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The Double Battle metagame; does it require skill?

StarmanXL

StarmanXL

Okay, I'm a fan of double battle metagame, but it seems that everything is geared towards singles; in fact, I don't think this site even has a double battle standards. Sets need to be changed, certain pokemon become more useful, others not so much so, some common things such as Baton Passing become riskier, and moves that last for a set duration, such as Sunny Day and Trick Room, can be better exploited because the battles move faster and two pokemon on your team can benefit from it at the same time.

The doubles metagame is different, but no one ever seems to play it or make any serious effort to establish a real metagame for it. Some even say it requires less skill. Why is this? It seems to require more or different skill from single metagame.

Of course, there's the whole "Explosion + Protect" thing, which seems to be the primary reason people say doubles suck, but if it's really that gamebreaking, couldn't a clause just be instituted to prevent it? Besides, it can be countered by such things as Ghost types, Damp, Protect/Detect, Steel types, status ailments, and others. Besides, I believe that if more people played doubles, effective counters could spring up, making the strategy less effect and therefore less used.

So basically, what I'm trying to say is, why is double metagame so ignored? It has a lot of potential, and requires some different thinking and team building than singles.
 
The Double Battle metagame does indeed require skill and can be just as fun as singles, but it's just not going to catch on. Everything is different, and becoming good would require an entire different kind of strategy. It is possible, but for most people it's just too much work to start a metagame all by themselves. In the end, it's impractical to really get involved because no one plays, and no one plays it in the first place for that exact same reason.
 
I believe that Doubles is ignored, just because it's so easy to set up. As you said yourself, moves like Sunny Day and Rain Dance have much more potential, but it doesn't stop there. Trick Room, Light Screen and Barrier, basically any duration move can be put to excellent use. Now, this is a problem in Singles, but if one is trying to set up a Light Screen for their physical sweeper, they're going to switch.

For example, my Bronzong uses Light Screen. The only attack move I know is Gyro Ball, so logically I'm going to switch. I want to switch to Garchomp, so I can set up and sweep. However, my opponent predicts I am going to switch to such a pokemon, and switches to a physical sweeper/uses a stat-up move. Either way, they have most likely effectively countered my Garchomp before it could even come in.

However, in Doubles this changes. For example, lets say my two leads are Bronzong and Garchomp. My opponent can't counter either one with anything he has out currently, so he plans a switch. at the same time, my Bronzong sets up Light Screen and Garchomp Swords Dances. Whatever my opponent brings in to counter Garchomp, most likely it has been stopped in its tracks because I now have over 700 attack and am ready to sweep. Before Garchomp dies, it will take at least one pokemon down with it, and probably more.

All I'm saying is that it's far too easy to set up in Doubles.
 
Actually, I think it's harder to set up in doubles. There's always the risk that one of your pokemon will get ganged up on, which means something that could usually take a hit and still set up might end up getting killed. Not to mention moves that hit both the opponents, like Blizzard and Rock Slide, which could mess one up.
 
StarmanXL said:
Okay, I'm a fan of double battle metagame, but it seems that everything is geared towards singles; in fact, I don't think this site even has a double battle standards. Sets need to be changed, certain pokemon become more useful, others not so much so, some common things such as Baton Passing become riskier, and moves that last for a set duration, such as Sunny Day and Trick Room, can be better exploited because the battles move faster and two pokemon on your team can benefit from it at the same time.

The doubles metagame is different, but no one ever seems to play it or make any serious effort to establish a real metagame for it. Some even say it requires less skill. Why is this? It seems to require more or different skill from single metagame.

Of course, there's the whole "Explosion + Protect" thing, which seems to be the primary reason people say doubles suck, but if it's really that gamebreaking, couldn't a clause just be instituted to prevent it? Besides, it can be countered by such things as Ghost types, Damp, Protect/Detect, Steel types, status ailments, and others. Besides, I believe that if more people played doubles, effective counters could spring up, making the strategy less effect and therefore less used.

So basically, what I'm trying to say is, why is double metagame so ignored? It has a lot of potential, and requires some different thinking and team building than singles.
Click to expand...

There's no better time to form a doubles metagame than now, I suppose, since the 4rth gen is still young. There are probably more usable Pokemon in doubles, due to weather effects, including:

Golduck: Yes, Golduck. It can prevent Explosions, or negate weather, depending on which strategy is more popular.

Quagsire, Toxicroak: Water Absorb and Dry Skin benefit Rain teams

Cherrim: Flower Gift.

Exeggutor: Clorophyll.

Abomasnow: Snow Warning (this has potential if used with stuff like Froslass and Mamoswine).

Froslass: Explosion immunity, Snow Cloak.

These are a few off the top of my head; although I don't currently play doubles, it has quite some potential. I may do this when Competitor comes out.
 
Doubles is fun... just the number of options that you can do successfully is cut down a lot. It's highly focused on just quick and hard hitting guys, and with two movepools at your disposal it's pretty easy to always have a super effective attack that will OHKO the other, meaning it often comes more down to who goes first than anything else. Earthquake + a Flying/Lev partner is of course standard practice, especially with Gyarados and Intimidate being so hugely overpowered on account of it effecting both.

Overall, it's fun, but just seems less balanced than singles, and matches more straightforward on account of it.
 
If cases like what you said are prominent in doubles, then people will come up with their own counters. Always lead with a low-speed hazer to Haze away all stat boosts at the end of the turn, as your second Poké switches to a counter. Cooper, since double battling opens so many new doors to set up, it SEEMS too easy- But there are equally many new doors to counter, and all it takes to be able to counter anything in doubles as you would in singles is thought and experience.

Good example:
The other day I double battled someone who led with Steelix and something else. The "something else" switched for Mismagius, the Steelix used Choice Scarf explosion, and I was already down by 2 Pokémon. Next time I battled the same person, I had a Damp Golduck on my team, BUT NOT IN THE LEAD. He started with the Steelix again- My first Pokémon used Focus Punch on steelix, my second switched to Golduck, his second switched to Mismagius, his explosion failed, my focus punch OHKOed.

Another thing I like about double battles is the general uselessness of walls. Unless you have two walls out at once, your foe can simply select a different target.

Bottom Line: People only say double battles take less strategy because they refuse to put the effort and experience into getting good counterstrategies. People are afraid of change, end story.
 
Start the match with:

Togekiss @ Leftovers
Defensive nature and EVs
Follow Me
Reflect
Air Slash
Softboiled/Roost

Clefable @ Leftovers
Magic Guard
Calm/Bold
HP/Defenses EV spread
Cosmic Power
Folow Me
Ice Beam
Softboiled/Moonlight

Have Togekiss Follow Me while Clefable Cosmic Powers up. After a few, heal 'em both and set up Reflect. Switch out Togekiss to bring in...

Regigas @ Leftovers
Slow Start
Adamant
252 Atk/rest in HP and defenses
Substitute
Return
physical attack
physical attack

Clefable uses Follow Me while Regigigas Subs. Use a combo of Follow Me, Softboiled, and Substitute to wait out five turns. After that, you're good to go.

Just an idea I had earlier.
 
Gooper Blooper said:
Start the match with:

Togekiss @ Leftovers
Defensive nature and EVs
Follow Me
Reflect
Air Slash
Softboiled/Roost

Clefable @ Leftovers
Magic Guard
Calm/Bold
HP/Defenses EV spread
Cosmic Power
Folow Me
Ice Beam
Softboiled/Moonlight

Have Togekiss Follow Me while Clefable Cosmic Powers up. After a few, heal 'em both and set up Reflect. Switch out Togekiss to bring in...

Regigas @ Leftovers
Slow Start
Adamant
252 Atk/rest in HP and defenses
Substitute
Return
physical attack
physical attack

Clefable uses Follow Me while Regigigas Subs. Use a combo of Follow Me, Softboiled, and Substitute to wait out five turns. After that, you're good to go.

Just an idea I had earlier.
Click to expand...
There. Previously 'useless' Pokémon that shine in double battles. Although a far, far superior strategy is to simply have out a Poké that has worry seed, and use that worry seed on its partner- The partner switches out for Regigigas, so that Regi isn't there originally so the opponent remains unaware of the strategy, meaning they're not remotely ready to counter it. This is a great set-up, obviously, but I'm sure if it becomes standard practice people will come up with easy counters- Such as, when something on the field learns worry seed, roar its partner expecting a gigas switch. Or, use taunt on the seeder to prevent it.

See, another example of an awesome setup, but multiple counters for the setup.
 
Every Pokemon has potential on doubles (even Wobb to prevent switching),the standard (and annoying) things like Spinners, Spikes, Stealth Rock, is absent from those matches, ubers can easily fight along OU and UU Pokes, those factors just makes doubles my favorite metagame. Its "stadium mode" is even better.
 
Cooper said:
However, in Doubles this changes. For example, lets say my two leads are Bronzong and Garchomp. My opponent can't counter either one with anything he has out currently, so he plans a switch. at the same time, my Bronzong sets up Light Screen and Garchomp Swords Dances. Whatever my opponent brings in to counter Garchomp, most likely it has been stopped in its tracks because I now have over 700 attack and am ready to sweep. Before Garchomp dies, it will take at least one pokemon down with it, and probably more.
Click to expand...

This is kinda assuming a lot, don't ya think? I mean, first off, a pokemon that can counter Garchomp can already be out on the field, not to mention there are still plenty of pokemon that can outspeed it (Gengar, Weavile, Salamence...). Then the opponent might gang up on your Garchomp or Bronzong before they can pull off anything. Not to mention the opponent might be willing to intentionally sacrifice one of their pokemon to stop your strategy, or they might set something up themselves while you're doing this which could leave you at a disadvantage. Your example seems pretty situational.
 
I'd love to see a double battle Metagame emerge. As stated before, it would be a nice breath of fresh air to see some previously underused pokes take center stage.
 
Cooper said:
However, in Doubles this changes. For example, lets say my two leads are Bronzong and Garchomp. My opponent can't counter either one with anything he has out currently, so he plans a switch. at the same time, my Bronzong sets up Light Screen and Garchomp Swords Dances.
Click to expand...

Bronzong is great in Doubles... but the Garchomp example above, not so much. It's x4 weakness to Ice is lethal in doubles, as you have two movepools to worry about. Due to speed, power and coverage, you can more than expect to see a Starmie or a Weavile as a lead, which will slaughter the Garchomp before it does anything, or force you to switch.

Personally, I don't really understand trying to set up in Doubles unless you are using Clefable or something as support. It's much easier, and generally more effective, to just try to sweep right away with two different types of attackers (Physical and Special) with the most coverage and the largest amount of speed. Setting up is also less successful for the fact that your opponent can easily gang up on something, and take it out if needed after the boosts.

Bronzong is the great equalizer in this respect, though, for having an uncommon weakness, great def and spec def, and the ability to avoid Earthquake. You can generally expect it to survive to get off a Trick Room, which could outright shut down a speed focused sweeping team in Doubles, or at least take two attacks to kill it, freeing up the other to do its thing.
 
I love doubles matches.
It has more of a rubber band feel to it. Even if you were ahead most of the match, if you get overconfident the opponent can turn it around really fast.
Not to say singles that doesn't happen, but do 15-20 good doubles matches and you see the difference from singles.
Also, IMO temporary status effects(confuse ray) and stat downs are even more useful in doubles in singles. Also keeping track of 4 speeds and figuring out the order each is going to go first when planning your attack is great fun for me.
 
I love 2v2 battles. The JAA really opened up the metagame and I have a pretty cool team planned for the Gamestop tourney if my is 2v2.

The thing about the 2v2 metagame is that there are a few distinct and set strategies that you pretty much HAVE to utilize to win. After that, it's rock-paper-scissors to determine who will win most of the time. The fun part is coming up with new strategies that are creative and will catch the opponent off guard. Once all the possibilities are exhausted, I believe that the 2v2 metagame will become stale. Standard 1v1 just allows for many more possibilities and potential Pokemon to be used.

I wrote this ADV 2v2 Uber guide a few months ago and it is one of the official Smogon articles. Expect to see me update it in the near future with new Pokemon, new items, new alternatives, and totally new strategies.
 
Speaking of new strategies, I have a personal favorite. Something with Discharge, partner Gyarados. Use Discharge, switch to electivire with Gyarados, and hope that Electivire gets hit by multiple electric attacks (thanks to Gyara being a magnet for electric). Abuse instant free speed ups. Profit.
 
You only need to do 3 or 4 double matches to feel the difference.

Double Battles are a totally different game than single matches. I would even argue that they require more strategy... but I haven't explored it enough to see if 2v2 "dead ends" with only a few potentially good strategies.
 
I'll tell you one thing right now: Singles is going to get stale long, long before Doubles will. The belief that there are only a handful of useful Doubles strategies is a myth. Like Boa says, people will come up with counters to any strategy that gains too much popularity. And the beauty of Doubles in D/P is that it doesn't take a whole team to counter most strategies. It usually just takes one move on one Pokemon to screw with it. Want to counter Earthquake/Flyer teams? Gravity. Trick Room teams? Taunt, Roar, or Whirlwind. Explosion? Damp, Protect, or Ghost-types.

The number of Pokemon that become usable in Double Battles is actually much higher than in Single Battles. The number of moves and items that become useful is also much greater.

Also, I know from experience that it's harder to stat up in Doubles, not easier. Stat-ups are like a big neon sign that says, "Focus-fire me to death!" just like using a Bronzong in Doubles is like shouting, "I'm using a Trick Room team! Taunt me!"

By the way, my claims here only apply when a reasonable tier is being played. Ubers in Doubles are no less unbalanced than they are in Singles.

The good news is that it won't be that hard this generation to find people who want to Double Battle. There are already several people who've posted to this thread who love Doubles. I'd be thrilled to have a match with any or all of you! So don't hesitate to train a Doubles team. I promise you that you'll be able to find opponents.
 
I remembered I made up a stratigy for doubles in uber involveing a kyogre and a machamp. Forgot how it went though...
 
Oh yeah, my sheer champ stratigy. You hoped they hit kyogre and let kyogre use sheer cold and have machamp use mimic.
 
Lightning Rod Rhyperiors may be more common in Double Battles.

Think about it...
Gyrados has two weaknesses. 4x Electricity, 2x Rock.
Countering Gyrados is hard at the best of times, but if you take away the Electric weak with Lightning Rod...

Oh, that does sound tasty.
(I never even liked these two Pokés in the first place)

If no one else has thought of this yet, I 'shotgun' it xDD
 
Except for the fact that Ice Beam and Hydro Pump are so popular in 2v2.

Rhyperior will have a hard time in 2v2 because of his low Sp Def. Lightningrod is no surprise and was used by opponents in Pokemon Colosseum.
 
FiveKRunner said:
Except for the fact that Ice Beam and Hydro Pump are so popular in 2v2.

Rhyperior will have a hard time in 2v2 because of his low Sp Def. Lightningrod is no surprise and was used by opponents in Pokemon Colosseum.
Click to expand...

He could have some merit in Sandstream teams (and some creative EV spreads), but he'll still get focus-smacked.
 
FiveKRunner said:
Except for the fact that Ice Beam and Hydro Pump are so popular in 2v2.

Rhyperior will have a hard time in 2v2 because of his low Sp Def. Lightningrod is no surprise and was used by opponents in Pokemon Colosseum.
Click to expand...
I knew I'd probably seen this somewhere before, but I couldn't quite place my finger on it. It was in the back of my mind somewhere... Thanks for reminding me.

I've never actually played 2v2 to be honest with you, so I wouldn't know.
Well thanks anyway.
 
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