Ladder Balanced Hackmons

EV

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To confirm:
[13:57:16] <~Stellar> im testing out protean now
[13:57:35] <~Stellar> it transforms before dealing damage
[13:57:37] <dtc> what pkmn do you have that as protean
[13:57:38] <~Stellar> so you get STAB on everything
[13:57:39] <dtc> oh nice
[13:57:43] <~Stellar> kecleon
[13:57:45] <%tennisace> oh wow
[13:57:48] <%Treecko> nice

The exact order:
Kecleon used Shadow Sneak!
Kecleon transformed into the Ghost type!
Kecleon dealt damage.
AND
Protean works with non-attacking moves. I will test Hidden Power in a bit.
Frogadier used Smokescreen!
Frogadier transformed into the Normal type!
The opponent's accuracy was lowered.
 
I don't know if i'm overestimating Protean or what, but now i got really excited about this.

I mean, you could pick up Mewtwo-X/Y (the two higher Atk/Sp Atk on the metagame) and select a bunch of powerful physical/special attacks that covers each other + some stat boosting move, or even go straight All-Out Attacker, and the best thing is that such thing works for defense too, not only for STAB!

Imagine Mewtwo-X against Latios. Latios resists both of Mewtwo-X STABs and can send it to hell (or at least do a bunch of damage) with Draco Meteor, but Mewtwo-X not only outspeeds Latios, as it uses some Fairy attack, damaging Latios for a Super Effective STAB, and even if Latios survive, now you are immune to Draco Meteor!

Protean could be put on powerful attackers that are generally walled by something, and then those powerful attackers would use some attack that are SE against that wall, or some attack that would give the attacker some type to resist/become immune to the predicted attack of the wall/revenge killer/whatever.

Another example:

Some Bulky Fairy come in Kyurem-B to tank its attacks, but happens that Kyurem-B got Gear Grind or something, now the Fairy is eliminated and you have acted as a perfect bait/bluff.
 
In other news, while Shuckle lost his Perma Sand, he gained the move Infestation. This is a quite decent trapping move.
Shuckle@Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVS: do I really need to
Infestation
Leech Seed
Substitute
Dark Void/Toxic/Protect
With Leech Seed and Infestation up, you could be losing 25% of your health each turn. Substitute and Leech Seed is classic Shuckle, and the last slot can be a sleep move ( i prefer lower accuracy over the spore nerf) or something to help you stall even more.
 

Arcticblast

free DAMAGE combo in expanded
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If Protean works with non-damaging moves (iirc it does), it would first change the user's type to Flying, then Roost would change it to Normal until the end of that turn. That depends on how mono-Flying and Roost interact, however.
 
In Generation 5 pure Flying types using Roost turn into Normal types until the turn ends. Protean Roost is basically the same of Protean Recover, unless for some reasons(sleep, flinch, paralysis) you can't move next turn.
 

verbatim

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Since XY is not hackable, and therefore we can't use testing to figure out how BH would be implemented, we might be getting certain creative liberties in deciding how mechanics work. With that in mind, how do you guys think we should implement mega evolutions, important questions to answer

1. Should BH mons require their stone to mega evolve?
2. Are we going to stick to the 1 mega evolution per fight?
 

Monte Cristo

Banned deucer.
Since XY is not hackable, and therefore we can't use testing to figure out how BH would be implemented, we might be getting certain creative liberties in deciding how mechanics work. With that in mind, how do you guys think we should implement mega evolutions, important questions to answer

1. Should BH mons require their stone to mega evolve?
2. Are we going to stick to the 1 mega evolution per fight?
"FLORGESSS: just let mega-evos be
FLORGESSS: don't restrict them
FLORGESSS: BH is all about being free and having little to no restrictions
FLORGESSS: we can compare this to other mid battle form changes like darmZ and meloP
FLORGESSS: who can be used in their prespective formes
FLORGESSS: in BH"
 

verbatim

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Darmanitan-Z and Meloetta-P were based off of the in game mechanics, not a consensus decision by staff.
 
I honestly think banning all Mega Evolutions or restricting 1 per team is not necessary, the only unbalancing Mega Evolution is Mewtwo-Y, all other mega evolutions will see a lot of use for a healthy metagame and have many interesting uses such as Mega Aggron, Mega Tyranitar, Mega Blaziken, and Mega Lucario, all in all, I think the best approach is to either ban Mewtwo-Y or even X, with abilities like Protean, they become extremely powerful, becoming almost impossible to wall without an Imposter or a specialized set. Even then, the counters must rely on prediction because Protean Mewtwo-Y can easily Spore the target while becoming a grass type making it immune to Spore, i.e bouncers can't put it to sleep if it spores them. I hardly ever see a team without Mewtwo-Y (Even worst than Regigigas.) Mewtwo-Y is just really unhealthy for this metagame, counters are situational and almost every single team uses one.
 
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Since XY is not hackable, and therefore we can't use testing to figure out how BH would be implemented, we might be getting certain creative liberties in deciding how mechanics work. With that in mind, how do you guys think we should implement mega evolutions, important questions to answer

1. Should BH mons require their stone to mega evolve?
2. Are we going to stick to the 1 mega evolution per fight?
1. No;
2. No;

Now i'll explain why i think like this: Most MegaMons have an Uber-like BST, so ban those things would be the same as ban Kyogre and such. I mean, Charizard-X and Reshiram have the same type, both can have any ability and move (since this is BH), but Charizard has a BST of 634 while Reshiram has 680, and the same applies to most MegaMons, so there is no need of banning them or restrict only one per team or restrict them to their MegaStones, such things would totally nuke the versatility of this metagame, which is its main and selling point.

The exception would be those MegaMewtwo with 760 and 780 BST (X and Y respectively, by the way, shouldn't both of them have equal BST?), but even them don't deserve ban or something.
 

BLOOD TOTEM

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Protean works with non-attacking moves. I will test Hidden Power in a bit.
Frogadier used Smokescreen!
Frogadier transformed into the Normal type!
The opponent's accuracy was lowered.
If it changes type for non attacking moves too this means firing off safe Spores is easy with Protean considering Grass types can't be slept anymore so Magic Bounce won't screw you over.

Also Mega Mewtwo 4 ban or at least force it run its stone cause that thing aint healthy for this meta.
 

EV

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1. No
2. No
I think Megas should participate without stones similar to how Giratina can be either forme without the Griseous Orb.

BH shouldn't restrict Megas that often are on par with or weaker than most Ubers. The restrictions make sense in standard format where they outpower just about everything, but in BH we should loosen restrictions, not encourage them.
 
Alright, I'm thinking that we should allow all mega evos to be used with mega evolution or mega stones, but I am also of the opinion that some of them are deserving of suspect testing (most notably Mewtwo Y).

Also, on a completely unrelated note, does the fact that XY is unhackable mean that we get to determine how mechanics are implemented when it is impossible to create a scenario in-game?
 

Pikachuun

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I wonder if it is possible to get into the 3DS/XY... It would certainly allow us to see what really goes on in the game, and possibly play BH on the 3DS :o
 
The title of the thread should be XYBH, not BHXY. You call tiers by their generation and then tier. It's ADV OU, not OU ADV for example. Trivial, but it's been bothering me.
 
Give it time. Someone will figure out how to hack the 3DS and X/Y sooner or later.

Anyway, while I presently don't care either way for both questions when it comes to balance reasons, I am leaning towards solo meaglutions and possibly requiring them to megavolve for two reasons. 1) Considering how anti-cheaty they seem to have designed X/Y, that's the most likely scenario in-game. 2) Whenever someone finally gets around to figuring out how to hack the 3DS (and trust me, they will sooner or later), we might find the opposite of what we are doing to be true.

Now for #2, imagine if we allowed megas as freely as anything else and it turned out that, in-game, it's impossible to do that. BH, while being an anything goes type of meta, does still respect hard-coded limits AFAIK. So in that situation, the meta would get updated and suddenly most or all of us would have one, likely multiple, possibly all, of their teams rendered invalid and require major overhauling to be legal. That would be a PITA. Conversely, if we restricted megas and it turned out there wasn't any when it came to hacking in-game, then the worst case scenario is that a number of teams will need significant updates to remain viable. But, regardless, they'll still be legal.

Of course, either scenario would be a major metagame upset, but the former would be a much bigger PITA for all involved than the latter. Now my concerns might turn out to be a non-issue. But, we don't know for certain at this stage and I have more or less an equal shot at being completely right as I do at being completely wrong. Hence why I'd lean towards restricting megas: the potential for causing problems and team legality issues for everyone involved in the long term is lower.
 
Is possible to use Giratina-O and Darmanitan-Z in-game?

I mean, Giratina-O without Griseous Orb and Darmanitan-Z from the start lol
 
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verbatim

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I mean, Giratina-O without Griseous Orb and Darmanitan-Z from the start lol
Yes, this is why you can do so in BH gen 5.

The title of the thread should be XYBH, not BHXY. You call tiers by their generation and then tier. It's ADV OU, not OU ADV for example. Trivial, but it's been bothering me.
That naming convention applies to official Smogon Metagames. Balanced Hackmons is an other metagame, and not bound by that nomenclature, also BHXY sounds cooler.

Cool name approved by Arcticblast
 
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