The thing is that in order to run those numbers, Chandy has to run Modest, which means that if Heatran is Timid it will outspeed and kill with Earth Power after taking the Shadow Ball.
Guess what's the recommended nature for the SubTran set?
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Move Substitute
- Thread starter SomeoneStoleTheNameIWant
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The thing is that in order to run those numbers, Chandy has to run Modest, which means that if Heatran is Timid it will outspeed and kill with Earth Power after taking the Shadow Ball.
Guess what's the recommended nature for the SubTran set?
This time taking into account the Steel nerfs...
With Choice Specs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Bronzong: 332-392 (98.22 - 115.97%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Without:
252+ SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Bronzong: 222-264 (65.68 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Oh, ok. Then Heatran has to watch out for Chandy. That's a pretty freaking nice Calc right there, as now Chandelure is a counter for Heatran even if it carries substitute given that Chandy can shoot two Shadow Balls its way before Heatran smacks it down with Earth Power.
Excuse me if I am wrong, but steel =/= resisting dark and ghost does not mean jack shit here, as this is a discussion around substitute. Point being, hp ground can be useful, if only to take out tormentran behind it's substitute.
Thanks, Gold... As much as I'm loving all the calcs going around here, I was kind of asking about Substitute and its viability with all these Infiltrators and sound moves... Kay thanks.
What I meant was that someone was trying to see how much damage would be done to Heatran with Shadow Ball. Your post is valid for the discussion, I just assumed we were talking about Ghost attacks vs sub Heatran at that particular time.
Besides, as we already found out, Shadow Ball 2HKO's Substitute Heatran, which cannot afford to run Torment in any case. I'd go for some other attacking move instead of HP, like Energy Ball, for example.
Most dangerous substitute user is Gengar, which resists Bug Buzz.
As nice as Scrappy STAB Boomburst sounds, Exploud is not getting a spot in your team just to lolz at SubDisable Gengar, who Focus Misses it to death in any case.
Infiltrator mons are the best response to Substitute abusers. Noivern's Boomburst counts too, I guess. It realy depends on what Substitute mon you're facing. I would love to see the face of an Iron Fist Sub Conkeldurr when it gets hit by an Infiltrator Will-O-Wisp from Chandy before it gets it's payback or stone edge on. Priceless.
As nice as Scrappy STAB Boomburst sounds, Exploud is not getting a spot in your team just to lolz at SubDisable Gengar, who Focus Misses it to death in any case.
Infiltrator mons are the best response to Substitute abusers. Noivern's Boomburst counts too, I guess. It realy depends on what Substitute mon you're facing. I would love to see the face of an Iron Fist Sub Conkeldurr when it gets hit by an Infiltrator Will-O-Wisp from Chandy before it gets it's payback or stone edge on. Priceless.
I see what you mean.
It all depends on what your team needs, but since such a wide variety of mons have viable Substitute sets, you can pick which Infiltrator gives you your best bang for your buck.
Noivern and Crobat's great speed means they can be great revenge killers for a sweeper behind a Sub
Chandy's sheer power will help it muscle past bulkier threats, especially as its Stab Shadow Ball has only one resist and one immunity
Even Whimsicott can make use of Infiltrator, though it probably prefers Prankster in most cases
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Crobat guarantees that anything that is behind a Sub goes to 37.5% if the bat is carrying Super Fang. Even juicier: if you Super Fang before they Sub, they go to 50% and then to 25%. If hazards were laid before, the pokemon in question cannot set another sub and might as well die from STAB Brave Bird.
Who would Substitute in front of a Crobat? Beats men, but the possibility is there.
Chandy's main niche is Will-O-Wisping through Subs. It's just beautiful. Though I won't lie that a Specs Overheat after you took a quarter of your health to protect yourself has to suck balls.
Whimsicott's best niche is still Prankster. Funny thing is, the Prankster set with Sub now gets destroyed by other Infiltrator mons and even more so Crobat and Chandy, who carry super effective STAB.
Who would Substitute in front of a Crobat? Beats men, but the possibility is there.
Chandy's main niche is Will-O-Wisping through Subs. It's just beautiful. Though I won't lie that a Specs Overheat after you took a quarter of your health to protect yourself has to suck balls.
Whimsicott's best niche is still Prankster. Funny thing is, the Prankster set with Sub now gets destroyed by other Infiltrator mons and even more so Crobat and Chandy, who carry super effective STAB.
Ah, I was looking for a page like this.
So I heard sound-based moves bypass Substitute?
We all know what that means.
Bug Buzz =
So I heard sound-based moves bypass Substitute?
We all know what that means.
Bug Buzz =
Does this make Roar a better choice than Whirlwind in almost every set that this is possible?
Both Roar and Whirlwind already ignored substitute, so I don't really understand why Roar is listed, it didn't change at all.
Oh right
In that case it really is just Bug Buzz to consider.
Hardly anyone will be running Grasswhistle or Sing, far too unreliable.
And no one ever bothers with stat reducing moves such as Growl.
My point is that Chandelure would not "like this" because Flash Fire is generally more useful than Infiltrator.
What a random, entirely unpredicted, but completely necessary nerf.
Substitute as a move was incredibly powerful in its own right. While I didn't read much in the way of calls for it to be nerfed as a move, it was warranted to a degree. I hated Sub Kyu-B, Sub TKon, Sub Gyara, Sub Garchomp, all of these bulky offensive 'Mons that could run Substitute and had access to so much power through two moves at least that in certain cases, they could bypass set-up moves and just destroy teams regardless. I never anticipated a nerf but I'm somewhat glad one does exist.
This nerf was excellently done, though. The fact that it's just sound move users and Infiltrators that get it is excellent. Neither set is exceedingly distributed and gives Pokemon with access to one or the other a new niche they previously didn't have, giving them opportunities to fill a role they otherwise wouldn't possess or, in some cases like Crobat, help that Pokemon excel at what it already does. Overall, substitute is still an exceptionally powerful move that, when used correctly, makes your reading game a hell of a lot smoother for you, but there is now more counterplay than there was before.
I do think that this means you'll see Crobat and possibly Chandelure in OU as a result, as they now gain niches as stallbreakers but I don't see much else changing. Sound moves won't really be used for the sake of bypassing subs as, in certain cases, you sacrifice some to a decent amount of power to use them over a better move. It's simply just a nice change for the Pokemon that did use Bug Buzz or would use Boomburst that they wouldn't otherwise get.
Substitute as a move was incredibly powerful in its own right. While I didn't read much in the way of calls for it to be nerfed as a move, it was warranted to a degree. I hated Sub Kyu-B, Sub TKon, Sub Gyara, Sub Garchomp, all of these bulky offensive 'Mons that could run Substitute and had access to so much power through two moves at least that in certain cases, they could bypass set-up moves and just destroy teams regardless. I never anticipated a nerf but I'm somewhat glad one does exist.
This nerf was excellently done, though. The fact that it's just sound move users and Infiltrators that get it is excellent. Neither set is exceedingly distributed and gives Pokemon with access to one or the other a new niche they previously didn't have, giving them opportunities to fill a role they otherwise wouldn't possess or, in some cases like Crobat, help that Pokemon excel at what it already does. Overall, substitute is still an exceptionally powerful move that, when used correctly, makes your reading game a hell of a lot smoother for you, but there is now more counterplay than there was before.
I do think that this means you'll see Crobat and possibly Chandelure in OU as a result, as they now gain niches as stallbreakers but I don't see much else changing. Sound moves won't really be used for the sake of bypassing subs as, in certain cases, you sacrifice some to a decent amount of power to use them over a better move. It's simply just a nice change for the Pokemon that did use Bug Buzz or would use Boomburst that they wouldn't otherwise get.
Me and my friends are playing around right now and we found out Air Slash goes through Subs. I was wondering why this happens. Could someone explain this?
Was it on a simulator or the actual game?
Actual game.
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