Other "The Offensive Bias."

[Dragontamer]

Fyi Most Slowbro (unless they don't have defence investment) can take a crunch from Mega Cario and Burn it with scald or (if you are dumb like me and run it) Focus Miss it into oblivion. But Mega Khan crushes them.

In my experience, Slowbro switches into the Nasty Plot and then dies to Dark Pulse. I run Rocky Helmet / Slack Off to assist against Mega-Khan sweeps. I guess Slowbro can run Assault vest to improve my odds vs Lucario... but that just shows that this `mon cannot handle both Mega-Khan and Mega-Luke at the same time.

Fire Blast/Scald/Ice Beam/Psychic has good coverage, but you might prefer Shadow Ball in the last slot for certain Ghosts.

IMO, go mixed with Psyshock. Tentacruel seems to switch into Slowbro a lot, and having a "physical defense" option tends to be quite useful in this metagame filled with Assault Vests.

 

[SergantGold]

In my experience, Slowbro switches into the Nasty Plot and then dies to Dark Pulse. I run Rocky Helmet / Slack Off to assist against Mega-Khan sweeps. I guess Slowbro can run Assault vest to improve my odds vs Lucario... but that just shows that this `mon cannot handle both Mega-Khan and Mega-Luke at the same time.



IMO, go mixed with Psyshock. Tentacruel seems to switch into Slowbro a lot, and having a "physical defense" option tends to be quite useful in this metagame filled with Assault Vests.

I was referring to the more common Physical Lucario (which frankly gets more of my team and has more raw power behind it to sweep teams; it also arguably can run priority easier, as physical has higher power moves) I'm also considering replacing CM for coverage/psyshock. Focus Blast has just saved me so many times because fighting offers suck great coverage.

 

[Dragontamer]

Vacuum Wave == 80 Base Power after Adaptability. Bullet Punch / Extreme Speed == 80 Base Power after Adaptability. I guess there is 145 Atk vs 140 Sp. Attack, but that is a negligible amount of damage. +2 Adaptability Vacuum Wave OHKOs 252/252+ Tyranitar in a Sandstorm, so Special Mega-Lucario is most certainly NOT lacking in power.

Frankly, special Lucario is where its at. Physical Mega-Lucario is totally outclassed by Mega-Khan anyway. Maybe after Mega-Khan is banned people should run physical luke...

 

[SergantGold]

Vacuum Wave == 80 Base Power after Adaptability. Bullet Punch / Extreme Speed == 80 Base Power after Adaptability. I guess there is 145 Atk vs 140 Sp. Attack, but that is a negligible amount of damage. +2 Adaptability Vacuum Wave OHKOs 252/252+ Tyranitar in a Sandstorm, so Special Mega-Lucario is most certainly NOT lacking in power.

Frankly, special Lucario is where its at. Physical Mega-Lucario is totally outclassed by Mega-Khan anyway. Maybe after Mega-Khan is banned people should run physical luke...

CC is far better than Aura sphere. Either way all variants are broken, and a broken set outclassed by an even more broken mon only means that you can wait longer before your broken mon is removed.
My speech is broken ban pls

 

[Darkamber8828]

Megas aren't really seeing enough use either. Aside from Kanga, I've seen Charizard, Scizor, Tyranitar, maybe a few Venusaur... Nobody uses Lucario, and even Scizor and Tyranitar are rare. Why hasn't anybody tried Mega Alakazam? Its explosive offensive stats and Trace ability are just bursting with undiscovered potential. Or (again) Mega Banette. Ghost typing, base 165 Attack with Shadow Sneak, Prankster WoW, Taunt, and Destiny Bond... With good prediction, Mega Banette is probably a better Kanga check than Sableye. Dark-typing is really good right now. Mega Absol gets Magic Bounce and base 150 / 115 / 115 offenses. Tasty Sucker Punch, WoW, ect. This thing should be everywhere.

Lucario-M is amazingly good, Scizor-M is one of the best Defoggers and a good SD sweeper. Support Tyranitar wants Stealth Rock and Leftovers, though, and DD TTar-M is still very slow after one boost. Nobody cares about Alakazam-M because it doesn't have Magic Guard Sash or Life Orb, which is the only reason it became OU in the first place. Nobody cares about Banette because it's outclassed by Sableye, who has STAB Foul Play, Leftovers, and, more importantly, reliable recovery. Absol-M is really hard to sweep with because of Sucker Punch prediction.

 

[Jaroda]

IMO, go mixed with Psyshock. Tentacruel seems to switch into Slowbro a lot, and having a "physical defense" option tends to be quite useful in this metagame filled with Assault Vests.

Ah yes Psyshock, I knew there was another. I even used it myself. Can be somewhat handy, but Psychic is so much better against Conkeldurr, well, the Bulk Up ones at least. Psyshock is indeed be better if they have Assault Vest. Shadow Ball is good for Jellicent of course, although Fire Blast would hit Aegislash, Trevenant and Ghourgeist harder anyway so its probably better to forego Shadow Ball all together on second thought.

 

[ryan]

Frankly, special Lucario is where its at. Physical Mega-Lucario is totally outclassed by Mega-Khan anyway. Maybe after Mega-Khan is banned people should run physical luke...

Uh, it's not outclassed at all. If you're having problems finding a reason to run Mega Lucario over Mega Kangaskhan, try its ridiculous base 112 Speed that very few viable Pokemon can outrun. Mega Lucario is a phenomenal Pokemon, whether you're running its physical or special set. As far as pure damage output is concerned:

252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 243-288 (71.2 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 284-336 (83.2 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

By no means is it outclassed. Mega Kangaskhan is just easier to run because it has the extra bulk and the passive way of setting up. I'm always much more concerned when I see a Lucario in Team Preview than when I see a Kangaskhan.

Regardless, both of the Pokemon further the so-called offensive bias. They're both incredibly powerful attackers that are moderately-to-incredibly easy to run.

 

[branflakes]

In response to the "offensive bias" that I have also noticed rather quickly, I threw together an anti-meta team. This team consists of Rotom-H, Mandibuzz, Sableye, Dugtrio, Tentacruel and Toxic Orb Breloom.

This team is incredibly effective on a ladder, and thus is a testament to how stale many OU teams are nowadays. I'll break it down:

Def Rotom-H for Genesect, Talonflame, Mamoswine and SR leads that do not like getting burned. Also checks Thundurus (T/I), Landorus (T/I)
SDef Mandibuzz for Aegislash, Specs Latios, Landorus and almost any other powerful special attacker. Also Defog support.
Sableye for Kangaskhan and many other notable physical attackers.
Dugtrio for Heatran, Excadrill, Tyranitar, (Mega) Lucario and revenge killing with an intact sash.
SDef Toxic Orb Breloom for Rotom-W, slow setup sweepers, Chansey, Blissey, miscellaneous shenanigans. Surprisingly effective again heavy offense once it sets up a free sub against the Rotom-W that is on literally every team.
Def Tentacruel for Azumarill, Keldeo, checks Lucario and covers the rest of the team's weaknesses.

A team like this should NOT get me something like a 50-15 ratio on the Pokebank ladder. The current metagame and cookie-cutter offensive teams just beg for a rise in anti-meta threats. With permanent weather removed, the ability to design anti-meta teams is easier than ever.

 

[Zebstrika]

I think the first thing is that you can turn an offensive pokemon into a setup sweeper much easier than you can with a defensive pokemon. Throw on some stupidly powerful mega with swords dance or similar, force out a defensive pokemon that can't threaten you at the moment, nab a free boost and get working. An offensive pokemon can do that because they can outspeed their counters and muscle through them after a boost. They can do it because they only need 1 turn to become totally dangerous.

Defensive pokemon can't do the same thing, they can't become unbreakable walls after a single free turn. First, they are more susceptible to passive damage, so it doesn't matter how high your defenses are. Second, the opponent can bring in a strong attacker with a super effective attack and fire it away a lot easier (if you do that against an offensvie sweeper, there's a good chance it gets hit on the switch or outsped and KO'd). Also, if the opponent's defensive sweeper isn't putting pressure on you, you can use Roar or something similar to deal with it.

Since stall thrives on taking a lot of turns to wear out the opponent, and HO often needs just a single one of those turns to really screw up the opponent's team with some of these megas, you can see why it's hard to run.

 

[Yottas]

There are a few reason why people tend to use (H)O-Teams.

• The metagame is still new and we don't have a database like we have for Gen V
  
• Stall Teams are more difficult to build than offensives teams, because you have to take care of synergies etc.

-> It's very hard to build a good stall team, especially if you don't have much experience with stall yet.

• Broken things like MK and ML makes it hard to build a good stall team, because you either waste a teamslots with counters to those and maybe lose against other sweepers because you don't have enough moveslots left to stop those (like MP (Mega-Pinsir)) or you lose against ML and/or MK.
• The metagame is broken because it still new and many pokemon who once were uber are tested in OU again
• Many offensive Pokemon are hyped

-> We have to wait for the metagame to become balanced and the hypes to settle down, then stall will be more played.

• And don't forget it's way easier to ladder with offensive teams than with stall teams, so the former will be played more because they are more effective.

Yottas

 

[lordkira]

After basing my team around o fight off against Mega Khan, it's been a breeze to get to the pro-1850 rating, which is by no means a good ring to have (not even close). What I've been realizing is the terror that is Mega Lucario.
Mega Lucario, unlike Mega Khan, is frail. This makes it harder for it to setup.
The ridiculousness of Mega Lucario is that even without setup, the ability+STAB gives it power level of ridiculousness proportions. And the most terrifying thing about it is that both its physical and special sets, and mixed set to a certain degree, are both top-tier, arguably-broken sets on their own. The mind game of trying to fig out which set the mega lucario is running frustrates me to no end.

Hell, I've been having more trouble against Mega Lucario than I ever have with Mega Khan.
It's probably because my rating never left ~1950 but it just scares the shit out of me.

 

[Jayd]

Lucario-M is amazingly good, Scizor-M is one of the best Defoggers and a good SD sweeper. Support Tyranitar wants Stealth Rock and Leftovers, though, and DD TTar-M is still very slow after one boost. Nobody cares about Alakazam-M because it doesn't have Magic Guard Sash or Life Orb, which is the only reason it became OU in the first place. Nobody cares about Banette because it's outclassed by Sableye, who has STAB Foul Play, Leftovers, and, more importantly, reliable recovery. Absol-M is really hard to sweep with because of Sucker Punch prediction.

Que? Adamant DD TTar-M outspeeds max speed 130s. That's not slow by any standards I'm familiar with. If you're trying to sweep with Absol-M you're using him wrong: He's best for assassinations and screwing over switches. Banette can also be of more use to some teams with its monstrous attack and Destiny Bond. I won't quibble about the rest of your points though.

 

[Momochuu]

You don't win games by being a unique snowflake.

 

[Sequins]

You don't win games by being a unique snowflake.

ouch. Scientist searching the antarctic will never find anything colder.

You don't learn a damn thing about strat if you're always (key word) running generic teams. The more varied you are, the more you learn about certain playstyles role and how they're affected by hyper offense, the better you get at a game.

I'd rather be considered a decent player on the ladder and have a better idea on strategy than to sit on the top of a tier using the most boring as hell team any day.

 

[Jaroda]

You don't win games by being a unique snowflake.

Depends on the shape of the flake.

Many pokes are only as good as the competition. There are some pokes that will always remain good and highly used, like Gengar and Garchomp. But if you consistently know what the top threats are then its very easy to use otherwise niche pokes that, in the current meta environment, thrive in.

I would always much rather face a poke that, while really effing strong, predictable as hell. Sand Rush Excadrill in the beginning of Gen V was an example. Jolly/Balloon/Sword Dance/ Edge Quake. It made it mentally very easy to prepare for, even if it was really strong. Pokes like Mega Venusaur, Mega Lucario, Heatran, Tyranitar etc. can run a million effective sets and it's when you don't know what's safe that you end up accidentally throwing a poke away like a Ferrothorn to Venusaur's HP Fire, Heatran being scarved, or Tyranitar carrying Ice Beam. All things that are meant to immediately take down would be counters. I don't know about you, but when I see a Kanga the overall strategy never really changes, it usually comes down to whether it has Sucker Punch or Crunch. But what the hell can you safely switch into a fresh Garchomp for instance? Is it a wall breaker? Scarved? Mixed? Sub+Dragon Tail? Guess wrong and you may have needlessly lost an MVP for your team.

That's why common set lists, for pro players, help tell you what to prepare for. Very few mon have one be-all-end-all set that is always superior. Good players know how to tweak a mons EVs and give it otherwise unconventional moves to handle specific threats for the team as a whole.

So this predictable HO style may be common on the ladder, but how successful is it at the top if you only rely on sets everyone is accustomed to?

 

[SkiGloves]

Mega Banette

I think you might have a problem November Blue. You're suggesting Mega Banette for just about everything, but it has several problems. The biggest being it cannot come in on something and mega evolve to land a prankster speed Will-o-wisp or Thunder Wave. It lacks the defences to pull off a prankster role well and it lacks recovery outside of pain split. I've seen attempts to make use of cotton guard too, but it failed miserably.

These might not be that much of a problem if it could threaten opposing pokémon the turn it megas. 165 attack just isn't enough:
0+ Atk Mega Banette Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 210-248 (75.5 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Banette Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 246-290 (88.4 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

Mega Banette just doesn't seem OU worthy. I've tried it, I might be trying to use it wrong, but it just didn't seem to perform well. As a spin blocker in UU though? I could probably get some use out of it. Here in OU though it's just not enough of a threat.

 

[Ghostbone]

There are a few reason why people tend to use (H)O-Teams.

• The metagame is still new and we don't have a database like we have for Gen V
  
• Stall Teams are more difficult to build than offensives teams, because you have to take care of synergies etc.

-> It's very hard to build a good stall team, especially if you don't have much experience with stall yet.

To expand on this, stall teams essentially rely on checking/countering everything, and always keeping hazards in your favour.
Whereas on an offensive team I can get away with having no switch in to Mega Pinsir as long as nothing really gives it a free switch in, and I have talonflame to revenge kill.
In general this makes a viable full stall team really hard to make (impossible last gen OU), at the most people generally go for 5 bulky mons/walls and a cleaner/revenger. You need a failsafe for when something manages to set-up on you.

I'd rather be considered a decent player on the ladder and have a better idea on strategy than to sit on the top of a tier using the most boring as hell team any day.

That's a really scrubby mindset
Pretty sure the guy at the top of the ladder knows far better strategies for winning than you do, rofl.

 

[Ajwf]

So this predictable HO style may be common on the ladder, but how successful is it at the top if you only rely on sets everyone is accustomed to?

HO is at the top (along with bulky offensive variants) but predictable it is not. Most of it is simply who has a team more built to beat the opponent's team and then has a few lures that you wouldn't quite see anywhere lower. A lot of kangaskhans, too... most of them played well. If you don't have a lucario, charizard, or kan (and even charizard is sketchy), you're doing something wrong.

That's a really scrubby mindset
Pretty sure the guy at the top of the ladder knows far better strategies for winning than you do, rofl.

I've now done both, being up at the top and just kind of hanging around in the 1800-1900 area, and I kind of do prefer to just play in the 1800-1900 area with really well built teams. A, they're much more unique and B, it doesn't take 20 minutes to find a game. But for the strategy part, yeah I can say that the top group really knows what they're doing, but I feel like some of the upper area has just gotten their on the shoulders of some insanely OP garbage. Whether the strategies to win are far better or Sorry Duggy just knows what his team needs to do to win, I don't know. Haven't gotten to play him yet and it is an opportunity I'm not looking forward to.

 

[sidakarya]

I really have to admit from playing on the ladder recently, that this metagame is really astonishingly bad. I don't think, I ever see such a lack of variety in not only Pokémon but playstyles; HO with M-Luke, M-Khan, Genesect, Aegislash, maybe Charizard is all to see as far as the eye goes.

I do think, that this whole bias is because the current metagame is really unstable and unbalanced. A lot of things that really shouldn't be OU *COUGHKANGASKHANCOUGHGENESECT* are making OU into their hunting grounds and we've not yet removed the things most outright detrimental to a diverse metagame. As long as M-Khan and M-Luke are tearing apart defensive cores with little to no support, you're not going to see many stall teams. I'm not completely lost on hope for this game though. There's plenty of potential for a slower metagame than last gen - the metagame overall already appears bulkier - in a few months when the game has settled down, I would expect it to turn into something other than the BURNALLLOOTALLKILLALL environment we have now.

 

[Jaroda]

HO is at the top (along with bulky offensive variants) but predictable it is not. Most of it is simply who has a team more built to beat the opponent's team and then has a few lures that you wouldn't quite see anywhere lower. A lot of kangaskhans, too... most of them played well. If you don't have a lucario, charizard, or kan (and even charizard is sketchy), you're doing something wrong.

Right, that was my point. Teams at the top have to be ready to take the top common threats. You can usually tell the difference between a pro and someone newer like in RMTs for example when they talk about covering specific threats, as opposed to covering various types. "Close Combat lets me hit Steel types that give me trouble." Except Aegislash, Skarmory, Klefki, and arguably Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn, and you'll never outspeed Mega Luke anyway, etc...

 

[felipelana]

In my case I usually use offensive pokemon simply because i find them more fun to play. Play with the mind of the oponent to find an oportunity to setup and sweep. But this is just how I like to do it. Not the best way, or the most effective :)

 

[farranpoison]

As the metagame is right now, with Mega Mom and Mega Luke Skywalker all running around, and even with Genesect terrorizing teams, it has really drove me away from trying new setups out on PS, because I know that I'll have to gear every team I make to face those threats, which limits a lot of variability. Once these super offensive threats are gone (like they should be) I'm sure more balanced/stallier teams will find a way to thrive in the metagame, rather than putting all nuclear warheads on your team and blasting through mindlessly.

 

[SergantGold]

As the metagame is right now, with Mega Mom and Mega Luke Skywalker all running around, and even with Genesect terrorizing teams, it has really drove me away from trying new setups out on PS, because I know that I'll have to gear every team I make to face those threats, which limits a lot of variability. Once these super offensive threats are gone (like they should be) I'm sure more balanced/stallier teams will find a way to thrive in the metagame, rather than putting all nuclear warheads on your team and blasting through mindlessly.

I finally figured it out: Mega Mom is Mega Luke's mother!

But on a more serious note, I think that once Mega Mom , Mega Luke, and (hopefully) Genesect are gone, the Metagame will improve tenfold. There still might be an excess of Greninja and Talon due to people thinking they are better than they actually are, but otherwise it will have a lot of variety.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I agree with Treeko . I have no idea what you're talking about November Blue because I've seen every Pokemon you've mentioned more than enough, and in numbers I thought was reasonable considering their overall ability. Pokemon that have more general utility will always see more use than niche Pokemon

(also Mega Luke is everywhere so I kind of stopped reading after you said you'd seen barely any...)

 

[Orga777]

I finally figured it out: Mega Mom is Mega Luke's mother!

But on a more serious note, I think that once Mega Mom , Mega Luke, and (hopefully) Genesect are gone, the Metagame will improve tenfold. There still might be an excess of Greninja and Talon due to people thinking they are better than they actually are, but otherwise it will have a lot of variety.

Talonflame is way good, though, due to its incredible speed. I love CBing Talonflame for that reason... And dat Priority BB... It is MURDER on most pokemon. You can even run a support build with Priority Tailwind and WoW. Not sure about Greninja. Having stab everything is nice, but that can backfire. Still a decent pokemon, though.

However, I do agree that once Genesect and M-Kanga go be-bye, things will settle down as well.