Other Stall

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So I was wandering the Chaizard thread and I found this.

As usual, I avoided conventional thinking and went in my own direction. From my experiments, I found this:

Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spd (changed to 248 HP / 176 Spd / 84 SDef)
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Dragon Claw
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost

Sorry Dragon Dance lovers, but this is amazing. There isn't one Pokemon that's happy at the prospect of switching in to this, yet Charizard itself can switch in relatively easily. I mean, this moveset makes Grass/Ghost Pokemon cry, and beats all Rotom appliances after Mega evolving (it can stall out Hydro Pump, or Roost until it misses). Will-O-Wisp beats Gyarados 1v1, cripples incoming Pokemon (sup Azumarill? hi Tyranitar!), and trolls King's Shield. Dragon Claw is your main attack, while Flare Blitz should be used sparingly due to recoil (however, it's a constant threat to your opponent). Tip; use Will-O-Wisp against Skarmory, or Sturdy/Roost will compromise Charizard. Similarly, it's a good idea to Will-O-Wisp against Ferrothorn (especially if it happens to hold Rocky Helmet). The speed is to outrun Lucario before it can Mega evolve. More HP (and/or Speed) with less Attack is also viable.

This is a 359 Attack, 308 Speed, dual STAB physical Pokemon with excellent two move coverage; that's immune to burn, bulkier than you think (with an answer to all of its counters), and packing pseudo-Life Orb without recoil. Fear it.

Edit: obviously Heatran will stop this when it becomes available, but currently I've actually had most trouble dealing with Mega Venusaur (lol). When used well, Charizard is very often MVP.
Seems we got someone with a good idea here. Good recovery plus 78/111/85 bulk (last time I checked anyway) means Chairzard might have a place in stall after all.
 
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So, I tested that set with the updated EVs, and I changed flare blitz to EQ for better coverage and heatran. Brick break just wasn't enough. Had a stall team with 5 of 6 members when I saw that, and no mega (updating a gen 5 stall team to see how it ran).

It works. Lead with it, evolve asap. You lose a crucial lead turn, though. I have a team on it that I'll start working and perfecting for my third stall team, and I'm actually going to bump it past the second stall team to work on it. Excellent set, but it isn't an all-powerful wall. Just gave me some offensive power and has some nice resistances (Is actually neutral to water, resists electric, so...)

So much for my misdreavous team...

Edit: Any clue on what the speed tier is for?
 
Edit: Any clue on what the speed tier is for?
It's in the quote. The speed is for outspeeding regular Lucario.

Edit: I'm not sure why he made it outspeed Lucario. It wasn't made for a stall team at first, it was just for tanking. I just saw it and thought STALL MON!
 
Hmm... I'm guessing it can get jolly being the 'regular' set. Ergo, any 90 speed tiered pokes... Lemme check who has that speed tier, because the 176 jolly is actually a really nice offensive investment, or even plain defensive investment.

The only thing I saw is it will get excadrill outside of sand. The issue is, the chances of you TAKING lucario in non-mega is very low, as what person is switching in on a charizard x with a lucario? For me, it's just a tad too situational. Upping his mediocre health and giving that defensive tiering a boost would make him a monster, although he runs fine right now. Just justifying speed on a stall team is a bit difficult unless you're running taunt or scoring a specific KO (where luc doesn't really work, because mega evolving screws that).
 
So, I tested that set with the updated EVs, and I changed flare blitz to EQ for better coverage and heatran. Brick break just wasn't enough. Had a stall team with 5 of 6 members when I saw that, and no mega (updating a gen 5 stall team to see how it ran).

It works. Lead with it, evolve asap. You lose a crucial lead turn, though. I have a team on it that I'll start working and perfecting for my third stall team, and I'm actually going to bump it past the second stall team to work on it. Excellent set, but it isn't an all-powerful wall. Just gave me some offensive power and has some nice resistances (Is actually neutral to water, resists electric, so...)

So much for my misdreavous team...

Edit: Any clue on what the speed tier is for?
i seem to have a few problems with Charizard leads though since it is hard to know which Charizard is it. I find it quite odd that a stall team would use it. I think leading with it may suit a more hyper offensive style and would work fairly well with a team mate with Healing Wish.
 
I thought so, too. The team I converted had actually run a virzion LO to take care of some pokes like TTar and Jellicent, so I just subbed up another poke that could clear out threats like Heatran, volcarona and could be a pretty solid wall in some situations. Wasn't needed to be a core member as I was following a steel/water/grass core, but needed to help out. It actually, with willowisp, becomes really helpful (The team unfortunately runs two willowisps because it useds cofagrigus again as a dedicated Kan counter.) And dragon in general is a fantastic typing, so you don't lose too much by running it. Just don't expect a defensive wall, it falls closer to bulky offense with that spread.
 
Has anybody noticed that both sableye and M-Banette can spinblock and defogblock with their ghost typing and and prankster taunt. Also, Banette can hit hard with 165 atk. With taunt and sucker punch and pursuit i think. plus steel no longer resists it. Banette is also bulky enough to take a fireblast from timid choice specs heatran. Sableye has priority recover. Thats pretty important. Also, with priority d-bond, Banette can surefire stop a sweep with taunt and d-bond. Thats just gold. GF gift to stall this gen. A suprisingly small number of M-Khans run crunch, wierdly. I don't know the actual statistics, but i've only seen it twice now.

Also, I really don't like the fact that zard has 2 megas. Its confusing.
 
10% chance for Khan to be running crunch

No, I don't think Banette is worth a spot on a stall team. Sableye does everything you wish bannette to accomplish and bannette more or less suicides itself on whatever you need dead. That just doesn't seem like a fantastic idea considering you could have another mega slot and just move to counter whatever you need in that spot instead. Prankster taunt/dbond is reliant on surviving a hit (sometimes boosted) and then killing it, but you generally put yourself in a disadvantageous position. You're sitting in hoping they don't just switch out and possibly pursuit trap you.
 
Has anybody noticed that both sableye and M-Banette can spinblock and defogblock with their ghost typing and and prankster taunt. Also, Banette can hit hard with 165 atk. With taunt and sucker punch and pursuit i think. plus steel no longer resists it. Banette is also bulky enough to take a fireblast from timid choice specs heatran. Sableye has priority recover. Thats pretty important. Also, with priority d-bond, Banette can surefire stop a sweep with taunt and d-bond. Thats just gold. GF gift to stall this gen. A suprisingly small number of M-Khans run crunch, wierdly. I don't know the actual statistics, but i've only seen it twice now.

Also, I really don't like the fact that zard has 2 megas. Its confusing.
It isn't a "defogblocker" any more than any other Taunt user is because you can't prevent it just by switching in like a spinblocker - by the time Banette gets on the field, Defog has already done its job. No one is going to switch their defogger in on Banette because it could just use Taunt on the switch, whether it has Prankster or not. You would have to be in a situation where for some reason your opponent has brought in their defogger and then spends theirs first turn doing something other than using Defog so Banette can get in and then use Prankster Taunt on the second turn, which makes no sense.
 
When i said defog blocker, i meant it stops a defoger from switching in an attempting to defog. For example latias, who has just been volt switched onto the field, you can now predict this, switch in and taunt/pursuit that sucker.
 
Prediction is prediction, really... If you're that concerned with defog users, you probably want to design a poke with an elec, ice, fire set. (Flying/Dragon/Scizor).
 
The problem is, Latias and latios outspeed a LOT. while choice is an option, The pranksters are much better at this job of prediction that anybody else. I have actually seen a Scarfed defoger before, and it was pretty effective, defogging, tanking a hit, then switching to say, a fairy type to stop the next dragon claw or outrage or whatever. My point was, the pranksters can do both, and well.
 
If I may say something about defog. I think killing the defogger is a better way to keep your hazards than just taunting them and risking them coming in again. It's a tall order as stall doesn't always carry someone to thrash everything, but do you really want to strain yourself anticipating rapid spin and defog? I say stick to stealth rocks and focus on other ways to do damage than spikes.
 

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
would would you say is it best way of breaking a blob, heatran, mandibuzz, skarmory, x,x. Core? It is getting annoying to face and and needs quite a lot of double switching to break down.
the kyube. Fusion bolt / ice beam / earth power / d claw @ life orb is fierce as hell, and breaks apart stall ive found. Switch advantage with mega lucario can break that down as well.
 
Yeah, clefable stops Kyub if you play your cards well. Watching players playing stall, if they are able to beat Kyub without losing too much health, they're probably more than worth their salt. Kyub is like the expert stall's test to stop (difficult enough I doubt I could do it with any consistency, especially not against a good player). So yeah, Kyub is a great way to derail cores. Also, Garchomp-mega does all that and better if mixed. Mixed chomp is a nightmare.

If I may say something about defog. I think killing the defogger is a better way to keep your hazards than just taunting them and risking them coming in again. It's a tall order as stall doesn't always carry someone to thrash everything, but do you really want to strain yourself anticipating rapid spin and defog? I say stick to stealth rocks and focus on other ways to do damage than spikes.
Correct. Killing the defogger really gives you perfect advantages because you control what hazards are on the field. Just as killing a cleric allows you to status destroy other teams, defog users act as a counter to your end purpose. Having "Kill enemy defoggers" and "Kill enemy clerics" is an absolutely perfect wincon, because once they are down, you can permanently disable the enemy team.
 
the kyube. Fusion bolt / ice beam / earth power / d claw @ life orb is fierce as hell, and breaks apart stall ive found. Switch advantage with mega lucario can break that down as well.
I think Expert Belt Genesect might be a better option because if it gets the Download and Expert Belt boost its Ice Beam is just as powerful as Kyureum's due to Download and Expert Belt replicate STAB and Life Orb respectively . It doesn't have the natural bulk unlike Kyureum, but it is not weak to Stealth Rock. This Genesect also lives off of the notorious reputation of Choice Scarf Genesect, and that grant it some more value beyond whatever its base stats, moves, and EVs are. Like Scarf Genesect, it switches out quite often and that behavior may lead your opponent to think it is Choiced, but it has the luxury to switch attacks, especially at a critical juncture, when your opponent thinks it is Choiced. Unlike Kyureum, Genesect can break Fairies, since it can hit with a STAB super-effective attack with a rather nifty effect; Genesect essential has a 240 base attack move (80 x 1.5 x 2) against them while Kyureum only has a 100 move, although this is somewhat mitigated by Kyureum's higher base attack and investment. Flamethrower (maybe for a physical variant Blaze Kick is acceptable if the calculations show it is a worthy addition, but this runs the risk of hitting into Rough Skin, Iron Barbs, and Rocky Helmet, not the mention the possibility of a miss that can cause a rage quit or coronary event) and Ice Beam are also sin qua none, as Flamethrower hits Skarmory (on the special side) and Ferrothorn. and Ice Beam Gliscor, Hippowdon, and other ground types. However, Genesect's relatively low speed means diminished performance against offensive teams since it cannot even touch Landorus-I or Garchomp with its Ice Beam, even if your team features paralysis support. (I think Earth Power or Earthquake can KO it, since Lando-T did 90% with Earth Power on Lando-T on my Conkeldurr with about 200 HP Evs and no special Evs; Conkeldurr has naturally high bulk with some HP investment, while this Genesect has none.) X-Scissor is Genesect's strongest Bug physical STAB but due to its low base power and lack of coverage with Steel it is not optimal, and U-Turn is preferable since it can grab momentum against offensive teams. Extreme Speed provides some additional utility as a priority revenge killer (although this may give away that it is not Choiced), especially with max physical investment, and can give you a favorable endgame against teams whose Pokemon have low health.

The EVs are to be determined, although at least it should outspeed Jolly Dragonite and most Gliscor variants.

I am more interested in your elaboration because I perform poorly against stall teams. I wonder if the STAB physical Dragon, physical Electric, Special Earth, and STAB special Ice is a unique wall breaking permutation. Some calcs would be helpful. For Kyureum-B, electric is useful against Skarmory, Gyarados, Vaporeon, and Jellicent, and it can provide some neutral additional physical coverage against Steel. A STAB 80 base Dragon move doesn't seem that attractive though, since it only hits Dragons super-effectively, but most Dragons are faster than Kyureum. Earth Power doesn't have the benefit of STAB (or Sheer Force or a potential Download boost), but it is not walled by Heatran unlike Genesect. Perhaps Kyureum-B can take both of Talonflame attacks relatively well and KO back with Fusion Bolt, but it would get worn down by Rocks or scared out by a faster Pokemon or one with strong priority.
 
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I am more interested in your elaboration because I perform poorly against stall teams. I wonder if the STAB physical Dragon, physical Electric, Special Earth, and STAB special Ice is a unique wall breaking permutation.
The best set for breaking stall with sub Kyube is Ice beam/Fusion Bolt/Earth power or HP Fire/Substitute, with 216 SpA/56 HP/and the rest in speed, mild.

I also 6-0d Aj's stall team with a mixed Mega Chomp in sand, as it 2HKOd Mvenus, Slowbro, OHKOd Skarm, etc.

I think that the major threats most almost-completed stall teams should try to cover are: Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Pinsir, Mega Lucario, Band Terrakion, Band Tyranitar (watch out for the speedy ones that 2HKO your skarmory), Mega Heracross, Mega CharizardX, Mixed Aegislash, Talonflame, Kyurem-B, SD Bisharp, Manaphy, Taunt Gliscor, Taunt Mandibuzz, and Genesect.
 
The best set for breaking stall with sub Kyube is Ice beam/Fusion Bolt/Earth power or HP Fire/Substitute, with 216 SpA/56 HP/and the rest in speed, mild.

I also 6-0d Aj's stall team with a mixed Mega Chomp in sand, as it 2HKOd Mvenus, Slowbro, OHKOd Skarm, etc.

I think that the major threats most almost-completed stall teams should try to cover are: Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Pinsir, Mega Lucario, Band Terrakion, Band Tyranitar (watch out for the speedy ones that 2HKO your skarmory), Mega Heracross, Mega CharizardX, Mixed Aegislash, Talonflame, Kyurem-B, SD Bisharp, Manaphy, Taunt Gliscor, Taunt Mandibuzz, and Genesect.
That's called counter teaming and you know it -.-

You knew I was bringing that stall team so you went and dropped your ExcaChomp wall breaking team on it.
Just like Dread Arceus dropped kyurem-b, Mega garchomp, Talonflame, tyranitar and conckledurr on me and admitted to counter teaming. Granted, I took out chomp and kyurem that time and nearly won.
 
The best set for breaking stall with sub Kyube is Ice beam/Fusion Bolt/Earth power or HP Fire/Substitute, with 216 SpA/56 HP/and the rest in speed, mild.

I also 6-0d Aj's stall team with a mixed Mega Chomp in sand, as it 2HKOd Mvenus, Slowbro, OHKOd Skarm, etc.

I think that the major threats most almost-completed stall teams should try to cover are: Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Pinsir, Mega Lucario, Band Terrakion, Band Tyranitar (watch out for the speedy ones that 2HKO your skarmory), Mega Heracross, Mega CharizardX, Mixed Aegislash, Talonflame, Kyurem-B, SD Bisharp, Manaphy, Taunt Gliscor, Taunt Mandibuzz, and Genesect.
Set is walled by Chansey and special defensive mega Venusaur. It does a number on most stall teams tho, I'll admit.
 
The best set for breaking stall with sub Kyube is Ice beam/Fusion Bolt/Earth power or HP Fire/Substitute, with 216 SpA/56 HP/and the rest in speed, mild.

I also 6-0d Aj's stall team with a mixed Mega Chomp in sand, as it 2HKOd Mvenus, Slowbro, OHKOd Skarm, etc.

I think that the major threats most almost-completed stall teams should try to cover are: Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Pinsir, Mega Lucario, Band Terrakion, Band Tyranitar (watch out for the speedy ones that 2HKO your skarmory), Mega Heracross, Mega CharizardX, Mixed Aegislash, Talonflame, Kyurem-B, SD Bisharp, Manaphy, Taunt Gliscor, Taunt Mandibuzz, and Genesect.

Really, that is an impressive feat.

I initially dismissed Mega Garchomp as a good mega due to its lack of a "good" ability (since I don't plan on exploiting Sand) and lower speed. A 120 base special STAB Draco Meteor seems somewhat alluring now and it is not useless after being burned by Rotom-W. Some preliminary calculations show that it needs 108 attack EVs with a neutral nature in order to guarantee a KO on Max HP Mega Mawile (no Intimidate) (and no amount of special attack investment can OHKO with Fire Blast due to its 50/95 on the Special Side). Those EVs allows a KO with Stone Edge on max HP Dragonite and Gyarados after Stealth Rock.

I suppose its ability also screws over mixed Hippowdon, allowing a 2HKO with Earthquake and a OHKO on 252/0 Tyranitar.

I am not convinced though. It doesn't get a Download boost on Fire Blast, and unlike the classic MixMence set, it does not have Life Orb to help it gain critical 2HKOs on the Special Side. It does have a powerful STAB attack that doesn't lock it in and its typing allows it to be run on a team without Defog or Rapid Spin support. Draco Meteor gives it some one turn pop against weakened flying types or Levitators (without a lower risk compared to Stone Edge), but part (or arguably most) of a unboosted (by Specs or Life Orb as the Pokemon using may be using a Scarf or has a support role) Draco's utility is to hit other slower Dragons that are weak to it for revenge killing purposes. An unboosted Draco Meteor seems to lack power for wall breaking.

That's called counter teaming and you know it -.-
Yes, counter teaming is not a good idea. One's Pokemon should be designed to conform to the prevailing conditions of the metagame, not for performance against a particular team or battling style. But your objection is somewhat dismissive of your own team, since I consider it the epitome of stall.
 
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If the original poster is still active can you edit the first thread to include the viable stall pokemon? If you have time maybe even include the basic move sets for them too. It'll be nice to have a database of all the stallers to choose from.
 
Unfortunately, "viability" of a pokemon in stall is much more synergy based. If you want ideas on what to base your team around, that generally comes in the form of the top counter for a top tier threat.

Right now, Yuttt and I are waiting on Kangaskhan's ruling. We're hoping to get some support to write up an article about stall's viability this generation, but that might take some work. If you want to look for viable pokes, try to find something that supports about 350 HP and 400 defense (Special defense is kind of whatever you can find then, just have one or two really good special walls).
 

CyclicCompound

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If the original poster is still active can you edit the first thread to include the viable stall pokemon? If you have time maybe even include the basic move sets for them too. It'll be nice to have a database of all the stallers to choose from.
Stall is rather unique in that it's really, really hard to just throw "stallers" on a team and just play with it. Like Ajwf said, it's really about the synergy.

As a basic outline, you're going to want at least 4 walls—those classic defensive Pokemon with high defensive stats and/or really good defensive typings. It's generally better to go for more specialized walls—walls that either focus on physical defense or special defense—than find mixed walls, since not a lot of threats are able to go mixed. Even so, having a single mixed wall such as Jellicent or M-Venusaur is still helpful against stuff like MixApe and MixMence. As for a database, here are the following stall pokes I've found to be good from personal experience:

Hippowdon
Skarmory
Mandibuzz
Tangrowth
Slowbro
M-Aggron
M-Venusaur
Celebi
M-Scizor
Ferrothorn
Forretress
Gliscor


Blissey
Chansey
Slowking
Jellicent
Latias
Heatran
Cradily (in sand)
Tyranitar (in sand)


Jellicent
Mandibuzz
M-Venusaur
Slowbro w/ Assault Vest
Tangrowth w/ Assault Vest
Togekiss
Ferrothorn
Escavalier
Rhydon w/ Eviolite
Gligar w/ Eviolite


Forretress
Togekiss
Chansey
Blissey
Latias
Celebi
Mandibuzz
Skarmory
Golbat w/ Eviolite


Hopefully that helps somewhat. Again, it's not enough to simply "pick and choose" from this list, as a lot more than that goes into the construction of a stall team (which is, in all honesty, the hardest thing about stall imo.) But, of course, it's definitely rewarding when well done. Also, never yourself to this list. There are a lot of pokemon out there that can stall, given the right conditions.
 
I am not used to succeeding stall, but how well does it stack up against boosting sweepers? Stuff like Quagsire and phasing from Skarmory stop it. But how would a 3+ Manaphy do? It cannot break through Blissey but it can do about 50% to Sylveon.
 

Super Mario Bro

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I am not used to succeeding stall, but how well does it stack up against boosting sweepers? Stuff like Quagsire and phasing from Skarmory stop it. But how would a 3+ Manaphy do? It cannot break through Blissey but it can do about 50% to Sylveon.
Stall teams would probably need to use Unaware Clefable, Blissey/Chansey, Ferrothorn, or Mega Venusaur to beat Tail Glow Manaphy. Fortunately, they all fit pretty well on stall.
 
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