Why would you run Aqua Tail or Earthquake for Volcarona / Heatran, respectively, when Hidden Power [Rock] or Hidden Power [Ground] accomplishes that while also damaging them so much more? Aqua Tail / Earthquake doesn't handle any other threats in particular that Goodra either a) wants to be dealing with or b) can't touch already.
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Pokémon Goodra [REVAMP]
- Thread starter TaBuu
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Why would you run Aqua Tail or Earthquake for Volcarona / Heatran, respectively, when Hidden Power [Rock] or Hidden Power [Ground] accomplishes that while also damaging them so much more? Aqua Tail / Earthquake doesn't handle any other threats in particular that Goodra either a) wants to be dealing with or b) can't touch already.
Hm true, but as I said, Volcarona would be spamming Quiver Dance + Roost, while heatran would be specially defensive.
Please go back and re-read my post. I included calculations for Specially Defensive Heatran. He loses.
Volcarona I will give you, though, since he probably wins by using Quiver Dance on the switch and then alternating between it and Roost. If he uses Roost on the switch, though, he loses. It's a 50/50 for the most part because it assumes the opponent had a free turn to Quiver Dance and could risk not Roosting, and also knows that he can force you out.
You people.
1. Why would you use Aqua Tail on Goodra when Muddy Water hits its targets for so much more damage?
2. Gooey is worthless.
3. Because there is absolutely no reason to do so. Goodras physical movepool is mediocre compared to what it's special movepool offers, and going mixed means losing overall firepower.
4. Hello? I thought you were actually being serious with your argument but I'm seriously questioning your knowledge now. Gooey only reduces your speed by one stage as long as you stay in. It's not for the rest for the fight. It's not going to benefit you in any way, shape or form because if your Goodra gets knocked out by a physical attacker (that uses a contact move) your opponent will just switch out on the check that you bring in next, regardless of whether or not Gooey activated. Sap Sipper lets you freely switch in on Spore, Leech Seed and any Grass move without taking any damage. It's by far the superior ability. You don't have to use the Atk boost just because you get it, and you're not wasting any potential by doing so. That's like saying Download on Genesect is useless if you get an attack boost when you need to kill a Skarmory. This has nothing to do with creativity, but viability and common sense. Nobody will ever hesitate to kill Goodra with Dragon Claw, I assure you that they won't think twice. Your argument is invalid.
1. Why would you use Aqua Tail on Goodra when Muddy Water hits its targets for so much more damage?
2. Gooey is worthless.
3. Because there is absolutely no reason to do so. Goodras physical movepool is mediocre compared to what it's special movepool offers, and going mixed means losing overall firepower.
4. Hello? I thought you were actually being serious with your argument but I'm seriously questioning your knowledge now. Gooey only reduces your speed by one stage as long as you stay in. It's not for the rest for the fight. It's not going to benefit you in any way, shape or form because if your Goodra gets knocked out by a physical attacker (that uses a contact move) your opponent will just switch out on the check that you bring in next, regardless of whether or not Gooey activated. Sap Sipper lets you freely switch in on Spore, Leech Seed and any Grass move without taking any damage. It's by far the superior ability. You don't have to use the Atk boost just because you get it, and you're not wasting any potential by doing so. That's like saying Download on Genesect is useless if you get an attack boost when you need to kill a Skarmory. This has nothing to do with creativity, but viability and common sense. Nobody will ever hesitate to kill Goodra with Dragon Claw, I assure you that they won't think twice. Your argument is invalid.
people are not realizing that a pokemon with 150 in one defense stat doesnt need 252 evs into that stat when your other def stat is only 70 regardless of situation i feel like that a waste of ev spread of course anyone can use whichever spread they like but putting them in a gargantuan stat like that is ridiculous when you can support Sp.atk,Atk,Def, Speed that lack in base points
Liarliarpantsonfire: I'm not sure why you think Gooey is so worthless. To be honest, that seems a little shortsighted on your part. From what I understand, you make the claim that once something that kills Goodra has its speed lowered, and the person using Goodra sends in a check to whatever killed Goodra, the opponent would switch out to their own check/counter, regardless of whether they lost speed. That part is technically true.
Although have you ever considered the other possibilities of Gooey? For example, having your speed lowered temporarily increases the number of checks a pokemon has. Something previously too slow to kill off a threat suddenly has a chance to take it out. This is especially helpful as a potential tool to use against physical sweeps, as something like, say Garchomp, is much easier to deal with when its good speed is no longer an issue. And Goodra only needs to be alive for something like that to work.
Not to mention, not every physical attack OHKOs Goodra. Say it comes in on a predictable weak or resisted physical attack? The pokemonn facing Goodra suddenly has a good chance of being outsped by it and possibly killed. It's for uses like that that I think Gooey is not a completely worthless ability as you say. And I think some people will hesitate to kill Goodra with Dragon Claw.
Although have you ever considered the other possibilities of Gooey? For example, having your speed lowered temporarily increases the number of checks a pokemon has. Something previously too slow to kill off a threat suddenly has a chance to take it out. This is especially helpful as a potential tool to use against physical sweeps, as something like, say Garchomp, is much easier to deal with when its good speed is no longer an issue. And Goodra only needs to be alive for something like that to work.
Not to mention, not every physical attack OHKOs Goodra. Say it comes in on a predictable weak or resisted physical attack? The pokemonn facing Goodra suddenly has a good chance of being outsped by it and possibly killed. It's for uses like that that I think Gooey is not a completely worthless ability as you say. And I think some people will hesitate to kill Goodra with Dragon Claw.
I believe that what he means is that, while gooey has some utility, the ability to switch with impunity into grass moves, especially status ones like spore/sleep powder and leech seed, is much more valuable. Also, the fact that gooey only activates upon contact moves (i.e. physical ones) is a huge letdown for Goodra, as it means that in order to make use of its hidden ability, it will have to take a hit on its weaker end of the defensive spectrum.
Sorry if I at all made it seem like gooey was Goodra's only good ability. I have run sap sipper sets (and even a hydration one, but that was a nightmare for me and the opponent) and loved what they can do, but they work even better because his other ability is gooey and people will treat you like you have gooey until they see sap sipper activate which could lead to Goodra getting a few turns it wouldn't have otherwise. Same will probably go for sap sipper, nobody will use a grass move until they know it's not running sap sipper, which will be useful as well.
So you're saying a dragonite that doesn't run dragon dance will be ok with -1 speed? A scarfed garchomp/salamence will give up their boost without a second thought? DD dragons won't want to give up their atk boosts, so they'll lumber on with less speed. Sure they can switch out, but having to switch out after killing goodra would drive me insane. There's a million ways Gooey can change the battle, and you're the only person who doesn't see its value. You're also the only one arguing which is better, as they are both valuable abilities that can be used in their own sets that together make goodra a viable OU choice. Your argument is invalid as a +1 0 EV Aquatail will deal MORE damage than a +0 252 SpA muddy water against any threat not physically defensive. There's also outrage, power whip, earthquake, Iron Tail, Rock Slide, and dragon tail, all viable moves when used right, so I don't see how its physical movepool mediocre, those are some decent moves with decent coverage and damage potential. I have no clue how not carrying a single one of them when you can boost your atk for free is common sense. Please just stop being so argumentative so we can move forward in the discussion. If you have something to say that isn't complete tauros shit, I'd love to hear it, but so far everything I've heard you say has been either only partly true, or not true at all
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This I don't get. Dead Goodra = profit? If you really claim that the ability to sacrifice a pokemon only to possibly force out your opponents pokemon is worth it, then I don't know what to say. For example, CB Talonflame can't OHKO Mega Kangaskhan, so it's going to die no matter what assuming both pokes are at full health. However, even though your Talonflame bites the dust you at least do a substantial amount of damage. Goodra only leaves the opponent with -1 speed after biting the dust in your scenarios. They can get a free kill on you and switch out afterwards unscathed.
False Sense: Like I said, your opponent can switch out to get rid of Gooey, essentially leaving you with no Goodra and your opponent losing temporary momentum. The outspeeding argument is negligible too, most Goodra don't invest whatsoever in speed and won't outspeed anything significant that it can threaten out after Gooey. Goodra also has to take a lot of damage just to activate Gooey.
Again, Sap Sipper is just way more beneficial, Gooey might have been usable on something else with higher base defense but Goodra has no use for it. Basically what Haunter said.
For the last time, its not that Gooey makes it easier to revenge kill the poke that KO'd goodra, its that with gooey, goodra lasts longer because nobody wants to kill goodra with a contact move unless they have to that makes gooey so valuable. Most people send in their Sylveon to take the special hits while attacking Goodra's high SpD or their gliscor to 2HKO before putting their dragon or lucario or azumarill or whatever physical attacker they're using through the ordeal of dealing with -1 spe. There's only 2 common moves that can be used to attack Goodra safely, Earthquake and stonemiss.
Also, you make it sound like switching out is easy, but set up physical sweepers can't afford to switch out, so they hate gooey; dragons wielding choice scarf often use outrage, so they'll be locked in and easy to take out; and even if they can just switch out, a free move on a switch in is easy to take advantage of. Look at an excerpt from one of my recent fights
Turn 1:
Dragonite uses Dragon Claw (100% damage)
Goodra faints
Dragonite's speed falls
I send out Zygarde
Turn 2:
Dragonite switches out
They send out Azumarill
Zygarde uses coil
Turn 3:
Zygarde uses coil
Azumarill uses play rough (17% damage)
Turn 4:
Zygarde uses earthquake (100% damage)
Azumarill faints
Zygarde regains 6.25% health from leftovers (90% total)
They send out Dragonite
Turn 5:
Dragonite uses dragon claw (30% damage)
Zygarde uses stone edge (70% damage)
Zygarde regains 6.25% health from leftovers (71% total)
Turn 6:
Zygarde uses extremespeed (30% damage)
Dragonite faints
Zygarde went on to KO 3 more pokes before being taken down.This is one example of DOZENS that my goodra/zygarde core owns, and whomever I was fighting must've been subscribing to your channel because they made the mistake of attacking directly. The effects of gooey are so annoying that there's no right way to go about attacking goodra, and it leads to the opponent making mistakes. If you don't see a single way to use it, then there's nothing left for us to say to each other
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First statement is obviously incorrect, not even gonna bother correcting. Gooey doesn't make you invincible mate.
Your example just showcases you letting your Goodra get OHKO'd, Dragonite escaping freely and your opponent happening to be extremely weak to Coil Zygarde (or he was just a bad player, can't really judge). I don't see at all how that makes Gooey viable, or superior to Sap Sipper for that matter.
Gooey doesn't make you invincible or to let Goodra get KO'd.
Gooey makes it so that anyone attempting to attack Goodra with a Contact Physical Move will be hesitant/wary to do so because of the -1 Speed Drop which few Pokemon genuinely welcome. Anything that somehow doesn't OHKO a Goodra may be subject to being slower than it which is possible behind Reflect/Wish situations.
If you KO a Goodra with a contact move, you're under at least a -1 Speed Drop meaning that what is in can possibly be outsped and possibly KO'd by something that normally wouldn't be able to or put a hamper to a sweeper that has a Speed boost and therefore forcing you to switch out your Pokemon.
EDIT: Correcting some grammar, etc
Gooey makes it so that anyone attempting to attack Goodra with a Contact Physical Move will be hesitant/wary to do so because of the -1 Speed Drop which few Pokemon genuinely welcome. Anything that somehow doesn't OHKO a Goodra may be subject to being slower than it which is possible behind Reflect/Wish situations.
If you KO a Goodra with a contact move, you're under at least a -1 Speed Drop meaning that what is in can possibly be outsped and possibly KO'd by something that normally wouldn't be able to or put a hamper to a sweeper that has a Speed boost and therefore forcing you to switch out your Pokemon.
EDIT: Correcting some grammar, etc
1. Besides non contact physical moves, your opponent can: do tiny damage with Special attacks or have its speed lowered. I NEVER said it made him invincible, just annoying to approach as there's no right answer.
2. I am not saying its superior to Sap Sipper, it is not. They are different abilities with different goals
3. I gave you an example of how matches go if you go by your mentality of dubbing gooey worthless and ignoring it. The opponent either could get 2HKO'd by Zygarde or switch. They chose to switch like you said they should and suffered the consequences. If Goodra hadn't had Gooey, Dragonite would've beaten me and I would've been down 6 to 4. Instead, I won with just 3 pokemon.
4. Why are you so dead set on disproving gooey? Gooey being popular only helps sap sipper sets as people will be less likely to attack their weak physical defense and more likely to use grass type moves letting you take advantage of Sap Sipper more often.
Goodra @ Leftovers
Ability: Gooey
EVs: 204 HP / 252 SpA / 52 Spe
Nature: Modest
Moveset:
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Thunderbolt
- Toxic
Goodra I find makes for a good offensive pivot. It has the power to leave a lasting presence, and enough bulk to stick around and can spread Toxic nicely seeing as the majority of Poison absorbers do not like a Draco Meteor / Fire Blast to their faces. To top it enough, it can invest a miniscule amount of EVs into Speed to outpace 0 Spe Rotom-W and smack it with Toxic before it runs away, or smash it with Draco. Fire Blast and Thunderbolt round out coverage nicely: Fire Blast demolishes Steels and LumHarvest Trevenant who would otherwise not mind Toxic, while Thunderbolt not only strikes the most popular Fairies (Togekiss and Azumarill) for major damage, but also handles Water-types such as Starmie and Gyarados which Goodra can wall.
Ability: Gooey
EVs: 204 HP / 252 SpA / 52 Spe
Nature: Modest
Moveset:
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Thunderbolt
- Toxic
Goodra I find makes for a good offensive pivot. It has the power to leave a lasting presence, and enough bulk to stick around and can spread Toxic nicely seeing as the majority of Poison absorbers do not like a Draco Meteor / Fire Blast to their faces. To top it enough, it can invest a miniscule amount of EVs into Speed to outpace 0 Spe Rotom-W and smack it with Toxic before it runs away, or smash it with Draco. Fire Blast and Thunderbolt round out coverage nicely: Fire Blast demolishes Steels and LumHarvest Trevenant who would otherwise not mind Toxic, while Thunderbolt not only strikes the most popular Fairies (Togekiss and Azumarill) for major damage, but also handles Water-types such as Starmie and Gyarados which Goodra can wall.
My personal set.
Physical Nightmare
Rocky Helmet/Leftovers
252 Def 196 HP 60 SpDef
Gooey
-Toxic
-Acid Armor
-Sludge Wave
-Dragon Pulse
Physical Nightmare
Rocky Helmet/Leftovers
252 Def 196 HP 60 SpDef
Gooey
-Toxic
-Acid Armor
-Sludge Wave
-Dragon Pulse
Steel types completely wall this set. Flamethrower should go over Sludge Wave.
It was a scarfachi and because I had max spD, not defense, an ice punch would have obliterated my soul
I believe the point Kairyu is arguing for is that Gooey allows Goodra certain utility that can turn bad situations into good ones.
In his example, assuming they both led with those respective pokemon, what is to be done? What pokemon actually wants to switch into Dragonite? Just about none.
And, if he actually wanted to preserve the Goodra, the opponent could have a read a switch and DDanced.
So basically, switching wasn't a good move. Without Gooey, the best he could hope for was a misread and a DDance, or hope Dragonite would be locked into Outrage.
However, with Gooey that crappy situation becomes less crappy.
In the aforementioned case of DD, dragonite would take a hit from Dragon pulse. Not great, but next turn Dragonite would attack and go down to normal speeds, AKA revenge killable speeds.
if Dragonite used outrage, it would immediately get Revenge Killed by, I dunno, Mamoswine, something normally slower.
However, since it used Dragon Claw, Kairyu had the chance to put in something that could set up and force Dragonite out, a bulky Zygarde which would be slower than an invested Dragonite.
so. Without gooey, Kairyu loses Goodra, gets set up on, or loses Goodra AND gets set up on.
With Gooey, Kairyu still loses Goodra, but gets a free turn or the potential for a revenge kill.
Essentially, Gooey allows you to sacrifice Goodra not in vain with a lack of better options.
Sap sipper, on the other hand, gives Goodra more utility to switch in and counter.
Sap sipper helps Goodra into the battle, Gooey helps leave the battle. Gooey is not worthless.
In his example, assuming they both led with those respective pokemon, what is to be done? What pokemon actually wants to switch into Dragonite? Just about none.
And, if he actually wanted to preserve the Goodra, the opponent could have a read a switch and DDanced.
So basically, switching wasn't a good move. Without Gooey, the best he could hope for was a misread and a DDance, or hope Dragonite would be locked into Outrage.
However, with Gooey that crappy situation becomes less crappy.
In the aforementioned case of DD, dragonite would take a hit from Dragon pulse. Not great, but next turn Dragonite would attack and go down to normal speeds, AKA revenge killable speeds.
if Dragonite used outrage, it would immediately get Revenge Killed by, I dunno, Mamoswine, something normally slower.
However, since it used Dragon Claw, Kairyu had the chance to put in something that could set up and force Dragonite out, a bulky Zygarde which would be slower than an invested Dragonite.
so. Without gooey, Kairyu loses Goodra, gets set up on, or loses Goodra AND gets set up on.
With Gooey, Kairyu still loses Goodra, but gets a free turn or the potential for a revenge kill.
Essentially, Gooey allows you to sacrifice Goodra not in vain with a lack of better options.
Sap sipper, on the other hand, gives Goodra more utility to switch in and counter.
Sap sipper helps Goodra into the battle, Gooey helps leave the battle. Gooey is not worthless.
You said that only EdgeQuake can be used to attack Goodra safely. Which is total nonsense but oh well. Specs Latios still OHKO's max HP Goodra you know. And I don't think CB Terrakion will be too worried about the speed drop, it annihilates your Goodra either way. There's tons of moves that take out Goodra safely. I mean, just because Heatran has a chance to run Flame Body doesn't mean that I'm going to think twice about smacking it with Close Combat with Lucario. Just like that the speed drop from Gooey is irrelevant the majority of the time. Especially against Goodra itself, as it rarely runs speed investment so it's not outspeeding anything even with Gooey.
I never said he should always switch out, just that he can if he wants. In fact considering that Dragonite still had Multiscale intact he should have stayed in as Zygarde tend to set up, so that was a misplay on his part. Goodra having Gooey didn't mean anything in that situation. Dragonite could have 2HKO'd you with Dragon Claw factoring in Weakness Policy, or DD, Dragon Claw and Extremespeed for the kill. Even if Dragonite should die, he took down your Goodra and wrecked your Zygarde. Still doesn't seem like a good trade off to me.
myw That's not what happened. He flatout OHKO'd the Goodra without taking damage on his Dragonite. If I didn't know any better I'd assume that the Dragonite already got a free DD in the turn before and his opponent willingly sacked his Goodra just so it could drop its speed. Or Goodra just got ohko'd in a 1 vs 1 without getting a hit on Dragonite. I still don't see how sacrificing a full health pokemon for a speed drop is a justifyable way of playing. I'd much rather take the immunity to Spore any other Grass move.
I don't like sacrificing pokemon either, but not a lot of things wall Dragonite. Something was probably going to die, one way or another.
And CB Terrakion actually does care about the speed drop, because once it's speed drops things much slower than it can come in to revenge kill. It's the difference between putting in a scarfer or something with choice band/specs or something. One gets switched out on, and requires a good read to do good damage- the other makes a serious dent on the switch with alleviated reading.
Which is the point. Gooey isn't something you WANT to work, but when you need it, it's there. Think of it like aftermath or something.
And CB Terrakion actually does care about the speed drop, because once it's speed drops things much slower than it can come in to revenge kill. It's the difference between putting in a scarfer or something with choice band/specs or something. One gets switched out on, and requires a good read to do good damage- the other makes a serious dent on the switch with alleviated reading.
Which is the point. Gooey isn't something you WANT to work, but when you need it, it's there. Think of it like aftermath or something.
For all yu Poke-math wizards out there, I have a numbers question. When running +252 Sp.Atk without a boosting Nature, are there any critical KO benchmarks that I would miss if I traded Sludge Wave for Sludge Bomb? It'd lose 5 BP from the change to Bomb, but gain an extra 20% chance to Poison compared to Wave, so I personally think it'd be a worthwhile switch, but I have no idea how to work the numbers magic for specific damage %s and KO tiers.
252 SpA Goodra Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 164-194 (43.96 - 52.01%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Goodra Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 156-184 (41.82 - 49.32%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Goodra Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sylveon: 140-166 (35.53 - 42.13%) -- 91.41% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Goodra Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sylveon: 146-174 (37.05 - 44.16%) -- 99.98% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Goodra Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 212-250 (52.47 - 61.88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Goodra Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 222-262 (54.95 - 64.85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Don't let the Togekiss calc fool you, they have Leftovers to inch themselves out of 2HKO range anyway. Sludge Bomb's chances of 2HKOing Kiss are actually better than Sludge Wave, since the 30% chance to do 6% (12% minus 6%) more damage can matter. Stick with Sludge Bomb, or better yet Thunderbolt to hit the more common Fairies in addition to Water-types / Flying-types; the Sylveon I listed is what I believe to be the more effective but not more common variant, so the Sylveons (and Florges) you'd encounter would likely pack much more Special Defense to tank Poison moves anyway, and best to leave them to teammates like Steel-types or Fire-types.
Meh. I can understand Flamethrower but it should not go in place of Sludge Wave. With the rising popularity of BellyJet Azumarill, I want to have a way to kill it. If anything, I would put it over Dragon Pulse.
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