I have to agree with Quasar. I've used Rosy a couple of times on my teams and I just see him as working so well alongside Alomomola. Besides that, he gets free switch-ins on lots of neutrally effective attacks, and can set up the Spikes that she's famous for while forcing something like Seismitoad or Golem to switch out. She may not be as useful as another Spikes setter such as Scolipede overall but at being a defensive user of the move as well as a status absorber on a team with no Heal Bell (like mine) I think she is outclassed by none in the tier.
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I have to agree with Quasar. I've used Rosy a couple of times on my teams and I just see him as working so well alongside Alomomola. Besides that, he gets free switch-ins on lots of neutrally effective attacks, and can set up the Spikes that she's famous for while forcing something like Seismitoad or Golem to switch out. She may not be as useful as another Spikes setter such as Scolipede overall but at being a defensive user of the move as well as a status absorber on a team with no Heal Bell (like mine) I think she is outclassed by none in the tier.
Agree with The Quasar and Idiotesque , as Roselia is undoubtably one of the most solid Special Defensive walls, Status Absorbers, Pivots, Spikers, in the metagame. It simply is versatile, and nonetheless effective. The standard Specially Defensive set can switch into just about any Special attack, and set up spikes. Hell. It has a 32%~ chance to live a Specs Fire Blast off of Charizard. In my opinion, that is a testament to it's bulk, as even pokemon which resist it risk getting killed switching into such an attack. On top of that, the offensive pivot set is a major threat, pivoting in and out of status, while spamming Sleep Powder and a surprisingly strong Sludge Bomb. Overall, I definitely agree with the nomination for Roselia Low-A / Mid-A.
I also wish to nominate Probopass for Low-A. It is an extremely versatile Utlity Mon, Wall, and Volturner, being the only stealth rocker with access to Volt Switch in NU (Outside of the completely irrelavant Stunfisk and Nosepass). This great ability allows it to switch into things like Swellow, and with a Volt Switch slower than their U-Turn, bring momentum to your side. It is also an extremely good stealth rocker, being able to tank hits from large parts of the tier, and getting up rocks in their face. The Defensive set also acts as an extremely strong Speczard check which is a huge threat right now, being 3HKO'd, meaning it can hit back with a Power Gem / Gain Momentum with volt switch even after swtiching into a fire blast. Lastly, it's Magnet Pull set supports many of the current metagame's top sweepers extremely well, being able to trap something such as Klang or Metang, and opening giant holes for things like Jynx, one of the best pokemon in NU right now, to clean through.
I also wish to nominate Probopass for Low-A. It is an extremely versatile Utlity Mon, Wall, and Volturner, being the only stealth rocker with access to Volt Switch in NU (Outside of the completely irrelavant Stunfisk and Nosepass). This great ability allows it to switch into things like Swellow, and with a Volt Switch slower than their U-Turn, bring momentum to your side. It is also an extremely good stealth rocker, being able to tank hits from large parts of the tier, and getting up rocks in their face. The Defensive set also acts as an extremely strong Speczard check which is a huge threat right now, being 3HKO'd, meaning it can hit back with a Power Gem / Gain Momentum with volt switch even after swtiching into a fire blast. Lastly, it's Magnet Pull set supports many of the current metagame's top sweepers extremely well, being able to trap something such as Klang or Metang, and opening giant holes for things like Jynx, one of the best pokemon in NU right now, to clean through.
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Actually, something else I wanted to mention-
nominating Masquerain for Mid-D rank (or anywhere in D). After using this pokemon a lot, Masque has some small niche in being a Quiver Dancer, but in that, he seems to be outclassed by Mothim in that role, based on a very similar movepool and slightly better stats on Moth's part. I can't honestly say that the Intimidate ability has ever come in useful (Masque's only feature worth mentioning over Mothim) since there are about a half-dozen better intimidate users and Masquerain's defenses and typing are simply pathetic.
nominating Masquerain for Mid-D rank (or anywhere in D). After using this pokemon a lot, Masque has some small niche in being a Quiver Dancer, but in that, he seems to be outclassed by Mothim in that role, based on a very similar movepool and slightly better stats on Moth's part. I can't honestly say that the Intimidate ability has ever come in useful (Masque's only feature worth mentioning over Mothim) since there are about a half-dozen better intimidate users and Masquerain's defenses and typing are simply pathetic.
His "niche" is still that you can use Quiver Dance and Baton Pass, which is why Venomoth is such a big support threat in UU. Of course the difference here is that Venomoth has better typing, stats and abilities... yeah I nominated Masquerain to move down a page ago I think and it got rejected. I still don't really get it but so be it. :/
Probopass does not deserve A. he is versatile and plays a good role, but not anywhere good enough for A. he has 2 quad weaknesses which are extremely popular not to mention mold breaker sawk or something. also water types are very popular and probopass usually doesnt last all too long. volt-switch is pretty big for him, and just so you know stunfisk does not get volt-switch or else that would be more popular for sure. charizard is extremely uncommon in NU due to its rock weakness, even at that it isnt that good against zard lol look at this.
252 SpA Choice Specs Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Probopass: 129-153 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
i dont like to say the opposite of everything you said but uhhhhhh there arent any "top sweepers" that are metal type. i guess it could be good for klang but thats not that popular and metang often time run earthquake.
definitely a good answer for jynx that dont run focus blast but other than that i would definitely not say it is one of the best pokes in NU, sorry.
not saying its bad or i dont like it, i just dont agree with most of the things you said xD
Extremely uncommon in NU? It's Number 9 ffs stfu. People disregard stealth rocks because once it gets in you are guaranteed like 2-3 kills at least with SpecZard.
Either way, It attracts it's 2 Quad Weaknesses for sure. But this is why you have teammates. By the way, that Damage Calc, lets Probopass barely live 2 Hits, meaning it can switch in and take it out with Power Gem, something extremely important if you are Zard weak and don't feel like running Munchlax or Zweilous.
When I discussed "Top Sweepers" I wasn't talking about just steel types. Jynx is a major threat, SD Scolipede, Bulk Up Braviary, Swellow just to name those four, all of which whom easily are stopped by probopass. It's simply a solid check to many pokemon in the tier.
By the way Mold Breaker Banded Sawk gives just about every Stealth Rocker in NU trouble. What's your point. By this logic Golem shouldn't be A either.
Probopass as a whole is one of the best pivots and stealth rockers in NU, and in such a fast paced metagame slow switches often give you the lead. For that reason it is completely one of the Best pokes in NU.
I am really surprised that Sawk has been kept out of S rank. The definition of S Rank is this:
Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the NU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well.
For me, Sawk falls into the second category - it can perform one role extremely well. Not only is its signature Choice Band set a terrifying wallbreaker, but it is also very good at keeping hazards off the field courtesy of Mold Breaker, which can make other S-rank threats such as Jynx, Scolipede and of course Charizard even more dangerous. In fact, you could argue that, with one set, it can accomplish two roles at once (wallbreaker and anti-lead).
Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the NU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well.
For me, Sawk falls into the second category - it can perform one role extremely well. Not only is its signature Choice Band set a terrifying wallbreaker, but it is also very good at keeping hazards off the field courtesy of Mold Breaker, which can make other S-rank threats such as Jynx, Scolipede and of course Charizard even more dangerous. In fact, you could argue that, with one set, it can accomplish two roles at once (wallbreaker and anti-lead).
i nominate swalot for at least mid d, it has a rather entertaining movepool, decent 100/83/83 defences and from my experience in x/y it walls a fair bit of pokes because you can go any way with it (until pokebank comes out and earth power seismitoad starts running around but it fits well for my team, eating up all of those fighting type moves and luring e-quakes. with it's movepool, you can do many things, like annoy and force switches with yawn and encore, or be a douche and use destiny bond.
Yes it is entertaining.. So bad that it's funny! Also, Gen V NU and XY Pokebank are very different meta games. As for the moves you listed, Torkoal and jumpluff are both better users of Yawn and Encore respectively; Destiny Bond shouldn't be something which makes you choose a defensive Pokemon, as the wall/pivot is useless from there-on. Swalot would be a bad user at Encore and Destiny Bond as is -- too slow.
Nominating Vileplume for Low-B. While it does not stand out as a "Good Pokemon", it does have merits that outweigh it's cons in both its Defensive and Offensive Sets. Not only does it support a team with Sleep Powder, Aromatherapy, Toxic, and Leech Seed, but it can sponge a variety of hits. While it can be seen as a less viable version of Roselia, it has much better mixed bulk, making for a more reliable pivot, to allow you to sponge hits, get off a move or two, and switch to an appropriate check or counter, especially with it's offensive set. Also, because it has no need to use eviolite, it can run Black Sludge or a Life Orb, both of which highlight it's bulk and rather interesting 100SpecialAttack. It's typing also makes it a good grass check in the tier, and with Moonlight/Synthesis it gets reliable recovery. It can also tank at least 1 Ice Beam from Ludicolo, and OHKO back with Sludge Bomb, which is rather interesting.
TL;DR, while it is completely outclassed by Roselia as a Utility Mon, Wall, and Offensive Pivot, it's better mixed bulk separates it from the rest of the Poison/Grass brethren, allowing it to be a more reliable pivot and supporter..
Jumpluff for Top-S because <3
TL;DR, while it is completely outclassed by Roselia as a Utility Mon, Wall, and Offensive Pivot, it's better mixed bulk separates it from the rest of the Poison/Grass brethren, allowing it to be a more reliable pivot and supporter..
Jumpluff for Top-S because <3
So how does that make Vileplume Low B? You listed all of its faults, and the only good thing about it is "better mixed bulk", which Eviolite takes care of, and the ability to use Black Sludge / Life Orb, which is ok I guess. The thing is, Roselia is an excellent pivot and supporter, since it can set up either Spikes or Toxic Spikes, which are hugely valuable to a team. It even has two different methods of healing, with either Natural Cure + Rest or Synthesis. It's top C because it's an ok mon with a meh niche that's outclassed by another mon in 95% of situations.
I was also going to rant about how D-rank movement is irrelevant but my post from two months ago is still on this page so refer to that.
I'd like to nominate Braviary to move down to Low A rank. I don't deny that it's powerful and all, but the truth is all of its sets simply aren't as effective anymore. Pretty much every team has a Rock-type and a SubBU Braviary check now, and it's not like they're specifically preparing for Braviary and it doesn't hurt to add one onto a team. SubBU Braviary's claim to fame is to be able to set up on loads of things, but nowadays everyone's Stealth Rock setter prevents that. Look at all the common rock setters: Golem defeats Braviary, Regirock defeats with Toxic, Probopass uses Power Gem and Toxic, Bastiodon just Roars, Piloswine can break through subs continuously with Icicle Spear and doesn't take enough damage from +1 Brave Bird, Metang has Meteor Mash + Toxic or just Psych Up... The thing is, pretty much every team now has a check to Braviary which, I feel, has diminished its effectiveness a lot. You could argue that it's a testament to how good Braviary is, but in my opinion the fact that 90% of the metagame's teams are prepared for Braviary means its effectiveness is lost, and each time I try Braviary I question why I'm using him in the first place because with more teams being better prepared for it, a lot more support is required for it to sweep and that should bring it down a rank. As for other Braviary sets, my opinion is that while they are good, they all share a flaw: low Speed and residual damage. Choice Band Braviary is powerful, but the truth is it is forced to switch often as it is outsped, but the thing that really hurts is Brave Bird + Stealth Rock + switching a lot cuts into its survivability a lot. Choice Scarf Braviary falls in the same boat. Sure, all of these sets are deadly, but I think the fact that all of them have a huge weakness of either: being over prepared for or being worn down so easily, and that sets Braviary down to Low A in my opinion (it's not like it doesn't fit there either, look at Zangoose which sits in Low A too)
Also, if I wanted mixed bulk on a Grass/Poison-type, I'd just use Physically Defensive Roselia. The truth is that Roselia has so many great perks that are very difficult to pass up, such as Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Natural Cure.
Also, if I wanted mixed bulk on a Grass/Poison-type, I'd just use Physically Defensive Roselia. The truth is that Roselia has so many great perks that are very difficult to pass up, such as Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Natural Cure.
I agree with scorpdestroyer in moving Braviary down to Low-A. The fact is that a pokemon can only shine as well as it can when it is in a metagame that suits it, and the current NU metagame has not been kind to SubBU Braviary, who just like scorp said loses to the majority of stealth rockers. It also has a hard time beating Mandibuzz who will always break it's sub and get off toxics, as well as taunt it to oblivion, and Mush who can tank it till it dies. Those are only two examples. It is also easily revenge killed in the modern metagame, with Rotoms gaining popularity, alongside Scarf Jynx, all of whom easily kill it once it lacks a sub.
I want to move Zangoose up to Mid-A / Top-A . While it isn't versatile, the fact is that once it gets in safely, it is extremely hard to stop, acting as a sweeper and wallbreaker in one, needing very little support from teammates, and with it's amazing coverage, lacks many strong Checks and Counters. In all honesty, it is very easy to set up and sweep with, and is one of the most potent offensive threats in NU today imo.
I want to move Zangoose up to Mid-A / Top-A . While it isn't versatile, the fact is that once it gets in safely, it is extremely hard to stop, acting as a sweeper and wallbreaker in one, needing very little support from teammates, and with it's amazing coverage, lacks many strong Checks and Counters. In all honesty, it is very easy to set up and sweep with, and is one of the most potent offensive threats in NU today imo.
Cut of the first for words and your description of Zangoose, in my eyes, fits Braviary really really well, except the big difference is that Braviary can run several sets effectively. This is why Braviary should stay in Mid-A and Zangoose should stay Low-A. No doubt what Zangoose does is absolutely fantastic, but I have to say sme of the things you listed as countering Braviary (Golem, Regirock and Mandibuzz I think) can hurt Zangoose desparately, and the fact that Zangoose does have to rely on Quick Attack a lot of the time means that bulkier scarfers such as Piloswine, or strong Ghost-Type scarfers such as Haunter, have a very easy time revenge-killing Zangoose. Now look at Braviary - Braviary is counterd by the Rock-Type Pokemon who largely counter Zangoose, however Zangoose is countered by more all of the time as it can only run one set; with Braviary you don't know if it will sub and younedd to use Rock Blast or Icicle Spear or if it will predict your coming and smask you in the face with a Choice band/Choice SCarf SUperpower! Another thing that could be in Zangooses' favour is the fact that he is not actually weak to Strealth Rock whereas Braviary is, however Braviary shouldn't have to come in more than twice in a match to get some serious damage done as a Choice Band or Choice SCarf, whereas with Zangoose it is often all-or-nothing anyway.
Excuse some bad spelling or something in this post I have a small hangover.
Excuse some bad spelling or something in this post I have a small hangover.
I agree with moving Zangoose to Mid A up too. Celever, the thing about Zangoose is that it is powerful enough to pick off faster opponents while absolutely demolishing slower ones. Unlike most birds, it can and will destroy Rock- and Steel-types with Close Combat, and unlike Braviary is doesn't need to predict because Toxic Orb = Choice Band without locking in. Also, even if Zangoose predicts wrongly or is threatened, it can always switch out. On the other hand, Braviary s weak to Stealth Rock and its main STAB move causes too much recoil, meaning it really won't last long. Toxic Orb may be residual damage, but Zangoose can still switch in and out often without much downsides. I don't think having to predict which set Braviary is running is an issue, because it's not that hard to deduce whether or not it's SubBU or Choiced based on the presence of Leftovers recovery. It;s not that Braviary is not powerful, but it's just that it's either prone to residual damage or overprepared for, which means it should drop to Low A in my opinion. Meanwhile, Zangoose can deal with all sorts of threats and really the only team support is to weaken the faster opponents to the point where Quick Attack finishes them off, and removing priority users, and once these threats are gone, Zangoose becomes a really threatening opponent with power, speed, coverage, and priority.
Shame to say it, but I've got to agree. When I left BW NU at the start of October, Braviary was fantastic, and could with little support (Probopass for steels) outright sweep weakened teams if it got a free Substitute. When I returned not long ago trying out the same team, I found Braviary struggling to do the same because of the fact that mons like Golem has become more common. The metagame has also become more fast-paced, which does not work in Braviary's favor. The fact that Mandibuzz is so good now is also hindering its potential I feel, as it can come in and Taunt if you try to Bulk Up with Sub, or Toxic if try without it, and it can easily shrug of Brave Birds and Roost off the damage. I'm not an expert on NU, but I feel like I have enough experience to come with a relevant suggestion.
I also dislike Electabuzz being that low, especially after using an Expert Belt version with major success. I think it deserved at least Mid B.
Why would you use an expert belt when Eviolite is indefinitely better for bluffing the scarf set..
Either way, I agree with moving it to Mid B / Top B. With a great speed tier, solid offenses, and useable bulk it is one of the better specially offensive pokemon in the tier.
i second that many people say ebelt electabuzz but eviolite is almost the same thing and you can take some special attacks pretty decently
The extra bulk when taking a hit often reveales the non-existent Choice Scarf, which kinda fucks over the bluff. Also it nails some important 2HKO's.
MoxieInfinite I dont believe any durastic changes in terms of important KO's that Ebelt gets over standard outside of Alomomola, who is brought into 18% chance to OHKO range.
I can see the benefit, but to be completely honest when going for the bluff Eviolite far outclasses it due to the fact that it actually lets Electabuzz switch into attacks more recklessly. While that may reveal bulk, it also demonstrates reckless revenge killing, possibly bluffing a choice scarf.
I can see the benefit, but to be completely honest when going for the bluff Eviolite far outclasses it due to the fact that it actually lets Electabuzz switch into attacks more recklessly. While that may reveal bulk, it also demonstrates reckless revenge killing, possibly bluffing a choice scarf.
Can whoever keeps editing the OP with shitmons stop? The viability rankings are a legit resource and generally very helpful, but I don't want new players to doubt the credibility of this when they see Treecko or Sealeo, or worse, thinking they are actually good because they are not
edit: Mega Medicham too, that seriously takes away a lot of credibility from the rankings
Raseri remove it pls?
edit: Mega Medicham too, that seriously takes away a lot of credibility from the rankings
Raseri remove it pls?
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God new meta is going to fuck with this thread more than I did the other night.
Should be interesting to see what fills the Top S slot as the metagame evolves.
[edit] atomicllamas I fixed the spacing for u
Should be interesting to see what fills the Top S slot as the metagame evolves.
[edit] atomicllamas I fixed the spacing for u
Remove Jynx and Scolipede from the ranks please. Anyways, a few basic noms since this thread will need a lot of changes lol.
Gardevoir to somewhere in A-Rank (likely High A) because it's crazy strong and very versatile too; it was super good prior to Jynx joining and without Jynx there's nothing to compete with Gardevoir for an offensive Psychic-type. Well rounded stats aside from the bad physical bulk are neat and it has an amazing movepool with ways to fuck with all of its counters (T-bolt for Mandibuzz, WoW and D-bond for Skunk) and being a nice jack of all trades is just awesome. Trace is also an awesome ability so it can check Ludicolo and the like. This thing has a lot of qualities and without Jynx putting it in A-Rank should be a no brainer.
Sawsbuck should be higher too since now it's Speed tier is somewhat more valuable again, SD set is a boss with Normal / Grass coverage which is quite good, and Nature Power (EQ) to hit Steels such as Metang, and in general makes for a really strong offensive threat that can threaten many teams. Sap Sipper is also a cool ability to jump in on Sleep Powder, and this ability should be more relevant since Grasses should be on the rise again without Jynx and Scolipede (btw, good riddance). There's not much to say but this thing is definitely awesome.
Metang down from A because without Jynx to counter it's not that great anymore, it's weak and lacks recovery so while it's decent it's not amazing. It can still do well as a viable SR setter that can check Normal/Flying types (important as always) but it has to compete with Golem, Regirock, etc.
Also the Jynx ban makes me disagree with moving Braviary down, SubBU is bulky and it's hard to take down, and it hits hard too and has good coverage.
There are a lot of other changed needed but I'll have to test out the new Jynx/Scolipede-less meta more (although it kinda looks like Stage 8 again lol), just wanted to get what I feel are no brainers out there.
Gardevoir to somewhere in A-Rank (likely High A) because it's crazy strong and very versatile too; it was super good prior to Jynx joining and without Jynx there's nothing to compete with Gardevoir for an offensive Psychic-type. Well rounded stats aside from the bad physical bulk are neat and it has an amazing movepool with ways to fuck with all of its counters (T-bolt for Mandibuzz, WoW and D-bond for Skunk) and being a nice jack of all trades is just awesome. Trace is also an awesome ability so it can check Ludicolo and the like. This thing has a lot of qualities and without Jynx putting it in A-Rank should be a no brainer.
Sawsbuck should be higher too since now it's Speed tier is somewhat more valuable again, SD set is a boss with Normal / Grass coverage which is quite good, and Nature Power (EQ) to hit Steels such as Metang, and in general makes for a really strong offensive threat that can threaten many teams. Sap Sipper is also a cool ability to jump in on Sleep Powder, and this ability should be more relevant since Grasses should be on the rise again without Jynx and Scolipede (btw, good riddance). There's not much to say but this thing is definitely awesome.
Metang down from A because without Jynx to counter it's not that great anymore, it's weak and lacks recovery so while it's decent it's not amazing. It can still do well as a viable SR setter that can check Normal/Flying types (important as always) but it has to compete with Golem, Regirock, etc.
Also the Jynx ban makes me disagree with moving Braviary down, SubBU is bulky and it's hard to take down, and it hits hard too and has good coverage.
There are a lot of other changed needed but I'll have to test out the new Jynx/Scolipede-less meta more (although it kinda looks like Stage 8 again lol), just wanted to get what I feel are no brainers out there.