Ladder Balanced Hackmons

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#1
What?



Following in the tradition of the original Balanced Hackmons, BHXY is an experiment in the reduction of teambuilding restrictions. You can use almost any pokemon with any move with any item.
The current banlist and clauses as follows:
- OHKO moves
- Wonder Guard
- Huge Power
- Pure Power
- Shadow Tag
- Arena Trap
- Parental Bond
- Evasion Moves
- Endless Battle trolling
- Assist
- Chatter
- Ability Clause - No more than 2 of the same ability on your team.
- -Ate Clause - Only 1 instance of either Aerilate, Pixilate, or Refrigerate on your team.
-Primal Kyogre
-Primal Groudon

Where?



Balanced Hackmons XY is hosted on Zarel's online competitive pokemon simulator Pokemon Showdown.


Metagame Analysis

As hackmons has less determining factors (only base stats and typing are relevent) than any other metagame, the few determining factors mean that it is much easier to determine which pokemon is "best" in its particular field and as a result, very few pokemon are truly usable in Hackmons (think ubers insofar as # of viable pokemon is concerned). Because of this, the variety in Hackmons comes less from what pokemon you use and more from what abilities and items you use on them.



Conclusion

Feel free to treat this like the last thread, as a base for chronicling the changes in the metagame and as a source of new ideas. I am incredibly proud to have been a part of Balanced Hackmons last gen and I hope that we can all work together to make BHXY just as, if not more fun.
 
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#4
Ok, so i've been testing custom games, like 5th gen BH, anti-palks have always been valuable, however, there is a new reliable Anti-Palk...



Ferrothorn V.2 (Azumarill) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Calm Nature
- Topsy-turvy
- Heal Order
- Substitute
- Baton Pass

Topsy Turvy is absolutely insane this gen, it gets passed Magic Bounce and Substitute, Azumarill is basically a more reliable Ferrothorn, it sub-passes well and can shut down sweepers with Topsy Turvy and because it's fairy type, it resists Palkia's STABs

Another amazing Pokemon I have been testing fulfills the same role Skarmory does:


Skarmory V.2 (Gourgeist) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Bold Nature
- Entrainment
- Heal Order
- Topsy-turvy/Baton Pass/Parting Shot
- Aromatherapy

Like Skarmory, it walls standard PH Regigigas and can destroy it with Entrainment, and unlike Skarmory, it can actually beat Landorus-T with ease, 70/120 physical bulk allows it to tank both very easily, because Topsy Turvy is amazing, it should be an option in any defensive pokemon, Baton Pass is also extremely useful, while Parting Shot has strange mechanics, for example, if Parting Shot is bounced, the bouncer gets to switch to whoever he likes. There is one issue though, it is able to change forms from Small size to Super Size (Super Size has higher HP) we still do not know if the current Gourgeist's BST has the Super form, expect it to become even better.

We all know how annoying Mold Breaker Lugia is with its very high bulk and high speed, most rely on Stealth Rock and brute force to damage it, however, there is a new Mold Breaker in town...



The new Moldy (Zygarde) @ Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
IVs: NaN Atk
- Dark Void
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Whirlwind

With a fantastic base speed, 130 all around bulk, a resistant to SR, and an immunity to Sandstorm, Zygarde overall is an amazing Mold Breaker supporter, Dark Void is usually better than Spore because it allows it to put grass types to sleep, Hazards are there for obvious reasons and Whirlwind allows sleep phazing.
 
#6
I'm wondering mechanics.
In generation 5, there were forms that were only available mid battle (cherrim, melloeta, Darmanitan.) yet they could start with those forms in Balanced Hackmons.
Could the same apply to Mega Pokemon? Could we use Mega Mewtwo with Life Orb?
 
#8
In that case, contrary Mega Mewtwo Y.
+2 252 SpA (custom 194 special Attack) Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lugia: 164-193 (39.42 - 46.39%) -- 98.44% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 
#10
I like the new Aegislash. In general, I think it is my new favorite Pokemon, but in BH in particular it seems very deadly. I use the shield form with magic bounce to beat Regigigas and many of the dragons. It can also spinblock. I use it over registeel now as my defensive bouncer, although I like the idea of Dialga as a more offensive one.

I am wondering particularly about its potential in terms of the offensive sword form. With insane offenses, it could see use as a tr sweeper, maybe with that mighty gyro ball to leverage its relatively low speed.

Also I few moves that seem like they have potential:

Sticky web has an odd description, it may be an entry hazard that lowers speed. If it is, that is very, very good.

Electrify is a move that changes opposing moves that come after it to the electric type. Most likely it will see use on ground pranksters, who can copycat it to become immune to attacks.

Spiky shield is super anti sheddy


Also, I don't see much in all the hype this new necturna like thing is getting. Sure, it has 120 spec def and a fun type, but it doesn't have the fancy typing that allows Skarm to tank dragon moves, or the raw defensive stats that the tier has come to expect from a bouncer.
 
#11
I agree with Rum- aegislash is very good and necturna thing is not going to be around for long. However, I don't think sword stance aegi will be any good, even in tr in BH.

After very brief testing, mega mons are broken in my opinion. Garchomp, mewtwo y, and maybe more to come are broken. Stuff like charizard and gyarados might be ok but those are ridiculous.
 
#12
I'll post links to the list of new pokemons, abilities, items and moves just so we can get a quickly acess to it and discuss the subject that are new combinations.

Pokemons:

http://www.serebii.net/xy/pokemon.shtml

Abilities:

http://www.serebii.net/xy/abilities.shtml

Items:

http://www.serebii.net/xy/newitems.shtml

Moves:

http://www.serebii.net/xy/attacks.shtml

Well, let's be creative then!

-Aerilate, Pixilate and Refrigerate: In my opinion the ice version is the better of them because it has the most offensive pokemon for the job (Kyurem-B), but all of them can access its support potencial with Rapid Spin;
-Dark and Fairy Auras, Mega Launcher, Strong Jaw and Tough Claws: All of those abilities are restricted to some kind of moves, so their usefulness depends on how much they boost those moves;
-Fuar Coat being the defensive version of Huge/Pure Power could be added on any wall to make it bulkier, like Giratina or Eviolite Chansey;
-Gale Wings could be used on Rayquaza for priority Brave Bird + Roost, or Oblivion Wing if damage and recovery at same time suits you better;
-Parental Bond can be broken, but i think it is in the same boat as Forecast, Multitype, Zen Mode, among others abilities that only works on their respective original pokemons;
-With the highest Attack stat in the game, Mega Mewtwo X will be the best user of Huge/Pure Power (put Close Combat and Psycho Cut on it), while its brother Y will do great with Stored Power + Stat Boosting Moves (combined with Mold Breaker, Poison Heal, or Simple);
-Prankster Ground + Electrify doesn't look so good, since you'll have to use it every turn to make your opponent's attacks into electric;
-Despite weak, Freeze Dry may show some uses for Kyurem-W, and since we're talking about Kyurem-W, what about a Choice Specs Sniper now that Frost Breath got a boost?
-Geomancy + Power Herb (like in Uber metagame) + Simple?
-Infestation is like Clamp or Fire Spin, except it has 100% accuracy and there's no immunity against: It will be good with Perish Song or Endeavor Sturdinja;
-I can see steel pokemons using Powder to preventing possible fire attacks (unless your opponent doesn't fear exploding itself);
-What is the highest attack stat among Water pokemons? 130 from Kingler? What about Mega Gyarados? Just imagine those things with Choice Band, Skill Link and Water Shuriken under rain.
-Assault Vest is like half of an Eviolite (only Sp Def boost) that works on any pokemon (not only those Not Fully Evolved), but it makes impossible the use of status moves, now imagine Fuar Coat or Unaware Shuckle with it on Sand: This thing would be immortal;
-The defensive form of Aegislash looks very promising, but its blade form doesn't (too much of a glass cannon for BH enviroment);
-I can see Xerneas and Yvetal on good support roles, but not as much on offensive roles, while Zygard looks an interesting wall;

For now that's it, bring your thoughts people!
 
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#13
Ok, here are some great sets at the moment:



Yveltal @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Crunch
- Brave Bird
- Roost

Yveltal counters Nature Power users, spins well because of its SE crunch to rapid blockers such as Aegislash and Giratina, and it also has high bulk! 100 base speed tier also greatly aids it!



Xerneas (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Calm Nature
IVs: null Atk
- Heal Order
- Perish Song
- Moon Blast
- Foul Play

Xerneas is now the best Unaware in the metagame, because of its immunity to dragon, it walls Kyurem-W and Latios well, additionally, it hits very hard with Moon Blast and can speed tie with the 670 bst normal brothers.



Carbink @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef
Careful Nature
IVs: null SAtk / 0 Spd
- Magic Coat
- Heal Order
- Stealth Rock
- Skill Swap

Carbink is quite an interesting pokemon, resisting both of Yveltal's STABS while countering Reshiram effectively. Magic Coat allows it to bounce back things that would threaten it such as Taunt, and Dark Void while Heal Order is standard for walls and Skill Swap + Stealth Rock pair nicely, use it on bouncers to set rocks or use it on Magic Guard Yveltal.



Registeel V.2 (Aegislash) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Bold Nature
- Entrainment
- Heal Order
- Whirlwind
- Aromatherapy

Aegislash is overall, the best anti-Poison Heal Regigigas available, something all successful BH teams should have. Entrainment is standard on anti-gigas bounce users while Whirlwind can phaze a substitute'd Gigas, something that would really threaten your team since you can't Entrainment through Substitute. Aromatherapy and Heal Order are used for longevity and team support.
 
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#14
Oh you were using magic guard yveltal. I kept thinking it was poison heal and couldn't figure out why it didn't take damage from my insomnia xerneas' rocky helmet. I was tired lol. Timid Yveltal > Jolly Yveltal noob. Also I'm not so sure carbink is worth using. The way it took a +1 EQ from a weak zygarde wasn't very impressive. Rhyming would have taken like nothing from it lol. B the way can you give carbink a smooth rock and make sandstorm last for 8 turns? That would be very cool.

One thing I'm looking into is water types. Your usual water type counters aren't so common. Giratina is not very popular right now. The only dragons that are are megachomp and zygarde, which are neutral to water. Azumarill exists, but not that much. As for what water type to use, I kind of like mega gyarados. It's fairy weakness really sucks, but it has the HP and SpD to take a geomancy. I would probably send it out with sheer force or shift gear poison heal. The other Megan that have potential that have stats out are scizor, mewtwos, and maybe manectric. Ie beam off that SpA will really hurt common nature powers users, many of which are 4x weak to it.


Assault vest looks very good (although it isn't clear how big the boost is), but I think it prevents the user from using status moves. Still incredibly good on pokemon with good defense but lower special defense, or just allows unawares to not sweat about contrary shit.
 
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#15
So, one pokemon that stood out to me is refrigerate Kyurem-White. With the ability refrigerate, Kyurem is capable of abusing not only unblockable spins, it is also able to abuse the extremely powerful boom-burst, which has 140 BP, and is ice type with the refrigerate ability. I have a feeling that this will be a major threat to watch out for during gen 6.
 
#16
Some thoughts:

1. Geomancy is mediocre at best. It would have been absolute garbage before the Mold Breaker fix, now that it doesn't get hard walled by Unaware it might be fringe usable. Still, boosting moves that are only good once and require an item slot as well don't seem like very good candidates for the BH meta.
EDIT: The more I think about it, the more I notice similarities between Geomancy and BD. This isn't really a good thing- BD is notorious for never actually being that good against good people.

2. Gale Wing will not be as good as it looks at first glance. The fact that weather is no longer permanent means that Hurricane spam isn't as feasible as it seems, and the nerf to Hurricane doesn't help either (though it's not really a huge deal). Flying really only has a few good moves (Hurricane, Roost, Brave Bird, and possibly Oblivion Wing) and of those moves, half would rather have another ability (Prankster and Magic Guard for Roost and Brave Bird).

3. Aegislash is the shit. No, I will never be attacking with it. In regular mons, Aegislash is the epitome of a bulky attacker, but here it is much more of a wall. It can do pretty much anything defensive Gira can do (besides maybe D-Tail spam) and is one of the best MB users in the game atm. Nerf to steel's defensive capabilities hurts it a bit, but I expect this to appear on many teams.

4. Refrigerate is basically Scrappy when it comes to spinning, and allows for Ice Boombursts and Espeeds as well. Should be very good on both Kyurem forms, and is really no different from scrappy on a dedicated spinner.

5. Sticky Web will be used, though I think this goes without saying. It comes close to being a permanent tailwind. Stall will use it to recover before taking a hit, and aggro will use it to hit them before they hit you. Meta should be fairly stallish (once we ban Huge and Pure Power, which we really shouldn't even test- they're stupid and were banned for a reason) so this might not be as great as it ought to be in other tiers, but I would be very surprised if it isn't still very good.

6. Why are we testing Huge and Pure Power? Why? Huge Power Slaking is going to eclipse 50% of the "real" gen 6 meta until we ban it, so why wait? Just because Fur Coat exists does not mean that these abilities will be much less broken.

7. We should ban dark void. This is probably not going to happen, but I think its presence is inherently bad for any meta that develops. In Gen 6, grass types are going to be immune to spore (and sleep powder). This change means that an absolute answer to spore now exists- grass types. Now, by switching to dark void, people are going to be able to get around this answer, in exchange for an accuracy drop which will increase hax and random variance. Letting a worse version of a strategy mostly beat a specific answer to that strategy is generally bad, because it makes the game more RPS-y. Instead of building teams which are objectively good, you have to guess if most of your opponents will have a grass type or not. This isn't good for the meta because it makes it less skill dependent: it A) Increases hax and B) Creates a "guessing game" where there is no right answer, and you can't even read your opponent to predict what they might do. You are going to have the wrong sleep move sometimes- the existence of dark void will randomly put one player at a disadvantage before the match even begins. The combination of A and B makes it much more difficult to play a low variance team (a team with few to no haxy moves that is rarely at a noticeable teambuilding disadvantage, even if it rarely has an advantage either). Just my thoughts, I'm curious what other people think on this.
 
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#17
So, I remember reading about an ability that works as an electric type refrigerate. If this ends up being real (having a hard time finding another mention of it, so it may be fake), then landorus-i could be a threat. The idea for the set is

Landorus I @ Icicle Plate
Ability: Whatever it's called
Ev's: Come on, you know it
Nature: Modest
- Shell Smash
- Judgement
- Boom Burst
- Earth power

The idea behind this set is that it's capable of easily breaking through any imposter with icicle plate judgment, and yet is immune to the opponent's judgment due to it's ability making it an electric type. If you pair this up with something like shadow tag tyranitar/yveltal (to get rid of annoying unawares), it could have a fun time sweeping, with the only thing to look out for being the ever annoying topsy turvy. This idea kind of plays off of the Landorus therian set, using the idea of landorus being immune to it's own attacks to sweep. What gives this set it's edge though, is that extra ice coverage that let's it hit imposters SE, and probably OHKO them. Also, it is capable of 2hkoing aegislash, but needs modest to do it through calm (it just makes it, and appreciates rocks in case of lefties, but still). I can see this guy being a very capable cleaner, especially if topsy-turvy gets banned. (Like I think it will, as the move completely destroys offense. It's not even funny, I tried facing Adrian, and if you try to set up, something like prankster azu or ferro can just come in, and reverse your boosts. Annoying as hell)
 
#19
Frost breath > ice beam in almost all cases. I agree with everything ntiller said also. Also we should ban trapping abilities, all of them in my opinion (magnet pull).
 
#20
If we do ban trapping abilities, we should ban magnet pull also. I would rather wait to ban them though, since Ghosts are now immune to trapping, and Gira/Aegislash will likely be on almost every team anyway. They'll still probably end up banworthy, but I'd like to at least look at them. They add an interesting dimension to the game that "MOAR POWERRR!!!!" doesn't.

More thoughts:
1. Topsy Turvy is the best anti-booster move we've gotten for pranksters to use yet.

2. Parting Shot could be fun. It's worth noting that it's the only switch move that gets priority from Prankster, which could lead to some interesting teambuilding. If the meta is offensive, it will be very good. If not, it will be okayish.
 
#21
I can also see unaware being a much less dominant choice in this meta due to both moldy and topsy-turvy not existing. This means that offense will be a lot more based on powerful moves such as facade or boom-burst instead of setup sweepers.
 
#22
I haven't laddered the meta yet, but I have played a few casual games with Adrian and others. From what I have seen, the meta is very stall focused, with prankster topsy turvy and unaware Xerneas running the show. Maybe that's just because I have faced Adrian, though, because the megas all look broken in terms of sheer pants shitting offensive capabilities.

I stand by offensive aegislash! I am currently considering a set for it involving the now super effective ghost judgement. With this move and gyro ball to bring the pain to Xerneas, it seems like a very anti meta threat. It's typing is awesome enough that it doesn't need any sort of defensive stat to tank stuff like moon burst, either.

I also tried fridge kyu-w. It has potential, but it's too slow, whereas stuff like 192 spa stronger than Arceus mega Mewtwo-y can just run around while taking a shit on stuff with spore, because it can spore the pranksters after they use topsy on it. It also is really, really strong. And it has stabbed stored power, which on standard Mewtwo can OHKO Lugia and Latias after two shell smashes. This Newtwo can OHKO gira after one. It can be hard to stop if you don't have prankster sub and topsy on something.

Right now I think that Chansey is by far the best Pokemon in the metagame. With its endless bulk and ability to out stall stall and out sweep offense, it is a boon on nearly every team. With the meta in such a new form, people haven't had much time to come up with niche stuff that beats Chansey, especially when prank topsy and unaware Xern exist to kill teh sweeps.

I am thinking that Gale Wing might be good on belly drum sweepers, because flying has kickass neutral coverage with stuff like dark to beat up aegislash. Unaware Xerneas and Chansey both beat it, though...
 
#23
So, I remember reading about an ability that works as an electric type refrigerate. If this ends up being real (having a hard time finding another mention of it, so it may be fake), then landorus-i could be a threat. The idea for the set is

Landorus I @ Icicle Plate
Ability: Whatever it's called
Ev's: Come on, you know it
Nature: Modest
- Shell Smash
- Judgement
- Boom Burst
- Earth power

The idea behind this set is that it's capable of easily breaking through any imposter with icicle plate judgment, and yet is immune to the opponent's judgment due to it's ability making it an electric type. If you pair this up with something like shadow tag tyranitar/yveltal (to get rid of annoying unawares), it could have a fun time sweeping, with the only thing to look out for being the ever annoying topsy turvy. This idea kind of plays off of the Landorus therian set, using the idea of landorus being immune to it's own attacks to sweep. What gives this set it's edge though, is that extra ice coverage that let's it hit imposters SE, and probably OHKO them. Also, it is capable of 2hkoing aegislash, but needs modest to do it through calm (it just makes it, and appreciates rocks in case of lefties, but still). I can see this guy being a very capable cleaner, especially if topsy-turvy gets banned. (Like I think it will, as the move completely destroys offense. It's not even funny, I tried facing Adrian, and if you try to set up, something like prankster azu or ferro can just come in, and reverse your boosts. Annoying as hell)
I remember something about a move that turns Normal-moves to Electric after it's used, but Ability i just remember Aerilate (Flying), Pixilate (Fairy) and Refrigerate (Ice).
 

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