Pokémon Chesnaught (Revamp Occurring)

[Anartya]

Talonflame doesn't get Defog. Ferrothorn can set up in Skarmory and Crobat's face, although they do get Defog, unless it gets Whirlwinded. Meanwhile Chesnaught does zilch to either of the premier OU defoggers without Stone Edge.

If you switch to TTar while Crobat uses U-Turn that puts you in a bad place. Once the Defogger switches into Chesnaught, they can do whatever they want, while you have to switch.

Skarmory is easily trapped by Gengar/Magnezone. But it gets Defog, one of two currently OU-viable mons to do so. You have to play a lot more carefully with it nowadays. But that's irrelevant to the Chesnaught discussion.

With Chesnaught, it's a bit easier to remove his hazards, simply because the two main Defoggers and two popular Rapid Spinners in OU force him out very easily, and three of those mons can switch into him too. Plus Forretress doesn't have to Spin, it can Volt Switch out of your obvious Aegislash. Crobat can U-Turn out of your obvious Tyranitar. Skarmory doesn't even have to run Defog, it can just set up its own hazards and start doing its own phazing.

If you look below Crobat and Skarmory as Defoggers you have a whole ton of Flying-types come Pokebank, so then it'll be a lot harder to use Chesnaught. Unless you run Stone Edge over Roar or Hammer Arm.

Newsflash: What can Ferrothorn or Forretress do against Defoggers? But for some reason, you seem to have this illusion in your mind that having a 4x weakness to flying somehow makes you more vulnerable to defog. Defog can only be stopped by Taunt! The only pokemon that has access to Spikes and fast enough to Taunt, is Deoxys-S. So by your logic, it's also easy to remove ferrothorn and forretress's hazards as well. Let me make this clear, Defog is not a good argument. Every OU Spike user outside of Deoxys-S, cannot do anything about Defog, it's not something exclusive to Chesnaught. Also, if you have been playing Showdown, you should realize that most teams carry Excadrill with rapid spin over a defog user. Why? Well mainly because Excadrill is the only Rapid Spinner that can't be spin blocked due to it's ability to defeat every spin blocker in the game! That's why there are very few people that use Defog. Any team that carries a Defogger, mainly use Defog under extreme situations when there are too many hazards set on their side.

Anyways, back to the point, there are only 3 good spikers in BW2 OU, Skarmory, Foretress and Ferrothorn. Chesnaught will be an excellent addition to this mainly because of it's ability to check/counter and set up spikes on the best Rapid Spinner in the game, Excadrill. But in addition, many teams require a bulky grass pivot. Most people opt for Mega Venusaur, but a lot of teams don't have a Mega Slot. Chesnaught has more defensive bulk than Mega Venusaur, and should always be considered for a slot on any team, because it can also provide valuable hazard and phazing capabilites as well as being a bulky grass pivot, something that Mega Venusaur can't provide.

 

[AOPSUser]

Newsflash: What can Ferrothorn or Forretress do against Defoggers? But for some reason, you seem to have this illusion in your mind that having a 4x weakness to flying somehow makes you more vulnerable to defog. Defog can only be stopped by Taunt! The only pokemon that has access to Spikes and fast enough to Taunt, is Deoxys-S. So by your logic, it's also easy to remove ferrothorn and forretress's hazards as well. Let me make this clear, Defog is not a good argument. Every OU Spike user outside of Deoxys-S, cannot do anything about Defog. Also, if you have been playing Showdown, you should realize that most teams carry Excadrill with rapid spin over a defog user. Why? Well mainly because Excadrill is the only Rapid Spinner that can't be spin blocked due to it's ability to defeat every spin blocker in the game! That's why there are very few people that use Defog. Any team that carries a Defogger, mainly use Defog under extreme situations when there are too many hazards set on their side.

Anyways, back to the point, there are only 3 good spikers in BW2 OU, Skarmory, Foretress and Ferrothorn. Chesnaught will be an excellent addition to this mainly because of it's ability to check/counter and set up spikes on the best Rapid Spinner in the game, Excadrill. But in addition, many teams require a bulky grass pivot. Most people opt for Mega Venusaur, but a lot of teams don't have a Mega Slot. Chesnaught has more defensive bulk than Mega Venusaur, and should always be considered for a slot on any team, because it can also provide valuable hazard and phazing capabilites as well as being a bulky grass pivot, something that Mega Venusaur can't provide.

Well, Defog users can't really do any damage to Ferrothorn, Forretress, or Skarmory can they? So you can stay in on them if you like. Skarmory can Whirlwind and Ferrothorn can keep Leech Seeding until the Defog user quits. Forretress can Volt Switch out if it needs to. Also it's really risky to Defog Klefki thanks to Swagger (which no serious player runs) and the more useful Thunder Wave (which every Klefki runs). Chesnaught simply has to switch or risk getting OHKOed by Brave Bird.

Also apart from Excadrill what Rapid Spinners does Chesnaught really stop? And unless you're already in battle (in which case Excadrill isn't switching in), it's just going to Spin and leave. Really, it's no different from other Rapid Spinners other than that it has offensive presence (and so does Starmie). And it's not like everyone uses Exca either, the majority of teams do not have an Exca, and instead have a Spinner that Chesnaught can't beat, like Forretress, Starmie, or a Defogger.

 

[meteor64]

Well mainly because Excadrill is the only Rapid Spinner that can't be spin blocked due to it's ability to defeat every spin blocker in the game!

Actually Mega Blastoise does this too, just no-one fancies using their Mega slot for a support mon. They should consider it, hes actually really solid outside of Rapid Spin.

And as for no-one using Defog, thats not so much down to just Excadrill as it is that Defog is just pretty hard to find a place for on a moveset. The only thing that really has room for it is Mandibuzz off the top of my head, which is another poke that needs some serious love, because it got a hell of a lot of buffs this gen. Thngs like Skarm and Scizor and even Zapdos kind of already have 4 more important things to do. Not to mention Defoggers are weak to SR most of the time.

 

[Anartya]

Well, Defog users can't really do any damage to Ferrothorn, Forretress, or Skarmory can they? So you can stay in on them if you like. Skarmory can Whirlwind and Ferrothorn can keep Leech Seeding until the Defog user quits. Forretress can Volt Switch out if it needs to. Also it's really risky to Defog Klefki thanks to Swagger (which no serious player runs) and the more useful Thunder Wave (which every Klefki runs). Chesnaught simply has to switch or risk getting OHKOed by Brave Bird.

Also apart from Excadrill what Rapid Spinners does Chesnaught really stop? And unless you're already in battle (in which case Excadrill isn't switching in), it's just going to Spin and leave. Really, it's no different from other Rapid Spinners other than that it has offensive presence (and so does Starmie). And it's not like everyone uses Exca either, the majority of teams do not have an Exca, and instead have a Spinner that Chesnaught can't beat, like Forretress, Starmie, or a Defogger.

Lets see, well since Aegislash and Gengar are at the top of the usage, Rapid Spinner this Gen need Earthquake. So Donphan comes to mind, which obviously cannot beat Chesnaught one-on-one and spinning spikes away will just make Chesnaught set them up again on the switch. Also, Defog users always carry Taunt (i.e Crobat. Mandibuzz, and Skarmory), so neither Ferrothorn nor Forretress can do anything about it.

Actually Mega Blastoise does this too, just no-one fancies using their Mega slot for a support mon. They should consider it, hes actually really solid outside of Rapid Spin.

And as for no-one using Defog, thats not so much down to just Excadrill as it is that Defog is just pretty hard to find a place for on a moveset. The only thing that really has room for it is Mandibuzz off the top of my head, which is another poke that needs some serious love, because it got a hell of a lot of buffs this gen. Thngs like Skarm and Scizor and even Zapdos kind of already have 4 more important things to do. Not to mention Defoggers are weak to SR most of the time.

Either way, Excadrill usage is higher than Defog or other Rapid Spinners. Standard Mega Blastoise in addition to Rapid Spin carry Aura Sphere (Bulletproof), Dark Pulse (resists) and Water Pulse (Resists). If Chesnaught becomes popular then it may carry start to carry Ice Beam, in which case it is problematic, but at the moment no. And again it occupies a Mega slot, so usage will be low.

 

[meteor64]

Well, Defog users can't really do any damage to Ferrothorn, Forretress, or Skarmory can they? So you can stay in on them if you like. Skarmory can Whirlwind and Ferrothorn can keep Leech Seeding until the Defog user quits. Forretress can Volt Switch out if it needs to.

Would just like to point out that Mandibuzz totally shuts these down with Taunt...

 

[AOPSUser]

Lets see, well since Aegislash and Gengar are at the top of the usage, Rapid Spinner this Gen need Earthquake. So Donphan comes to mind, which obviously cannot beat Chesnaught one-on-one and spinning spikes away will just make Chesnaught set them up again on the switch. Also, Defog users always carry Taunt (i.e Crobat. Mandibuzz, and Skarmory), so neither Ferrothorn nor Forretress can do anything about it.

Rapid Spinners don't need Earthquake. It's a nice tool to have though, but I squish by just fine with a Forretress, for example. And I don't think Excadrill gets past Gourgeist with or without Earthquake.

Also if you run Defog+Taunt on Skarmory that kinda harms your ability to do much. The others can run Taunt but in their case it's a tossup between Taunt and Defog, where you have to predict the Volt Switch from Forretress, predict the Thunder Wave from Ferrothorn, and so on. If you mispredict you can end up with a bad matchup or a crippled Crobat easily.

Mandibuzz DGAF about those but its Knock Off and Taunt hurt Chesnaught as much and its Whirlwind can counter-phase Chesnaught.

 

[Anartya]

Rapid Spinners don't need Earthquake. It's a nice tool to have though, but I squish by just fine with a Forretress, for example. And I don't think Excadrill gets past Gourgeist with or without Earthquake.

Also if you run Defog+Taunt on Skarmory that kinda harms your ability to do much. The others can run Taunt but in their case it's a tossup between Taunt and Defog, where you have to predict the Volt Switch from Forretress, predict the Thunder Wave from Ferrothorn, and so on. If you mispredict you can end up with a bad matchup or a crippled Crobat easily.

Mandibuzz DGAF about those but its Knock Off and Taunt hurt Chesnaught as much and its Whirlwind can counter-phase Chesnaught.

0 Atk Mandibuzz Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 23-27 (6 - 7.1%)

This is harmful?

Neither Chesnaught, Foretress nor Ferrothorn will ever stay in on Mandibuzz, so again it's not something exclusive to Chesnaught. If a Defog user doesn't have taunt, it is completely useless against Ferrothorn (i.e the most popular hazards setter in the game). If your defogger can't stop Ferrothorn, then it's a pretty useless Defogger. Gorgeist is very unpopular, everyone uses Trevenant because Gorgeist has no reliable recovery move!

 

[AOPSUser]

0 Atk Mandibuzz Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 23-27 (6 - 7.1%)

This is harmful?

Neither Chesnaught, Foretress nor Ferrothorn will ever stay in on Mandibuzz, so again it's not something exclusive to Chesnaught. If a Defog user doesn't have taunt, it is completely useless against Ferrothorn (i.e the most popular hazards setter in the game). If your defogger can't stop Ferrothorn, then it's a pretty useless Defogger.

Chesnaught loses its Leftovers. And it's not like it does much more to Ferrothorn.

But with Taunt, you have to time the Taunt right. You don't want to use Defog on Forretress with Crobat as it Volt Switches to Tyranitar. You don't want to Defog Ferrothorn as it uses Thunder Wave. You don't want to U-Turn that Forretress predicting Volt Switch only for it to keep stacking Spikes. With Chesnaught you switch in, and assuming it doesn't have Stone Edge as per the set listed above, it switches. Or it can stay in and risk dying right away.

 

[Anartya]

Chesnaught loses its Leftovers. And it's not like it does much more to Ferrothorn.

But with Taunt, you have to time the Taunt right. You don't want to use Defog on Forretress with Crobat as it Volt Switches to Tyranitar. You don't want to Defog Ferrothorn as it uses Thunder Wave. You don't want to U-Turn that Forretress predicting Volt Switch only for it to keep stacking Spikes. With Chesnaught you switch in, and assuming it doesn't have Stone Edge as per the set listed above, it switches. Or it can stay in and risk dying right away.

You seem to forget something about Mandibuzz without Brave Bird (They mainly carry Taunt Roost Defog and Foul Play/Knock off) and Roost. It looses it's flying typing (i.e. it's pure dark) Chesnaught has hammer arm. Since you love to make claims without any damage calculations let me show you:

0 Atk Chesnaught Hammer Arm vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 158-188 (37.2 - 44.3%)

It's not a 2HKO, but does Mandibuzz threaten Chesnaught, not really.

And can you please stop arguing over this for the past few pages. Stop going around in circles and give me one solid reason why Chesnaught specifically is not viable as Spiker in OU, since you seem to dislike it so much?

 

[meteor64]

Chesnaught loses its Leftovers. And it's not like it does much more to Ferrothorn.

But with Taunt, you have to time the Taunt right. You don't want to use Defog on Forretress with Crobat as it Volt Switches to Tyranitar. You don't want to Defog Ferrothorn as it uses Thunder Wave. You don't want to U-Turn that Forretress predicting Volt Switch only for it to keep stacking Spikes. With Chesnaught you switch in, and assuming it doesn't have Stone Edge as per the set listed above, it switches. Or it can stay in and risk dying right away.

Not to mention uninvested Stone Edge from Chesnaught tickles Mandibuzz anyway.

You seem to forget something about Mandibuzz without Brave Bird (They mainly carry Taunt Roost Defog and Foul Play/Knock off) and Roost. It looses it's flying typing (i.e. it's pure dark) Chesnaught has hammer arm. Since you love to make claims without any damage calculations let me show you:

0 Atk Chesnaught Hammer Arm vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 158-188 (37.2 - 44.3%)

Dude, thats not even a 2hko, Mandibuzz can just Roost stall you anyway lol

 

[AOPSUser]

You seem to forget something about Mandibuzz without Brave Bird (They mainly carry Taunt Roost Defog and Foul Play/Knock off) and Roost. It looses it's flying typing (i.e. it's pure dark) Chesnaught has hammer arm. Since you love to make claims without any damage calculations let me show you:

0 Atk Chesnaught Hammer Arm vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 158-188 (37.2 - 44.3%)

It's not a 2HKO, but does Mandibuzz threaten Chesnaught, not really.

And can you please stop arguing over this for the past few pages. Stop going around in circles and give me one solid reason why Chesnaught specifically is not viable as Spiker in OU, since you seem to dislike it so much?

Mandibuzz carries Whirlwind a lot of the time, so Chesnaught can be sent out.

Chesnaught is gigantic Defog bait, since the only good Defogger he can beat reliably is Empoleon (assuming he is not at -1 Speed already, since Empoleon has Ice Beam). He loses hard to the top three mons in OU, all of which have more than 25% usage currently. It only beats one OU Rapid Spinner and that's Excadrill since Donphan can take his Hammer Arm, Spin, and leave, and Forretress can Spin and leave, and Starmie just kills him, and Mega Blastoise should probably be running Ice Beam. These factors make him really hard to use in OU.

If you use Stone Edge you have to forgo either STAB or Roar or Leech Seed, which means stuff like Aegislash walk all over him even more. Without Stone Edge it's giant setup bait for Talonflame, which isn't really a good thing to be.

You can use Chesnaught in OU, yes, but it's hard to use at this point. Honestly I'd just wait for all the hype surrouding Aegislash/Greninja/Talonflame to die down first.

 

[Anartya]

Not to mention uninvested Stone Edge from Chesnaught tickles Mandibuzz anyway.


Dude, thats not even a 2hko, Mandibuzz can just Roost stall you anyway lol

Can you please read, I said it wasn't a 2HKO:

[quote="Anartya, post: 5022145, member: 92852"}
0 Atk Chesnaught Hammer Arm vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 158-188 (37.2 - 44.3%)

It's not a 2HKO, but does Mandibuzz threaten Chesnaught, not really.[/quote]

My point is that Mandibuzz doesn't threaten Chesnaught.

 

[Anartya]

Mandibuzz carries Whirlwind a lot of the time, so Chesnaught can be sent out.

Chesnaught is gigantic Defog bait, since the only good Defogger he can beat reliably is Empoleon (assuming he is not at -1 Speed already, since Empoleon has Ice Beam). He loses hard to the top three mons in OU, all of which have more than 25% usage currently. It only beats one OU Rapid Spinner and that's Excadrill since Donphan can take his Hammer Arm, Spin, and leave, and Forretress can Spin and leave, and Starmie just kills him, and Mega Blastoise should probably be running Ice Beam. These factors make him really hard to use in OU.

I'm asking you once again! How are Ferrothorn and Forretress not Defog bait as well? Give me one solid reason.

 

[AOPSUser]

I'm asking you once again! How are Ferrothorn and Forretress not Defog bait? Give me one solid reason.

Defoggers can't touch them outside of Defog. Even with Defog and Taunt, you need prediction to pull that off since Ferrothorn can T-Wave your Crobat and Forretress can Volt Switch out.

Meanwhile Chesnaught is OHKOed by some attack on every Defogger. Some Defoggers don't run Flying-type attacks but those can take attacks from Chesnaught fairly easily and Whirlwind him out or Toxic him in the case of Gligar.

 

[meteor64]

Can you please read, I said it wasn't a 2HKO:

[quote="Anartya, post: 5022145, member: 92852"}
0 Atk Chesnaught Hammer Arm vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 158-188 (37.2 - 44.3%)

It's not a 2HKO, but does Mandibuzz threaten Chesnaught, not really.

My point is that Mandibuzz doesn't threaten Chesnaught.

And my point is that Chesnaught doesn't threaten Mandibuzz either. When a super-effective STAB attack with base 100 power cannot 2hko something with instant recovery, then its not a threat in any way. So its a moot point. Mandibuzz comes in, Taunts you, then you're locked into doing nothing significant. Momentum advantage to Mandibuzz team.

SE Hammer Arm isn't even a 3hko the vast majority of the time since Mandibuzz gets Lefties even through Sand

 

[Anartya]

Defoggers can't touch them outside of Defog. Even with Defog and Taunt, you need prediction to pull that off since Ferrothorn can T-Wave your Crobat and Forretress can Volt Switch out.

Meanwhile Chesnaught is OHKOed by some attack on every Defogger. Some Defoggers don't run Flying-type attacks but those can take attacks from Chesnaught fairly easily and Whirlwind him out or Toxic him in the case of Gligar.

You know, you will need prediction with Chesnaught as well. I can stay in, you defog away and then I set up spikes again. Then you go for brave bird, but I switch to CB Terrakion for example. So you have spikes on your field and Terrakion can threaten Mandibuzz out. Predictions can go both ways you know. So it's not a valid argument.

 

[AOPSUser]

You know, you will need prediction with Chesnaught as well. I can stay in, you defog away and then I set up spikes again. Then you go for brave bird, but I switch to CB Terrakion for example. So you have spikes on your field and Terrakion can threaten Mandibuzz out. Predictions can go both ways you know. So it's not a valid argument.

You are risking your Chesnaught for a 50/50 prediction that ends in you having done nothing (Defog->Spikes), or results in you being killed. Basically:

Chesnaught:
-If Defog and Spikes, nothing happens
-If Taunt and Spikes, nothing happens
-If Brave Bird and Spikes, you die for nothing

Meanwhile with Forretress the prediction is:
-If Defog and Spikes, nothing happens
-If Defog and Volt Switch, you get an amazing matchup in exchange for Spikes.
-If Taunt and Volt Switch, you get an amazing matchup for free
-If Taunt and Spikes, nothing happens
-If Brave Bird and Spikes, you lose ~20% of your HP for a layer of Spikes.
-If Brave Bird and Volt Switch, you lose ~20% of your HP for an amazing matchup.

It's not worth it for Chesnaught to stay in, but it is worth it for Forretress to stay in and either reset Spikes or Volt Switch. That's the difference.

It's a similar case for Ferrothorn.

 

[FlameUser64]

Defoggers that use SE moves that make contact get their Focus Sashes or Sturdy broken by chip damage from Spiky Shield before Chesnaught switches. Hint: don't try to use Spikes when a Defogger is in.

Also Chesnaught owns a large number of Rapid Spinners, and can prove useful for things other than Spin counter + Hazards. I dunno if all those Goodra have their Special Attack and Physical Defence completely uninvested or what, but it's funny to eat a Fire Blast like it's candy and OHKO with 4 Atk Hammer Atm.

 

[AOPSUser]

Defoggers that use SE moves that make contact get their Focus Sashes or Sturdy broken by chip damage from Spiky Shield before Chesnaught switches. Hint: don't try to use Spikes when a Defogger is in.

Also Chesnaught owns a large number of Rapid Spinners.

The Chesnaught set listed doesn't run Spiky Shield. Very few do. It doesn't really have slots for it.

Also Chesnaught beats...Excadrill in terms of OU Spinners. It has no chance against Forretress, Starmie, Tentacruel (lol who uses that anymore), or Donphan (since most do not run Seed Bomb).

 

[Anartya]

You are risking your Chesnaught for a 50/50 prediction that ends in you having done nothing (Defog->Spikes), or results in you being killed. Basically:

Chesnaught:
-If Defog and Spikes, nothing happens
-If Taunt and Spikes, nothing happens
-If Brave Bird and Spikes, you die for nothing

Meanwhile with Forretress the prediction is:
-If Defog and Spikes, nothing happens
-If Defog and Volt Switch, you get an amazing matchup in exchange for Spikes.
-If Taunt and Volt Switch, you get an amazing matchup for free
-If Taunt and Spikes, nothing happens
-If Brave Bird and Spikes, you lose ~20% of your HP for a layer of Spikes.
-If Brave Bird and Volt Switch, you lose ~20% of your HP for an amazing matchup.

It's not worth it for Chesnaught to stay in, but it is worth it for Forretress to stay in and either reset Spikes or Volt Switch. That's the difference.

It's a similar case for Ferrothorn.

One can outplay that opponent in either circumstance. I still see no reason not to use Chesnaught. You are merely making up circumstances that are probabalistically likely in oder to validate your argument. But you have yet convince me why the sole purpose of a defogger (to remove hazards) fails under the circumstance where the Defogger is facing Forretress or Ferrothorn. Hazards will be removed, period. You can't stop that, period. Therefore all of Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Chesnaught's role as a dedicated spiker is rendered useless. It is NOT exclusive to Chesnaught.

 

[meteor64]

tbh I dont even know why you would use Brave Bird on mandibuzz, Foul play is all it needs. Brave Bird from 55 base attack isn't hurting anything except Heracross/Breloom/Chesnaught, of which the only threat is Heracross kinda

You know, you will need prediction with Chesnaught as well. I can stay in, you defog away and then I set up spikes again. Then you go for brave bird, but I switch to CB Terrakion for example. So you have spikes on your field and Terrakion can threaten Mandibuzz out. Predictions can go both ways you know. So it's not a valid argument.

Why would I Brave Bird when I can just Defog again at no risk? Its not like I risk giving you momentum with Defog that I wouldn't give with any of Mandibuzz's other moves- like, you switch to Terrakion and I use ANY move and its pretty much a free switch for you. Which essentially amounts to exactly what the point is in the first place, the best thing for Chesnaught to do against any defogger is just switch out because it can't do jack to them.

 

[Anartya]

tbh I dont even know why you would use Brave Bird on mandibuzz, Foul play is all it needs. Brave Bird from 55 base attack isn't hurting anything except Heracross/Breloom/Chesnaught, of which the only threat is Heracross kinda
Why would I Brave Bird when I can just Defog again at no risk? Its not like I risk giving you momentum with Defog that I wouldn't give with any of Mandibuzz's other moves- like, you switch to Terrakion and I use ANY move and its pretty much a free switch for you. Which essentially amounts to exactly what the point is in the first place, the best thing for Chesnaught to do against any defogger is just switch out because it can't do jack to them.

I really don't care about who outplays whom, I want a valid reason why Chesnaught is not viable in OU. That's all.

 

[AOPSUser]

One can outplay that opponent in either circumstance. I still see no reason not to use Chesnaught. You are merely making up circumstances that are probabalistically likely in oder to validate your argument. But you have yet convince me why the sole purpose of a defogger (to remove hazards) fails under the circumstance where the Defogger is facing Forretress or Ferrothorn. Hazards will be removed, period. You can't stop that, period. Therefore all of Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Chesnaught's role as a dedicated spiker is rendered useless. It is NOT exclusive to Chesnaught.

Hazards are removed, but with correct prediction on that Spiker, you can severely cripple that Defogger or put it into a very bad position. It's not a big deal unless you've already set up all your hazards. Whereas for Chesnaught even if you predict correctly you still win nothing.

Chesnaught isn't a dedicated spiker in that set so it's pretty safe to assume that Forretress and Ferrothorn aren't running dedicated Spiking sets either for the sake of comparison.

 

[meteor64]

Tentacruel (lol who uses that anymore)

actually Tenta is still super legit, Liquid Ooze screws with Ferro and any Trevenant using Horn Leech, plus Sludge Bomb is actually kinda viable and lets it flat out beat Azumarill. Plus it can Knock Off. Imo much better spinner than Exca.

 

[meteor64]

I really don't care about who outplays whom, I want a valid reason why Chesnaught is not viable in OU. That's all.

Then why would you bring up all this stuff in the first place? You gave a bunch of arguments to support Chesnaught being able to deal with Mandibuzz. It doesn't.

Honestly, I'm not trying to make a point against Chesnaught in OU, but if you're going to make statements to defend him that just plain aren't true then you're not going to get very far at all.