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Sableye [QC: 2/3]
- Thread starter Minus
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I think Confuse Ray warrants a mention, as it creates a no-risk 50/50 situation against any pokemon as a last resort. At least in OO, as it is pretty viable to allow it to stop a sweep if worst comes to worst.
All of Sableye's moves are waaaay to good for something like confusion, though, making it inferior. I'm not going to bother putting it anywhere unless someone agrees with you, Swamp Link :P
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You state Espeon can't hit Sableye for much, but Espeon sometimes carries Dazzling Gleam which does more than half to Sableye, if it's a offensive variant, or around half if it isn't. Defensive oriented Espeon makes Foul Play a 3HKO. I'm pretty sure Espeon can be considered a threat if it carries Dazzling Gleam.
So i've been using Sableye fairly extensively this gen too, and i have to say that i switched to Knock Off and never looked back. Usually, when you change moves like that, there are times when you go 'man, having that would have saved my ass' or 'i wish i still had that'. I can't remember having that feeling, like, at all.
Knock off lets it completely trash Heatran, one of its best counters. Suddenly, it's lost around 20% of its HP and it won't be recovering that back via leftovers. It also lets you get rid of Toxic Orbs, which
A:Rotom-w volt switch to gliscor/breloom is no longer guaranteed activation
B:after knock off, Aromatherapy/Heal Bell gg's the aforementioned pair
It lets you get rid of leftovers, which lets sableye have an impact, even if the other team has Heal Bell or Magic Guard pokemon. With it, Sableye is never truly useless. And of course, getting rid of special attacker's life orbs and choice specs makes it harder for them to break sableye, too.
Anyhow, Knock Off for first slash.
Knock off lets it completely trash Heatran, one of its best counters. Suddenly, it's lost around 20% of its HP and it won't be recovering that back via leftovers. It also lets you get rid of Toxic Orbs, which
A:Rotom-w volt switch to gliscor/breloom is no longer guaranteed activation
B:after knock off, Aromatherapy/Heal Bell gg's the aforementioned pair
It lets you get rid of leftovers, which lets sableye have an impact, even if the other team has Heal Bell or Magic Guard pokemon. With it, Sableye is never truly useless. And of course, getting rid of special attacker's life orbs and choice specs makes it harder for them to break sableye, too.
Anyhow, Knock Off for first slash.
I can see both sides of the argument, but Foul Play tends to hit harder. I'm going to keep it as the first slash unless some overwhelming majority disagrees with me :P
thats strange. i use showdown and i have used that set on every team i have run and i havent gotten taunted even once. put to sleep, sure but not taunted.
Of course it hits harder, that was never really up for debate; the question at hand is if that harder hitting is worth giving up the chance to strip foes of their items. I have to say that i fought a couple of heatrans on stall teams, and before i started using Knock Off...that would've been nearly GG, right there. Now? I just Knocked them off and stalled their asses out, then proceeded to win.
So, if you really consider foul play to be better, fine, but list some stuff that it does. is it getting crucial 2hitkoes, or even Ohkoes? What mons does sableye really need it for, this gen?
T.k to make a long story short that set sucks, so badly. You instantly lose to any fire-type, anything with heal bell or natural cure isn't too fussed either. Taunt smashes you too, the other side can set up hazards all over your face. Any defensive pokemon with recovery can just whale away at you, and at best it's just a stally stalemate.
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It was running from non-mega'd Zard in the first place, and zard can still just blitz it in the face and Sableye can still taunt it. Foul Play is super helpful for zard, yeah, but it's still something you should run from a lot of the time.
As for talonflame, 0 Atk Sableye Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 109-130 (36.5 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage, so it does take it pretty hard after rocks and get rid of its leftovers/offensive item. Foul Play does harder, hits more consistently, and OHKOs after rocks, but you're still not defenseless against it.
And more importantly, Sableye is a stallbreaker first and foremost in my opinion; he should be better able to do that.
So, if you really consider foul play to be better, fine, but list some stuff that it does. is it getting crucial 2hitkoes, or even Ohkoes? What mons does sableye really need it for, this gen?
T.k to make a long story short that set sucks, so badly. You instantly lose to any fire-type, anything with heal bell or natural cure isn't too fussed either. Taunt smashes you too, the other side can set up hazards all over your face. Any defensive pokemon with recovery can just whale away at you, and at best it's just a stally stalemate.
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It was running from non-mega'd Zard in the first place, and zard can still just blitz it in the face and Sableye can still taunt it. Foul Play is super helpful for zard, yeah, but it's still something you should run from a lot of the time.
As for talonflame, 0 Atk Sableye Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 109-130 (36.5 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage, so it does take it pretty hard after rocks and get rid of its leftovers/offensive item. Foul Play does harder, hits more consistently, and OHKOs after rocks, but you're still not defenseless against it.
And more importantly, Sableye is a stallbreaker first and foremost in my opinion; he should be better able to do that.
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Ran some damage calcs and was playing on Showdown, Knock-Off seems like the better choice. It allows you to cripple Cress and Heatran's only method of recovery outside of Wish. It can really piss off defensive teams...Knock-Off is gonna be the first slot then. Sableye isn't meant to to hit things, it's to cripple stuff, and Knock-Off can do that better than Foul Play
tl;dr Knock-Off is gonna be first slash
EDIT: As Alexwolf said earlier, Knock Off leaves Sableye running from Mega Zard X and Talonflame....
With Confide, you can switch Sableye out and keep its effect, but you can't do that with CM. IDK really, they do the same almost.
This looks great. I have the same question as Woodchuck, though, and even if there is some reason to use Confide over Calm Mind, neither move seems worthy of more than a brief Set Details mention.
QC APPROVED 1/3
QC APPROVED 1/3
Thanks a bunch! I'll fix it.
Confide is better, as its effect stays if Sableye switches out, which it will if a strong special attacker comes in. This way, you can make a Pokemon weak enough so that your other Pokemon can take care of it, while with Calm Mind you are stuck walling something against which you can't do nothing (Fire-type special attackers, special attackers with Sub).
Overview
Main Set
Moves
Move Calm Mind to OO, it's really bad.
Usage Tips
Team Options
This section is very lacking. You don't mention the main partners that Sableye should have, Pokemon that can take on Fairy and Fire-types. Heatran can wall Talonflame, and check Fairy-types, as well as both MEvo Char formes (though it's a shaky check to both) so it's a great teammate. Include a couple more examples.
You also mention hazard users to use alongside Sableye, but you nowhere state how Sableye can spinblock those hazards or prevent the use of Defog as long as he is in the field with priority Taunt. So, mention that Sableye can fit well on HO teams that employ suicide dual hazard leads (Deo-D and Deo-S mainly), as those kind of teams sometimes have enough offensive pressure to keep their hazards up even against Defog users, and Sableye helps even more.
Also, don't explicitly state Heal Bell support. After mentioning Blissey, just talk about how she can use Heal Bell to further assist Sableye.
Other Options
Do those and consider it
QC APPROVED 2/3
It's typing is not amazing, it's just good, so tone it down.
Main Set
Moves
Move Calm Mind to OO, it's really bad.
Usage Tips
Remove this, it's superfluous with the rest of the stuff you mention.
Team Options
This section is very lacking. You don't mention the main partners that Sableye should have, Pokemon that can take on Fairy and Fire-types. Heatran can wall Talonflame, and check Fairy-types, as well as both MEvo Char formes (though it's a shaky check to both) so it's a great teammate. Include a couple more examples.
You also mention hazard users to use alongside Sableye, but you nowhere state how Sableye can spinblock those hazards or prevent the use of Defog as long as he is in the field with priority Taunt. So, mention that Sableye can fit well on HO teams that employ suicide dual hazard leads (Deo-D and Deo-S mainly), as those kind of teams sometimes have enough offensive pressure to keep their hazards up even against Defog users, and Sableye helps even more.
Remove this, it's a bad example, and it's kinda irrelevant anyway, as Sableye can beat the majority of physical attackers that he burns, one on one.
Also, don't explicitly state Heal Bell support. After mentioning Blissey, just talk about how she can use Heal Bell to further assist Sableye.
Other Options
Remove this.
Do those and consider it
QC APPROVED 2/3
Since I was tagged yeah Confide and Calm Mind are better suited for Moves section. Confide is slightly better though since Sableye is sacrificing any potential to attack to at least make its job of stalling burn easier and makes it easier for Sableye's teammates to switch in. Otherwise Foul play and Knock Off are far more superior.
Seven Deadly Sins, this is about finished, bar some typos made in haste.
I hope it's on par with the other analyses.
I hope it's on par with the other analyses.
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