Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]

[Dizney]

I don't really have an argument as I haven't been around long enough in the meta-game to decide on these things, however I will admit this thing is a compleeeete bitch.

Destiny bond on a ghost (I use Gengar normally) tends to work a small bit of the time :-) Switching it into a PuP if predicted right and then out-speeding is the way I tend to go. However, this doesn't really work if they go for the sucker punch, fail because of destiny bond and then switch out.

 

[Shroomisaur]

Is that wall of text a joke?

You said noone had a good argument without responding to mine, and then when I raise it you think I'm the snide one? There is no risk/reward? Do you know what these terms even mean?

Megakangaskhan has to predict correctly to get it's sweep going. You have options to prevent this. I've said this all before, I give up. My posts clearly state why i believe you have way more tools than people are treating it like.

I meant your "keep telling yourself that" among many other arrogant-sounding bits of your post sounded snide, not your argument itself.

But now I spend the time to respond to each of your points, and you simply say it's a "wall of text"? Obviously there's no point in talking to you, as suspected.

 

[Numera]

Is that wall of text a joke?

You said noone had a good argument without responding to mine, and then when I raise it you think I'm the snide one? MegaKang is so overcentralizing that the best pokemon against it are currently underused? There is no risk/reward? Do you know what these terms even mean?

Megakangaskhan has to predict correctly to get it's sweep going. You have options to prevent this. I've said this all before, I give up. My posts clearly state why i believe you have way more tools than people are treating it like.

I think this is the real Joke is here. I see..no risk in mega kang, and I think bulbasrooms/shroomasaur is correct indeed

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

He sure won't!

• +2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 501-591 (127.4 - 150.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And Fake Out is a terrible move on M-Kang that not many people are even bothering to run. Why waste your time on that, when you can two-shot Steel-types with a STAB Return? By the way, all of the mons you've listed die to +2 Return. (But Effect Spore? Static? Really? They don't even activate all the time..)

lol yeah didn't think it'd survive. Adamant Kanga loses to Jolly regular ol' Lucario and perhaps other base 90+s.

51% activation rate for a status related ability for just switching in is really good though. If one does not switch in on Fake Out, many of the pokemon I mentioned in my previous post will be able to survive the initial Power-Up Punches.

You also have an option to use a fairly quick mon to Hypnosis or something Mega Khan.

Also, Kangaskhan is a she, dunno why some people are calling her a he...

 

[DaiGuren]

I will say this again. MegaKhan, if not banned, will monopolize every mega spot on every team worth its salt, regardless if she's too-broken-for-OU or not. That alone is reason enough why she should be sent to Ubers.

 

[zachmac]

Megakangaskhan has to predict correctly to get it's sweep going.

Yeah, it has to predict correctly if you're running a sableye.

Usually, it can just force a swap out and Power Up Punch without any fear, doing damage to most potential swap ins, and the ones that can swap in usually won't be able to take it's +2 return, or in the case of a ghost, won't like Sucker Punch.

You have options to prevent this.

We have options to stop nasty plot Darkrai from setting up.

Does that mean they're abundant and all viable?

51% activation rate for a status related ability for just switching in is really good though. If one does not switch in on Fake Out, many of the pokemon I mentioned in my previous post will be able to survive the initial Power-Up Punches.

Bring this up again when people start running Zap Cannon and Dynamic Punch.

It's nice, but is no substitute for a real check or counter.

 

[MagicMissingno]

If I may, predicting with Kang is basically playing it safe. As long as you're not a complete baka you can dish out a shitload of damage to the opposing team before Kang goes down and then it's 4-5 healthy Pokemon against 3-6 Pokemon about to die.

 

[DaiGuren]

Is that wall of text a joke?

You said noone had a good argument without responding to mine, and then when I raise it you think I'm the snide one? MegaKang is so overcentralizing that the best pokemon against it are currently underused? It's so good that people aren't using the best pokes against it right? There is no risk/reward to using MegaKang? Do you know what these terms even mean?

Megakangaskhan has to predict correctly to get it's sweep going. You have options to prevent this. I've said this all before, I give up. My posts clearly state why i believe you have way more tools than people are treating it like.


And not that it matters but I don't run Cofagrigus or Sabeleye or any other silver bullet for Megakang. I just have a balanced team and MegaKang gives me no more trouble than the other top OU pokes. I handle it with prediction and have many teams 2k+. As i have said several times you beat MegaKang by outplaying it, not with counters.

Yo dude, you really need to stop playing the "outplaying" card. Every mon can be beaten if outplayed, doesn't make them mons less viable or not.

"Ohh Ho-oh has 4x weakness to SR! That thing can certainly be outplayed! To OU it is!"

 

[sidakarya]

51% activation rate for a status related ability for just switching in is really good though. If one does not switch in on Fake Out, many of the pokemon I mentioned in my previous post will be able to survive the initial Power-Up Punches.

They can't survive the subsequent +2 Returns though. They're also either slower than M-Khan, die to +2 Sucker Punch (an easy way to get past paralysis and Goodra's effect), or both.

The thing about status-related abilities, though, is that those abilities are bloody terrible were it not for M-Khan's ability. (and they're not very good even then) Rocky Helmet is already a limiting option that burdens your item slot for things like Ferrothorn (can't tank Rotom-W's as well without Leftovers) and Garchomp (suddenly vulnerable to everything with ice). Status abilities are like that, except worse. Using the sub-par Effect Spore on Breloom means no Technician or even Poison Heal, just for one example. Why do that when you can't even OHKO with CB Mach Punch, and you're too frail to take even something that M-Kang users don't even use, let alone return? And it doesn't activate all the time, as I said? Is it really come to a game of luck, when you're trying to beat this thing?

Sylveon's a he, by the way :^)

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I get the feeling some people in this thread are trolling... One has to predict things in any strategic game...

Anyways...

Does that mean they're abundant and all viable?Bring this up again when people start running Zap Cannon and Dynamic Punch.

When were Volcarona and Breloom not viable?

Zap Cannon and Dynamic Punch run the risk of doing nothing. Switching-in is something completely different.

Edit: I know we were talking about male Sylveon, but I've seen a number of people call Kangaskhan a "he" in this thread and around Smogon, which I apologize, makes me chuckle.

 

[MagicMissingno]

When were Volcarona and Breloom not viable?

He means the abilities, not the Pokemon.

 

[ankyfdarkness]

If I may, predicting with Kang is basically playing it safe. As long as you're not a complete baka you can dish out a shitload of damage to the opposing team before Kang goes down and then it's 4-5 healthy Pokemon against 3-6 Pokemon about to die.

Lol, QFT. There are very few Pokemon in OU that can punish wrong predictions as brutally as Megakahn does.

 

[Spiegelmann]

Going straight for the power-up Punch at best is a free +2 with some damage. If they switch into sableye (the worst case scenario) nothing happens and you can switch into a status absorber.

 

[Numera]

I get the feeling some people in this thread are trolling... One has to predict things in any strategic game...

Anyways...

When were Volcarona and Breloom not viable?

Zap Cannon and Dynamic Punch run the risk of doing nothing. Switching-in is something completely different.

Edit: I know we were talking about male Sylveon, but I've seen a number of people call Kangaskhan a "he" in this thread and around Smogon, which I apologize, makes me chuckle.

Effect spore breloom is NOT common or viable. It's kinda over centralizing if you ask me.
Bear in mind most things will die from return 1 so kang would have the same low chance as every one else

 

[sidakarya]

Going straight for the power-up Punch at best is a free +2 with some damage. If they switch into sableye (the worst case scenario) nothing happens and you can switch into a status absorber.

Or you can just use wait out the mega-evolution and tack off half of its health with Scrappy Return, then switch to Heatran. At best, you get a weakened Sableye, and at worst, nothing happens and you have a Sableye counter.

 

[zachmac]

When were Volcarona and Breloom not viable?

Breloom isn't viable without Poison Heal or Technician. So, uh, when you change it to effect spore...that's when it becomes unviable.

Volcarona is viable for reasons other then as a suicide semi-check.

Zap Cannon and Dynamic Punch run the risk of doing nothing. Switching-in is something completely different.

And if flame body doesn't activate, swapping in did you nothing to stop it, and now you have to face a +2 Kanga.

51% is good to have, but it's not reliable enough to defend your team from Kanga. This plan will backfire 49% of the time. Similarly, Zap Cannon and Dynamic Punch are amazing moves when they hit, but the 50% of the time they don't hit, you're just out of luck.

 

[Hahahaunter]

I get the feeling some people in this thread are trolling... One has to predict things in any strategic game...

Anyways...

When were Volcarona and Breloom not viable?

Zap Cannon and Dynamic Punch run the risk of doing nothing. Switching-in is something completely different.

Volcarona and Breloom are very viable. However, Volcarona's Flame Body only activates 30% of the time, you have to miss out on the boost from Swarm, and Volcarona does not want to be a wall/taking damage, it wants to be a Quiver Dancer and at most use its bulk for set-up. Flame Body is a bonus, not a way to stop every sweeper relying on physical contact (also, Earthquake is not a physical contact move). Breloom does not want to be switching in to much of anything that M-Kangaskahn dishes out, and even an already set-up Sub-Puncher set can lose the Focus Punch because the Substitute gets broken on the first hit.

 

[MagicMissingno]

51% is good to have, but it's not reliable enough to defend your team from Kanga. This plan will backfire 49% of the time.

And before Scald is brought up, Scald gets the burn when you deal damage to Kang while Flame Body gets the burn when Kang deals damage to you. And when Kang does damage, SHE DOES DAMAGE.

 

[LordRandomness]

What about Foul Play? I could see that turning Kangaskhan's +2 around into a solid KO or at least a lot of damage. Zoroark and Liepard both outspeed and resist Sucker Punch, Zoroark can also run Focus Blast while Liepard has access to various Prankster options (although I'll give you that Liepard isn't particularly good for OU...). Additionally, some other users of Foul Play such as Klefki and Mandibuzz are slower but can come in on PuP and use resistances or high defenses to get the attack off.

And as mentioned, effects like Flame Body, Effect Spore, or Static should not be used on their own. No-one's suggesting you chuck Pachirisu in there to try and stop it. You switch Effect Spore Breloom or Volcarona or whatever in because it also happens to have nice tools for dealing with Kangaskhan, and additionally you can swap out to something else immediately anyway. It provides an opportunity to score a status effect while also achieving something else and definitely counts as a plus to switching that specific pokemon in.

EDIT: The main point of Flame Body is to bring Volcarona in on Power-up Punch, which will not do large amounts of damage to it. I agree trying to tank Returns for it is a bad idea.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I'm listing options and I'm trying to get people to think outside the box to develop newer and better strategies. The XY metagame is still quite young, so keep an open mind. I could argue and say doing the same thing over and over with no consideration to other options is overcentralizing, which is a lot of players do. But... The better players consider their creative options and do something that may seem silly, but it may make a big impact in the metagame in the future...

I didn't say they were all a gift from Arceus.

Trust me, keep an open mind, I've been here since Gen 3 and I've seen a lot...

On another note... When Pokebank opens I am so importing my Flame Orb Cressy to switch in on Mega Kanga. I've switched her in on Ttar CB Crunches and still do alright. lol

 

[MagicMissingno]

What about Foul Play? I could see that turning Kangaskhan's +2 around into a solid KO or at least a lot of damage. Zoroark and Liepard both outspeed and resist Sucker Punch, Zoroark can also run Focus Blast while Liepard has access to various Prankster options (although I'll give you that Liepard isn't particularly good for OU...). Additionally, some other users of Foul Play such as Klefki and Mandibuzz are slower but can come in on PuP and use resistances or high defenses to get the attack off.

+2 0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 331-391 (94.3 - 111.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO (surefire with rocks)

 

[Spiegelmann]

Or you can just use wait out the mega-evolution and tack off half of its health with Scrappy Return, then switch to Heatran. At best, you get a weakened Sableye, and at worst, nothing happens and you have a Sableye counter.

Yeah I didn't mention this because it is slightly risky whereas m-evo power-up punch is pretty much 100% safe. The odds are just so in favor of M-Kang it's ludicrous.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

It absolutely disgusts me how many people think Kangaskhanite should be banned for the wrong reasons. Not having counters/having counters has got nothing to do with warranting a ban. Demolishing walls after you let it set up does not warrant a ban. Incentivising you to run something you didn't used to run (Rocky Helmet instead of Leftovers) does not warrant a ban.

You do "need" Rocky Helmet to beat it since its 105/100/100 bulk makes it resistant to OHKOs at full health except for a STAB Close Combat/Superpower or LO Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch. An Iron Fist LO Mach Punch from Conkeldurr does 60-70% on it, so it needs to be softened for a KO with a super-effective priority attack. Even weaker priority moves that are not boosted would need a larger depletion of HP.

 

[Numera]

I'm listing options and I'm trying to get people to think outside the box to develop newer and better strategies. The XY metagame is still quite young, so keep an open mind. I could argue and say doing the same thing over and over with no consideration to other options is overcentralizing, which is a lot of players do. But... The better players consider their creative options and do something that may seem silly, but it may make a big impact in the metagame in the future...

I didn't say they were all a gift from Arceus.

Trust me, keep an open mind, I've been here since Gen 3 and I've seen a lot...

On another note... When Pokebank opens I am so importing my Flame Orb Cressy to switch in on Mega Kanga. I've switched her in on Ttar CB Crunches and still do alright. lol

Whether or not it's "Thinking outside the box" if it's bearly ever used and has to be used now due to a new pokemon, it's over centralizing and therefore banworthy

 

[MagicMissingno]

I'm listing options and I'm trying to get people to think outside the box to develop newer and better strategies. The XY metagame is still quite young, so keep an open mind. I could argue and say doing the same thing over and over with no consideration to other options is overcentralizing, which is a lot of players do. But... The better players consider their creative options and do something that may seem silly, but it may make a big impact in the metagame in the future...

When dealing with something as powerful as Kang a strategy the relies on luck is not a good idea. Besides you get a better burn chance from Sableye.