return instead, which can be the difference between a 2HKO and a OHKO. That was my reasoning behind slashing Bulldoze.
Should prankster Sableye be given a mention? Switch into power-up punch and proceed to Wil-O-Wisp, but only for her mega forme (scrappy will be a factor vs Sableye).
I'm writing this up as we speak and I plan on including a mention of "Ghost types with Will-O-Wisp," so Sableye will fall under that category.
Ooooor you could OHKO it with EQ after some chip damage (or if the Aegi isn't 252 HP) instead of relying of getting massacred by Secret Sword.
I'm going to be completely honest in saying that -2 spe from Bulldoze is massively overrated and probably one of the gimmickiest things that could be run on an OU viable Pokemon atm. It shouldn't even be slashed on any set... or honestly even mentioned. Kanga has such massive power that I literally cannot think of a single situation Bulldoze > EQ, please inform me if you have something that you need Bulldoze to beat that Return/DE, EQ, or Sucker Punch aren't going to already. I usually trust Alexwolf's judgement when it comes to stuff but I've been using Kanga extensively and I can't find a single situation where I feel like I would've preferred to have had Bulldoze.
I'm going to be completely honest in saying that -2 spe from Bulldoze is massively overrated and probably one of the gimmickiest things that could be run on an OU viable Pokemon atm. It shouldn't even be slashed on any set... or honestly even mentioned. Kanga has such massive power that I literally cannot think of a single situation Bulldoze > EQ, please inform me if you have something that you need Bulldoze to beat that Return/DE, EQ, or Sucker Punch aren't going to already. I usually trust Alexwolf's judgement when it comes to stuff but I've been using Kanga extensively and I can't find a single situation where I feel like I would've preferred to have had Bulldoze.
Evolite Dusclops seems like the most solid counter, being 3HKOed by Mega-Sucker Punch / Crunch (2HKOed by +1 in case of a scrappy Power-up Punch on the switch-in), and threatens a crippling Will o Wisp.
Despite your analysis, standard Substitute Gengar ought to win actually. Gengar's battle plan is:
1. Substitute
2. Disable
3. Focus Blast
Khanga might prefer to run Crunch for this reason. Its the same power and much more reliable.
As far as counters... all the ghosts aside from Dusclops seem inadequate. A Scrapy Power-up Punch and +1Mega-Crunch seems to KO the whole lot of them. And... I don't really know what to do about that.
Despite your analysis, standard Substitute Gengar ought to win actually. Gengar's battle plan is:
1. Substitute
2. Disable
3. Focus Blast
Khanga might prefer to run Crunch for this reason. Its the same power and much more reliable.
As far as counters... all the ghosts aside from Dusclops seem inadequate. A Scrapy Power-up Punch and +1Mega-Crunch seems to KO the whole lot of them. And... I don't really know what to do about that.
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UltiMario is correct. After checking the top 50 most common Pokemon in last month's usage, only Garchomp is faster than Mega Kangaskhan out of the Pokemon that would want to switch into Mega Kanga, and even then it's a really shaky check. Remove Bulldoze from all sets and sorry for telling you to slash it in the first place.
I really feel like Crunch should get a slash with EQ/Bulldoze. Granted two unSTABbed dark moves may seem trivial, but the fact is that without it you are completely stonewalled by Gourgheist, SubDisableGar, and Trevenant . It's got great neutral coverage and a solid 36% chance to lower defense at least once, making it not totally niche. If you add it in mention that Mindgames must be played against Aegislash between Sucker Punch and Crunch to dodge the King's Shield, but doesn't leave you completely helpless.