Doublade and Aegislash aren't that good as spinblockers because right now the rapid spinner running rampant right now is Excadrill which takes a shit on unboosted Aegislash. Trevenant is a much better spinblocker.
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Other Stall
- Thread starter ShootingStarmie
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Yeah I am not big on spin blocking either, I mean sure its 'nice' but honestly I would rather deal with real threats to the team then dedicating a slot just for spin-blocking. A lot of spin blockers can be easily worn out to, spin-blockers only become pivotal if the other team is also playing defensively.
I really never have a dedicated spinblocker, either. However, quite a few of my stall teams involve Specially Defensive Jellicent, one of my favorite defensive mons, and when spinblocking is possible/smart (against, say, defensive Starmie), then I'll go ahead and do it. But I don't pack Jellicent because it's a spinblocker; I pack Jellicent because it's a good defensive Pokemon and it has amazing synergy with so many other mons. A lot of the time, Jellicent (and a lot of other "spinblockers") aren't good matchups against other spinners, like offensive Donphan (2HKOs with EQ) and Tentacruel (can just give me the middle finger and set up T-Spikes). In fact, many players won't even spin on the first turn in because a stall team with a ghost type can be pretty predictable when hazards are up. So why bother spinblocking when it's so much more rewarding to simply reset hazards and wear down the opponent by forcing even more switches and denying even more momentum? The only time I really care about spinblocking is if my games hinge on something like Volcarona dying to entry hazard damage. But if the deciding factors of my games are stuff like Volcarona dying to hazard damage, I'm not playing my games right.
Besides, with Defog becoming super viable, it's even more worthless to carry a dedicated spinblocker anymore, even if things like Charizard run rampant. I personally think it's pretty funny how teams weak to SR go to great lengths to get rid of it. A lot of the time, you can get just as much success playing around your opponent trying to get rid of hazards as you can setting up hazards, especially with stuff like T-Spikes. I honestly think the whole point of T-Spikes is to make your opponent freak out because their Calm Mind Keldeo or something is going to be put on a timer.
Besides, with Defog becoming super viable, it's even more worthless to carry a dedicated spinblocker anymore, even if things like Charizard run rampant. I personally think it's pretty funny how teams weak to SR go to great lengths to get rid of it. A lot of the time, you can get just as much success playing around your opponent trying to get rid of hazards as you can setting up hazards, especially with stuff like T-Spikes. I honestly think the whole point of T-Spikes is to make your opponent freak out because their Calm Mind Keldeo or something is going to be put on a timer.
I confess I've been using a Blissey, which even in this late generation is still Blissey. Yeah, we got a bunch of new fancy special walls--Goodra, Florges, Slyveon, Dragalge, not to mention Assault Vest pokes. But none of them, not even AV Tyranitar, work with the same reliability as Blissey, mostly because gamefreak is ridiculously stingy with giving out instant recovery. Everyone seems to think Chansey is superior this generation (there's an analysis for Chansey but not Blissey, and the viability thread listed Chansey as several tiers higher), but Chansey can't do anything to Gengar (which is one of the main reasons to use a pink blob in the first place), and being hit harder by entry hazards and burn is a huge damper on its usefulness--things like Mega-Charizard Y, Volcarona and boosted Draco Meteor users (including Focus Energy Kingdra), are unable to get past 0HP/252 SpD Blissey regardless, so Chansey's overkill bulk isn't as necessary--having an attack like Flamethrower is extremely useful to shave off over 50% health from Ferrothorn, Lucario and even some Aegislash that practically make a career of switching into you.
Yeah, things Like Mega Lucario or whatever can double switch in on it or whatever, but it's not like sweepers won't do the same to Chansey, Goodra, Florges and Sylveon too. And if I'm going to be set-up bait anyway, I might as well go whole hog and choose the most effective special-walling option.
Best option I've found is Seismic Toss, Flamethrower, Toxic and Softboiled. Seismic Toss can be dropped for Aromatherapy--if you don't use Flamethrower, you're really skirting the line where you might be better off with Chansey.
Yeah, things Like Mega Lucario or whatever can double switch in on it or whatever, but it's not like sweepers won't do the same to Chansey, Goodra, Florges and Sylveon too. And if I'm going to be set-up bait anyway, I might as well go whole hog and choose the most effective special-walling option.
Best option I've found is Seismic Toss, Flamethrower, Toxic and Softboiled. Seismic Toss can be dropped for Aromatherapy--if you don't use Flamethrower, you're really skirting the line where you might be better off with Chansey.
Excuse me, but I thought all the egg moves were released in the new guide in Japan.
On we're those just the damn Kalos only dex mon egg moves?
Either way, just wait for tutors for him to get pain split.
I've been meaning to say this
Doublade is better then aegis for stall.
I've been using following Stall team: Skarmory/Chansey/Mega Venusaur/Heatran/Mandibuzz/Garchomp.
The problem with stall is that every generation more and more pokemon have to be checked. Because it's impossible to check all of them, you have to take into account the most common ones. Skarmory is a Spiker and Phazer, while taking care of pokemon like Mamoswine, Scizor, Dragonite, most Garchomp and Fairies. Chansey is the cleric and WishPasser. It walls most special moves and absorbs status. Mega Venusaur is an interesting pokemon. Sleep Powder is very beneficial, as it essentially disables one of your opponents threats. This makes it just so much easier to stall effectively. It also does alright against Mega Lucario, Rotom-W and Breloom. Heatran is the Stealth Rocker and the Talonflame check. It also spreads Poison and burns. Mandibuzz helps against opposing Stall with Taunt and Defog. It also beats all kinds of Aegislash reliably. Garchomp is the Scarfed revenge killer and late game sweeper. Without it setup sweepers could break through your team, and it gives you a win condition against a weakened team, rather than stalling for way too many turns.
I don't think Stall is dead really, in fact it's possibly the strongest playstyle atm. A lot of people are using standard cookiecutter teams atm which are just a snack for a solid stall team. Defog only made stall that much stronger, because even if your opponent has a Defog user, if he's not using stall then he's getting worn down first for sure. He can't even fight back with hazards of his own, so it's a losing battle for him.
The problem with stall is that every generation more and more pokemon have to be checked. Because it's impossible to check all of them, you have to take into account the most common ones. Skarmory is a Spiker and Phazer, while taking care of pokemon like Mamoswine, Scizor, Dragonite, most Garchomp and Fairies. Chansey is the cleric and WishPasser. It walls most special moves and absorbs status. Mega Venusaur is an interesting pokemon. Sleep Powder is very beneficial, as it essentially disables one of your opponents threats. This makes it just so much easier to stall effectively. It also does alright against Mega Lucario, Rotom-W and Breloom. Heatran is the Stealth Rocker and the Talonflame check. It also spreads Poison and burns. Mandibuzz helps against opposing Stall with Taunt and Defog. It also beats all kinds of Aegislash reliably. Garchomp is the Scarfed revenge killer and late game sweeper. Without it setup sweepers could break through your team, and it gives you a win condition against a weakened team, rather than stalling for way too many turns.
I don't think Stall is dead really, in fact it's possibly the strongest playstyle atm. A lot of people are using standard cookiecutter teams atm which are just a snack for a solid stall team. Defog only made stall that much stronger, because even if your opponent has a Defog user, if he's not using stall then he's getting worn down first for sure. He can't even fight back with hazards of his own, so it's a losing battle for him.
Cool: How does you team do against conkledurr? Does Venusaur helps with that? I also run the chansey/heatran/skarmory core. Is good. It walls many things in the meta right now, but blisey and heatran die to fighting moves and sometime not even skarm cant take them so well. Conkledurr is faster than Skarm so if I roost before it drain punches I just take double damage. It also gets an attack boos if I paralyze it with chansey on the switch so is a real pain in the ass to deal with. Is one reason why I run Deoxys-D.
What do you guys think of Deoxys D in stall teams? I would expect it to see more play considering it was Uber last Gen
Interesting that so many people are no longer running spinn blocker. I guess it makes sense with defog now being so popular. I run trevenant to counter excdarill but maybe I will just change it for a bulkier poke and forget spinn blocker entirely.
I also run Mega kanga as a finisher since this thing alone can sweep entire teams after they are weakenned/burned/paralyzed by my team. And I really mean entire teams.
In this game I made a huge mistake early that should have costed me the match (sending a weakenned bliss against latios psyshock), my opponent got me to 5-2, and then kangaskhan killed all of his 5 pokemons at the end: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pokebankoubeta-69682324 It proves how broken kangaskhan is. You can even slap it onto a stall team, play badly, and win!!
I have also seen many people recommending m-venusaur on a stall team. I have a qeustion. Is running sleep sporea good idea on a stall team? Or would something like toxic or stun spore be better? Now that the sleep counter doesn't reset by switching out, it seems like somebody against a stall team would just find many chances to send his sleeping pokemon to wake it up. But despite that, sleep spore is steel sleep spore, one of the best mmoves in the game.
What do you guys think of Deoxys D in stall teams? I would expect it to see more play considering it was Uber last Gen
Interesting that so many people are no longer running spinn blocker. I guess it makes sense with defog now being so popular. I run trevenant to counter excdarill but maybe I will just change it for a bulkier poke and forget spinn blocker entirely.
I also run Mega kanga as a finisher since this thing alone can sweep entire teams after they are weakenned/burned/paralyzed by my team. And I really mean entire teams.
In this game I made a huge mistake early that should have costed me the match (sending a weakenned bliss against latios psyshock), my opponent got me to 5-2, and then kangaskhan killed all of his 5 pokemons at the end: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pokebankoubeta-69682324 It proves how broken kangaskhan is. You can even slap it onto a stall team, play badly, and win!!
I have also seen many people recommending m-venusaur on a stall team. I have a qeustion. Is running sleep sporea good idea on a stall team? Or would something like toxic or stun spore be better? Now that the sleep counter doesn't reset by switching out, it seems like somebody against a stall team would just find many chances to send his sleeping pokemon to wake it up. But despite that, sleep spore is steel sleep spore, one of the best mmoves in the game.
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Yeah. Conkeldurr really can't touch physically defensive Venusaur. Your best move would be: go into Venusaur -> Sleep Powder -> Sludge Bomb until Conkeldurr dies. When it wakes up, Sleep Powder again. Who uses Conkeldurr anyway with Aegislash/Talonflame everywhere lol? Conkeldurr wasn't very good in BW, but in XY it's really weak. Also because Fairy types wall it now and hit it for SE damage with Moonblast/Dazzling Gleam.
Assault Vest Conkeldurr is a thing, and its pretty good. Not quite as good of an anti-stall mon as the old Bulk Up Guts set, but its still something you need to be aware of.
Yeah, AV conkledurr can be really good. True, fairies wall it but the fact remains that he is still one of the few pokemon able to deal with both skarmory and blissey. Also, with so many people running status inducer such WoW rotom or klefki, this thing can come in and get a 1.5 Atk boost for free. Another plus point is that it can run knock off which is quite a decent move this Gen.
Just wanted to mention that Excadrill is an option on stall teams, and it actually covers quite a lot of offensive threats with a SpD set. Assuming a set of Earthquake / Rapid Spin / Shadow Claw / Iron Head @ Leftovers, max Atk, max SpD, and an Adamant nature (or max HP / max SpD if you don't care about getting past Trevenant), you can check very dangerous Pokemon to stall, such as Nasty Plot Togekiss, any kind of Clefable, mixed Aegislash, and other offensive threats, such as Magnezone, Jolteon, CM Latias, and Galvantula. Also, Mold Breaker Stealth Rock is always to fun to mess with those Espeon teams. Just use it with some Wish support or on semi-stall team, where the game is not guaranteed to last more than 50 turns.
Chansey/Tran/Skarm generally needs at least two, if not all three other pokemon to hold a fighting resist. Conckledurr will run that core through no matter what, but it's up to a poison type generally to stop it (since conk will go fight/dark attacks to really mess you up).
In fact, that's why skarm/chansey are afterthoughts to my stall team, and the main core is based around two fight resists with heatran.
In fact, that's why skarm/chansey are afterthoughts to my stall team, and the main core is based around two fight resists with heatran.
Use 40 Def EVs on Moltres, to survive even a +2 Adamant Close Combat from Mega Lucario. In other news, SubRoost SpD Moltres is great with the right support, but i often need to have two forms of anti-sr weapons, such as having both Manidbuzz and Rapid Spin Excadrill, just in case one of those two mons can't immediately deal with the SR setter on the opposing team.
Something else i have observed when playng with and against stall teams is that a Pokemon to tank hits from the common Knock Off users is almost a must, as stall mons really need their Lefties and losing them cripples them badly. Mega Venusaur is probably the best one, as it has great mixed defenses, fares well against most Knock Off users (Gliscor, Mandibuzz, Landorus-T, Tangrowth, Conkeldurr, Mega Absol, Crawdaunt), and walls a ton of threats, but Mega Scizor is another great one that has a ton of utility and can also handle a ton of Pokemon. Also, having a Knock Off user of my own helps a lot in stalling now that Spikes are not as effective as they once were. Have you guys had difficult with your stall teams against Knock Off users?
A stall team without something like defensive Mega Venu is going to get rolled by a Bisharp, even then +4 Iron head will kill venu. Id recommend Mega Scizor with superpower for a stall team that doesn't want to lose to Bisharp.
Yes, knocking off leftovers can really hurt stall. Specially for pokemon without recovery like heatran. And if for some reason they manage to get chanseys eviolite is very very bad.
Oh man, Knock Off is can be a pain in the rear to deal with. Much of the reason I run Mega Venusaur is to thwart Knock Off mons (not that M-Venu is bad, but that's just a nice perk it has). It's actually been really annoying having to learn a Tangrowth's moveset before bringing in Heatran solely because Heatran without lefties really shortens its lifespan.
Back in Gen V, I actually ran Shed Shell on both Heatran and Skarmory because every HO team and its mom ran either Magnezone or Dugtrio to deal with Skarmory/Forretress/Heatran/<insert stall mon here>, and it was so annoying not having the Leftovers recovery. It was so hard for Blissey to keep up with the wishpassing sometimes. Thank goodness Genesect got out of the picture, because having to wishpass with Genesect around was basically a losing battle.
Now that Genesect's back, I can't really afford to lose out on Heatran's leftovers, so Knock Off has been an annoyance. I wouldn't say it's anything more than just an annoyance, because it's quite easy to play around with a Mega Evo or even just having Skarmory tank it since it has Roost, but it really does suck sometimes when a battle gets prolonged just because you don't want to lose lefties on an important Pokemon.
On a brighter note, though, I've noticed that Knock Off sometimes puts your opponent in "omg I need to stay in and knock the item off of my incoming counter" syndrome. That can actually be pretty nicely played around, such as being able to switch in a Skarmory and get a free turn to Defog or set up more hazards, or even better, switch in M-Venusaur and be almost guaranteed to get Leech Seed on something.
Finally, as amazing as Knock Off seems... I don't really like it myself on a Stall team. Yeah, it's got a neat effect that can sometimes make a battle easier to win, but I really think it can often be a waste of a turn. The only Pokemon I really enjoy using it is on is Heatran and Rotom-W, because they become so much easier to beat without Leftovers/Chesto Berry, but with a lot of other Pokemon I'd prefer they keep their items. I love it when my opponents carry LO/Choice items because it makes them that much easier to play around and force residual damage on. The only playstyle where having Knock Off comes in handy against is Stall, and Stall v. Stall happens rarely enough that I don't think it's worth putting on any of my Pokemon. All of the viable users, apart from perhaps Tangrowth, I feel have better options than Knock Off, seeing as most of them already have 4MSS to begin with.
252 HP / 40 Def / 216 SpD with a Calm nature is the best spread for it. Moltres's typing is much better suited for taking on special attackers, such as Genesect, Mega Charizard Y, Togekiss, and Aegislash. Besides, no Scizor should stay in against Moltres anyway.
Gliscor really isn't a good stall pokemon, though... On true stall teams, I've seen gliscor once and it wasn't even all that helpful. It just really can't switch into anything special and simply relies on substall to do any stall work. Maybe with defog it gains some merit, but defog can't run with poison heal.
If you are running Gliscor without Earthquake, you should reexamine what the heck you are actually trying to accomplish with it in the first place. lol
Anyway, I have been playing regular OU, but I noticed a lot of this discussion is for Pokebank OU, should I stop playing regular and get ready for the upcoming metagame?
Anyway, I have been playing regular OU, but I noticed a lot of this discussion is for Pokebank OU, should I stop playing regular and get ready for the upcoming metagame?
This is really up to you. I never started playing OU beta because as limiting as the metagame for Pokebank sometimes feels, Beta felt like the teams were just awful, not having much possible to choose from. Bank also should give an accurate representation of the meta so you can get a good start when the actual ladders open. Just the exposure can make sure you aren't behind in the team building process and such.
Gliscor is a great Pokemon for semi-stall, but it's simply not defensive enough for full stall. Despite the fighting resist, it's heavily outclassed by Hippowdon, who not only also tanks most fighting-type attacks like a boss but also can stand to take an Ice-type attack or two or three or even four, and is far bulkier overall. Way too many things run Ice Punch or even HP Ice for Gliscor to be an effective and reliable physical wall on a full stall team. Plus, having a rock resist is quite crucial in a metagame where Rock-type moves belong to some of the most powerful users.
Despite Gliscor having access to Taunt and Knock Off, I don't feel those moves do enough in the long run as things like phazing and hazard setting, two things that again Hippowdon does better than Gliscor. Since Stall is all about the outcome in the long run, Gliscor's short-run talents easily go to waste when battles often involve intensive switching and healing. Finally, although Toxic stalling is oftentimes viable and effective, Gliscor's method, which focuses far more on speed than durability, simply doesn't mesh as well with the overall dynamic of a stall team, which favors bulkiness by far.
Finally, as a Defog user, Gliscor faces competition from Skarmory and Mandibuzz, two extremely versatile users that are great for Stall. Although giving Gliscor Defog relieves pressure from its fellow Flying-types, this requires actually using Gliscor on your team—and only including it for Defog simply won't cut it when you only have six teamslots.
So, tl;dr: Gliscor is one of the best at what can accomplish. Unfortunately, it simply isn't made for Stall play.
Despite Gliscor having access to Taunt and Knock Off, I don't feel those moves do enough in the long run as things like phazing and hazard setting, two things that again Hippowdon does better than Gliscor. Since Stall is all about the outcome in the long run, Gliscor's short-run talents easily go to waste when battles often involve intensive switching and healing. Finally, although Toxic stalling is oftentimes viable and effective, Gliscor's method, which focuses far more on speed than durability, simply doesn't mesh as well with the overall dynamic of a stall team, which favors bulkiness by far.
Finally, as a Defog user, Gliscor faces competition from Skarmory and Mandibuzz, two extremely versatile users that are great for Stall. Although giving Gliscor Defog relieves pressure from its fellow Flying-types, this requires actually using Gliscor on your team—and only including it for Defog simply won't cut it when you only have six teamslots.
So, tl;dr: Gliscor is one of the best at what can accomplish. Unfortunately, it simply isn't made for Stall play.
Admittedly I haven't tried full stall myself, and nobody is denying the raw bulk of Hippo, but I have a hard time seeing how a poke with only two weaknesses (one being 4x admittedly), two immunities, status immunity, passive and immediate health regeneration and a Df stat of 125 to be considered "not bulky". Not to mention being kind of fast for a wall Roosting gives you your Rock resistance and brings Ice down to x2, then of course there's Sub+Protect.
But hey, I'm not the Stall guy. I'm semi-stall and bulky offense primarily.
But hey, I'm not the Stall guy. I'm semi-stall and bulky offense primarily.
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