Pokémon X & Y In-game Tier List Discussion

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Its_A_Random said:
Going to propose the following for instant tiering in the next update... Which I should definitely do within the next 48 hours... x_x

Basically I want to get some of the obvious ones who are terribly inefficient in-game out of the way & place them all into E (Barring trade-less Phantump & Pumpkaboo). All of these either have terrible stats, come late & have mediocre but workable stats, or can only be caught in hordes during the mountain phase of the game. One can argue for trade-less Spritzee & Swirlix for F-Tiering, & I will certainly leave that open, but mainly that comes down to how well they do gym three. I was considering placing up Sneasel for E because of its inability to evolve pre-e4 (Gligar cannot evolve either), but it does not look like it sucks that badly, so I have left it off for now.

If no one objects, these proposed Pokémon will go into the stated tiers next update, as well as some of the others already discussed.
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Agreed, sounds fine.

I also suggested Shedinja for F-tier a few times a while back as well if you want to throw him in there too. Common weaknesses / generally bad movepool generally make him too difficult to be worthwhile. I guess you could potentially say E, but I thought Ninjask was just barely useable at E so I'd say Shedinja is definitely worse.
 
Unless Dodrio drops off considerably in the latter half of the game (I've just beaten Ramos), it is definitely a strong candidate for B (maybe A) tier. Caught on Route 5, teach it Return, grab Aerial Ace and just start killing stuff. For the most part Return outdamages Aerial Ace and even when you get Fly (I didn't realise his flying movepool was so bad non-existent until Drill Peck [At level 47 -_-]). Basically you are wrecking everything with strong fast STAB Returns, which as we know from Azurill can be pretty deadly.

Rest of the team is reasonably solid too. Butterfree isn't as powerful as Vivillon, but it does have Sleep Powder, which is a huge plus. It also gets Silver Wind early too. Chesnaught and Blastoise are reasonable. Wartortle did some work against hordes with bubble and Quilladin is strong where it needs to be.

I am hating Tyrunt atm... It dies so often to things it really shouldn't be. I am confused how people rate it so high, even with Eviolite its defences seem poor and its typing seems bad. Malamar seems pretty solid too, even if his damage output can be very variable thanks to Foul Play.
 
Banryu said:
Agreed, sounds fine.

I also suggested Shedinja for F-tier a few times a while back as well if you want to throw him in there too. Common weaknesses / generally bad movepool generally make him too difficult to be worthwhile. I guess you could potentially say E, but I thought Ninjask was just barely useable at E so I'd say Shedinja is definitely worse.
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Shedinja in the hands of an experienced player will have much better matchups though, won't he?

One use for Shedinja that may have been overlooked is the ability to set up on safe enemies with Swords Dance, then hitting things with priority +6 Shadow Sneak off 90 base attack. Doesn't necessarily KO. Doesn't help against Olympia where everything has a SE coverage move against you, but in the final battle against Diantha you could set up on Hawlucha or Aurorus, maybe lure out Gourgeist or Gardevoir and try to KO them with Shadow Sneak (Gourgeist has his own and is faster however; not sure what his AI would do).
 
@ DHR I had the same experience with Tyrunt myself.

As for Shedinja, I dunno, I'd encourage you to try him out for yourself if you consider yourself 'experienced'. Shedinja doesn't get Ninjask's moves like it does in previous generations, so it needs to wait for the Swords Dance T.M. to make use of that and otherwise has to rely on Hone Claws for boosting, which basically isn't worth it. When it evolves its movepool is pretty much restricted to Return and Shadow Claw (Aerial Ace and Dig are also okay I guess), and it doesn't get Shadow Sneak until 38 or Phantom Force until 47-- and I can more or less guarantee that you'll box it before even getting CLOSE to that.

And then there's the matter of the whole Wonder Guard business. As I said a few pages back, you basically NEED to know what moves your opponents are going to have or you're getting KO'd constantly from SE attacks (which are many and VERY common)-- that means checking a level-up guide against all wild Pokemon and most trainer Pokemon, and having to know what you're up against with Gym / Flare trainers that use TMs and such-- needless to say, it's a huge opportunity cost. Prediction with Protect is basically useless, since the shittier AIs will use attacks randomly, and anyone with an SE move is basically shutting you down completely. I guess it has situational use against matchups like Clemont, but Nincada is a huge pain to level-up in the first place, and Shedinja is an even bigger hassle to get experience for because of Wonder Guard shenanigans.

I mean, come on. This is Shedinja we're talking about, and don't get me wrong I love him and all, but do I really need to justify F-tier for it? I'd suggest that others try him out too, but I have a strong feeling that there's going to be a lot of I-told-you-so-ing on my part if anyone does.

Trust me, I wouldn't nominate somebody for F-tier lightly; Shedinja is THAT bad.
 
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Based on my own experience and what other players said in this topic, a lot of the regular enemy trainers do use TMs on their Pokemon, so you can expect fatal SE attacks from just about anything.

Still, here's the full list of such attacks: Smack Down (pretty sure this appears on fighters with a decent enough frequency; my Mega-Aerodactyl was interrupted during Fly by this thing), Shadow Ball, Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Rock Tomb, Aerial Ace, Flame Charge, Thief, Overheat (not sure if I've seen this), Fling (?), Sky Drop, Incinerate, Acrobatics, Shadow Claw, Payback, Stone Edge, Rock Slide, Snarl, Dark Pulse. You should also watch out for Toxic, Will-O-Wisp, Sandstorm and Hail.

And yeah, you really should justify F-tier for Shedinja because this is the Pokemon with the biggest number of completely safe switch-ins in the whole game. If we compare Shedinja's ability to block certain Pokemon entirely and kill them moderately quickly with Return/Shadow Claw/Dig (it has a higher attack than Honedge) to Lucario's ability to kill everything before it moves, then yeah, it's clear which makes for a more efficient run - but how about Pidgey vs Shedinja or Skrelp vs Shedinja? If you play with a bigger team and lower-tier mons, Shedinja's immunity to so many threats (and many "normal" trainers become quite hard in this proposed setting) becomes all the more appealing and distinguishes it from other inhabitants of the lower tiers.

Also, Nincada gets Hone Claws immediately when you catch it and has 100% accuracy with Fury Swipes as soon as you catch it. You get a Luxury Ball before that too, so by the time Shedinja is fully evolved his Return should be dealing decent damage (what with Nincada being an early mon).

I'll probably use Shedinja on my next runthrough pretty soon, after the holidays end. What I'm going to do to check for super-effective move is run Protect on his set and scout when it's safe to stay in and when it's not. iirc the AI can be pretty dumb and not go for the kill, though I have no clue if this applies to all battles or just the wild Pokemon / some of the weaker trainers. We'd probably learn quite a bit from such a run too.
 
I have no problem testing Meditite.

I was thinking of doing a 5 man team to differentiate from the usual standard of 4. I can ditch my starters if everyone wants me to (atm I have Bulba and Fennekin). I was thinking of testing the following, though:

- Honedge really needs to be figured out where to do.
- Unfortunately I really want to test Gengar out this round because Mega Gengar is accessible in-game before the E4.
- Bagon / Axew as IIRC neither of these were really tested / discussed yet.
- Larvitar?

Feel free to help me out. I probably am going to say no on Cubone because being slow really isn't my thing and Marowak is only so sturdy (physically defensive as it may be, on the other spectrum it is not). Though, I guess with Thick Club it hits like a fucking nuke.
 
Honedge should probably drop to A I think, unless we decide to conduct a big shift of other current A mons up to S (Venusaur, Azumarill and Roserade are all potential candidates), but we have too many tiers already so S could be something "exclusive" like the Seth tier in Fire Emblem games. Too slow, evolves late, low special defence until Aegislash. Doesn't really have any bad matchups outside of Morva, though, and he has some potential usage there as well.

We've talked about Axew quite a bit, Bagon slightly less; either one could be discussed at length to understand where they go (Bagon sounds like a C at best, while Axew is B at worst).

Larvitar (Pupitar) joins too late to warrant a serious discussion IMHO. You could try making him your 6th member so that the midgame is still challenging (though it shouldn't be with Medicham and Mega Gengar).

I guess I could test Cubone myself.
 
What I've been using
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Greninja-- A/B
I've really liked this thing, it's very powerful and very fast. To be honest, the frailty isn't much of a problem because usually it can OHKO its opponents, and if it can't really 2HKO its opponent, it probably shouldn't be used against that particular pokemon. Good matchups against gyms, earliest possible availability (SR for good ability), decent matchups against E4, mostly just Malva and Drasna because of Ice Beam. My only problem with it is the movepool. It's not that the movepool is bad, it's just that it needs to wait a long time before it gets the TMs it really needs like Dark Pulse and Ice Beam. But after that, Extrasensory/Ice Beam/Surf/Dark Pulse is pretty much all you need.

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Heliolisk--B/C
Again, this is another superfast sweeper. Once again, it OHKOs or 2HKOs almost all of its opponents, so frailty isn't a huge issue. The movepool is much more of a problem with Heliolisk. I ran Thunderbolt/Surf/Dark Pulse/Focus Blast, I found Grass Knot wasn't reliably useful and was pretty redundant. It's not that this movepool is bad, it's just that it's not terribly exciting and most of these moves are covered by another pokemon on your team. Also, its begging for hyper voice or tri attack or any special normal STAB. Decent gym matchups, don't use it against Korrina, otherwise it's generally neutral against gym leaders. It solo'd Siebold of the E4 which was nice. Really one of the best in-game electric types, but fairly decent overall.

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Tyrantrum--A
This thing was awesome. Bulky, powerful, good typing, early availability, not TM dependent. SRd for a good nature, with bulldoze it even took down the rock gym. Don't use it against Korrina or Ramos, but after that point it can pretty much power through any of the next gyms by sheer muscle. Pretty much took on Team Flare by itself. Not getting Rock Slide until late in the game hurt, but Rock Tomb took care of everything anyway. Fantastic level up movepool with moves like Crunch (which has psuedo STAB), Dragon Claw, and Earthquake all available quickly. It ended up with Rock Slide/Earthquake/Dragon Claw/Crunch. Definitely a must-use pokemon.

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Hawlucha--S
My favorite pokemon of the new generation. Sick offensive typing, amazing movepool, great stats, early availability. You get this thing right before the second gym, and it immediately wreaks havoc. Takes down the second, third, and fourth gyms easily. I used it against Clemont's Magneton and Heliolisk too, Poison Jab helped make it useful against Valerie, X-Scissor helped make it useful against Olympia, and it did well against Wulfric's gym (I can't recommend using it agaisnt Wulfric himself, because Cryoganal outspeeds you and Avalugg will survive your hits). For the E4, it focused mainly on Wikstrom but it saw usefulness elsewhere too, like against Pyroar. Honestly I don't understand why people don't rate this thing higher. The level up movepool was great, it makes use out of early TMs, it's super fast and very powerful if you train it correctly, and pretty physically bulky. I got an Unburden one, and it had a nasty combo with Acrobatics. It ran X-Scissor/Fly/Hi Jump Kick/Acrobatics, but I subbed out Poison Jab for X-Scissor a lot, and I sometimes put in Roost and a few TMs into that spot. Definitely the MVP of my team.

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Aegislash--B/C
I don't get the praise on this thing. Yeah it's super powerful, yeah it pretty much wrecks anything in its way, but it was a pretty big pain in the ass. I went through the trouble to get the Dusk Stone, and that sucked. That took way too goddamn long, and unless you have someone who can give you a dusk stone through pokebank or a trade or something, it's just annoying. I also didn't think its movepool was good until I reached Dendemille town's move tutor, which definitely isn't early in the game. Before that, it had Swords Dance and Shadow Sneak (which was great, don't get me wrong) and then mostly filler. It doesn't learn any steel moves until after the Fairy gym, so that's not helpful. Its usefulness like tripled after the move tutor, it was just a pain to use bad moves until then and then to have to get the Dusk Stone. Now it uses Swords Dance/Shadow Claw/Iron Head/Sacred Sword. It's fantastic now, I just had to drag it along for some time. It's also kind of slow, and unless it OHKOs its target, the blade form is pretty weak defensively and it's gonna take a ton of damage. I don't know, it's very good, it's just not all it's cracked up to be.

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Dragalge--C/D
If this thing were faster, it'd be in such a high tier. But it's really slow, and it takes a lot of damage before it can finally move. I like its typing, poison finally became useful, and it's got a pretty nice special movepool. It ran Surf/Dragon Pulse/Thunderbolt/Sludge Bomb, which took care of pretty much anything. But just like Heliolisk, most of these moves were covered by another pokemon on my squad, and there was never really a situation where I was like "Wow I need Dragalge right now". It's not available too late, and it did well against some gyms (keep it away from electric, psychic, and ice, but use it against fairy and grass), and the E4 weren't bad, Drasna can be iffy because I usually moved last. If I were to do this over, I'd probably pick another pokemon, it's not great.



THINGS I DROPPED PARTWAY THROUGH:

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Florges--D
I really didn't like this thing. It needs to be Fairy/Grass too, that pissed me off. It relies on a weak Fairy Wind for way too long, and for most of its usage it had Fairy Wind (which became Dazzling Gleam after the fairy gym, which became moon blast when I reached the move tutor)/Magical Leaf (which became Grass Knot)/Nature Power/Wish. That's a pretty crappy moveset. It was pretty powerful and could tank a special hit or two, but it was physically frail and not terribly fast, its moves were bad, and it wasn't really useful. I dropped it right before the psychic gym.

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Gogoat--B
This was pretty average. There was nothing wrong with it, powerful enough, available early, good movepool, but there wasn't anything too exciting. I had Horn Leech/Strength/Dig/Payback, which was pretty good, if I kept it longer it would have had Horn Leech/Return/EQ/Brick Break or Rock Slide. Honestly it was a pretty good pokemon and fairly useful, would recommend.
 
Just finished pokemon X (with sawk as support), here are my nominations

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Skuntank - C Tier

Availability: Available as Stunky at route 11, before the 3rd gym; evolves into Skuntank at level 34

Stats: [104/93/67/71/61/84] Middling bulk and speed, decent attack, and poor special attack.

Typing: [Poison/Dark] Awesome typing defensively, solid typing offensively. It can hit Psychics, Ghosts, Fairies, and Grass-types super effectively, while having one weakness in ground, which is rather uncommon in-game. The big issue is hitting a majority of things neutrally.

Movepool: As stunky, it gets Thief/Payback, Hone Claws, Dig, Toxic at level-up, and venoshock. Upon Evolving into Skuntank, it gets Poison Jab and Flamethrower, which is nice. It later learns Night Slash at level 41. As the level curve gets more brutal, it is more beneficial to use payback instead of night slash, or in addition. Flamethrower/Fire Blast (teachable by TM) aren't used very often

Major Battles:

-Fighting Gym: Stunky is borderline deadweight in this gym. It can take out Mienfoo w/Toxic and venoshock while holding the eviolite though.
-Grass Gym: If you happen to have Skuntank, then it'll sweep this gym unless you get too weak for Gogoat's bulldoze. As a stunky, you'll get destroyed.
-Electric Gym: Beats Magneton. Payback will likely 2hko Emolga, but it'll probably volt switch on you.
-Fairy Gym: Sweeps. Flamethrower for a Mawile that has only dark attacks, and poison jab for the other two.
-Psychic Gym: Beats Sigilyph and Meowstic with item-boosted Payback. Slowking may cause trouble though.
-Ice Gym: Can beat anything here in a fair fight, but not exactly sweep. An item-boosted fire blast may OHKO Abomasnow though.

-Team Flare: Pretty average. It resists poison and dark, which are common STABs. It has dig or Manectics and Houndooms then alternate STABs for the other poison or dark types there. As for Lysandre, it's not good.

-Elite Four: Just going to sum it up. Skuntank's pretty bad for elite four battles because it has middling stats all around and the level curve is really tough at this point. Some notable kills are Aegislash (flamethrower and then nightslash), Scizor (heal up before your 2nd attack), and Gourgeist. I'm not sure about Mega Gardevoir, as it might have simply OHKO'ed skuntank with moonblast.

-AZ: Can beat Sigilyph, will probably get wrecked by the other two.

Additional Comments: My skuntank had a +Spe/-SpA nature, which is arguably the best to use. However, it was potentially the reason it didn't OHKO things like Abomasnow or Scizor. With a neutral nature and flame plate, it may gain that niche in doing so with fire blast.

D-tier is arguable because it can be hard to train as Stunky, and Skuntank becomes a little harder to carry towards the end of the game. It was a pretty competent fighter for the middle gyms and okay for team flare though.


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Espeon - B Tier
Availability: Available as Eevee in Route 10, and evolves after leveling up with max happiness during the DAY.

*Note: It must be caught at level 19 for it to be truly useful in-game. According to Serebii, the yellow flowers hold eevees that range from 19-20, and I believe are more common there as well.

*Another note: How I raised its happiness by giving it a vitamin from route 8, giving it a massage in Cyllage City (directly south from route 10), and rode my bike on the track in Cyllage City. It took 18~19 minutes for Eevee to reach max happiness and evolve (using a rare candy)

The bright side to its availability is that Eevee is found on the same route as the Mind plate.

Stats: [65/65/60/130/95/110] Great Speed, Exceptional Special Attack, good special defense, and bad HP/physical stats. Dedicated special sweeper

Typing: [Psychic] Everybody knows Psychic-types. They like to wreck in-game due to the huge slew of fighting types and poison types used by villains. Being weak to Bug, Ghost, and Dark is hard to deal with though.

Movepool: As previously stated, if Espeon is evolved at 20, it can learn Psybeam, which pulls you through until it learns Psychic at 37! Inbetween there, it learns Future Sight and also Morning sun. For early game filler, you have things like Return, Dig, Bite, and protect at your disposal.

Espeon gets more to play with, but it takes a while. It gets Grass knot after the grass gym, the new Dazzling Gleam after the fairy gym, calm mind after the Psychic Gym, and shadow ball unfortunately after the Psychic gym. On victory road, you come across Psyshock, which is VERY useful for the elite four.

The fun thing about depending on TMs is that you can switch moves around on Espeon for upcoming battles, such as each elite 4 member.

Major Battles:
-Rock Gym: Good for training, not great for the gym battle. It can beat Amaura, but will lose to Tyrunt if it's weakened and paralyzed previously.
-Fighting Gym: Cake
-Grass Gym: Gogoat could be an issue, especially if weakened by Acrobatics. Beats the first two easily though.
-Electric Gym: Cake, except maybe for magneton. Even then, Espeon could probably beat it with Future sight and Dig. Espeon may get beat by Heliolisk if weakened too.
-Fairy Gym: Pretty Bad matchup. Gets eaten by Mawile, would have to use Return on Mr. Mime, and Sylveon is a special tank. You might be able to beat the latter two in a fair fight though.
-Psychic Gym: It could take on Sigilyph, but Sigilyph could set up. Trips Slowking with Grass Knot, and likely gets destroyed by Meowstic (the only team member w/shadow Ball)
-Ice Gym: Espeon can only sweep if it sets up on Abomasnow, which shouldn't be too hard with Hyper potions / Morning sun. It OHKO's Abomasnow at +2, 2HKO's Cryogonal at +2, and OHKO's Avalugg at +2 (or even 1). Two things to note though: Watch out for Abomasnow's ice shard or critical hits, and you'll lose to Avalugg without a boost.

-Team Flare: Beats just about everything except for Houndoom. It has Psychic for poisons and Dazzling gleam for when Scraftys start to arrive. Lysandre's pokes commonly beat espeon though, even mienshao becomes a high enough level to outspeed Espeon.

-Elite Four: Espeon reaches the point where opponents are too high of a level to be OHKO'ing things with neutral STAB or with Off-stab SE's, and also gets OHKO'ed by anything physical. However, it's fast and can revenge-kill things you leave at ~Half HP though.

In regards to sweeping, it can likely set up against the Dragon lead and the Steel lead, as they are slower and only have special attacks. It needs many Calm Minds (3 for Druddigon, probably too many for the Steel types) to effectively OHKO everything. It can't set up against the Fire and Water trainers though.

As for the champion battle, make sure to have at least Psyshock, Dazzling Gleam, and Shadowball.

The pokemon that outsped my Espeon (or I knew will) were Pyroar, Hawlucha, Noivern, and Talonflame. Espeon gets the jump on everything else though.

-AZ: Beats Sigilyph and Torkoal, maybe not Golurk.

Additional Comments:
  • Spending 18 or so minutes riding your bike for evolution is probably annoying for some people, but depends on the player whether you'd want to do that or have another pokemon that potentially gets beat alot and drags you down as you progress. Once Eevee evolves, it's ready to rip through things, which that and late-game justifies B-tier in my honest opinion.
  • It was not until the Ice gym and onward that I wish Espeon was Delphox. Espeon performed well, but really needed that fire typing and flamethrower/psyshock for the ice gym and also for the steel type E4

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Gogoat - C Tier
Availability: Available as Skiddo on route 5, before the first gym; evolves into Gogoat at lvl 32

Stats: [123/100/62/97/81/68] Great stat total, but probably the worst stat distribution you could ask for, for in-game purposes. Bad offenses for its coverage moves, middling physical bulk, and bad speed which is very punishing late-game. Its special bulk is very helpful though. As a skiddo, its stats are average all around.

Typing: [Grass] The whole "grass sucks in-game" trend continues. Water types are only popular at Azure Bay, and gets ripped by poison, bug, fire, flying, and ice moves. Its resistance to Water and Electric are somewhat handy though.

Movepool: Early game, Skiddo gets Razor Leaf, bulldoze, and rock smash. Later, it gets seed bomb (30), Aerial Ace (tm), payback (tm) and learns some interesting moves like Bulk up, Double-edge, and the uncommon horn leech. TM-wise, it can learn Rock Slide and Earthquake, which would be great if they weren't available after the 8th gym. Then as for HMs, it gets Surf!

The other notable moves it learns is Leaf Blade at 55, and Earthquake naturally at 60. Leaf Blade is likely too hard to reach though, and EQ is available as a tm.

Major Battles:
-Rock gym: Good for training, bad for gym battle
-Fighting gym: Could beat Mienfoo w/eviolite, maybe not machoke though.
-Grass Gym: Assuming you have Gogoat, it can beat Weepinbell and Gogoat in a fair fight with aerial ace, but the enemy gogoat can slow you down with bulldoze.
*Note: If you bring in Lapras, you can lure in Grass Knot and switch Gogoat in to activate sap sipper. That attack bonus makes those two fights easier. However, just avoid jumpluff either way.
-Electric Gym: Gogoat can take thunderbolts all day and retaliate with bulldoze. However, I'd keep it away from bastard Emolga.
-Fairy Gym: Can likely beat Mawile with surf, and beat Mr. Mime with Seed bomb + great special bulk. Sylveon is a no-go unless it never uses Charm.
-Psychic Gym: Beats Slowking with Grass STAB, and Meowstic with Payback. Meowstic was KO'ed while trying to set up; however, it may be a bad idea to face it if reflect is active.
-Ice Gym: Nope

Team Flare: Not as bad as you could suspect, but still nothing special. Early game, it does well with bulldoze. Late-game, it can still beat Manectric and even houndoom when using bulldoze for the speed advantage (also is tanky enough for Flamethrower). Swalot doesn't do much other than acid spray or stockpile, the battles just take forever. It is pretty bad against other pokes though, such as Gol/Crobat. It also sucks vs. Lysandre.

Elite Four:
  • Against Steel, it can beat the first two in a fair fight with earthquake; could probably revenge-kill Aegislash too.
  • Against Dragon, it sucks
  • Against Fire, it can beat Torkoal with surf, but is deadweight against anything else.
  • Against Water, it can beat all but Gyarados. It is endangered by the Barbaracle due to being slower and hit by X-scissor, but mine survived and OHKO'ed with its STAB. Basically, it needs to be at full HP when facing Barbaracle
  • Against Diantha, it surprisingly sucks (lol)
-I think the only thing Gogoat outsped was Torkoal, although it probably could have gotten the jump on Aegislash as well.

-AZ: Beats Torkoal and Golurk; probably not Sigilyph

Additional Comments: Its stat distribution is what killed its potential in my opinion. Its offenses are too low for its over-reliance on coverage (not to mention its only special attacks available are Surf, Grass Knot, and Hidden power), its speed is too low for the ruthless level curve, and its physical bulk isn't too great.

It's early game is pretty comfortable though, as its stats are average and its weaknesses aren't as exposed. I am still thinking C-tier for that reason and its viability that remains during the later gyms.

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Aggron (X) - E Tier

Availability: available as Lairon in Route 18 and Terminus Cave (X only), after the Team Flare crusade. Evolves into Aggron after a rare candy.

Stats: [70/110/180/60/60/50] Good attack, Fantastic Defense, poor HP, and the rest is even poorer. Basically a physical tank, except easily broken down by Fighting and ground attacks.

Typing: [Steel/Rock] Pretty decent STABs for late-game, but has those horrible weaknesses to fighting and ground, plus it's neutral to special moves like Flamethrower, Energy Ball, Shadow Ball, Thunder Bolt, and more that you'll see as you progress with it. Basically, you need sturdy

Movepool: With a heart Scale, there's Iron Head. By TM, Aggron can have a number of things, including Stone Edge, Earthquake, Shadow Claw, Thunder Wave, Rock Polish, and even fire blast for Scizor. All but Stone Edge and Earthquake can be learned before the 8th gym, then the other two immediately after.

Major Battles:
-Ice Gym: Get that steel type ready, because it still loses to Abomasnow. Aggron can beat Cryogonal once it gets past confusion, and should eventually beat Avalugg, as its main offense is Crunch

-Elite Four:
  • Shuts down Talonflame against the fire trainer
  • Shuts down Aurorus
  • It could beat Gardevoir w/Sturdy if Gardevoir didn't trace that ability as well
  • Sucks against Everything else (see additonal comments)
-AZ: Who cares.

Additional Comments: This pokemon didn't live to its expectations as a rock polish sweeper for one major reason I overlooked: It lacks EV's. Aggron couldn't outspeed the fast threats with rock polish, and missed out on a TON of OHKO's, even with super-effective Stone Edge. This was good for countering a few pokemon in the elite four and spreading paralysis elsewhere, but was still too weak to be truly effective.

Comparing to the traded Bisharp, it has much less attack (especially while lacking the adamant nature Bisharp gets), an arguably worse typing, no swords dance, and less speed. Its only advantage is Sturdy+T-wave, but that's really it. E-tier worthy for me.

I think I am done with X and Y for a while. It was a good ride.
 
About the Tyrunt that was discussed earlier, I think that B-tier is good for it. It was not quite as good as the rest of my team (Fennekin, Riolu, and Bulbasaur are all tiered as A or S), but it was still pretty good.

I also think Piloswine should be A/B tier. It can evolve by level 39-40 if taught Ancient Power at the move re-learner (which you are right next to). Comes knowing Ice Fang for STAB and can be TMed Bulldoze immediately. It gets Earthquake soon (level 46). Can be taught Rock Slide or Stone Edge after the 8th gym badge for coverage, and can be taught Rock Tomb for until then. It does come after 6 gym badges, though, and lacks any attacks beond Rock/Ground/Ice/Normal, but it has great attack power and pretty good bulk to make up for it.
 
Mamoswine's typing appears to be really bad for the endgame portion of a run. Everything he can strike super-effectively with Earthquake has their own super-effective attack against either of his types (ice being the worst offender). He only handles, like, Altaria and Aurorus. Seems like a D mon if you also remember his problem with ubiquitous fighting-types.
 
Lucchini said:
Mamoswine's typing appears to be really bad for the endgame portion of a run. Everything he can strike super-effectively with Earthquake has their own super-effective attack against either of his types (ice being the worst offender). He only handles, like, Altaria and Aurorus. Seems like a D mon if you also remember his problem with ubiquitous fighting-types.
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I used it and it performed quite well (slightly better than my Tyrunt). Also, it can do well against pokemon that it has a neutral type-matchup against, and anything it outspeeds will almost never get to pull off any attacks.
 
I think it's a little hasty to say that Mamoswine only handles like Alteria and Aurorus. There's Torkoal, Barbaracle, Klefki, Probopass, Aegislash, and Tyrantrum that are begging for a STAB earthquake coming off 130 base attack. I'm sure Mamo can beat Noivern with full HP as well as Gourgeist. Noivern has an off-stab Flamethrower coming off 97 base spA. And Gourgeist can only hit his physical side, along with Torkoal's flame wheel (lol) and Barbaracle's (razor shell?).

One filler move Mamoswine can use is Protect. It is a great way to shield yourself from anything trying to High Jump Kick you (or otherwise scouting), and also a decent idea to shield yourself *when* aegislash tries to switch forms and attack you with Iron Head (then BAM EARTHQUAKE).

The real concern for Mamoswine is speed, as it may not get many speed EVs and the E4 are pretty high of a level without the EXP share. Kill all the Golbats and Crobats you can. Maybe Manectric too.

I gotta say C-tier, probably nothing higher since it comes late and may need to switch out off and on.
 
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Banryu: I addressed last update that Shedinja was a likely E-Tier. Being able to wall a few threats gives it a lot more use than something like Karrablast, who is terrible from the moment you get it & cannot take a hit to save its life (without Eviolite), or Shelmet who just sits there taking hits & dealing next to nothing in return. I get that you have to look at things, but even then, you can still set up on those that do not one-shot you.

The Sweepz: In my humble opinion, your major battles section in particular needs a lot of work, & the whole thing can be improved. It does not really convince me as to why it should be C/D-Tier. "Swalot Was A Great candidate to my team because he was taking hits and dealing em' back. oh? and that annoying florges? swalot has it under control." This does not really tell the average users how it performs when it comes to battling Gym Leaders or any other "bosses", & is very vague at best. The best I can get from reading it is that it seems to do well against Valerie, but you do not give an idea about how it fares elsewhere other than how it performed on your team. Generally for an in-game run, offence is the best defence, that is, a good offensive movepool means more than a good defensive movepool. Try to focus on offensive moves it can get through Level-up or TM (Breeding is too inefficient) during the main part of the game. Most of your other comments should be in the typing section. Basically in a general sense, that analysis needs a lot of work. It is an okay start, but it is, to put it simply, far from convincing.

Anyhow, Tiering update time folks.

Ariados: N/A -> E-Tier
Axew: N/A -> B-Tier
Banette: N/A -> E-Tier
Delibird: N/A -> E-Tier
Eevee (Sylveon): Limbo (B/C-Tier) -> C-Tier
Ekans: N/A -> E-Tier
Gligar: N/A -> E-Tier
Gothorita: N/A -> E-Tier
Illumise: N/A -> E-Tier
Liepard: N/A -> E-Tier
Mightyena: N/A -> E-Tier
Noctowl: N/A -> E-Tier
Phantump (w/o Trade): N/A -> F-Tier
Pumpkaboo (w/o Trade): N/A -> F-Tier
Shedinja: N/A -> E-Tier
Skrelp [Y]: N/A -> D-Tier
Spritzee (w/o Trade) [Y]: N/A -> E-Tier
Sudowoodo: N/A -> E-Tier
Swirlix (w/o Trade) [X]: N/A -> E-Tier
Trapinch: N/A -> C-Tier
Vanillite: N/A -> E-Tier
Volbeat: N/A -> E-Tier
Zangoose: C-Tier -> B-Tier

Like before, all tierings are provisional until this tier list is sent to C&C. If you disagree with the tiering of something in some tier, do not be afraid to speak up & say why something should be lower or higher; it will be considered. It also means you are still welcome to nominate something tiered for another tier or validate its tiering.

All those Pokémon I proposed at the bottom of the last page go into their stated tiers. Skrelp, Shedinja, & Sylveon were hinted to last update. The other changes mentioned here basically had a consensus reached to by you guys & were placed in their respective tiers.

Not much else to say, carry on as normal. I want the limbo mons to be discussed as usual though. Other than that, keep up the good work folks.

Entries Tiered: 99
 
Almost finishing my 3rd run with Sigilyph/Azumarill/Flareon/Vileplume. A pretty solid team. Azurill has already been discussed but I can write an entry about the the other 3 if everyone is ok with that. And with which one should I start?
 
About Piloswine, I doubt it could be C-tier material when it outperformed my Tyrunt (for the portion of the game I had it), and Tyrunt are B-tier.

Here are some damage calculations for how well it does against the various pokemon. Assumes level 65 for Mamoswine.
252+ SpA Noivern Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (19 IVs in both) Mamoswine: 192-226 (83.4 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- Atk (0IV)Mamoswine Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Noivern: 232-276 (113.1 - 134.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Will win if same level worst case scenario, unless IVs are bad in defenses.
Assumes 0IVs across the board for Mamoswine:
252+ SpA Altaria Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 118-141 (54.1 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- Atk Mamoswine Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Altaria: 216-256 (115.5 - 136.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Mamoswine Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Druddigon: 222-264 (75.2 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Druddigon Revenge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 248-294 (113.7 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Calcs assume perfect IVs and 252 Attack Adamant Mamoswine. Do not use, Revenge will OHKO 100% of the time (the calc assumed Revenge's power is not doubled) and you can't OHKO, even at +2, with Ice Fang.
0 Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 186-218 (86.9 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Dragalge Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 204-242 (93.5 - 111%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Although it could win, it has about a 54% chance of losing, so I would advise you to not use it. It still could be used, though, it is just a risk.
Use against one of Altaria or Noivern, but only ONE.
252+ Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Clawitzer: 133-157 (58.3 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Launcher Clawitzer Water Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 306-362 (128.5 - 152.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Do not use. You fail to OHKO and will be OHKO'd in return.
252+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 264-312 (110.9 - 131%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It outspeeds and OHKOs. Do not use.
252 SpA Starmie Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 246-290 (103.3 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Another outspeed and OHKO. Another do not use.
252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Razor Shell vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 242-288 (101.6 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Another one that outspeeds and OHKOs. Another one that you should not use against. However, it is the last of those that Siebold has. That is because this is Siebold's last.
Use would be inadvisable. However, if you use it, use it against Clawizter as it outspeeds and will 2HKO.
252 SpA Klefki Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 180-212 (75.6 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Klefki: 266-314 (130.3 - 153.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
You will take heavy damage if he attacks, but you will OHKO after he moves either way.
0- Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Probopass: 204-244 (98.5 - 117.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
In a worst-case scenario, you have almost a guaranteed OHKO. However, should you fail, you don't face much:
252+ SpA Probopass Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 186-222 (78.1 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And then you can attack again.
0- Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 84-99 (38.1 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Scizor Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 216-254 (90.7 - 106.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Scizor is outsped, but can OHKO some of the time with Iron Head. When it doesn't it can Bullet Punch next action and KO.
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mamoswine: 444-524 (159.1 - 187.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Aegislash-Shield Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mamoswine: 222-264 (79.5 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 272-324 (83.9 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
It will outspeed and OHKO with Iron Head (2HKO if in Shield Forme somehow), and, in ideal scenarios, you will rarely OHKO Blade forme.
Use against Klefki(optional, may take massive damage) and Probopass.
252 SpA Pyroar Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 20 SpD Mamoswine: 278-330 (99.6 - 118.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
0- Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Pyroar: 212-252 (102.4 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Pyroar will outspeed and usually OHKO. You OHKO in return on the 6.2% chance of surviving, though, with high defensive investment.
252+ Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Torkoal: 102-120 (29.6 - 34.8%) -- 7.5% chance to 3HKO
4+ Atk Torkoal Flame Wheel vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 228-270 (81.7 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You are not doing much. He 2HKOs.
252 SpA Chandelure Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mamoswine: 524-618 (187.8 - 221.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Do not use. You are outsped and OHKOd
252 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 230-272 (82.4 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- Atk Mamoswine Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 256-304 (129.9 - 154.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- Atk Mamoswine Smack Down vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 132-156 (67 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You will take massive damage, but will OHKO in return with Smack Down (if you factor in recoil damage from Flare Blitz)
Only use against Talonflame. Do not use against anything else.
 
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"Assume Mamoswine is level 65."

That is my first problem. I can't see any pokemon getting to 65 unless either that's the only pokemon you're training or you are using the EXP share. That will completely skew your calculations.

Secondly, the calculations. Just the fact you're doing that for determining in-game fights is downright silly. For example, you're telling me not to use Mamoswine against torkoal because a 252 hp / 252 def variant has a 7.5% chance to be 3hko'ed, when it's evident enough that the opponent's pokemon don't have EVs at all. It's also common sense that Pyroar and Chandelure will melt you with flamethrower with a Mamoswine being as high as 55.

I also find it difficult to believe that Mamoswine will be outsped by 60 base speed Aegislash and also won't be able to OHKO it while in Blade form (60/50/50 defenses). Just scout with protect, and see if he changes form or not. If he does, click earthquake.

Not that B-tier isn't worth considering (as I'm not denying that it outperformed Tyrunt), but I just think making calculations for in-game pokemon was a sheer waste of time.

Have you made it to the elite four yet? I'd rather read your actual experiences on it instead of calculations based off of outlandish assumptions.
 
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I actually beat the game with it. In most matches (all but Siebold), my Mamoswine defeated an opponent or 2, but took massive damage. I just did calcs as I beat the E4 with it over a month ago and just put them there to show that I hadn't misremembered what happened, and then provided them just as a way to show that I wasn't exaggerating what happened.

Also, my calcs were off (I accidentally did level 100 Aegislash-Blade). They are somehow very accurate against level 65 Aegislash-Shield, though. Mamoswine outspeeds, as well. 0- Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 252-296 (117.7 - 138.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I also thought that opponents did EV train their pokemon.
 
Now now, I'm sure the Elite Four Pokemon do have some EVs (since we know for sure Cooltrainers and probably Veterans have such Pokemon as well among generic trainers), we just don't know what they are exactly - IVs, natures, EVs - I don't think anybody has made any research in that regard even in the previous generations' games, which are hackable a lot easier. Why? People don't care about playing the games at the level of thought tiering discussions are interested in.

Mulan's calculations have a certain value nevertheless, as they show some close to worst case scenarios (-atk nature, 0 EVs, but there are IVs as well) and show that Piloswine is indeed likely to take an attack from Klefki or Probopass (if he does that 10 levels below the two, I'm not quite sure however). I really doubt it can absorb a Flare Blitz from Talonflame at a reasonable level, too. However, we can probably agree that the few Pokemon Piloswine does offer help with in the E4 portion of the game are all rather meek, and can be handled somewhat easily.

About Mamoswine's tiering in general and the comparison with Tyrunt in particular:
- Tyrunt exists for extra 5 gyms and as a result the party can rely on his help for a much larger portion of the game.
- This availability lead ensures Tyrunt's stats are higher as a result of the EVs gained in the process. Everything not SpA is helpful to some extent.
- Tyrunt is particularly helpful against Clemont among the gyms and Malva among the elites.

Now, Tyrunt is hardly a king of good matchups either which makes his position in B justified (could it be a tier lower? it's probably something we can still discuss). It's quite clear to me however, that Tyrunt should be at least one tier above Piloswine for the three big reasons cited above alone, as the two are qualitatively different.

I think C/D limbo is a good starting point for Piloswine. For example, how does Piloswine compare to Skrelp? Or even Pidgey (also D tier)? It's certainly worse than Tyrunt, but we're going to have to find out how much worse it is exactly.
 
Texas Cloverleaf said:
Tyrantrum - A tier

This thing would be S tier except it has a bit of a power curve in the early levels. Up until after 33/34 Tyrunt was very disappointing with its negligible bulk and poor coverage. But holy hell did Tyrantrum destroy things in the mid to late game. Outsped almost everything it faced and almost never failed to OHKO. So physically bulky it could take opposing Tyrantrum Dragon Claws and live. Fantastic mon with a few falws makes for A tier.
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Idg all the Tyrunt hate. There's been a large number of posts advocating it for A tier and people are suggesting it drop to C? It's B at the absolute worst. It had a bit of a training curve for ~8 levels and demolished the game after that point. Its power is fantastic and its gets good attacks at reasonable times to go along with its incredible bulk. I can't see it being any lower than B minimum, and imo its a clear cut A tier.
 
Mulan15262 said:
I also thought that opponents did EV train their pokemon.
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I could be wrong, but I think it's only for pokemon in the battle maison, and the other events like it.

I just don't think it's much use to make calculations, unless you do the worst case scenarios like said above, then set Mamoswine's level to 50 and 55 for inbetweens.

Edit: I didn't mean to sound harsh before. I just found it extremely unconvincing.

And I really can't argue Mamoswine vs. Tyrantrum very well in terms of in-game potential. Their power and speed are probably really close due to Tyrantrum having more EVs along the way. They both have nasty weaknesses as well as great STAB attacks (Tyrantrum effectively get STAB crunch too). I would tier Mamoswine a letter lower due to Tyrantrum being avaible much earlier.
 
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I have to say, looking over the list of untiered Pokemon and what we have now...

What the hell qualifies as S-tier and A-tier for you people? Because right now we have a dozen Pokemon in those two tiers and I think it's blatantly obvious that a large percent of the untiered Pokemon aren't these guys's betters or equals. Sure, there's a few in there that have potential (the Eeveelutions leap to mind), but not a lot.

The in-game tiers for RBY have 26 Pokemon in the High Tier (which is what I'm assuming S/A is the equivalent of), RSE have 21, FRLG 18, DP 14, Pt 17, HGSS 24, and BW 17. All of these have far fewer choices to pick from. The S and A tier seem to represent about a fifth of your choices, traditionally. That isn't the case thus far in this list, and like I said, it isn't going to get better once a few obvious things like the Eeveelutions get sorted.

I have to wonder, on the whole, if it wouldn't be so much simpler to, right now, simply assume four ranks: "Shit, Neutral, Good, Great". Because as is we seem to have people who come in and say, "No, I don't care that it has tactics for every gym in the game, you aren't given a free level 100 version of it with 6 perfect IVs from Professor Sycamore on Route 1 and therefore it's clearly C-tier at best."
 
Texas Cloverleaf said:
Idg all the Tyrunt hate. There's been a large number of posts advocating it for A tier and people are suggesting it drop to C? It's B at the absolute worst. It had a bit of a training curve for ~8 levels and demolished the game after that point. Its power is fantastic and its gets good attacks at reasonable times to go along with its incredible bulk. I can't see it being any lower than B minimum, and imo its a clear cut A tier.
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There have been all kinds of arguments for and against Tyrunt I believe. The somewhat poor gym and E4 matchups is just one of the reasons why he's not higher than he currently is.

I don't see how its bulk is "incredible" when its defensive bases are 82 / 119 / 59 as Tyrantrum (for which you have to wait until L39 - this is also around the time Piloswine shows up by the way, if anyone's still comparing these two), clearly too low on the special side. The trickiest physical enemies to face are definitely the fighting-types (since the gyms and elites are largely special-based), and Tyrantrum's poor typing prevents him from eliminating those.

71 base speed is also rather slow for a playthrough without Exp Share.

What exactly happens to Tyrunt after 8 or so levels by the way? Is it the L30 Dragon Tail that makes a difference? The Dig TM that you could get around that level?

TakatoGuil

I think there is such a large number of Pokemon in this game that the high number of tiers is justified. Also, most of the untiered Pokemon are probably not seeing A/B-tier, it seems to me.

It might not be a good idea to compare the size of this game's A tier to any other generation's High tier (some of our on-site tier lists don't feature Top at all, which I personally disagree with but there's really not much interest in discussing the old games it seems) considering S is most probably God tier, A is Top, and B would be High. The equivalent of RSE's High tier is probably all of S, A, B and maybe even C combined (iirc Whismur was in the highest tier on the RSE list).
 
Hi there, long time lurker. I actually did my Y runthrough using Meowstic(F) and Nidoking. I'll post my reviews once I have my Y game in my hands again.

I'm playing through X right now and I plan on using Swirlix and Victreebel/Vileplume at the very least. Any other suggestions?
 
orangelemur said:
Hi there, long time lurker. I actually did my Y runthrough using Meowstic(F) and Nidoking. I'll post my reviews once I have my Y game in my hands again.

I'm playing through X right now and I plan on using Swirlix and Victreebel/Vileplume at the very least. Any other suggestions?
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Houndoom perhaps? It's specific for X and hasn't had many reviews.
 
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