Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Edgar81539]

Why is Gourgeist Small as low as C+?

I'm nominating Gourgeist-S as B+. He's one of the fastest natural SubSeeder on game and LeechSeed/Phantom Force allows for even more healing. The typing is awesome, letting it stall out most spinners other than Ice Beam Starmie, not to mention you can use Pain Split too. It can also run a SubDisable set as effectively as Gengar and Destiny Bond if you can't get out of the way.

 

[Laurel]

Vertex

You cant make arguments "Foul Plays on the switch" well it has to predict the switch doesn't it. There is a difference between a counter and a check. It is dead weight against almost every Special Attacker that can 2HKO.

Most Aegislash I play are mixed, I go off what I see on high ladder not "usage." Before Snover got banned from RU it had like 10% usage despite being completely broken, but in 1850+ was at like 35%

To your defense Idt there is an 1850+ for move usage, but in experience most I see are mixed.

I also wasn't naming all the things it doesn't check, he said it countered two things which it doesn't counter.

Why would I say its killed by Nasty Plot Thundurus-I Tbolt if he didn't say it countered that?

 

[RotomPoison]

Wait what? Aegislash now runs Shadowball, ironhead/sacred sword, shadow sneak kings shield, with what a weakness policy? I thought the standerd and preferd set was SD King shield. Honestly I would think the King shield SD set would be rank s while the other set would be A+. SdlD king shield seems better imo. But ethier way most of its theeas are dead (Except Mandibuz unlessyou run head smash)

"Standard and prefered set" actually means nothing. SD may not be as good according to some people (it is really predictable and easy to play around if you're faster then it and can take a Sneak, which is a ton of stuff) but that does not mean it isn't usable.

tl;dr Use whatever you want and see what you think is better, but SD has major problems, and in the end isn't as good as a whole.

Vertex

You cant make arguments "Foul Plays on the switch" well it has to predict the switch doesn't it. There is a difference between a counter and a check. It is dead weight against almost every Special Attacker that can 2HKO.

Most Aegislash I play are mixed, I go off what I see on high ladder not "usage." Before Snover got banned from RU it had like 10% usage despite being completely broken, but in 1850+ was at like 35%

To your defense Idt there is an 1850+ for move usage, but in experience most I see are mixed.

I also wasn't naming all the things it doesn't check, he said it countered two things which it doesn't counter.

Why would I say its killed by Nasty Plot Thundurus-I Tbolt if he didn't say it countered that?

Mostly this, except you can.

 

[Tressed]

Vertex

You cant make arguments "Foul Plays on the switch" well it has to predict the switch doesn't it.

Just pointing out that...

Okay, so Foul Play basically removes Charizard X off your list of "Free Switch-Ins" since it can Foul Play it as it Dragon Dances.

No mentions of hitting Foul Play on the switch at all.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Laurel for most educated player 2014 fuking even Blaking Kock Chicken(BKC) pwr's and trophies cannot withstand the most strng player that is laurel, laurel 4 ubers 2013, laurel 4 NERF gen 7 Z version pokemon RBY remakes iirc tbh ffs lol idk idfk idgaf irl js tbh imo hype, better than mega luke ++ aegislash, evire rank imo 2014. laurel OP nerf pls

 

[silenced]

I don't need to make an argument I'm stating my opinion.

Do you want me to? Sableye isn't good. Mega Zard, Heatran or Talonflame (one of) are on almost every team and it gives both a free switch in. Talonflame can BB, Uturn, SD etc, Tran can rocks, Lava Plume, Zard X gets a DD.

Hard special hits knock it over like a toothpick IIRC, Specs Keldeo Hydropump after Rocks can OHKO.

You do need to make an argument if you suggest a change to a pokemon's rank. Its been stated numerous times in the thread by moderators if not in the OP itself. Clearly you are being lazy by not doing this.

But looking at your very meagre level of reasoning and previous posts, a few things. You need to ease up on the back-flip between your goodra and sableye arguments to start. You cannot just declare the metagame to be heavily in favour of physical attackers to say goodra is bad and then list a very few select number of fire types to deem sableye bad. If the metagame is so physically based as you say, sableye must being getting a good number of opportunities to be burning things with its priority will-o-wisp. There is quite the list of physical attackers that don't want to tank a burn, and a few special attackers who don't appreciate the passive damage either (rotom-W doesn't like passive damage even if it doesn't physically attack whatsoever, as an example)

Secondly, you're ignoring the priority taunt it provides. While its dangerous for sableye to stay in on said fire types, if you've been able to scout the moveset for heatran and talonflame, it is possible to risk staying in and using taunt to prevent them from setting up boosts/rocks. As for everything else that cannot at least 2HKO sableye, it can taunt and recover off any damage you throw at it, or later on due to prankster against pokemon that don't harm it as badly.

Thirdly, why the hell are you keeping sableye in on special hitters when you damn well know better that it doesn't deal with them in the slightest? Team mates exist for that reason (I also have serious doubts about specs keldeo still a thing without perma-rain giving hydro-pump the nuke power it had in 5th gen for that matter). The fact you need SR support for that to be an OHKO is still pretty damn good for a mon that has such base stats as it does.

Honestly, could you have made a more biased argument against sableye? It does its job well which is to stop support mons with taunt, cripple most physical mons with will-o-wisp, and keep itself alive through the benefit of prankster recovery. Seems B to me still.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

So, I realize how bad it'll be to be anti sableye since the only other guy in that category has no clue how to discuss things, but I don't agree with a B rating.

There's enough status absorbers, fire types, and special attackers that don't really care about WoW that that niche alone isn't really enough to be used in OU (seriously, I never know what to think when somebody uses WoW on my greninja that runs a life orb and would have been OHKO'd by pretty much any move but WoW). Thanks to taunt, it doesn't have to worry about being set up bait, but other than switching out, what can it do when a Conkeldurr or Talonflame switch in?

He's got a lot of flaws and can't always execute his strategy, so I was thinking C+/B- range, but since I have not personally used him much, I'm willing to wait on passing judgement until I hear some discussion that doesn't include people saying they don't have to back up their opinions with facts.

 

[TheTraininator]

You know, since we're talking about Sableye for B, I still don't see the reason why Klefki is hanging around in B-. Though it isn't entirely fair to compare it to Sableye due to their vastly different movepools and typing, I still feel that Klefki makes more of an impact in every battle than Sableye does, because as effective as Sableye is at what it does, there are still battles where it doesn't manage to achieve anything, whereas there is rarely a battle in which Klefki doesn't prove invaluable. Prankster Dual Screens and Spikes can be comparable to Deoxys-S level of efficiency in helping teammates, and priority Thunder Wave can cripple a lot of things similar to Sableye's Will-O-Wisp. Honestly, considering how helpful Klefki is in every single match it is in, and how versatile the support that it provides can be, I honestly believe it should be moved all the way up to B+.

 

[Prosecutor Godot]

Just because Sableye can't take on offensive fire types doesn't mean it isn't great. It can easily come in on practically any physical setup sweeper as they try to set up and force them out, Mega-Lucario, Garchomp, Excadrill, Scizor, etc. They go for a substitute first? They get taunted and can't set up. Sableye can't break through special attackers? Sure, but taking Life Orb and burn damage every single attack still isn't very nice to have to worry about, it's incorrect to say that burning a special attacker is completely useless. I also wouldn't say that forcing Talonflame/Megazard in is such a bad thing either. If anything, every team should have a solid answer to those two anyway, and because of their Stealth Rock weaknesses they can't switch in as much as they'd like to absorb every single burn attempt anyway.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

With this line in the B-Rank description, how is saying that "Sableye allows some dangerous sweepers to come in and set up" justification to keep it out of B-Rank, when the same justification is right in the description? While I guess it COULD be argued that one niche alone isn't enough to justify a B-Rank, Prankster Taunt also cockblocks HO leads that don't bother to run an attacking move as well as all sorts of Stallmons like Ferrothorn, Hippowdon and the pink blobs.

On a side note, I also think that Porygon2 can perform well in the current metagame to deserve a ranking somewhere, but because it lacks a preview I won't add anything more about it at the moment.

 

[Laurel]

This was the original post by Prosecutor Godot

I think Sableye should be added to B rank

Sableye checks so many things right now like Mega-Lucario, Excadrill, SD Aegislash and also has prankster Taunt which is incredibly useful and shuts down Skarmory and Ferrothorn easily. Right now Will-O-Wisp has become one of the most popular moves in the metagame, and Sableye is one of the best users of it

----

While I agree that Sableye checks many things in the metagame it is nowhere near B rank.

The OP says

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

----

Sableye has an extremely small niche that it is the only thing you'd ever use for priority will-o-wisp and that it has prankster taunt. There are better options for prankster taunt like Thundurus-I, which also has sweeping potential and priority thunder wave. As far as things to burn with, Trevenant, and Gourgeist-XL, are both ghosts with much better defensive stats, and much more versatile move pools. Rotom-W is arguably the best pivot pokemon in the game right now and has not only will-o-wisp, but great stab options, and volt switch to grab momentum for your team.

Sableye has extremely pitiful defenses, 50/75/65, that is honestly pathetic. The only move you'd ever consider switching it in on is a fighting move from a physical pokemon or a wall. While I would agree on paper priority will-o-wisp is really good in practice it is not. Sableye struggles to switch into anything, and it's better niche would be breaking stall with priority taunt, but there are much better pokemon for this such as Thundurus-I, and pokemon like NP Mega Lucario who run right through stall regardless. Yeah, Sableye can burn Excadrill, but Excadrill hits it on the switch in for 50% + with an earthquake, and once it comes in, the Excadrill trainer switches out to his or her burn fodder / special attacker.

Yes, as I stated there are plenty of physical attackers that it can burn, but how many of them can Sableye switch into? After SR, Pin Missile from Mega Heracross easily KOs, I see your point that priority burn is good, but it can't switch into anything to burn it. The more I think about it the more Sableye doesn't even deserve C rank. Atleast last generation it had an added niche that it blocked Rapin Spin, but most people use defog now, and in my opinion, the best spinner, Mega Blastoise, 2 shots it with Water Pulse easily.

In conclusion, sure nothing enjoys a burn, but Sableye doesn't have many opportunities to switch into it to burn it. Don't get me wrong, Sableye is one of my favorite pokemon to use in UU last generation, because I will admit, priority burn is pretty cool, but OU is filled with too many threats for me to ever consider Sableye, because most of those pokemon, have attack and special attack stats that are almost double Sableyes. In contrast, in UU in gen 5, the best pokemon were fighting types, Mienshao, Heracross, Machamp, Scrafty, and Sableye did a great job coming in and burning them. In XY OU, however, the only physical fighting mons that don't enjoy a burn are Mega Heracross, Terrakion, and Mega Medicham, who all get under 4% usage.

I'm sorry that you disagree with my opinion friend, but Sableyes defenses are simply too bad to ever consider it for B rank, despite it's fantastic priority will-o-wisp and taunt. [=

 

[Ruffles]

Just because Sableye can't take on offensive fire types doesn't mean it isn't great. It can easily come in on practically any physical setup sweeper as they try to set up and force them out, Mega-Lucario, Garchomp, Excadrill, Scizor, etc. They go for a substitute first? They get taunted and can't set up. Sableye can't break through special attackers? Sure, but taking Life Orb and burn damage every single attack still isn't very nice to have to worry about, it's incorrect to say that burning a special attacker is completely useless. I also wouldn't say that forcing Talonflame/Megazard in is such a bad thing either. If anything, every team should have a solid answer to those two anyway, and because of their Stealth Rock weaknesses they can't switch in as much as they'd like to absorb every single burn attempt anyway.



With this line in the B-Rank description, how is saying that "Sableye allows some dangerous sweepers to come in and set up" justification to keep it out of B-Rank, when the same justification is right in the description? While I guess it COULD be argued that one niche alone isn't enough to justify a B-Rank, Prankster Taunt also cockblocks HO leads that don't bother to run an attacking move as well as all sorts of Stallmons like Ferrothorn, Hippowdon and the pink blobs.

On a side note, I also think that Porygon2 can perform well in the current metagame to deserve a ranking somewhere, but because it lacks a preview I won't add anything more about it at the moment.

I agree about Sabeleye, but for Porygon2:

Now I know Porygon 2 has a new niche: better abilities in gen 6 to trace (Aerilate, Protean, Pixilate, Bulletproof, Gooey, Regrigerate, Parental Bond, etc.) BUT, with knock off being literally everywhere (Not exaggerating, any that can learn Knock off, including Meinshao, Mega Venosaur, and Cincinno are carrying Knock off) I believe, Porygon2, Dusclops, and Chansey, are crippled ten times easier than last gen.

 

[AOPSUser]

I agree about Sabeleye, but for Porygon2:

Now I know Porygon 2 has a new niche: better abilities in gen 6 to trace (Aerilate, Protean, Pixilate, Bulletproof, Gooey, Regrigerate, Parental Bond, etc.) BUT, with knock off being literally everywhere (Not exaggerating, any that can learn Knock off, including Meinshao, Mega Venosaur, and Cincinno are carrying Knock off) I believe, Porygon2, Dusclops, and Chansey, are crippled ten times easier than last gen.

I believe you are mistaking the OU metagame with LC.

Only Pokemon that need the coverage or are taking a disruptive role use Knock Off. Conkeldurr and Mienshao use it for coverage. Tangrowth and Shuckle use it for utility. Bisharp uses it as a STAB option. There is literally nothing else I have seen in OU run Knock Off. Cinccino is better off running multi-hit moves with Skill Link. Mega Venusaur has better things to be doing, such as Leech Seeding everything and walling everything.

It's not that easy to cripple a Porygon2, especially a well-played one. It should at least be on the rankings somewhere, as it is one of the best Trick Room Pokemon in the tier. I'd even put it as high as B or B- Rank, because it can cripple opponents with status, Trace abilities, hit decently hard with either Download or Analytic, and can take plenty of hits.

 

[JustLetMePlay]

I believe you are mistaking the OU metagame with LC.

Only Pokemon that need the coverage or are taking a disruptive role use Knock Off. Conkeldurr and Mienshao use it for coverage. Tangrowth and Shuckle use it for utility. Bisharp uses it as a STAB option. There is literally nothing else I have seen in OU run Knock Off. Cinccino is better off running multi-hit moves with Skill Link. Mega Venusaur has better things to be doing, such as Leech Seeding everything and walling everything.

It's not that easy to cripple a Porygon2, especially a well-played one. It should at least be on the rankings somewhere, as it is one of the best Trick Room Pokemon in the tier. I'd even put it as high as B or B- Rank, because it can cripple opponents with status, Trace abilities, hit decently hard with either Download or Analytic, and can take plenty of hits.

Lando-T is a great Knock off user as well, let's not forget that.

 

[Prosecutor Godot]

This was the original post by Prosecutor Godot

I think Sableye should be added to B rank

Sableye checks so many things right now like Mega-Lucario, Excadrill, SD Aegislash and also has prankster Taunt which is incredibly useful and shuts down Skarmory and Ferrothorn easily. Right now Will-O-Wisp has become one of the most popular moves in the metagame, and Sableye is one of the best users of it

----

While I agree that Sableye checks many things in the metagame it is nowhere near B rank.

The OP says

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
----

Sableye has an extremely small niche that it is the only thing you'd ever use for priority will-o-wisp and that it has prankster taunt. There are better options for prankster taunt like Thundurus-I, which also has sweeping potential and priority thunder wave. As far as things to burn with, Trevenant, and Gourgeist-XL, are both ghosts with much better defensive stats, and much more versatile move pools. Rotom-W is arguably the best pivot pokemon in the game right now and has not only will-o-wisp, but great stab options, and volt switch to grab momentum for your team.

Sableye has extremely pitiful defenses, 50/75/65, that is honestly pathetic. The only move you'd ever consider switching it in on is a fighting move from a physical pokemon or a wall. While I would agree on paper priority will-o-wisp is really good in practice it is not. Sableye struggles to switch into anything, and it's better niche would be breaking stall with priority taunt, but there are much better pokemon for this such as Thundurus-I, and pokemon like NP Mega Lucario who run right through stall regardless. Yeah, Sableye can burn Excadrill, but Excadrill hits it on the switch in for 50% + with an earthquake, and once it comes in, the Excadrill trainer switches out to his or her burn fodder / special attacker.

Yes, as I stated there are plenty of physical attackers that it can burn, but how many of them can Sableye switch into? After SR, Pin Missile from Mega Heracross easily KOs, I see your point that priority burn is good, but it can't switch into anything to burn it. The more I think about it the more Sableye doesn't even deserve C rank. Atleast last generation it had an added niche that it blocked Rapin Spin, but most people use defog now, and in my opinion, the best spinner, Mega Blastoise, 2 shots it with Water Pulse easily.

Being frail is not a good reason to keep a perfectly viable pokemon off of the rankings like you're trying to suggest. I've used Sableye on my team for a long while and I've always been able to switch in Sableye plenty of times a battle, and it's often one of the last teammates to faint when I lose. You made this post as if every single offensive pokemon will do an attack that KOs every turn. Yes, Sableye can't switch in on specially offensive mons. It's a flaw, every B-Rank mon has them; it's why they're not A-Rank. Sableye's role isn't to wall Special Attackers. It's role is to neuter physical threats and break stall. Sableye has access to reliable recovery in Prankster Recover, and as already established, Will-O-Wisp. That actually gives it better survivability than Thundurus-I with it's frailness and SR weakness. Trevenant exists and knows Will-O-Wisp, yes. However Trevenant cannot switch into ANY Aegislash, minds being burnt more than Sableye does and lacks reliable recovery (Leech Seed, Horn Leech and Pain Split aren't "reliable") as well as Taunt so Ferrothorn is able to set up hazards on it to it's heart content. I'm not saying Trevenant is bad, it's actually really good but there are plenty of reasons to use Sableye over Trevenant.

I've had battles won with Sableye when my opponent still had 4 mons left, because every single pokemon they had left couldn't get through Sableye. You're way underestimating it.

@Professional: I only used Porygon2 on a bulky offensive team I was trying a little bit ago, and I felt like the XY metagame benefited it a lot better than BW did. I agree constantly getting my Eviolite Knocked Off was annoying, so I'd say Porygon2 would belong in the C-Ranks if at all.

AOPSUser: Mandibuzz and Tentacruel also use Knock Off often.

 

[Laurel]

Being frail is not a good reason to keep a perfectly viable pokemon off of the rankings like you're trying to suggest. I've used Sableye on my team for a long while and I've always been able to switch in Sableye plenty of times a battle, and it's often one of the last teammates to faint when I lose. You made this post as if every single offensive pokemon will do an attack that KOs every turn. Yes, Sableye can't switch in on specially offensive mons. It's a flaw, every B-Rank mon has them; it's why they're not A-Rank. Sableye's role isn't to wall Special Attackers. It's role is to neuter physical threats and break stall. Sableye has access to reliable recovery in Prankster Recover, and as already established, Will-O-Wisp. That actually gives it better survivability than Thundurus-I with it's frailness and SR weakness. Trevenant exists and knows Will-O-Wisp, yes. However Trevenant cannot switch into ANY Aegislash, minds being burnt more than Sableye does and lacks reliable recovery (Leech Seed, Horn Leech and Pain Split aren't "reliable") as well as Taunt so Ferrothorn is able to set up hazards on it to it's heart content. I'm not saying Trevenant is bad, it's actually really good but there are plenty of reasons to use Sableye over Trevenant.

I've had battles won with Sableye when my opponent still had 4 mons left, because every single pokemon they had left couldn't get through Sableye. You're way underestimating it.

@Professional: I only used Porygon2 on a bulky offensive team I was trying a little bit ago, and I felt like the XY metagame benefited it a lot better than BW did. I agree constantly getting my Eviolite Knocked Off was annoying, so I'd say Porygon2 would belong in the C-Ranks if at all.

AOPSUser: Mandibuzz and Tentacruel also use Knock Off often.

I'm not even going to argue anymore. My point still stands. B-rank has small problems not huge problems. You're trying to argue Sableye is as viable as Mega Manectric. It cannot switch into any of the pokemon you say it walls (even the physical ones), its only niche is breaking stall, and there are plenty of better options.

252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Sableye: 227-269 (74.67 - 88.48%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Nice and clean Excadrill switch in.

 

[Prosecutor Godot]

I'm not even going to argue anymore. My point still stands. B-rank has small problems not huge problems. You're trying to argue Sableye is as viable as Mega Manectric. It cannot switch into any of the pokemon you say it walls (even the physical ones), its only niche is breaking stall, and there are plenty of better options.

252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Sableye: 227-269 (74.67 - 88.48%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Nice and clean Excadrill switch in.

if anything, the fact that Sableye can even live a LO EQ from Excadrill without a resist shows how much you're underestimating Sableye's ability to switch in on attacks. LO excadrill hits pretty damn hard in the first place, it's excadrill.

if someone has a sableye it's impossible for their opponent to sweep with their physical sweeper apart from MegaZard-X, BD Azumarill and maybe SD Mega-Scizor's BP can OHKO at +2 because Sableye can just come in after a single KO and force them out. are you seriously going to argue that this doesn't deserve a ranking? B or C, I don't know, but you said it shouldn't be ranked at all.

 

[Ruffles]

I believe you are mistaking the OU metagame with LC.

Only Pokemon that need the coverage or are taking a disruptive role use Knock Off. Conkeldurr and Mienshao use it for coverage. Tangrowth and Shuckle use it for utility. Bisharp uses it as a STAB option. There is literally nothing else I have seen in OU run Knock Off. Cinccino is better off running multi-hit moves with Skill Link. Mega Venusaur has better things to be doing, such as Leech Seeding everything and walling everything.

It's not that easy to cripple a Porygon2, especially a well-played one. It should at least be on the rankings somewhere, as it is one of the best Trick Room Pokemon in the tier. I'd even put it as high as B or B- Rank, because it can cripple opponents with status, Trace abilities, hit decently hard with either Download or Analytic, and can take plenty of hits.

Cincinno gets only 3 moves that are multiple hitting, so a Knock off would be falling under coverage.

other than that, you are right, but you are forgetting how vast each reason to carry Knock off is, for example, for utility, there is Mandibuzz, Tangrowth, Shuckle, Tentacruel, Lando-T, Suicide lead Mamo, Azumarill (I have seen it), Clefabe, Mega Bannette, Sabaleye, Donphan, Reuniclus, Deoxys-S, and Deoxys-D (I have also, without exaggeration, seen it on a variant of a bulky prankster crippler Thundurus-I), and actually more viable mons do use it. For coverage, there is Toxicroak, Heracross, Escavalier, Machamp, Mega Pinsir, Ambipom, Blaziken, Mega Mawile, and Conkeldurr. For STAB, there is Krookodile, Zoroark, Scrafty, Weavile, Mega Absol, and Crawdunt.

And still I believe there is more, I tried to mention only some-what viable pokes in gen 6 (Except Machamp maybe lol)

 

[King]

So how about deo-s in UU...

 

[Vryheid]

Sableye has an extremely small niche that it is the only thing you'd ever use for priority will-o-wisp and that it has prankster taunt.

A small niche? Priority brave bird is a "small niche", but that doesn't stop people from using Talonflame. Prankster Taunt/Recover mixxed with a status move may be "small", but goddamn is it devastating against bulky offense and stall teams. I dread breaking through this thing more than Klefki simply because it has reliable recovery.

This is a bit of an off-beat comparison, but Tomohawk is considered the best Pokemon in the CAP meta not because of it's typing or movepool (which is already amazing), but how ridiculously good those Prankster Taunt/Roost sets it can abuse are. If Sableye had something like 20 more BST in every stat it would probably be S-tier. Even with the mediocre stats it has I think you severely underestimate what it can do.

 

[Monte Cristo]

A small niche? Priority brave bird is a "small niche", but that doesn't stop people from using Talonflame. Prankster Taunt/Recover mixxed with a status move may be "small", but goddamn is it devastating against bulky offense and stall teams. I dread breaking through this thing more than Klefki simply because it has reliable recovery.

This is a bit of an off-beat comparison, but Tomohawk is considered the best Pokemon in the CAP meta not because of it's typing or movepool (which is already amazing), but how ridiculously good those Prankster Taunt/Roost sets it can abuse are. If Sableye had something like 20 more BST in every stat it would probably be S-tier. Even with the mediocre stats it has I think you severely underestimate what it can do.

js priority brave bird isn't a 'small niche', it's one of the biggest, greatest and most powerful niches to exist in any OU metagame

 

[Josh Morales]

I am putting Mega Abomasnow up for nomination as a B rank.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

Mega Abomasnow can very well perform a niche as a mixed attacking wallbreaker and bulky attacker. It has many great tools it can use to aid Mega Abomasnow for accomplishing this role, such as great mixed attacking stats, a great dual STAB combination that hits 6 types super effectively and most of them are common typings, great bulk, and STAB priority to help bypass its aweful speed. However, Mega Abomasnow does have a few drawbacks that really set it back from being in the higher ranks. For a bulky attacker, Mega Abomasnow has a horrific defensive typing and although he can force many switches, he can't switch into many common attacking types. Mega Abomasnow is slow as molasses too, but given his role, it generally doesn't hurt to much and it has access to STAB priority as well. Lastly, Mega Abomasnow suffers from severe four move slot syndrome, meaning it practically chooses its checks and counters depending on what moves you choose. It is a bad thing, considering it means that you can never reach your fullest potential, but it's not exactly a bad thing as it means Mega Abomasnow is very versatile and flexible. Mega Abomasnow, however, does tend to be partially outclassed by pokemon of the higher ranks that share the similar roles on a team such as, Mixed MegaChomp, Mega Medicham, Mega Mawile, Kyurem-B, Mega ZardY, Azumarill, and Conkeldurr. As you can see, Mega Abomasnow fits very well in the B tier, in my opinion.

I am also putting Mega Aggron up for nomination as a B+ rank.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

Mega Aggron has a niche as one of the best physical tanks in the game and an extremely reliable Stealth Rock setter as well. Mega Aggron is the physically bulkiest pokemon in the game, has a great defensive typing with many resistances, a great defensive ability, and a very high base attack stat of 140 as well, that lets it retaliate with very strong hits after sponging a physical attack(even a super effective one) with ease. Unfortunately, Mega Aggron's typing leaves it weak to many common attacking types, and although its ability partially makes up for it, it is a large hindrance, considering the fact that Mega Aggron also has absolutely no recovery at all. Mega Aggron has a rather mediocre Special Defense too. With maximum Special Defense investment, you can take one or maybe two special hits, but not very well and this is a huge hindrance because you have no recovery, so what health is lost stays lost, unless you have a cleric such as sylveon on your team. Because of Mega Aggron's mediocre Special Defense, there are times when you are used as setup bait for dangerous sweepers such as Volcarona or Special Mega Lucario as well. Despite its weaknesses, Mega Aggron is still an absolutely incredible pokemon at what it does and definately deserves at least a B+ rank, only to be partially outclassed by the pokemon of similar roles in higher ranks that are blessed with means of recovery. Otherwise, Mega Aggrons tanking capabilities are unrivaled by the mostly entire metagame, with the disadvantage of no recovery, and I feel that qualifies for at least a B+, imo.

TL;DR
Mega Abomasnow - B
Mega Aggron - B+

 

[Ruffles]

I am putting Mega Abomasnow up for nomination as a B rank.



Mega Abomasnow can very well perform a niche as a mixed attacking wallbreaker and bulky attacker. It has many great tools it can use to aid Mega Abomasnow for accomplishing this role, such as great mixed attacking stats, a great dual STAB combination that hits 6 types super effectively and most of them are common typings, great bulk, and STAB priority to help bypass its aweful speed. However, Mega Abomasnow does have a few drawbacks that really set it back from being in the higher ranks. For a bulky attacker, Mega Abomasnow has a horrific defensive typing and although he can force many switches, he can't switch into many common attacking types. Mega Abomasnow is slow as molasses too, but given his role, it generally doesn't hurt to much and it has access to STAB priority as well. Lastly, Mega Abomasnow suffers from severe four move slot syndrome, meaning it practically chooses its checks and counters depending on what moves you choose. It is a bad thing, considering it means that you can never reach your fullest potential, but it's not exactly a bad thing as it means Mega Abomasnow is very versatile and flexible. Mega Abomasnow, however, does tend to be partially outclassed by pokemon of the higher ranks that share the similar roles on a team such as, Mixed MegaChomp, Mega Medicham, Mega Mawile, Kyurem-B, Mega ZardY, Azumarill, and Conkeldurr. As you can see, Mega Abomasnow fits very well in the B tier, in my opinion.

I am also putting Mega Aggron up for nomination as a B+ rank.



Mega Aggron a niche as one of the best physical tanks in the game and an extremely reliable Stealth Rock setter as well. Mega Aggron is the physically bulkiest pokemon in the game, has a great defensive typing with many resistances, a great defensive ability, and a very high base attack stat of 140 as well, that lets it retaliate with very strong hits after sponging a physical attack(even a super effective one) with ease. Unfortunately, Mega Aggron's typing leaves it weak to many common attacking types, and although its ability partially makes up for it, it is a large hindrance, considering the fact that Mega Aggron also has absolutely no recovery at all. Mega Aggron has a rather mediocre Special Defense too. With maximum Special Defense investment, you can take one or maybe two special hits, but not very well and this is a huge hindrance because you have no recovery, so what health is lost stays lost, unless you have a cleric such as sylveon on your team. Because of Mega Aggron's mediocre Special Defense, there are times when you are used as setup bait for dangerous sweepers such as Volcarona or Special Mega Lucario as well. Despite its weaknesses, Mega Aggron is still an absolutely incredible pokemon at what it does and definately deserves at least a B+ rank, only to be partially outclassed by the pokemon of similar roles in higher ranks that are blessed with means of recovery. Otherwise, Mega Aggrons tanking capabilities are unrivaled by the mostly entire metagame, with the disadvantage of no recovery, and I feel that qualifies for at least a B+, imo.

TL;DR
Mega Abomasnow - B
Mega Aggron - B+

For Mega Abomasnow:

I agree, mega Abomasnow has powerful priority coming off from 130 base attack, furthermore can use a 110 base power STAB move that doesn't even check accuracy (Unlike Boomburst, it hits some types super effectively and nothing is immune to it, plus it has a secondary effect), that with Energy Ball and Focus Blast can get a good amount of the meta-game super effectively, but I believe you missed one point: because Mega Abomasnow forces many switches, it can run Sub + 3 attacks. 4MSS might stop it, but it is worth it with that speed and bulk.

For Mega Aggron:

Mega Aggron does have RestTalk to heal up, but it suffers from 4MSS that it can't afford that 60% of the times, you forgot to also mention that his 140 Base Attack combined with the huge weight gives his Heavy Slam, with no investment in attack, good amount of damage:

0 Atk Mega Aggron Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 208-246 (68.8 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Mega Aggron Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 120-141 (41.9 - 49.3%) -- 85.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (If type doesn't change)
0 Atk Mega Aggron Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 492-578 (174.4 - 204.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Mega Aggron Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 189-223 (62.5 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Mega Aggron Heavy Slam (40 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 108-128 (26.7 - 31.6%) -- 44.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Mega Aggron Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 189-223 (59 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Mega Aggron Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam: 246-289 (97.6 - 114.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Mega Aggron Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 262-309 (96.3 - 113.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Mega Aggron Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 229-270 (32.5 - 38.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Mega Aggron Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 313-370 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Mega Aggron Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Umbreon: 160-189 (40.6 - 47.9%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Mega Aggron Heavy Slam (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Salamence: 154-183 (46.5 - 55.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Mega Aggron Heavy Slam (100 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 151-178 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- 27.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock


However there is one problem: Putting it B+ means that it's as good as walling as Skarmory, which is wrong b/c Skarmory, doesn't do as much w/ BB, but has access to healing moves such as Roost, so I'd say B or B- at the very least.

 

[Josh Morales]

because Mega Abomasnow forces many switches, it can run Sub + 3 attacks.

...what makes you think I didn't take that into account. That's the only way I ever use Mega Abomasnow...

And I'm not a fan of Rest Talk Mega Aggron. I think it has better things to be doing. That's just my opinion though.

Putting it B+ means that it's as good as walling as Skarmory

You're missing something here, you see, Mega Aggron isn't necessarily a wall, but a tank. In fact, it's pretty much the physical Goodra, who is also a B+. Mega Aggron pretty much outclasses Goodra, but it take up the Mega slot.

 

[AOPSUser]

Cincinno gets only 3 moves that are multiple hitting, so a Knock off would be falling under coverage.

other than that, you are right, but you are forgetting how vast each reason to carry Knock off is, for example, for utility, there is Mandibuzz, Tangrowth, Shuckle, Tentacruel, Lando-T, Suicide lead Mamo, Azumarill (I have seen it), Clefabe, Mega Bannette, Sabaleye, Donphan, Reuniclus, Deoxys-S, and Deoxys-D (I have also, without exaggeration, seen it on a variant of a bulky prankster crippler Thundurus-I), and actually more viable mons do use it. For coverage, there is Toxicroak, Heracross, Escavalier, Machamp, Mega Pinsir, Ambipom, Blaziken, Mega Mawile, and Conkeldurr. For STAB, there is Krookodile, Zoroark, Scrafty, Weavile, Mega Absol, and Crawdunt.

And still I believe there is more, I tried to mention only some-what viable pokes in gen 6 (Except Machamp maybe lol)

Cincinno is not OU-viable and if anyone is crazy enough to use it, they are going to use U-Turn in that fourth slot.

Tentacruel, Landorus-T, Mamoswine, non-AV Azumarill, Clefable, Banette, Reuniclus, and Deoxys do not have the moveslots to use it either.

Toxicroak and Mega Mawile prefer Sucker Punch. Heracross and Mega Pinsir never run Dark-type coverage. Ambipom is not OU-viable, Blaziken is Uber. Mega Absol really, really wants Sucker Punch as well.

They could potentially have some reason to use Knock Off, but most of the time they are not seen using it, and the users of Knock Off are not nearly widespread enough to cause Poryon2 that much grief that its role is very compromised.

Also I think you missed Gliscor, which I've actually seen more Knock Off variants of than Deoxys-S.

 

[acestriker19]

I am putting Mega Abomasnow up for nomination as a B rank.



Mega Abomasnow can very well perform a niche as a mixed attacking wallbreaker and bulky attacker. It has many great tools it can use to aid Mega Abomasnow for accomplishing this role, such as great mixed attacking stats, a great dual STAB combination that hits 6 types super effectively and most of them are common typings, great bulk, and STAB priority to help bypass its aweful speed. However, Mega Abomasnow does have a few drawbacks that really set it back from being in the higher ranks. For a bulky attacker, Mega Abomasnow has a horrific defensive typing and although he can force many switches, he can't switch into many common attacking types. Mega Abomasnow is slow as molasses too, but given his role, it generally doesn't hurt to much and it has access to STAB priority as well. Lastly, Mega Abomasnow suffers from severe four move slot syndrome, meaning it practically chooses its checks and counters depending on what moves you choose. It is a bad thing, considering it means that you can never reach your fullest potential, but it's not exactly a bad thing as it means Mega Abomasnow is very versatile and flexible. Mega Abomasnow, however, does tend to be partially outclassed by pokemon of the higher ranks that share the similar roles on a team such as, Mixed MegaChomp, Mega Medicham, Mega Mawile, Kyurem-B, Mega ZardY, Azumarill, and Conkeldurr. As you can see, Mega Abomasnow fits very well in the B tier, in my opinion.

I'm going to have to disagree about Mega Obamasnow because of his poor defensive typing combined with 4mss makes him unable to preform as a mixed wallbreaker as well as other pokemon. While Obamasnow can operate well under certain conditions its mixed attcking stats of 132/132 make him subpar at really attacking compared to other wallbreakers. As a mixed attacker Obamas movepool is really underwhelming with no dark type moves. None at all. His best set of EQ, Blizzard, Wood Hammer/Giga drain isn't bad though. Hes definately a C because he requires a LOT of support. With Abomasnow you need to have someone to take 4x fire moves probably a flash fire user right? Oh wait now you have 2 mons who are weak to Stealth Rock so now you need a defogger or spinner. He can be a very useful wallbreaker but I feel he's too conditional and requires you to either base your team around him (probably using trick room) or eliminate all the mons that threaten it out. Abomasnow also gets outclassed by especially by the underrated eelektross who has better typing (no weaknesses with its ability) and doesn't require a lot of support, has a great mixed movepool and when life orbed has about slightly greater attack and special attack to abomasnow with a slight decrease in bulk.

Also I think you missed Gliscor, which I've actually seen more Knock Off variants of than Deoxys-S.

Oh lol, Porygon2 tracing poison heal is the ultimate Gliscor toxic stall counter. I guess I'm gonna have to be more careful :(.