All of those fillers seem inferior to Endeavor.
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[COMPLETED] Smeargle
- Thread starter dragonuser
- Start date
All of those fillers seem inferior to Endeavor.
Endeavor does nothing to stop set up sweepers from setting up all over your face after you have put something to sleep with Spore. The fact that it has only 8 pp means that the opponent can just spam the set up move of his choice and stall you out of pp, and then KO you. All the other moves on the last slot can do something useful against set up sweepers, which is the reason that they are superior options. Endeavor is still good enough for AC though.
Agree w/ alexwolf
added a mention of Endeavor in AC
added a mention of Endeavor in AC
I was unaware that Smeargle isn't allowed to switch out after using Endeavor.
Ok if you want to use that logic, then sure switch out and give them a free SD boost etc and let them then ravage your team. Regardless, its pointless attempting to theorymon the match by saying "I can then switch out to a perfect counter to them that doesn't care if they just got +2"
The point being, that the other "filler" moves do have uses, and both alexwolf and I see them as being more useful than endeavor in the majority of battles. However, I do see the merit in Endeavor, which is why I mentioned it in AC. If you do still believe that Endeavor should get a main slash (something I don't think I would be wholly opposed to) then it may be more helpful to provide concrete evidence (lead matchups etc) rather than random theorymonning which has little to no use.
The point being, that the other "filler" moves do have uses, and both alexwolf and I see them as being more useful than endeavor in the majority of battles. However, I do see the merit in Endeavor, which is why I mentioned it in AC. If you do still believe that Endeavor should get a main slash (something I don't think I would be wholly opposed to) then it may be more helpful to provide concrete evidence (lead matchups etc) rather than random theorymonning which has little to no use.
Smeargle can switch in later and use Endeavor; there's nothing dictating that it needs to play all of its cards against the opposing lead, then die. This metagame has many Pokemon that are slower, and it's not difficult to predict or Volt/Turn to Smeargle for free, and cripple something as a swan song. I see Endeavor being far far more useful than any of the listed fillers. Just for kicks, I took a quick poll of people on IRC (experienced battlers) though I received mostly troll answers. However, these were the only relevant comments:
[00:36] <MrE> parting shot >>> memento
[00:36] <&JibaNOTHERE> Endeavor
Overall I think you dodged the point I was making, but nevertheless after some thought I have decided to give Endeavor the third slash in the main moveset, eliminating Whirlwind from the analysis. I see the merit in using it, but I still see more merit in using the other two in the majority of matches (and you have in no way convinced me otherwise with the arguments you made in this thread). And Endeavor does still have its large faults in that, "Ok I bring you down to 1HP, but now you can setup even more with nothing to fear." To convince me to make it the primary/only slash, I'd much rather you post logs of matches or at least scenarios where Endeavor is overall better than the other 2 options, rather than just posting that a named player supports one option as that gets us essentially nowhere as numerous "named" players also support the opposing side.
Anyways, Whirlwinds main use was to employ use of hazards while preventing setup sweepers, the latter of which is done better by memento and the former can also be done by Endeavor.
Anyways, Whirlwinds main use was to employ use of hazards while preventing setup sweepers, the latter of which is done better by memento and the former can also be done by Endeavor.
adding some thought on the last moveslot discussion, if you don´t mind
from my experience it depends on the play style your team will have more trouble with
I found taunt and also Lunar Dance very good against stall teams, because Smeargle was often surviving the first turns against them
against offensive teams Whirlwind was often better, but that is also true for my way of battling and Smeargle was very frequently not alive to do it in those kind of matches
maybe you can reflect about the general difference of the utility slot in Smeargles set and mention lunar dance under honorable alternatives (oo or what you think)
nevertheless the analysis looks very nice
from my experience it depends on the play style your team will have more trouble with
I found taunt and also Lunar Dance very good against stall teams, because Smeargle was often surviving the first turns against them
against offensive teams Whirlwind was often better, but that is also true for my way of battling and Smeargle was very frequently not alive to do it in those kind of matches
maybe you can reflect about the general difference of the utility slot in Smeargles set and mention lunar dance under honorable alternatives (oo or what you think)
nevertheless the analysis looks very nice
I actually disagree with this statement. I switch back to my Smeargle quite a bit throughout my games, and I really appreciate the added momentum Parting Shot brings. If you suspect a Grass-switch in the first turn, like Trevenant/Gourgeist, Parting Shotting out generally makes them both switch out. Parting Shot is also a really nice source of momentum throught the entirety of the battle, as a last minute Sash break on their sweeper. Another thing I like about Parting Shot is that if a Magic Bouncer is in, it forces said Bouncer to switch out.
I'd easily argue Parting Shot for the third slot over Whirlwind/Endeavor, or at least a mention.
I run a
Geomancy
Spore
Kings Sheild
Baton Pass
set on a smeargle and baton pass it to a cosmic power bulky clefable and I have been having a lot of success with it. It can be countered pretty easily but with a few cosmic powers and stored power it obliterates everything. The only surefire way to stop it once I've set up is with Sturdy Skarmory + Whirlwind.
I'd like to add an alternative 4th move to the first set, one which IMO should be used over the current options: Parting Shot. The only other Pokemon to learn it is Pangoro, but his Speed makes him a poor candidate for using it, however it is wonderful on Smeargle because it is easy to predict a switch after a Spore. It basically gives you a tempo and allows you to preserve Smeargle for future use.
I second this. When I fought someone on random Wi-Fi with one, I thought it was very clever.