Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]

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Kanga learns Fire Punch for Scizor / Ferrothorn / Skarmory / Lucario / M-Mawile. Much of those also don't like Earthquake, which is also the optimal attack vs Aegislash.

Its taken 26 pages for people to start realizing that M-Kanga's best set can be revenge killed if you sac a mon and bring in a 100% healthy super-defensive pokemon packing a super-effective attack vs Khan. Those are NOT counters, but shaky revenge killers at best.

Why "shaky revenge killer"?? Because if they were a problem for Khan, the last few that have been talked about are all dealt with Fire Punch / Fire Blast... especially because Khan is faster than all of them.
 
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SNaG21 said:
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 127-151 (45.1 - 53.7%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO

Scizor is very unlikely to go 0/0, so with a classic Gen V spread...

+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 255-300 (74.3 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Admittedly, getting off of a boost would be rough in this situation. However, Choice Band Scizor (settling for Brick Break due to lack of Superpower right now)...

252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 270-318 (76.9 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And with Superpower...

252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 430-508 (122.5 - 144.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Also, Scarf Lucario isn't great, but it still has uses, and it certainly isn't garbage against Mega Kangaskhan.

+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 169-201 (60.1 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Plus, if Lucario eats a Sucker Punch, Justified activates, giving it a power boost that can wreck plenty of other Pokémon.
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What I was trying too say with Scarf Lucario is, what is the point? You might as well use the mega, since that can actually do something outside of weak CC's. And Kanga could just go for a +2 Earthquake, and Choice band Scizor without Superpower can't beat it, since you get killed by Sucker punch on the next turn. Scizor is a shaky check too Kanga, if you predict right or it's weakened, it probably worked out, but it has literally killed two of your pokes already, what's there too stop his next sweeper?
 
Eeyore said:
I agree with you. Ferrothorn is a staple on all of my teams, and it wrecks Mega-Khan for the most point. Gliscor checks it really well (resisting all moves but Sucker Punch, and having the capability to either Toxic or Swords Dance in those turns, depending on the set) as do most ghost types, Sub-Disable Gengar in particular. Especially if it's running a swords dance set.

As a counter-argument, it has bulk, and the ability to hit twice is almost better than a huge-power or pure-power boost, simply because it can break subs/Sash and hit again. With moves like PUP and Earthquake, this is incredibly disabling, not to mention Sucker Punch,

Whether it gets banned or not doesn't much matter. It has common checks, and what I think needs to be banned is the combination of a certain move with Kangaskhanite, such as either SuckerPunch/Kkite or PUP/Kkite, or something like that, rather than banning the entire item.

This allows for more versatile and unpredictable sets other than the main 2 that get used (Fake Out, PuP/Swords Dance, Sucker Punch, Return/Earthquake) and allows us to keep the item, which is a wonderful change of pace, and is fun to battle against, if you have at least one counter.
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Smgon does not do complex bans like that, and it's stupid anyway, because then we could begin to advocate banning tons of move combinations if something else ends up being broken too.
 
Eeyore said:
I agree with you. Ferrothorn is a staple on all of my teams, and it wrecks Mega-Khan for the most point. Gliscor checks it really well (resisting all moves but Sucker Punch, and having the capability to either Toxic or Swords Dance in those turns, depending on the set) as do most ghost types, Sub-Disable Gengar in particular. Especially if it's running a swords dance set.

As a counter-argument, it has bulk, and the ability to hit twice is almost better than a huge-power or pure-power boost, simply because it can break subs/Sash and hit again. With moves like PUP and Earthquake, this is incredibly disabling, not to mention Sucker Punch,

Whether it gets banned or not doesn't much matter. It has common checks, and what I think needs to be banned is the combination of a certain move with Kangaskhanite, such as either SuckerPunch/Kkite or PUP/Kkite, or something like that, rather than banning the entire item.

This allows for more versatile and unpredictable sets other than the main 2 that get used (Fake Out, PuP/Swords Dance, Sucker Punch, Return/Earthquake) and allows us to keep the item, which is a wonderful change of pace, and is fun to battle against, if you have at least one counter.
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+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 301-355 (85 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO. Gliscor checks it my ass. Ferro without Rocky Helmet isn't that great vs it either

STOP MENTIONING FAKE OUT! unless your low on the ladder, Crunch is Standard.

also No Complex bans. this has been touched on, we could let Ho-Oh in Nu if it could only use Ember. so stop suggesting it.
 
The banning of Khangaskhanite is senseless because the pokemon is not "Broken" as yet but just a bit over powered. I'm gonna talk about the pros and cons of it.
Pros:
1- Its an extremely good Physical sweeper
2- The ability to hit twice makes sturdy and substitutes
3- after +4 on an average day it plows through pokemon like hot knife throu butter
4- It can take care of its young

Cons:
1- It needs set up in order for it to sweep (wheather it be hazards, baton pass or weakening its counters to where it can handle the rest of a team)
2- Physical defensive walls counters it to a high degree
3- Its holding item is the megastone so there is no form of recovery so it can easily be stalled out
4- faster ghost types eat it up for breakfast because their only coverage move to hit them will be earthquake/fire punch and 90% of ghost types learn willow-wisp
5- all statuses is a huge problem to it
6- it needs prediction to sweep if opponent has ghost types on team

it has SEVERAL HARD COUNTERS which walls it completely:
Aegislash
Spiritomb
Coufagrigus
Mismagius
MegaBanette
Dusclopse(eviolite)
Gengar with substitute (cannot even touch gengar at all being immune to fighting, normal and ground and sucker punch can't hit you if you don't attack)
Ferrothorn + rocky helmet (takes off 57% just by taking 1 hit)
Hippowdon + rocky helmet
Skarmory (the best physical wall in the game)
Gourgeist- super (the best counter to megaKhangaskhan so far being able to willow-wisp and leech seed)
Trevnant
Sableye (priority willow+ recover)
Drifblimp (majority of moves can't even touch it)

Conclusion:
It can stay and if you don't want to use any one of its HARD COUNTERS ITS REALLY UP TO YOU AND SHOULD NOT COMPLAIN IF YOU GET SWEPT. I PERSONALLY HAVE FACED IT OVER 20 TIMES AND NEVER BEEN SWEPT BY MEGAKHANGASKHAN BECAUSE I ALWAYS HAVE A GOURGEIST ON MY TEAM. I ALWAYS END UP WINNING THE ONE ON ONE BEHIND A SUB!
the banning of its megastone is senseless because we have enough hard counters to stop it from sweeping
 
Theres no argument to justify this pokemon. It should be banned. Most of the arguments here for it to stay are based on simply outplaying your opponent. Any pokemon can be beat if you outplay the person using it. The fact of the matter is that every ghost check barring Cofagrigus dies to this thing when played correctly. Sableye Included. And even the most prominent defensive pokemon in the game have a hard time dealing with it. Worried about steel types like Skarmory and Ferrothorn? throw a Magnezone on your team and bait them nearly 100% of the time.
 
SNaG21 said:
+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 169-201 (60.1 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Plus, if Lucario eats a Sucker Punch, Justified activates, giving it a power boost that can wreck plenty of other Pokémon.
Click to expand...

Pretty much anything with justified can take a sucker punch and OHKO back. But good players should never be using sucker punch on justified users anyway, especially since it's not an attack you can switch into

What about cobalion switching into a crunch? He's got 129 def and 108 speed
 
Uvood said:
What I was trying too say with Scarf Lucario is, what is the point? You might as well use the mega, since that can actually do something outside of weak CC's. And Kanga could just go for a +2 Earthquake, and Choice band Scizor without Superpower can't beat it, since you get killed by Sucker punch on the next turn. Scizor is a shaky check too Kanga, if you predict right or it's weakened, it probably worked out, but it has literally killed two of your pokes already, what's there too stop his next sweeper?
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Shaky checks but still potential checks. I'm not really an advocate of Mega-Kangaskhan, but I just wanted to highlight all the options. Thank you for highlighting the flaws with my logic.

ChampionRico said:
The banning of Khangaskhanite is senseless because the pokemon is not "Broken" as yet but just a bit over powered. I'm gonna talk about the pros and cons of it.
Pros:
1- Its an extremely good Physical sweeper
2- The ability to hit twice makes sturdy and substitutes
3- after +4 on an average day it plows through pokemon like hot knife throu butter
4- It can take care of its young

Cons:
1- It needs set up in order for it to sweep (wheather it be hazards, baton pass or weakening its counters to where it can handle the rest of a team)
2- Physical defensive walls counters it to a high degree
3- Its holding item is the megastone so there is no form of recovery so it can easily be stalled out
4- faster ghost types eat it up for breakfast because their only coverage move to hit them will be earthquake/fire punch and 90% of ghost types learn willow-wisp
5- all statuses is a huge problem to it
6- it needs prediction to sweep if opponent has ghost types on team

it has SEVERAL HARD COUNTERS which walls it completely:
Aegislash
Spiritomb
Coufagrigus
Mismagius
MegaBanette
Dusclopse(eviolite)
Gengar with substitute (cannot even touch gengar at all being immune to fighting, normal and ground and sucker punch can't hit you if you don't attack)
Ferrothorn + rocky helmet (takes off 57% just by taking 1 hit)
Hippowdon + rocky helmet
Skarmory (the best physical wall in the game)
Gourgeist- super (the best counter to megaKhangaskhan so far being able to willow-wisp and leech seed)
Trevnant
Sableye (priority willow+ recover)
Drifblimp (majority of moves can't even touch it)

Conclusion:
It can stay and if you don't want to use any one of its HARD COUNTERS ITS REALLY UP TO YOU AND SHOULD NOT COMPLAIN IF YOU GET SWEPT. I PERSONALLY HAVE FACED IT OVER 20 TIMES AND NEVER BEEN SWEPT BY MEGAKHANGASKHAN BECAUSE I ALWAYS HAVE A GOURGEIST ON MY TEAM. I ALWAYS END UP WINNING THE ONE ON ONE BEHIND A SUB!
the banning of its megastone is senseless because we have enough hard counters to stop it from sweeping
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Sucker Punch is my answer to many of those Hard Counters. EQ or Sucker Punch decimates Aegislash. Sure, Gengar with Substitute and Disable, a popular set, has the potential to be a counter, but Gourgeist and, to a lesser extent, Trevenant, are more niche. Kangaskhan's hard counters often require people to shift their entire team for the sake of just one potential threat, which isn't usually a good sign. And hey, if you have a good teammate or two, Kangaskhan can sweep unchecked. It's easier to make a situation for a Mega-Kangaskhan sweep.
 
ChampionRico said:
1- It needs set up in order for it to sweep (wheather it be hazards, baton pass or weakening its counters to where it can handle the rest of a team)
2- Physical defensive walls counters it to a high degree
3- Its holding item is the megastone so there is no form of recovery so it can easily be stalled out
4- faster ghost types eat it up for breakfast because their only coverage move to hit them will be earthquake/fire punch and 90% of ghost types learn willow-wisp
5- all statuses is a huge problem to it
6- it needs prediction to sweep if opponent has ghost types on team
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1) No it doesn't
2) fucking LUGIA, the best wall in ubers, has a difficult time surviving
3) Who's going to stall it? It 2HKO's pretty much everything, even stuff like mega aggron
4) Crunch
5) Status is a huge problem to everyone
6) Everything needs prediction
 
ChampionRico said:
The banning of Khangaskhanite is senseless because the pokemon is not "Broken" as yet but just a bit over powered. I'm gonna talk about the pros and cons of it.
Pros:
1- Its an extremely good Physical sweeper
2- The ability to hit twice makes sturdy and substitutes
3- after +4 on an average day it plows through pokemon like hot knife throu butter
4- It can take care of its young

Cons:
1- It needs set up in order for it to sweep (wheather it be hazards, baton pass or weakening its counters to where it can handle the rest of a team)
2- Physical defensive walls counters it to a high degree
3- Its holding item is the megastone so there is no form of recovery so it can easily be stalled out
4- faster ghost types eat it up for breakfast because their only coverage move to hit them will be earthquake/fire punch and 90% of ghost types learn willow-wisp
5- all statuses is a huge problem to it
6- it needs prediction to sweep if opponent has ghost types on team

it has SEVERAL HARD COUNTERS which walls it completely:
Aegislash
Spiritomb
Coufagrigus
Mismagius
MegaBanette
Dusclopse(eviolite)
Gengar with substitute (cannot even touch gengar at all being immune to fighting, normal and ground and sucker punch can't hit you if you don't attack)
Ferrothorn + rocky helmet (takes off 57% just by taking 1 hit)
Hippowdon + rocky helmet
Skarmory (the best physical wall in the game)
Gourgeist- super (the best counter to megaKhangaskhan so far being able to willow-wisp and leech seed)
Trevnant
Sableye (priority willow+ recover)
Drifblimp (majority of moves can't even touch it)

Conclusion:
It can stay and if you don't want to use any one of its HARD COUNTERS ITS REALLY UP TO YOU AND SHOULD NOT COMPLAIN IF YOU GET SWEPT. I PERSONALLY HAVE FACED IT OVER 20 TIMES AND NEVER BEEN SWEPT BY MEGAKHANGASKHAN BECAUSE I ALWAYS HAVE A GOURGEIST ON MY TEAM. I ALWAYS END UP WINNING THE ONE ON ONE BEHIND A SUB!
the banning of its megastone is senseless because we have enough hard counters to stop it from sweeping
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lol so much lol even I had a better first post than this. None of what you claim to be 'hard counters' hasn't already been fully discussed and soundly defeated... not to mention you're thinking of something like Fake Out/PuP/SP/EQ and then ignoring things like scrappy Khan, or the fact that a counter has to be able to SWITCH INTO AN ATTACK and then threaten to KO.
 
ChampionRico said:
The banning of Khangaskhanite is senseless because the pokemon is not "Broken" as yet but just a bit

it has SEVERAL HARD COUNTERS which walls it completely:
Aegislash
Spiritomb
Coufagrigus
Mismagius
MegaBanette
Dusclopse(eviolite)
Gengar with substitute (cannot even touch gengar at all being immune to fighting, normal and ground and sucker punch can't hit you if you don't attack)
Ferrothorn + rocky helmet (takes off 57% just by taking 1 hit)
Hippowdon + rocky helmet
Skarmory (the best physical wall in the game)
Gourgeist- super (the best counter to megaKhangaskhan so far being able to willow-wisp and leech seed)
Trevnant
Sableye (priority willow+ recover)
Drifblimp (majority of moves can't even touch it)

Conclusion:
It can stay and if you don't want to use any one of its HARD COUNTERS ITS REALLY UP TO YOU AND SHOULD NOT COMPLAIN IF YOU GET SWEPT. I PERSONALLY HAVE FACED IT OVER 20 TIMES AND NEVER BEEN SWEPT BY MEGAKHANGASKHAN BECAUSE I ALWAYS HAVE A GOURGEIST ON MY TEAM. I ALWAYS END UP WINNING THE ONE ON ONE BEHIND A SUB!
the banning of its megastone is senseless because we have enough hard counters to stop it from sweeping
Click to expand...

Half of those aren't even considered counters/hard counters. If it can't switch in on it safely (barely anything can because of coverage moves like Earthquake and the lesser seen Crunch), live a hit and KO it back you can't consider it a counter. You can do that with most of the pokemon you listed. It is true that many substitute ghosts will handle the SuckerPunch variants of Megakang though. Also most of the defensive mons can only considered a check, because trust me, unless you have Rocky Helmet on Skarmory it won't be doing much back to Kangaskhan, other than taking damage and phazing it out.
 
ChampionRico said:
The banning of Khangaskhanite is senseless because the pokemon is not "Broken" as yet but just a bit over powered. I'm gonna talk about the pros and cons of it.
Pros:
1- Its an extremely good Physical sweeper and breezes through walls
2- The ability to hit twice makes sturdy and substitutes
3- after +2 on an average day it plows through pokemon like hot knife throu butter
4- It can take care of its young

Cons:
1- It needs set up in order for it to sweep (wheather it be hazards, baton pass or weakening its counters to where it can handle the rest of a team) unless its running SToss
2- Physical defensive walls counters it to a high degree Except they are 2HKOed
3- Its holding item is the megastone so there is no form of recovery so it can easily be stalled out By Sabeleye and Sableye alone
4- faster i.e. Gengar and Sableye, Gengar can't switch in ghost types eat it up for breakfast because their only coverage move to hit them will be earthquake/fire punch and the SE Crucnh and 90% of ghost types learn willow-wisp
5- all statuses is a huge problem to it but it can switch. Rotom Heat loves this guy
6- it needs the easiest form of prediction possible prediction to sweep if opponent has ghost types on team

it has SEVERAL HARD COUNTERS which walls it completely:
Aegislash 2HKoed by Crunch
Spiritomb 3HKoed by Crunch
Coufagrigus 3HKoed by Crunch, But does force a switch
Mismagius OHKoed by Crunch
MegaBanette OHKoed by Crunch, Needs to mega evolve to abuse prankster
Dusclopse(eviolite) 3HKoed by Crunch
Gengar with substitute (cannot even touch gengar at all being immune to fighting, normal and ground and sucker punch can't hit you if you don't attack) OHKoed by Crunch
Ferrothorn + rocky helmet (takes off 57% just by taking 1 hit) Vaporised By Return, Fire Punch and Crunch
Hippowdon + rocky helmet Vapourised with Return
Skarmory (the best physical wall in the game) Disintegrated by Return (2HKOed)
Gourgeist- super (the best counter to megaKhangaskhan so far being able to willow-wisp and leech seed) 3HKoed by Crunch
Trevnant 2HKoed by Crunch
Sableye (priority willow+ recover)
Drifblimp (majority of moves can't even touch it) 2HKoed by Crunch

Conclusion:
It can stay and if you don't want to use any one of Sableye ITS REALLY UP TO YOU AND SHOULD NOT COMPLAIN IF YOU GET SWEPT. I PERSONALLY HAVE FACED IT OVER 20 TIMES AND NEVER BEEN SWEPT BY MEGAKHANGASKHAN BECAUSE I ALWAYS HAVE A GOURGEIST ON MY TEAM. I ALWAYS END UP WINNING THE ONE ON ONE BEHIND A SUB! I AM ALSO FLUENT IN BULLSHIT AND KNOW WHERE THE CAPS LOCK IS!
the banning of its megastone is senseless because we have enough hard counters to stop it from sweeping In my own little fantasy world
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Can we please, PLEASE stop mentioning Fake Out.

Sorry if i sound cruel but this is nuts.

i did out proper pros/ cons a while ago. here

Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion
 
ChampionRico said:
it has SEVERAL HARD COUNTERS which walls it completely:
Aegislash
Spiritomb
Coufagrigus
Mismagius
MegaBanette
Dusclopse(eviolite)
Gengar with substitute (cannot even touch gengar at all being immune to fighting, normal and ground and sucker punch can't hit you if you don't attack)
Click to expand...
None of which can switch in on Crunch. Several of these pokemon aren't even actual counters; the likes of Aegislash and Mismagius can do practically nothing to Kanga, as the former is much slower and dies to EQ or Crunch and can't hit with Shadow Sneak, while the latter may burn but still dies to Knock Off thanks to its low defense.

(edit: no Knock Out, sad)
Ferrothorn + rocky helmet (takes off 57% just by taking 1 hit)
Hippowdon + rocky helmet
Skarmory (the best physical wall in the game)
Gourgeist- super (the best counter to megaKhangaskhan so far being able to willow-wisp and leech seed)
Trevnant
Sableye (priority willow+ recover)
Drifblimp (majority of moves can't even touch it)
Click to expand...
Read. The. Damned. Thread. These are clearly addressed.

I know you're brand new, but that doesn't excuse not following basic rules. If you're not going to show people the respect of reading what they write (or, to a lesser extent, bothering with your spelling) then nobody's going to respect your opinion.

What you've said is literally worthless here and is like a drop of water hitting a lake. It ripples for a second and then nobody will even know it happened. Shape up, champ in the making.
 
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Kangaskhan w/ Kangaskhanite Deserves to be Ubers. The huge movepool Kangaskhan has access to as well as the parental bond double hit makes it so that even supposed "counters" don't last long at all. Jolly Kangaskhan(s) are very difficult to out-speed, and as a result, counter-playing Mega Kanga is a massive challenge, and seems to result in being a lost cause more often than not. This Item is more trouble than it's worth, and should be banned IMO.
 
ChampionRico said:
The banning of Khangaskhanite is senseless because the pokemon is not "Broken" as yet but just a bit over powered. I'm gonna talk about the pros and cons of it.
Pros:
1- Its an extremely good Physical sweeper
2- The ability to hit twice makes sturdy and substitutes
3- after +4 on an average day it plows through pokemon like hot knife throu butter
4- It can take care of its young

Cons:
1- It needs set up in order for it to sweep (wheather it be hazards, baton pass or weakening its counters to where it can handle the rest of a team)
2- Physical defensive walls counters it to a high degree
3- Its holding item is the megastone so there is no form of recovery so it can easily be stalled out
4- faster ghost types eat it up for breakfast because their only coverage move to hit them will be earthquake/fire punch and 90% of ghost types learn willow-wisp
5- all statuses is a huge problem to it
6- it needs prediction to sweep if opponent has ghost types on team

it has SEVERAL HARD COUNTERS which walls it completely:
Aegislash
Spiritomb
Coufagrigus
Mismagius
MegaBanette
Dusclopse(eviolite)
Gengar with substitute (cannot even touch gengar at all being immune to fighting, normal and ground and sucker punch can't hit you if you don't attack)
Ferrothorn + rocky helmet (takes off 57% just by taking 1 hit)
Hippowdon + rocky helmet
Skarmory (the best physical wall in the game)
Gourgeist- super (the best counter to megaKhangaskhan so far being able to willow-wisp and leech seed)
Trevnant
Sableye (priority willow+ recover)
Drifblimp (majority of moves can't even touch it)

Conclusion:
It can stay and if you don't want to use any one of its HARD COUNTERS ITS REALLY UP TO YOU AND SHOULD NOT COMPLAIN IF YOU GET SWEPT. I PERSONALLY HAVE FACED IT OVER 20 TIMES AND NEVER BEEN SWEPT BY MEGAKHANGASKHAN BECAUSE I ALWAYS HAVE A GOURGEIST ON MY TEAM. I ALWAYS END UP WINNING THE ONE ON ONE BEHIND A SUB!
the banning of its megastone is senseless because we have enough hard counters to stop it from sweeping
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Mismagius...

Drifblim...

Mother****ing Drifblim...

And people mentioning Dusclops again...

Please, anti-ban, stop mentioning bad Pokemon that you wouldn't use not even in your joke Wifi team. At least mention something with an use like Mega Aggron,(which for some reason no anti-ban mentioned...), which a Max HP/Def survive anything Megaskhan has and KOes back with Metal Burst or can Thunder Wave (but why waste your Mega Slot with something that isn't Mega Kangaskhan?) but for the love of whichever divinity you praise, stick with useful pokemon.
 
JayHankEdLyon said:
None of which can switch in on Knock Off. Several of these pokemon aren't even actual counters; the likes of Aegislash and Mismagius can do practically nothing to Kanga, as the former is much slower and dies to EQ or Knock Off and can't hit with Shadow Sneak, while the latter may burn but still dies to Knock Off thanks to its low defense.

And yes, I say Knock Off instead of Crunch. They're both terrifying, but Knock Off's extra effect is devastating.

Read. The. Damned. Thread. These are clearly addressed.

I know you're brand new, but that doesn't excuse not following basic rules. If you're not going to show people the respect of reading what they write (or, to a lesser extent, bothering with your spelling) then nobody's going to respect your opinion.

What you've said is literally worthless here and is like a drop of water hitting a lake. It ripples for a second and then nobody will even know it happened. Shape up, champ in the making.
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Knock Off was determined to be illegal on Khan btw. Serebii's database and the simulator are wrong.

But the point remains: None of those ghost counters can stay in on a Scrappy PuP + Mega Crunch.
 
1)Sabayle is NOT a counter as it will lose most of his life to deal with MK.
2)Why should I keep my MK against your Sabayle?
3) I'm not forced to use power up punch and grant you a free switch if I see you've Sabayle in your team.If I predict the switch and I use crunch you're dead.
4)Even if you manage to burn me your Sabayle will be,at best,on the verge of death I'll heal my MK and start over.
5)MOST IMPORTANTLY If a pokémon has a counter that doesn't make it OU.(come on let's make Zekrom OU because Shedinja counters him).
 
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Farpafraf said:
1)Sabayle is NOT a counter as it will lose most of his life to deal with MK.
2)Why should I keep my MK against your Sabayle?
3) I'm not forced to use power up punch and grant you a free switch if I see you've Sabayle in your team.If I predict the switch and I use crunch you're dead.
4)Even if you manage to burn me your Sabayle will be,at best,on the verge of death I'll heal my MK and start over.
5)MOST IMPORTANTLY If a pokémon has a counter doesn't make it OU.(come on let's make Zekrom OU because Shedinja counters him).
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Shedinja does not counter Zekrom, terravolt goes through wonder guard, so shedinja just dies.
 
Farpafraf said:
1)Sabayle is NOT a counter as it will lose most of his life to deal with MK.
2)Why should I keep my MK against your Sabayle?
3) I'm not forced to use power up punch and grant you a free switch if I see you've Sabayle in your team.If I predict the switch and I use crunch you're dead.
4)Even if you manage to burn me your Sabayle will be,at best,on the verge of death I'll heal my MK and start over.
5)MOST IMPORTANTLY If a pokémon has a counter doesn't make it OU.(come on let's make Zekrom OU because Shedinja counters him).
Click to expand...
Sableye is actually a counter or did your forget Priority Recover and Burn Stall? it can switch in, Tank a hit, Burn, Recover then Stall Khan out. of course any decent Khan will switch but that doesn't mean Sableye isn't a counter and he is OU Viable ATM, (In the post ban enviroment he will be handy for MegaLuke.) I agree with the last point wholeheartedly though.
 
TheMohZone said:
+1 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 130-154 (42.7 - 50.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 50-60 (16.4 - 19.7%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

Spiritomb is a bit better. It may get the burn but its useless thereafter.
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Useless afterwards?

Even after taking 60-70% from M-Khan (At +1, which assumes the "correct" prediction of not mega evolving and using a Scrappy PUP), it will still TANK THE SECOND CRUNCH after burn, and be able to get off a Pain Split from 10-15% health. Not useless at all. It's a solid check - Able to take a hit, cripple, and recover to a decent health, and it's a straight up counter if they don't play perfectly.
 
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