A Mewtwo-X with Bolt Strike can easily be countered with an Imposter, Play Rough is more common because it is much better against Imposter. Most will not use both at once fearing that countering their own M2X will be difficult, this is why Bolt Strike is often paired with Crunch, and if M2X is using Crunch, PH Giratina can easily tank its attacks and Imposter can easily defeat it.
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Ladder Balanced Hackmons
- Thread starter verbatim
- Start date
Keep SR off the field and use a Lightningrod Ho-oH.
I've been seeing a lot of Kyu-B's with Bolt Strike lately. Though Kyu-B is going to be making Yveltal cry anyway.
What about Lugia? Sure, you lose the bit of offense from Low Kick and Oblivion Wing, but Lugia doesn't fear Close Combat, Play Rough, or a lot of other unboosted attacks. Protean Bolt Strike is about the only thing that will scare Lugia if Xtwo isn't boosting. It also has the bulk to easily avoid a 2HKO from Kyu-B's Fake Out/E Speed with Fur Coat after SR damage, something that Yveltal can't claim. And that's without giving Lugia Bold or a similar nature.
If it's the Dark-typing that you're looking for, I'll mention Umbreon again. The previous PH set I mentioned lacks an offensive presence, but it does cripple Xtwo and the like. I imagine you could also use Fur Coat with the previous set to a similar effect since Xtwo's Adamant Close Combat only does about 50%, giving time for Umbreon to safely burn it. Or you could use Cotton Guard, which is probably a bit gimmicky, but would safely let Umbreon smack Xtwo around with Foul Play instead of having to burn it or lower its attack with King's Shield. You could even pair that set with Swagger fairly safely to let Umbreon net OHKOs after a single layer of hazards on the likes of Xtwo and Kyu-B.
What about Lugia? Sure, you lose the bit of offense from Low Kick and Oblivion Wing, but Lugia doesn't fear Close Combat, Play Rough, or a lot of other unboosted attacks. Protean Bolt Strike is about the only thing that will scare Lugia if Xtwo isn't boosting. It also has the bulk to easily avoid a 2HKO from Kyu-B's Fake Out/E Speed with Fur Coat after SR damage, something that Yveltal can't claim. And that's without giving Lugia Bold or a similar nature.
If it's the Dark-typing that you're looking for, I'll mention Umbreon again. The previous PH set I mentioned lacks an offensive presence, but it does cripple Xtwo and the like. I imagine you could also use Fur Coat with the previous set to a similar effect since Xtwo's Adamant Close Combat only does about 50%, giving time for Umbreon to safely burn it. Or you could use Cotton Guard, which is probably a bit gimmicky, but would safely let Umbreon smack Xtwo around with Foul Play instead of having to burn it or lower its attack with King's Shield. You could even pair that set with Swagger fairly safely to let Umbreon net OHKOs after a single layer of hazards on the likes of Xtwo and Kyu-B.
Lugia also doesn't particularly like repeated Crunches, but that's mostly an afterthought compared to Bolt Strike. It's also vulnerable to Ghost moves, not that you should be using them on a Physical attacker. On the other hand, you have that incredible Special bulk too. Plus, you could do what I did for a while and be an absolute dick by spamming Parafusion. Lugia's also fast enough and bulky enough to tank a low-health Poison Heal Giga's Extremespeed and put it down, despite the distinct lack of offense. Actually, outrunning the 100 speed tier gives a fair few bonus checks to things that can be an utter pain if you have a lack of things to outrun them, such as Gigas, Slaking, Palkia or the base 90 crowd/
Umbreon... Meh. I've never really liked Umbreon. In my experience it tends to die fast without doing much. It's got good defenses to tank the hits, but not as much HP to soak the damage, and has to rely on Foul Play. Granted, it outright murders both MM2 variants (150 attack on Y anyone?) but if you're relying on Burning or Cotton Guarding to buffer your defense up... Plus, the inevitable Mold Breaker varient will still plow right through you like you're not even there.
Umbreon... Meh. I've never really liked Umbreon. In my experience it tends to die fast without doing much. It's got good defenses to tank the hits, but not as much HP to soak the damage, and has to rely on Foul Play. Granted, it outright murders both MM2 variants (150 attack on Y anyone?) but if you're relying on Burning or Cotton Guarding to buffer your defense up... Plus, the inevitable Mold Breaker varient will still plow right through you like you're not even there.
Mind, Umbreon really only needs Fur Coat + Cotton Guard/King's Shield/a burn to comfortably take hits from unboosted Xtwo (and some boosted attackers, like LO Kyu-B). Considering that Xtwo's Close Combat is about the nastiest physical move that can possibly be thrown at Umbreon and it only takes about 50% from that (unboosted) without anything in play to further reduce physical damage, it's really not scared of the other physical attackers in the tier. And the burns are really more to cripple physical attackers rather than so Umbreon can sit there and continue walling, though it can if it wishes after a burn.
While it doesn't fit on every team, Umbreon's pretty darn good if you leverage it right. Wish I had saved the replay where the PH variant I posted earlier crippled Kyu-B, Xtwo, and Xern without ever switching out. Although if you want to see it pulling its weight, I have a Gen V replay where an Unaware one tears apart an opposing team that's too reliant on set-up sweepers and Contrary.
While it doesn't fit on every team, Umbreon's pretty darn good if you leverage it right. Wish I had saved the replay where the PH variant I posted earlier crippled Kyu-B, Xtwo, and Xern without ever switching out. Although if you want to see it pulling its weight, I have a Gen V replay where an Unaware one tears apart an opposing team that's too reliant on set-up sweepers and Contrary.
Here's a set I made that gained a lot of popularity in the ladder (yes this set has been mentioned a few times but I thought i'd post it here)
Kyogre @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Sassy Nature
- Nuzzle
- Scald
- Volt Switch
- Dragon Tail
Regenerator + Assault Vest is one of the best things that happened this gen, and imo, Kyogre is the best user. Nuzzle + a fast Volt Switch is very useful against sweepers, Scald is strong and has a good burn chance, Volt Switch allows you to gain momentum very easily throughout the match and Dragon Tail allows you to phaze out a sweeper going out of control. This set is so bulky in the special side that it can take extremely powerful attacks such as:
252 SpA Pixilate Xerneas Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Kyogre: 114-135 (28.2 - 33.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Palkia Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Kyogre: 135-159 (33.4 - 39.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Aerilate Mega Charizard Y Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Kyogre: 132-156 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO
Because of Regenerator, this set is extremely hard to take down and is a valuable asset in a PP stall war thanks to its ability to repeatedly switch and heal everything back without using PP.
Kyogre @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Sassy Nature
- Nuzzle
- Scald
- Volt Switch
- Dragon Tail
Regenerator + Assault Vest is one of the best things that happened this gen, and imo, Kyogre is the best user. Nuzzle + a fast Volt Switch is very useful against sweepers, Scald is strong and has a good burn chance, Volt Switch allows you to gain momentum very easily throughout the match and Dragon Tail allows you to phaze out a sweeper going out of control. This set is so bulky in the special side that it can take extremely powerful attacks such as:
252 SpA Pixilate Xerneas Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Kyogre: 114-135 (28.2 - 33.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Palkia Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Kyogre: 135-159 (33.4 - 39.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Aerilate Mega Charizard Y Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Kyogre: 132-156 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO
Because of Regenerator, this set is extremely hard to take down and is a valuable asset in a PP stall war thanks to its ability to repeatedly switch and heal everything back without using PP.
Oh yeah, that match was fun. 200 turns and no KOes before I had to leave. The Ogre is a beast. Actually, maybe it would be a good counterpoint to the Fur Coat sets? Of course, I was running Fire Spin over Dragon Tail to alleviate some Shedinja issues (Why Fire Spin and not Infestation? I have no idea, seemed like a good idea at the time)
In addition:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Kyogre: 332-392 (82.17 - 97.02%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
When you live the strongest SE Special move you're likely to come across in any reasonable game, you know you're doing something right.
In addition:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Kyogre: 332-392 (82.17 - 97.02%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
When you live the strongest SE Special move you're likely to come across in any reasonable game, you know you're doing something right.
While those statistics are staggering, why would you not use Gyarados-Mega? It seems like it could do everything Umbreon can do and more, just by looking at their base stats. They have identical defenses excepting a single missing stat point in Megyarados's defense stat. In addition to this, we have a base 155 Attack along with 16 more speed points. I'm not in any way trying to challenge your suggestion (I have always loved Umbreon), I am merely clarifying your statement.
Bolt Strike.
In more detail, the water sub-typing doesn't appear to be overly helpful in BH. Sure, it let's it take Refrige attacks better, but Kyu-Bs are using Bolt Strike for coverage lately and that'll let it hit Gyra harder than it can hit Umbreon (unless it's packing Close Combat, then neither of them are happy). There's also a lot of Volt Switch Spam going on as well.
Offensively for a physical attacker, Gyra gets... Waterfall and Crab Hammer. Water works much better on the special side with Surf, Scald, Hydro Pump, and Water Spout, of which Gyra only has 70 Sp. A to work with. Plus Water really only covers Charizard, Heatran, Ho-oh, and Shuckle at the moment. Regirock too, but that thing can wall a defensive Gyarados anyway.
So, in the current meta at least, Gyra's water sub-typing is probably more of a liability than a boon, in my opinion. It does have the advantage of being able to pack some non-Foul Play offense, so there's that if you need it. Umbreon, in my opinion, is likely better for a pure-defensive mon unless you're trying to wall Flare Blitz or V-Create, in which case Gyra has the advantage. But both lose to Flash Fire anything in those regards.
In more detail, the water sub-typing doesn't appear to be overly helpful in BH. Sure, it let's it take Refrige attacks better, but Kyu-Bs are using Bolt Strike for coverage lately and that'll let it hit Gyra harder than it can hit Umbreon (unless it's packing Close Combat, then neither of them are happy). There's also a lot of Volt Switch Spam going on as well.
Offensively for a physical attacker, Gyra gets... Waterfall and Crab Hammer. Water works much better on the special side with Surf, Scald, Hydro Pump, and Water Spout, of which Gyra only has 70 Sp. A to work with. Plus Water really only covers Charizard, Heatran, Ho-oh, and Shuckle at the moment. Regirock too, but that thing can wall a defensive Gyarados anyway.
So, in the current meta at least, Gyra's water sub-typing is probably more of a liability than a boon, in my opinion. It does have the advantage of being able to pack some non-Foul Play offense, so there's that if you need it. Umbreon, in my opinion, is likely better for a pure-defensive mon unless you're trying to wall Flare Blitz or V-Create, in which case Gyra has the advantage. But both lose to Flash Fire anything in those regards.
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Actually Gyara has the huge adventage having STAB Knock Off and Sucker Punch coming from that 155 atk, and with Crabhammer's boost is doing a lot of damage to pokemon that could easily switch on Umbreon like Xerneas or Poison Heal Regi, etc... it's more bulky offensr than a pure wall but it can do a pretty great job regardless
I just had an idea.
Deoxys-Attack @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 252 SDef / 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed
- Sacred Fire
- Filler (Anything that is SE against Rock/Water)
Deoxys-Attack @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 252 SDef / 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed
- Sacred Fire
- Filler (Anything that is SE against Rock/Water)
Mind, I never denied Gyarados' offensive potential and I also did mention it's worth considering if it's something you're looking for. But from a purely defensive standpoint running non-attack sets or using only Foul Play for offense, I'd prefer Umbreon and it's mono-Dark typing. Now if Electric attack usage diminished to Gen V BH levels, then it'd be a different story because the Fire-resist is useful. But right now, both Volt Switch and Bolt Strike are fairly common.
But personally, for bulky physical Dark offense, I'd probably go with Mega T-tar. Both it and Gyra are slow enough to be outsped by most of the tier, it's bulkier, it has higher attack, and it has better STAB coverage (Rock hits a lot of the same stuff as water as hard or harder. Plus, even with Xern running about, there's still plenty of dragons). But that's just me. And I'll be the first to say that there are certainly some teams that would benefit more from bulky offense Gyra than bulky offense T-Tar.
Though in terms of pure defensiveness, T-Tar's bulk is seriously compromised by it's 4x Fighting weakness along with the all the Rock-type weaknesses too, so I don't think it works as well in a more purely defensive role as Umbreon or Gyra. For example, Adamant Kyu-B's unboosted Close Combat does around 60% to Fur Coat Mega T-Tar, which is quite a bit more than the 35%ish Umbreon and Gyra take with Fur Coat. And that says nothing of what Xtwo can do to T-Tar.
But personally, for bulky physical Dark offense, I'd probably go with Mega T-tar. Both it and Gyra are slow enough to be outsped by most of the tier, it's bulkier, it has higher attack, and it has better STAB coverage (Rock hits a lot of the same stuff as water as hard or harder. Plus, even with Xern running about, there's still plenty of dragons). But that's just me. And I'll be the first to say that there are certainly some teams that would benefit more from bulky offense Gyra than bulky offense T-Tar.
Though in terms of pure defensiveness, T-Tar's bulk is seriously compromised by it's 4x Fighting weakness along with the all the Rock-type weaknesses too, so I don't think it works as well in a more purely defensive role as Umbreon or Gyra. For example, Adamant Kyu-B's unboosted Close Combat does around 60% to Fur Coat Mega T-Tar, which is quite a bit more than the 35%ish Umbreon and Gyra take with Fur Coat. And that says nothing of what Xtwo can do to T-Tar.
Zidshinsin, while that idea may look good on paper, Deoxys-A really isn't the best thing to pull off a set like that. Aside from having the defenses of wet tissue paper, you have a serious vulnerability to Unaware 'mons. As for the paper defense, Regigigas, Ice Cubes, and Pixerneas varients eat it alive. (Gigas survives Extremespeed 100% of the time, even with SR)
Also, Shedinja (Priority and/or Lum Berry), anything with Prankster Heart Swap you'd prefer to hit with a coverage move, Aegislash/Mega Scizor w/Flash Fire, Giratina, the variety of other things capable od sponging a non-STAB hit and shredding it... It's far, far too easy to bring down now.
Deo-A is outclassed by the MM2 variations, it's sad to say. They might be a bit slower, but they pack a larger punch and don't go down to a stiff breeze (Or don't OHKO themselves with Struggle)
Also, Shedinja (Priority and/or Lum Berry), anything with Prankster Heart Swap you'd prefer to hit with a coverage move, Aegislash/Mega Scizor w/Flash Fire, Giratina, the variety of other things capable od sponging a non-STAB hit and shredding it... It's far, far too easy to bring down now.
Deo-A is outclassed by the MM2 variations, it's sad to say. They might be a bit slower, but they pack a larger punch and don't go down to a stiff breeze (Or don't OHKO themselves with Struggle)
Another example of an Imposter resistant set:
Kyurem-Black @ Icicle Plate/Leftovers
Trait: Refridgerate
Nature: Adamant
Happiness: 1
EVs: Standard
-Shift Gear
-Frustration
-Bolt Strike
-Infestation/Hail/Kings Shield/Spiky Shield/Roost
A set that I have been trying out, and it has done very well. Its not completely Imposter immune though, Chans hits pretty hard with a boosted Bolt Strike, but you 2HKO them at +1, while they cannot even 3HKO (at +1, be careful about getting greedy with boosts against Chans, +2 is generally all you need), unless it is an unhappy Chans. Icicle Plate is the better item imo, allowing you to OHKO MM2X at +1, and Mega Tyranitar at +2. The last moveslot is up to preference, each has its own advantages. I like Hail because it prevents non-SG Shed from simply switching in, Baton Passing out, and repeating like it can if you run Spiky Shield. However, Spiky/Kings Shield prevent revenge killers from revenging you as easily. Infestation can also be used for Shed, but requires prediction as it must be used on the turn Shed switches in, which can lead to situations where you mispredict and have to take a hit, which this set hates cause of no recovery. If you are confident in your ability to keep hazards up though, run Roost. U-Turning/Baton Passing/Volt Switching is the best way to get this set in, especially if you catch one of the numerous things Fake Out + ExtremeSpeed Cube nornally scares out on the switch.
Good teamates for this set include Mons to lure and KO Fur Coat mons, as this set hates those if they are not weak to its attacks. While unlikely against newer players, unhappy Chanseys must be prepared for against more experienced ones. Things like Lightning Rod Heatran (lol), who is also nice for Cubes in general, as well as Fur Coat mons of your own (I prefer Umbreon for STAB Foul Play), work well here.
Hopefully this set is not too bad. Any suggestions/feedback are appreciated as always.
Kyurem-Black @ Icicle Plate/Leftovers
Trait: Refridgerate
Nature: Adamant
Happiness: 1
EVs: Standard
-Shift Gear
-Frustration
-Bolt Strike
-Infestation/Hail/Kings Shield/Spiky Shield/Roost
A set that I have been trying out, and it has done very well. Its not completely Imposter immune though, Chans hits pretty hard with a boosted Bolt Strike, but you 2HKO them at +1, while they cannot even 3HKO (at +1, be careful about getting greedy with boosts against Chans, +2 is generally all you need), unless it is an unhappy Chans. Icicle Plate is the better item imo, allowing you to OHKO MM2X at +1, and Mega Tyranitar at +2. The last moveslot is up to preference, each has its own advantages. I like Hail because it prevents non-SG Shed from simply switching in, Baton Passing out, and repeating like it can if you run Spiky Shield. However, Spiky/Kings Shield prevent revenge killers from revenging you as easily. Infestation can also be used for Shed, but requires prediction as it must be used on the turn Shed switches in, which can lead to situations where you mispredict and have to take a hit, which this set hates cause of no recovery. If you are confident in your ability to keep hazards up though, run Roost. U-Turning/Baton Passing/Volt Switching is the best way to get this set in, especially if you catch one of the numerous things Fake Out + ExtremeSpeed Cube nornally scares out on the switch.
Good teamates for this set include Mons to lure and KO Fur Coat mons, as this set hates those if they are not weak to its attacks. While unlikely against newer players, unhappy Chanseys must be prepared for against more experienced ones. Things like Lightning Rod Heatran (lol), who is also nice for Cubes in general, as well as Fur Coat mons of your own (I prefer Umbreon for STAB Foul Play), work well here.
Hopefully this set is not too bad. Any suggestions/feedback are appreciated as always.
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This isn't really Imposter resistant. Teams with 2 Chansey should always have one happy and one sad, and even teams with one Chansey should strongly consider running sad Chansey (mons that run Return usually aren't built with being anti-imposter in mind, and thus often have other good moves to use against the user).
That being sad, choosing what 102 BP physical normal move to copy is a really stupid decision to have to make, as it adds variance without adding any strategic depth (there's no reason to run one over the other except that the simulator defaults to happy mons). I would be more than okay with Frustration being banned for that reason. Being Imposter resistant 50% of the time is pretty random and bleh.
Yes, I know that in practice, it will be Imposter resistant fairly often, but that's because most people aren't that good and don't think about these things.
That Kyurem-B set is actually a potent sweeper even without imposter resistance, as long as the user does not depend on its possible imposter resistance, it works very well indeed. Also, I don't see how Frustration even deserves a ban, it only adds a little variance, I don't see how that is a valid reason to ban the move. Possible Imposter resistance is just icing on the cake.
Teams with Double Chansey will never make it very far against good players, because they'll fall to anti-imposter mons. Remember my Magnet Pull Dialga that I trapped your Chansey with early in Gen VI? A second Chansey will fall just the same to that regardless of the happiness unless it has a Shed Shell.
Moves are banned based on how broke they are and as I recall you said that Facade with Poison Heal was far stronger than Frustration/Return is. Just because you are a Double Chansey user doesn't mean anti-imposter things should be banned. Frustration/Return is not broken at all, very few people use them in fact.
E4 Flint makes his Chanseys have 123 happiness that way they can still fight against Frustration or Return.
I disagree. Anti imposter Pokemon can be pretty strong, but no team is just two Chanseys. Players have four other slots in which they can put checks to offensive threats. It is rare that a defensive threat beats Chanseys, because even after knock off, they still have lots of hp and pp. I personally don't think double Chansey is an outstanding strategy on higher levels, but it can't be denied that in many matchups, specifically against no-Chansey stall, double Chansey is quite successful, albeit not overwhelmingly more successful than monoChansey.
If there is any easy ban that can be made that will invariably improve the metagame with no cost to strategy, is it a worthy ban? On one hand, more bans are considered bad. On the other, some things are useless and only hurt the metagame, for example endless battles, which were banned from standard just recently. By the way, were those banned from other metagames like this one? I had heard that they weren't and if they haven't been yet, they should be.
I'm sorry if I came off a little aggressive in this post. I mean no offense.
True, no team is just two Chanseys. My reasoning behind that was a single Chansey is 1/6th of your team, while two chanseys is 1/3 of your team. In my experience it's tough to compete with only 2/3 of your team if there is strong anti-imposters in play. Yes, Chansey excel at beating defensive threats, and an additional one can be quite strong there too. If one Chansey is giving you trouble, two surely will. :P
Although an easy ban could perhaps improve the metagame, bans should be few and only if said move/ability/etc. is broken. To me, broken is when something can be abused so well that countering it is necessary and even then your options are limited, if they say adjust one of the moves. An easy ban on the moves Double Team and Minimize, along with the ability Contrary would be easy bans that I'd approve of but they aren't broken, as both are countered well by Unaware.
Endless battles are broken, because not only do they bring a negative vibe to the metagame by taking away the skill, they can frustrate new players and possibly turn them away from what I believe to be the greatest tier on PS. I don't think they are banned as of right now, we really just need leppa out of the picture, it doesn't have much else of a use in BH.
Your post was great, no offense here.
Pokemon was not necessarily designed with competitive play in mind, and certainly was not designed with competitive Balanced Hackmons in mind. As a result, there is stuff in BH that adds no depth (there's no real strategic reason to prepare for Frustration over Return, since they do the same thing) but still requires players to make a decision that will randomly leave them disadvantaged about 50% of the time (at the highest level of play). This is bad game design, which is understandable as BH is a meta the designers never intended to exist. Fortunately, it is bad design that is easily fixable.
If Frustration was the only anti-imposter strategy available, and banning it would have a noticeable effect on the metagame, I would not want to ban it in spite of how luck based and bad it is. If Frustration and Return did different things or were different types or were physical/special, I would not want to ban Frustration, since there would be a strategic decision in countering the one your team is more vulnerable to. This is not the case. Literally, the only thing Frustration adds to BH is an obscure 50/50.
Also, your point about me playing double Chansey fairly frequently and therefore being biased is completely wrong. Double Chansey is intrinsically not vulnerable to Frustration, because you have a happy Chansey and a sad Chansey. Single Chansey should also probably not be vulnerable to Frustration, because Return attackers aren't anti-imposters, so they will usually have other attacking moves good against the user.
You're arguing for a ban on Frustration. Based on a set that's 5/50 anyway. Never mind the plethora of other ways to get 50% results, you go for the one that will sometimes (And it really is sometimes) make an Imposter have a lower power move.
Why? It's not the strongest move, and there are multitudes of other ways of countering this set without Impostering it. You're right that Pokemon wasn't built for balance (Until recently) and especially not with BH in mind, but really? It's a niche move that will see use on about 0.01% of sets ever. I mean seriously. Frustration. There's no upside about banning it other than Imposter users now have to take into account Happiness. And if that means you have to put more than ten seconds of thought into an Imposter, well. Sucks to be the person with one of the least thinking-intensive sets in existance, doesn't it?
But really. As someone who literally never uses Chans or Bliss, you arguing to get something that's not something that's metagame definig banned makes less sense than... Something that makes no sense. Seriously. I could maybe understand something like trying to ban Gigas, Contrary, or something actually relevant to the metagame at large but...
Well, Frustration. WHY?
Also, merry Christmas.
Why? It's not the strongest move, and there are multitudes of other ways of countering this set without Impostering it. You're right that Pokemon wasn't built for balance (Until recently) and especially not with BH in mind, but really? It's a niche move that will see use on about 0.01% of sets ever. I mean seriously. Frustration. There's no upside about banning it other than Imposter users now have to take into account Happiness. And if that means you have to put more than ten seconds of thought into an Imposter, well. Sucks to be the person with one of the least thinking-intensive sets in existance, doesn't it?
But really. As someone who literally never uses Chans or Bliss, you arguing to get something that's not something that's metagame definig banned makes less sense than... Something that makes no sense. Seriously. I could maybe understand something like trying to ban Gigas, Contrary, or something actually relevant to the metagame at large but...
Well, Frustration. WHY?
Also, merry Christmas.
I didn't think anything in this thread could be more idiotic than the "ban all Sleep because the moves introduce variance" argument but nope you proved me wrong
I may not be verbatim, but I think I can say with 100% accuracy that Frustration will never be banned.
lmao
I may not be verbatim, but I think I can say with 100% accuracy that Frustration will never be banned.
lmao
I assume it's ok to post sets I posted in my RMT? I didn't see a rule against it so here we go:
Mega Venusaur:
Yveltal:
You can find more information about what to use them with in my RMT.
Mega Venusaur:
Venusaur-Mega @ Black Sludge
Ability: Prankster
Calm Nature
IVs: null Atk
- Trick
- Taunt
- Roost
- Destiny Bond
Mega Venusaur may seem like an odd choice, however, it has been performing extremely well because of its excellent typing in the current metagame and its immunity to Spore. Black Sludge + Trick not only makes stalling easier, it also allows you to cripple Judgment Plate Pokemon (Mega Gengar, Reshiram and friends) just beware of tricking an Assault Vest, that will make the oversized plant completely useless. Taunt is pretty mandatory on a Prankster without Substitute, this is because Mold Breaker Deoxys-S is a very common lead and must be prepared for. Destiny Bond is another important move because it is a great way to defeat sweepers going haywire. At first I used Spore, then I realised that it's often too predictable to actually work well.
Ability: Prankster
Calm Nature
IVs: null Atk
- Trick
- Taunt
- Roost
- Destiny Bond
Mega Venusaur may seem like an odd choice, however, it has been performing extremely well because of its excellent typing in the current metagame and its immunity to Spore. Black Sludge + Trick not only makes stalling easier, it also allows you to cripple Judgment Plate Pokemon (Mega Gengar, Reshiram and friends) just beware of tricking an Assault Vest, that will make the oversized plant completely useless. Taunt is pretty mandatory on a Prankster without Substitute, this is because Mold Breaker Deoxys-S is a very common lead and must be prepared for. Destiny Bond is another important move because it is a great way to defeat sweepers going haywire. At first I used Spore, then I realised that it's often too predictable to actually work well.
Yveltal:
Yveltal @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Low Kick
- Heal Order
- Imprison / Whirlwind[/QUOTE]
Another odd set, the reason I am using Yveltal is because Mega Gengar and Ghost-Arceus have become very common and this set hardcounters both of them. Knock Off is amazing against Ghost-Arceus (it's always 97 Base Power because its plate cannot be knocked off. Imprison is used to handle Imposters, it works well because this set is walled by Imposter and has many opportunities to set up. Of course, Whirlwind is a great option too. Low Kick is quite interesting, a lot of Pokemon in Balanced Hackmons are extremely heavy so its average Base Power is high, I use it to smash Mega Tyranitar/Gyarados hard.
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Low Kick
- Heal Order
- Imprison / Whirlwind[/QUOTE]
Another odd set, the reason I am using Yveltal is because Mega Gengar and Ghost-Arceus have become very common and this set hardcounters both of them. Knock Off is amazing against Ghost-Arceus (it's always 97 Base Power because its plate cannot be knocked off. Imprison is used to handle Imposters, it works well because this set is walled by Imposter and has many opportunities to set up. Of course, Whirlwind is a great option too. Low Kick is quite interesting, a lot of Pokemon in Balanced Hackmons are extremely heavy so its average Base Power is high, I use it to smash Mega Tyranitar/Gyarados hard.
You can find more information about what to use them with in my RMT.
I'm of the opinion that only three things should be banned: broken stuff, over-centralizing stuff, and stuff that's unhealthy for the metagame. The latter two almost always coincide with the former (endless games being the only exception coming to mind right away). And, except in very clear cases (HP/PP and PB, for example), things should be suspect tested first.
Return/Frustration add little to the metagame. So what? Should we ban them from OU because Ditto users might have to worry about happiness? Should we ban Tackle and Ember from BH because they add little to the metagame? No, of course not. That's just silly.
If you don't want to have to worry about your Imposter getting shafted 50% of the time because you made the wrong decision on happiness, then stop using Imposter. If you want to use it, then be prepared to deal with the downsides.
Return/Frustration add little to the metagame. So what? Should we ban them from OU because Ditto users might have to worry about happiness? Should we ban Tackle and Ember from BH because they add little to the metagame? No, of course not. That's just silly.
If you don't want to have to worry about your Imposter getting shafted 50% of the time because you made the wrong decision on happiness, then stop using Imposter. If you want to use it, then be prepared to deal with the downsides.
Do you think the move, in the context of Balanced Hackmons, leads to a better designed game? Whether it's overpowered (or even good) is irrelevant.
I am of the opinion that banning important, frequently used things should be done with extreme caution. However, when something is not widely used, outclassed, and adds virtually zero depth to the game while creating a pointless 50/50, that begs the question "Why was it included in the first place?"
For those of you who play MtG, imagine if there were A and B versions of every removal spell, and A and B versions of every creature. Other than letter, the different versions are exactly identical (and both versions count to the same 4 of a card per deck limit). However, A removal spells can only target A creatures, and B removal spells can only target B creatures.
Some Questions:
1. Is this good design?
2. Is "Don't play removal spells if you don't want to deal with it" the proper way to react?
3. Would the better player be more or less likely to win without this restriction?
4. If you were designing MtG, would you include this mechanic?
Some Comments:
1. Yes, I realize that this scenario is more extreme than the one we have here (meaning it would impact a much greater % of games). As stated before, the unimportance of frustration is part of what makes its banning so appealing to me (very little, if anything, would be lost and a significant amount of variance would be avoided).
2. If you are unfamiliar with MtG, all you really need to know to understand the above situation is that removal kills creatures and removes them from the board. It is reactive, like Chansey, which is why I chose it.
Lastly, I think that a lot of people have this idea that as little should be banned as possible. I think that rather than looking at the length of the banlist, the important thing is how much the banlist impacts the meta. You want to minimize the impact of the banlist on the meta while maximizing the competitiveness of the meta and maintaining a degree of diversity. Here, the (minor) gains to competitiveness outweigh the (almost nonexistent) impact on the meta.
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