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Pokémon Blaziken
- Thread starter Spenstar
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Are we arguing about mega blaziken?
I fully expect mega blaziken to be ubers, but I expected normal blaziken to stay in OU due to the new threats and dangers of using him.
Those are more like checks as opposed a true counter.
I'm not sure about other people. But I am upset not because blaziken was banned, but the fact that it was (gre)ninja banned without a fair suspect test.
I'm sure Aldaron and co. will probably have good reasons to ban it so soon. I hope.
I don't know what you call true counters but Talonflame and Azumaril can literally both 1 shot Blaziken with unboosted priority. 100% of the time, 100% free.
252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 549-647 (181.78 - 214.23%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 320-378 (105.96 - 125.16%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Pretty sure Jellicent, Rotom-W and Gliscor can all also take like 3-4 hits from any move of blazikens and OHKO or 2HKO back.
Delphox also counters blaziken pretty well though, type wise at least, as it has an effective STAB vs blaziken, while neither of blaziken's stabs can really hurt delphox back. Come to think of it, doesn't Jellicent wall blaziken for the same reason? There's got to be more answers to this thing other than just talonflame now. Aerodactyl's mega should out speed it initially as well. Megapinsir's quick attack could also serve as an effective threat, due to aerilate's boost and it being a priority move. Noviern's typing gives it resistances to both stabs, so it might be effective, and unlike salamence or dragonite, it's also VERY fast. Azumaril...pretty much should straight up murder it. Sticky web negates the first two speed boosts out right, allowing the mon of your choice to pick it off at its leisure. There should be many more counters, but honestly I wouldn't say you need talonflame to counter this thing.
I just want to know if it's being banned because of it being a sweeper (ala Mega Blaziken) or a hard-hitter that can BP.
Talonflame and Azumaril (Add in Aerialate Mega Pincer Quick Attack courtesy of the guy above reminding me) still check Baton attempts with priority and the fact that Blaziken usually runs HJK as its fighting coverage means Russian roulette every time you face an opponent with a Ghost type.
Talonflame and Azumaril (Add in Aerialate Mega Pincer Quick Attack courtesy of the guy above reminding me) still check Baton attempts with priority and the fact that Blaziken usually runs HJK as its fighting coverage means Russian roulette every time you face an opponent with a Ghost type.
Oh I'm just saying that they are not a true counter because they can't switch in on blaziken easily. Those pokes can for sure ruin any blaziken's day once they are in though.
Because traditionally that's now how things have been done (at least from what I could see). There was no public discussion, it didn't seem to be a over-centralizing threat, no suspect testing, not even usage statistics and the worst part is it came out of nowhere. No other non-legend is banned, though some people feel others are worse.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 313-370 (79.44 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
One of the best switchins you get to this thing. If it switches in on Swords Dance then even better.
Hazards make it possible to OHKO. But then, if you've got a healthy Azumarill waiting in the wings, why would you wait for Blaziken to set up before sending it in anyway?
Why is that Blaziken is +2 AND Azumarill takes switch in damage? Aqua Jet OHKOs it (105.96 - 125.16%). But that's not the point, the point is we didn't have this chance: to talk about it and decide, the decision was simply made.
EDIT: CB Aqua Jet that is.
Talking about Blaziken being banned or unbanned is pretty much a waste of time, as far as I'm concerned. They need to nerf HJK or completely remove Speed Boost before I'd think about it being OU again.
Also, Azumarill is a counter. It wasn't last gen, dying to HJK after rocks, but it can take any one of Blaziken's moves at least once now. That's good enough.
Also, Azumarill is a counter. It wasn't last gen, dying to HJK after rocks, but it can take any one of Blaziken's moves at least once now. That's good enough.
Forgeting about Aqua jet? Sure it can 2HKO it if it can survive a Choiced Aqua jet from azumarril
252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 172-203 (42.57 - 50.24%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO
Azumarill can't switch in. You can bring it to revenge kill it once something on your team dies to Blaziken. In that case you are forced to play "the sack this to bring in Azumarill to check Blaziken" game.
252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 192 HP / 0 Def (custom): 170-201 (49.27 - 58.26%) -- 98.83% chance to 2HKO
Talonflame isnt a switch. You bring have to bring it in safely to revenge kill Blaziken. Considering SR is still common its not really a great check.
252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 199-234 (65.67 - 77.22%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Rotom-W gets 2HKO. Not a counter and lose check at that.
Granted Chandelure can switch in to HJK and any Fire move, you forget that Blaziken learns Shadow Claw. So Chandelure doesn't really stop it either. Okay there is lots of priority in Azumarill and Talonflame but neither one can switch in and are only Revenge Killers to Blaziken and lose ones at that. So there isn't anything that can safely switch in to it but it has two revenge killers one being 4x weak to SR and neither being bulky enough to be true checks to it. This isn't a problem to people?
I didn't even mention the mixed Blaziken set. This was just the pure SD set. If you want to analysis the Mixed set, I will be glad to do so.
As for people saying it was banned without a fair test. I'll say this: Having a test for this isn't going to change much. The council can make the decision to quick ban things that are just absurdly too strong for OU without the need for a test. Even if it was tested was it really going to change the outcome? Instead of wasting a whole month to test it to just confirm what everyone already knows is a waste of time that could be used to test something else.
Going to quote an old post Haunter made:
I'm sure the OU Council had a good reason for quickbanning Blaziken and they said they would post an explanation soon. Chill out and see what they have to say before pulling out the torches and pitchforks.
I'm sure the OU Council had a good reason for quickbanning Blaziken and they said they would post an explanation soon. Chill out and see what they have to say before pulling out the torches and pitchforks.
I'm not sure why Azumarill and Talonflame would need to not be 2HKOed, given that they have priority?
The stops to Blaziken are too limited to expect everyone to have one. But let's not devalue what those stops can do.
Again, Azumarill gets 2HKO'd while it 1HKO's blaziken back. So really, sure Azumarill took some damage but it still won. Talonflame wins without SR being up
Thats just your opinion though. Clearly as you can see in this thread, people are divided. It doesn't mean they can't be swayed and the decision wouldn't be the same later. We need to talk about it and decide. It isn't clearly broken, I'd guess that if the metagame got a chance to settle down, it would probably be less broken then gen 4 chomp which we had a test for.
Azumarill is a counter though, it takes damage and OHKOs with Aqua Jet. What about Jellicent? Chandelure has to be worried about Shadow Claw now? So Blaziken doesn't have the chance to Protect for the speed boost? This is typical of suspects. Give it as many moves as it needs to kill all its counters. Find a counter for Kyurem-B. You probably can't list more than one or two. Is it broken? Not even close.
Again the point is: we NEED to have the discussion. I have no problem with anything being banned after a month of discussion. I didn't think Salamence was broken way back (was it gen 4?). Did I have a problem after the banning? No. Because the best players decided after a lengthy discussion that it was.
I think another important thing to note is that while touting HJK stopping check switch ins is all fine and dandy, HJK'ing into an Aegislash (and don't go trying to say Ghost types are uncommon at the moment, come on.) switch in is going to put Blaziken in a world of hurt, especially if it's taken hazard damage beforehand. From there Aegislash even has Shadow Sneak so the priority = hey presto.
Also, assuming you've HJK'd into a Ghost type. Any following Flare Blitzes are only going to serve to wittle down Blazikens remaining health even more, double so if using Life Orb.
I'm in no way trying to say that Blaziken doesn't deserve to get banned in future, but at this point it just sort of came out of no where and no-one seems to be even acknowledging all the stuff that throws a spanner in a Blaziken sweep.
Same goes with Talonflame, being as it can OHKO Blaziken to, while taking damage (Unless SR is up) but then you can run Adaptabillity Starmie, and what Blaziken is going to have thunderpunch Thunderpunch to no, and if it does then you know it's not likely running Shadowclaw(Which can kill starmie to can't it?) Then really, you can safely asume what MBlazikens move set it and act acordingly.
Besides isn't the primary set HJK, Protect, sword dance and Flareblitz?
So yes, I agree it isn't as broken as people try to make it.
If I were to use it I'd probably go Baton Pass/Stone Edge/Thunderpunch>Protect. Generally you want to switch Blaze into something that it can take any attack from, such as something like Heatran, Tyranitar, etc. that you can force out. You can then either set up or attack, depending on what you think your opponent will do. If faced with a defensive counter it can Baton Pass out. Azumarill and Talonflame still eat it alive though.
Also lol Starmie.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 32 Def Starmie: 286-338 (88.54 - 104.64%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
^"bulky" Rapid Spin set.
And Starmie gets Analytic not Adaptability.
There has been plenty of discussion on this. Just because there was no 'official' Blaziken thread filled with 80+ pages of people posting nonsense and linking bad replays doesn't mean that people haven't been talking about this. People have discussed this with their friends in real life, discussed it on streams several times, and posted on several forum sites about it. I don't know why anyone is pretending like this is out of the blue as if no-one has previously given any thought as to whether this would get re-banned in XY or tested counters.
The only complaint one could make is that it's nice seeing the exact reasoning justifying a ban, which I agree with and is apparently being written up so yeah i don't see what the fuss us about. Baton Pass Speed Boost on something as deadly as Blaziken is just crazy good. You will wreck shop as Blaziken unless they bring in their counter, in which case you baton pass to something else on your team designed to take care of that counter while keeping the boosts in tact. The fact that so many people use the HighJumpKick/FlareBlitz/StoneEdge/Swords Dance or Protect set just goes to show how worthless a giant thread discussing this would be. That set get's checked left right and center yet I see it way more than the Baton Pass ones. We would have 80 pages of people citing nonsense like "Ninjask can Speed Boost Baton Pass and if it's not broken then Blaziken can't be either".
The only complaint one could make is that it's nice seeing the exact reasoning justifying a ban, which I agree with and is apparently being written up so yeah i don't see what the fuss us about. Baton Pass Speed Boost on something as deadly as Blaziken is just crazy good. You will wreck shop as Blaziken unless they bring in their counter, in which case you baton pass to something else on your team designed to take care of that counter while keeping the boosts in tact. The fact that so many people use the HighJumpKick/FlareBlitz/StoneEdge/Swords Dance or Protect set just goes to show how worthless a giant thread discussing this would be. That set get's checked left right and center yet I see it way more than the Baton Pass ones. We would have 80 pages of people citing nonsense like "Ninjask can Speed Boost Baton Pass and if it's not broken then Blaziken can't be either".
Neither if those things are exactly good switch ins. Sure they win 1v1 but Blaziken isn't stay in but when was the last time you've seen a person leave Blaziken in on Azumarill or Talonflame. The issue that you two clearly missed is that you guys are saying these two can beat it but neither can switch into it. You come in and take about 50% from HJK and now what do you do next time it comes in? Azumarill can't heal off the damage and Talonflame will likely not take chances and go for Brave Bird weakening it even more. These two are checks that only win 1v1 and thats it. I'm not sure why you are assuming people are going to staying to try and finish off the kill when the damage need is done.
Blaziken is brought up just about everyday on IRC and the vast majority of people agreed that it needs to be banned. Aladaron himself said he never wanted this thing in OU as it was too good even with Azumarill and Talonflame being around. Jellicent isnt really a switch in either: 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 187-221 (46.4 - 54.83%) -- 99.61% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock but having Shadow Claw means you don't have SD since you can't drop Protect. Even without SD it hits ridiculously hard and can still beat teams without boosting.
I've never said Ghost types were uncommon nor was I ever going to say that. Sure you can't spam HJK when Aegislash is running about. However people forget that Blaziken has 110 SpA and can just Fire Blast or Overheat it's way past Aegislash and not worry about King's Shield's shenanigans.
Everyone in this thread needs to calm down and wait for Aldaron to post about why the decision was made.
Does anyone talking about Ghosts actually use Blaziken? >_> People rarely switch their Ghost in on Blaziken in a real battle. They need it to check other Pokemon, and the chance of the Ghost dying is too high. If you need to put a teammate in danger of an immediate KO just to damage the attacker then the gamble was never in your favor.
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