That and Trevenant/Gourgeist are getting a lot of attention, due to their novelty and uses. Trevenant seems like a good candidate for OU because of how much it can check physical threats arguably better than either of the other ghosts right now, due to its wonderful abilities that allow it so. Then again the stats also reflect when MGengar was still running around so that should also have contributed to it being lower, being set up fodder and all.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Other 6th Gen Pokemon UU Candidate Speculation Thread
- Thread starter Ashfield
- Start date
- Status
That and Trevenant/Gourgeist are getting a lot of attention, due to their novelty and uses. Trevenant seems like a good candidate for OU because of how much it can check physical threats arguably better than either of the other ghosts right now, due to its wonderful abilities that allow it so. Then again the stats also reflect when MGengar was still running around so that should also have contributed to it being lower, being set up fodder and all.
I see Jellicent falling further. He had a niche when Kanga was around because he completely walled fire punch variants, but with Kanga gone, rain gone, and Trevenant being a better spinblocker due to resisting Excadrill's EQ, I see Jelli dropping further.
I abused the hell out of this fact and ran a sub/CM Keldeo up to 2200 on the ladder. Not having to fear Jelli was very nice.
Suicune and Milotic are way better at what they do than Vaporeon and Jellicent. The main reasons Vaporeon and Jellicent were OU last gen was because they either abused or countered rain (Vaporeon with hydration, Jellicent by being immune to water). With rain no longer being what it was, Suicune and Milotic are better waters and Suicune could potentially break OU.
I abused the hell out of this fact and ran a sub/CM Keldeo up to 2200 on the ladder. Not having to fear Jelli was very nice.
Suicune and Milotic are way better at what they do than Vaporeon and Jellicent. The main reasons Vaporeon and Jellicent were OU last gen was because they either abused or countered rain (Vaporeon with hydration, Jellicent by being immune to water). With rain no longer being what it was, Suicune and Milotic are better waters and Suicune could potentially break OU.
Last edited by a moderator:
Vaporeon was never good, it was just something people used because jellicent wasn't discovered yet to be a goood as shit wall and hydration was a nice DW gimmick, Jellicent is clearly the best, it gets the recover trait over Vaps and Cune but it also gets a secondary typing over every one of them, with suicune being 2nd because CMcrocune and resttalk cune are boss and them defenses, miltoic 3rd because it's better than trashy ass vaporeon which has no uniqueness to it at all nowadays
but due to arm cannons mega blastoise, and the public being stupid, I can forsee vaps going into OU because lol eeveelution who cares if it's sucks ass right? jellicent into OU because it is legitimatly the best out of the 4 and the rest dropping heck vaps might not even make OU
You can't compare Cune's walling ability to Jellicent's walling ability. You use Cune as a sweeper and emergency wall. There's really no replacement for CM Cune, nothing else can tank hits and boost like him at the same time except maybe Arceus.
Jelli was a nice wall and spinblocker, no doubt, but Trevenant is just better in that role right now. That's why I say Cune is better at what he does than Jelli.
Vaporeon has Wish and a Water immunity over Milotic; I really don't see how it could be considered worse, especially since they have such similar stats.
Last edited:
Trevenant has terrible defenses, the only reason it got salvaged out of the crap pile of gimmickmons was it's abilities and lucky typing for it's meta, nothing more nothing less I hardly doubt jelli and trevenant would compete, gorgeist is the pringles's true competition with that solid but not trevenant level atk, 122 base defense and just walling everything in a simply lovely way, also lol you just contradicted yourself "You can't compare Cune's walling ability to Jellicent's walling ability" "That's why I say Cune is better at what he does than Jelli", yeah they do do different things (is that the right wording?) but jellicents recovery and clutch ghost typing make him a more reliable answer to much more things, and really, thats what laddering is all about, reliabillity, and you know what laddering means, usage, which means tiering placement, which means ladder needs affect tiering placement, which means jelli would make it onto OU over cune in a beat, not because one's better, but because one reaches stronger with the ladder trends
I said that because Cune isn't a wall (at least, his best set isn't used as a wall), while Jelli is primarily used as a wall/spinblocker. And Trevenant's stats are pretty irrelevant. His ability and typing more than make up for it. Excadrill is the #1 spinner in this meta, and a spinblocker that resists his EQ is much better than one who will be 2HKO'd by it.
The irony in this is that not only does Jellicent wall Suicune, but it CroCune cannot possibly damage Jellicent even at +6. Jelli just has far too much utility to justify using defensive Suicune or Milotic over it. Vaporeon at least has Wish as a reason to be used over Jellicent.
I'm not 100% sold on Jellicent being a good fit for UU, far from it really. Although it has excellent typing in resisting/immune to fire and fighting types, I feel it would still struggle in UU compared to other bulky waters for a few reasons
1. Poor physical defense: This above all else hurts jellicent's ability to wall in UU, as the types it should otherwise be walling no problem can hit it hard on its weaker base stat. It's part of the reason the best of UU's bulky waters were physically defensive last gen, because they needed to be tanking things like flare blitz/V-create predominantly, as opposed to OU where they would need to tank rain boosted special water moves.
2. Issues with tanking coverage moves: Again with point 1 in mind and the knock-off buff, both fire and fighting types really cause issue for jellicent with coverage moves, notably
-Victini: Bolt strike
-Chandelure: STAB Shadow ball
-Mienshao: Knock off (which should become a notable move, especially on LO sets or just in general because of cofagrigus)
-Heracross: Regular form can abuse guts, while mega form uses bullet seed.
-Scrafty: STAB crunch
-Virizion: STAB Leaf Blade
-Machamp: Knock off
There are probably even more cases, but I can't quite think of them at the moment.
3. Spin-Blocking in general: If there's one notable thing about UU, its that despite having some of the worst rapid spinners in the game (almost if not worse than NU even!) compared to the hazard setters inhabiting the tier, people are desperate and crazy enough to use these god-awful pokemon with very specialized niche move-sets to get their rapid spin off due to the prevalence of hazards and how easy it is to set them. With the Gen 6 defog buff, people can stop using those garbage mons (looking at you hitmontop and claydol) and use more quality pokemon like crobat to get rid of hazards, thus bypassing jellicent and its spin-blocking status. Even then, jellicent NEEDS status healing pokemon because those garbage rapid spinners are famous for their toxic usage, or in the case of blastoise now, can just mega-evolve and blast you with dark pulse.
4. Water absorb: In theory, this should make jellicent even better, but I'm not sold simply because the only thing you really deal with is Crocune and RD/Specs kingdra (although to be fair those are good niches to hold). Blastoise now has dark-pulse and a mega-form, slowbro has coverage aplenty or trick to mess you about. Qwilfish taunts you before you taunt it and sets up hazards in your face. Milotic (if it doesn't drop further) phazes you out with dragon tail so you need to be hazard free to avoid consequence there. Kingdra is walled if specs or RD, but DD will set up in your face and use sub/lum/chestorest to eventually smash you with outrage. Jellicent just doesn't put its ability to good enough use in UU sadly.
1. Poor physical defense: This above all else hurts jellicent's ability to wall in UU, as the types it should otherwise be walling no problem can hit it hard on its weaker base stat. It's part of the reason the best of UU's bulky waters were physically defensive last gen, because they needed to be tanking things like flare blitz/V-create predominantly, as opposed to OU where they would need to tank rain boosted special water moves.
2. Issues with tanking coverage moves: Again with point 1 in mind and the knock-off buff, both fire and fighting types really cause issue for jellicent with coverage moves, notably
-Victini: Bolt strike
-Chandelure: STAB Shadow ball
-Mienshao: Knock off (which should become a notable move, especially on LO sets or just in general because of cofagrigus)
-Heracross: Regular form can abuse guts, while mega form uses bullet seed.
-Scrafty: STAB crunch
-Virizion: STAB Leaf Blade
-Machamp: Knock off
There are probably even more cases, but I can't quite think of them at the moment.
3. Spin-Blocking in general: If there's one notable thing about UU, its that despite having some of the worst rapid spinners in the game (almost if not worse than NU even!) compared to the hazard setters inhabiting the tier, people are desperate and crazy enough to use these god-awful pokemon with very specialized niche move-sets to get their rapid spin off due to the prevalence of hazards and how easy it is to set them. With the Gen 6 defog buff, people can stop using those garbage mons (looking at you hitmontop and claydol) and use more quality pokemon like crobat to get rid of hazards, thus bypassing jellicent and its spin-blocking status. Even then, jellicent NEEDS status healing pokemon because those garbage rapid spinners are famous for their toxic usage, or in the case of blastoise now, can just mega-evolve and blast you with dark pulse.
4. Water absorb: In theory, this should make jellicent even better, but I'm not sold simply because the only thing you really deal with is Crocune and RD/Specs kingdra (although to be fair those are good niches to hold). Blastoise now has dark-pulse and a mega-form, slowbro has coverage aplenty or trick to mess you about. Qwilfish taunts you before you taunt it and sets up hazards in your face. Milotic (if it doesn't drop further) phazes you out with dragon tail so you need to be hazard free to avoid consequence there. Kingdra is walled if specs or RD, but DD will set up in your face and use sub/lum/chestorest to eventually smash you with outrage. Jellicent just doesn't put its ability to good enough use in UU sadly.
this is only looking at the negetive aspects of jellicent as well as assuming the whole old cast of last gen UU returns, this was a well constructed post, with poor subject matter
Sigh...
I'll admit to making the mistake of all of UU's old mons returning (machamp probably will not, and I have my doubts on scrafty/virizion), but you may want to try again with your poor and unhelpful comment.
Firstly, the positives have already been discussed. I'm not interested in rehashing those, nor will I when there are several major flaws to jellicent. I also did acknowledge it to be an excellent check to crocune as already discussed (though things can get interesting with PP usage if crocune is the last pokemon standing), as well as RD and specs kingdra even if draco meteor will sting, or if kingdra goes to OU due to drizzle-swim currently being legal.
Secondly, the negatives are important, because you can't just say something will be good without looking at what makes a pokemon a poor performer. I could've added a few more possibly, at least including the fact jellicent unfortunately gives both roserade and shaymin a free-switch in, which is an incredibly bad thing to allow to happen with the buffs roserade received. There are many negatives that are otherwise being overlooked, and its important to list them in detail because you need to know what you're aiming to get out of a pokemon AND what you have to do to mitigate its disadvantages before you stick it on a team, even if this eventuality never comes up.
Thirdly, do you understand what it means to debate a point? This is the reason you're comment has annoyed me mostly, because you seem to have implied that criticism is not welcome, when the case should be that you should make a point that my criticisms are unfounded (which you have barely done) and explain WHY THIS IS THE CASE (Which you have not done whatsoever).
So if you don't like my critique of jellicent in UU, list why my points may be wrong rather than drop such a lazy, poor statement like what I've quoted thanks.
critique and debate are the whole point of this thread, I'm not negating it, instead I'm applauding you on your effort to make such a well constructed comment with the thousands of not so good comments on smogon, 2nd you say critique is good, but then you mock my critique, yes I know jellicents negetives are key, but you didn't even touch on the fact that it gets recover, has awesome Sdef and that it's typing while it may have flaws, gives it many unique switchin oppertunities, and giving rosy odonald and sonic 2.0 a free switchin is nothing new, it's something all bulky waters have to feel bad about, without bulky grasses, how could we check bulky waters? every UU group of pokemon has another group that checks it hard, take for example electric spam vs rhyperior etc
That was a really good post by Silenced, he made some great points, and why shouldn't we assume (for now at least) that the old mons will be returning? I'm not sure exactly how the lower tiers are established, but this is UU after all and we need to have a basis from somewhere. That being said, Jellicent has a great typing and all, but ultimately falls to status, which isn't desirable in a bulky water. Suicune and Blastoise often run Rest, Slowbro doesn't care too much about status due to Regenerator, Milotic has Marvel Scale, and if Vaporeon falls along with Politoed, it will have some fun with hydration. Knock Off's buff and the fact that all the fire types in UU have a way of getting around Jellicent doesn't help either.
Fair enough, my annoyance was not needed then.
As to the recovery and sp. def, jellicent suffers from the same short comings that milotic does. In other words, it has to spend more turns than one would like spamming recover, rather than doing something like achieving scald hax or racking up phazing damage with dragon tail (the lack of phazing is also nothing in jellicent's favour). It doesn't really threaten when it gets into play unless the opposing team has nothing which can risk scaldhax, nor does it generate momentum (lacking u-turn, volt-switch or baton pass), nor does it threaten to boost offensively or hit hard (maybe TR? that might be pushing it)
As for the free switch-ins to grass types however, this is not quite correct. Roserade has to take some care against certain water pokemon when switching in, because coverage moves hitting it on its weaker defense stat can OHKO. Slowbro can use psyshock on the switch to KO if offensive, while the same can be said for a few others (offensive swampert with ice punch). Force roserade to attack only (qwilfish taunting on the switch or kingdra boosting) or being phazed back out (swampert, milotic). Shaymin fares a lot better, but really needs to watch for specs boosted fire blast from slowbro, and the same with phazing. Jellicent I give you can taunt, but lacks the secondary typing to stop roserade from demolishing it, and does absolutely nothing to stop shaymin from coming in.
Rain is falling into UU, many pros and experts are speculating that the future UU will be 60% BW2 OU + 32% BW2 UU + 7% BW2 RU + 1% BW2 NU.
UU is very unstable, even OU is. Weathers falling into UU will only rejuvenate the niche of Jellicent in UU, who knows? Maybe Keldeo will be so dominant, that Jellicent will come back to OU, or Keldeo would be banned. It's hard to see an OU with Keldeo and without Jellicent, then again Talonflame does wreck it. Again, the meta-game hasn't rested, and is still very unstable, especially with other event pokemons still not coming out yet (If leaks are true). So don't count on that too much. Gen V OU was all about HO, but now it s about Bulky Offensive, UU is more likely to be HO centralized and the most used strategy in UU.
V. Create. In. Sun. Will. Wreck.
UU is very unstable, even OU is. Weathers falling into UU will only rejuvenate the niche of Jellicent in UU, who knows? Maybe Keldeo will be so dominant, that Jellicent will come back to OU, or Keldeo would be banned. It's hard to see an OU with Keldeo and without Jellicent, then again Talonflame does wreck it. Again, the meta-game hasn't rested, and is still very unstable, especially with other event pokemons still not coming out yet (If leaks are true). So don't count on that too much. Gen V OU was all about HO, but now it s about Bulky Offensive, UU is more likely to be HO centralized and the most used strategy in UU.
V. Create. In. Sun. Will. Wreck.
Last edited:
I would like to meet some of these "pros and experts"...Despite the sinking usage of weather setters, I wouldn't bank so heavily on the metagame being heavily similar to the one last gen when the mechanics that defined it aren't even the same. Like sun for instance. Ninetales and Vulpix (lol) are legit your only Sun setters in UU, given Charizard hangs high above the threshold. Now if the metagame is going to be as HO centralized as you speculate (I honestly want to disagree here but I'm not gonna undermine your point because a number of powerhouses are going to be touching UU for sure), how will Ninetales be able to support its team long enough to allow Victini and your Sun sweepers...to sweep? Add the weather nerf on top of opposing rain and the occasional dude being "that guy" and using Hippopotas, and you're going to find yourself wanting to either go Weatherless or having multiple setters on any dedicated weather team just to keep the upper hand. I honestly feel like UU is just going to be straight-up more Offense in general, neither Bulky nor Hyper for the most part as it actually has been since last generation. But that's just my thought on it
How a poke does 1v1 against another poke does not determine its viability. Any standard Kyogre can't beat Shedinja or Gastrodon. That doesn't make him a worse pokemon. If you're playing with Suicune, it's likely in a bulky offense or even more likely in a stall team. All you need to do is hit Jellicent (or any water absorb poke) with toxic at some point in the match and Suicune can set up freely on Jelli and sweep. Your other option is, of course, to kill Jellicent before you attempt a Suicune sweep.
Or maybe because it makes a good wish passer? The four Pokemon you were comparing all do different things, and Vaporeon is the only one in there with Wish and Heal Bell. You can't say "Vaporeon is outclassed by other bulky water types" when it has that.
Vaporeon also has more bulk than Jellicent, and while Jellicent has the ghost typing that gives it more resistances, it also means a weakness to Dark and Ghost which are great offensive types now.
Your point exactly proves what I stated, if weathers fall (Which is most likely the case) Not including Mega CharY (I agree with you, that guy is too good for UU) we will have a UU that is very similar to OU, weather abusers will start to fall, the Rocks (Damp, Heat, Icy, Smooth) will be the items mostly used on the weather starters, players will have to save their weather until later, and if the opponent had a weather starter, you use your 5 other pokemons to kill him first so you can put your starter back, this will be in UU, ring a bell? Some players will go with sun, some will go with rain, some will go with sand, and some will go weatherless. But if your opponent doesn't have a weather starter: It's ten times easier to sweep. I would like to agree with your statement "UU is just going to be straight-up more Offense in general, neither Bulky nor Hyper for the most part as it actually has been since last generation. But that's just my thought on it" but straight-up offensive means Hazards + Defoggers + Rapid Spinners + HO + Stall + Walls, there's a very good chance of that happening, Umbreon is gonna stay UU, and Vaporeon will meet him there, Jolteon will just wreck everything it sees, combined with Darm, Victini, Kingdra (Old threats), walls WILL get destroyed, with most of the dragons falling, the UU meta-game is forced to go on Stall/Wall, but what determines if my theory or your theory is true, is that these powerhouses (Darm, Victini, Haxorus, Salemence, Hydriegon, Noivern, etc.) will not have a problem with walls, if they did have a problem with the UU walls, then your theory is right, if not, my theory would be right.
UU-wise, since most of the speed tiers are already beaten by the point you reach raikou's speed tier, jolteon is inferior to an electric we already had, raikou
Weather will be on a timer, so I think you'll need multiple weather setters. I think Rain hyper offensive is gonna have Politoed together with Tornadus setting weather manually with Kingdra as the main rain abuser. I think weather will look more like the manual weather rain offensive that we sometimes saw last gen in UU, than the Politoed weather wars that we saw in OU. ALSO keep in mind Politoed won't have leftovers so it'll be a bit easier to wear down. If it DOES have leftovers, the Kingdra/Ludicolo/Kabutops/whoever sweeps will be cut a lot shorter
It'll be similar to last gen OU in the sense that we'll see weather and we'll see dragon spam, but weather is gonna work differently. Depending on how things play out, it might even be easier. If weather isn't dominant, it could be really easy to keep your own weather up. I played a bit of rain this gen, and it was easy to keep rain up on my side of the field if the opponent wasn't using a sun starter (Char Y is somewhat common, but most matches I was able to keep rain up).
It'll be similar to last gen OU in the sense that we'll see weather and we'll see dragon spam, but weather is gonna work differently. Depending on how things play out, it might even be easier. If weather isn't dominant, it could be really easy to keep your own weather up. I played a bit of rain this gen, and it was easy to keep rain up on my side of the field if the opponent wasn't using a sun starter (Char Y is somewhat common, but most matches I was able to keep rain up).
I don't know about some of what Professional2341 said is going to be falling into UU, but I'm sure that UU's walls will be able to handle what's thrown at them, especially when it looks like Vaporeon and Dragalge and maybe even Trevenant are going to join.
And weather being on a timer definitely affects weather sweepers. I've fought a few weather teams, and while they are powerful, the fact that there's only 6 turns to sweep prevents weather from being overpowered. Weatherless offense has a huge bonus in that there isn't a timer on their sweep.
Furthermore, I don't think rain would necessarily would be the superior weather. Most of the fire types in UU have either Huge offensive stats (Darmanitan, Chamdelure), or a great move/movepool (Victini, Arcanine). Sun is able to use grass types, and even had its own mega, Mega-Houndoom. I don't think Ninetales will be banned because of several factors, namely bulky waters, the fact that rain setters have their own STAB boosted by the weather, and Stealth Rock. Many fire types are also frail.
And Jolteon, unlike Raikou, lacks Calm Mind and Aura Sphere and therefore a way to get past Snorlax, and is outclassed defensively by Zapdos.
And weather being on a timer definitely affects weather sweepers. I've fought a few weather teams, and while they are powerful, the fact that there's only 6 turns to sweep prevents weather from being overpowered. Weatherless offense has a huge bonus in that there isn't a timer on their sweep.
Furthermore, I don't think rain would necessarily would be the superior weather. Most of the fire types in UU have either Huge offensive stats (Darmanitan, Chamdelure), or a great move/movepool (Victini, Arcanine). Sun is able to use grass types, and even had its own mega, Mega-Houndoom. I don't think Ninetales will be banned because of several factors, namely bulky waters, the fact that rain setters have their own STAB boosted by the weather, and Stealth Rock. Many fire types are also frail.
And Jolteon, unlike Raikou, lacks Calm Mind and Aura Sphere and therefore a way to get past Snorlax, and is outclassed defensively by Zapdos.
Just wondering, what atm makes you think trevenant is going to join uu? I know ou is not settled yet so it might drop once people are done trying out new pokes, but as of the last usage stats its very solidly in ou.
well its not like I wanted to single you out or anything. Its just you are not the first person I have seen saying its going to fall into uu so I was wondering where people were getting this idea from.
- Status