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Pokémon Greninja

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Magicfire said:
You can't just be like "Oh Hydro Pump and Surf are the same on stuff weak to Water!" The thing is, Hydro Pump does more damage on target neutral to Water as well. I feel like there pretty much isn't anything to discuss, we're just repeathing ourselves and arguing about the same things over and over again. Also,


what the hell?


Please don't use a Choice Scarf. Locking Greninja into one move takes away the point of Protean and Greninja's great coverage.
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I didn't say I use Choice Scarf. Check my moveset again:

Greninja @ Expert Belt/Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Fighting]

I was just pondering it since HP Fight locks him into 30 Speed IVs and ensures him getting knocked out by other Greninjas.
 
JustLetMePlay said:
I think your issue is you think I'm saying that once you slap a scarf on Greninja you 100% have to use it as a lead every single battle and not only that, but it appears as though you think I'm saying that you can't run any other dedicated leads (which I believe are antiquated notions anyway) if you run Scarf!Greninja. That's obviously not what I'm saying, I'm saying it's got a niche as an anti-lead against teams that use Genesect, and that in itself is a very powerful option.
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My issue is if the opposition Genesect user predicts a greninja switch, it's OHKO with u-turn and/or bug-buzz and possibly thunderbolt.

252 SpA Genesect Bug Buzz vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 368-434 (128.6 - 151.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 4 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0- Def Greninja: 408-482 (142.6 - 168.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 246-290 (86 - 101.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

On the chance that it doesn't die by thunderbolt, it's left with 14% HP (best case scenario) and then dies to a single priority move from most OU tiers. Which defeats the purpose of a sweeping scout mid to late phase of a battle. Your arguing that your play style/suggestion gives greninja the niche of countering a genesect lead, I'm not arguing against the play style, but I'm arguing for my sweeping scout which again is another niche that Greninja can take on very well.
 
1337roll said:
My issue is if the opposition Genesect user predicts a greninja switch, it's OHKO with u-turn and/or bug-buzz and possibly thunderbolt.

252 SpA Genesect Bug Buzz vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 368-434 (128.6 - 151.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 4 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0- Def Greninja: 408-482 (142.6 - 168.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 246-290 (86 - 101.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

On the chance that it doesn't die by thunderbolt, it's left with 14% HP (best case scenario) and then dies to a single priority move from most OU tiers. Which defeats the purpose of a sweeping scout mid to late phase of a battle. Your arguing that your play style/suggestion gives greninja the niche of countering a genesect lead, I'm not arguing against the play style, but I'm arguing for my sweeping scout which again is another niche that Greninja can take on very well.
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You'd never switch Greninja into a Genesect attack though that's just stupid. BTW what do you mean by a 'scout' anyway? Team preview made the definition of 'scouting' I know obsolete.
 
TKGriffiths said:
You'd never switch Greninja into a Genesect attack though that's just stupid. BTW what do you mean by a 'scout' anyway? Team preview made the definition of 'scouting' I know obsolete.
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Which is the thing, unless you can overpredict the oppositions Genesect switch and hit it with an HP fire immediately, you're either switching into a Genesect attack or your scarf locks you in to your other coverage moves (or you can predict and u-turn the hell out of there), which you would be forced to switch into something else to take a deadly Genesect attack thats scarfed.
 
Can someone please tell me why Shadow Sneak is bad on Greninja? I've read through this thread already and have yet to see a strong argument against it, other than it being a weak move. It has helped me a lot against Conkeldurr, Breloom, and the over powered M-Lucario. Not only that, but it can also serve as a decent spin blocker.

Here's the set I've been running but have been wanting to improve:

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 88 Atk / 168 SpA / 252 Spe (EV spread by VCrowe)
Hasty Nature
- Surf
- Shadow Sneak
- Extrasensory
- Hidden Power Fire

Yes, I know that this is gimmicky, but if you play carefully with it you'll be able to eliminate OU threats such as (M)-Scizor, Ferrothorn, Breloom, Conkeldurr, Gengar, Aegislash, Gliscor and most spinners, with the only troublesome spinners being M-Blastoise and maybe Starmie. I know Shadow Sneak isn't the best move for it, but it certainly isn't horrible either and can work on some sets.
 
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MondBlack said:
I didn't say I use Choice Scarf. Check my moveset again:

Greninja @ Expert Belt/Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Fighting]

I was just pondering it since HP Fight locks him into 30 Speed IVs and ensures him getting knocked out by other Greninjas.
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Well, you asked if you should use a Choice Scarf. Not having all the IVs in Speed hardly matters, since you‘re still outspeeding Base 120s I believe. However, I don‘t see the point of HP Fighting, the best HP is HP Fire.
 
Magicfire said:
Well, you asked if you should use a Choice Scarf. Not having all the IVs in Speed hardly matters, since you‘re still outspeeding Base 120s I believe. However, I don‘t see the point of HP Fighting, the best HP is HP Fire.
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Well if you're using choice scarf, idk why you would still need 252 in speed EVs. 96 ev scarf greninja already outspeeds 252 speed noivern @choice spec and genesect with 252 speed @choice scarf.
 
TKGriffiths said:
You'd never switch Greninja into a Genesect attack though that's just stupid. BTW what do you mean by a 'scout' anyway? Team preview made the definition of 'scouting' I know obsolete.
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Greninja enjoys free switch-ins and a Scarfed Ice Beam is definitely one of them

Also, although preview has pretty much eliminated the roles of dedicated scouts, it isn't an obsolete term/function.
Despite team preview one can never truly be sure of what variant it is. By placing your Greninja in a 1v1 scenario against certain Pokemon you can decide what variant it is.
For example :
You switch Greninja in on Garchomp safely via Volt Switch | U-Turn | Baton Pass | Death Fodder.
You can technically scout to see what variant of a Garchomp it is by seeing if the opponent switches out (because it lacks Scarf) or stays in (because it has Scarf)
 
1337roll said:
Well if you're using choice scarf, idk why you would still need 252 in speed EVs. 96 ev scarf greninja already outspeeds 252 speed noivern @choice spec and genesect with 252 speed @choice scarf.
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You use Scarf to mainly check fast Scarfers and speed boosters, such as Scarf Gengar, Scarf Latios, DD Dragonite, Cloyster, etc.

156 Speed EVs are needed to outspeed +2 Jolly Cloyster (160 if running HP Fire), while 160 outspeeds Scarf Gengar/Latios (164 if running HP Fire). 200 Speed (204 if running HP Fire) outspeeds Scarf Starmie, and that's about as high as Scarfers go, other than Greninja and Noivern who Greninja can't outspeed anyways.
 
Here's a YouTube video of a physical Greninja which in my opinion, performed very well. It also shows why Shadow Sneak isn't entirely horrible for Greninja.

Credit to PokeaimMD as the video isn't mine.
 
SnoopysWorld said:
Here's a YouTube video of a physical Greninja which in my opinion, performed very well. It also shows why Shadow Sneak isn't entirely horrible for Greninja.

Credit to PokeaimMD as the video isn't mine.
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While I'm still not sold on a straight up Physical Set, that video do make me a believer in putting Shadow Sneak on Greninja. While it definitely won't KOing anyone quickly, I think running Shadow Sneak over Dark Pulse is smarter. Ghost and Dark types have the exact same coverage (except Dark is resisted by more types than Ghost), and it can protect a Greninja that used Ice Beam from being revenged killed by a Mach Punch.
 
SnoopysWorld said:
Here's a YouTube video of a physical Greninja which in my opinion, performed very well. It also shows why Shadow Sneak isn't entirely horrible for Greninja.
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Besides being near worthlessly weak? It provides no additional coverage alongside his usual coverage moves so you will have to sacrifice a much stronger coverage attack to run it like Dark pulse, Hidden power fire or even U-turn, the priority is almost completely useless on something so fast, and when faced with fighting priority users like conk or loom the better option would just be to switch out if you're not packing Extrasensory.

To make an example, that set you posted above has had to sacrifice Ice Beam and/or Grass Knot to run Shadow Sneak, both of which have fantastic coverage along side water (running all three you have perfect neutral coverage) so it gave up having any means of breaking through dragons (all of whom he can otherwise outspeed and OHKO), bulky grass types (though really the only one to watch for would be Celebi) and/or opposing water types (though admittedly Grass Knot isn't great against Rotom-W and Vaporeon).

While Shadow Sneak does have its uses, Greninja's other options are generally better. IMO U-turn is his best 4th move so you can just tag out in front of something his other 3 moves can't touch. Switching out only in case of priority and faster mons.
 
I need help tweaking the EVs, but the theory behind my set is that it KOs Adamant Talonflame and Deo-S.

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs 32 Atk (?) / 220 SAtk (?) / 252 Spd
Naive/Hasty Nature
-Water Shuriken
-Ice Beam
-U-Turn
-Spikes

Water Shuriken is priority, letting Greninja KO Adamant Talonflame and break Deo-S sashes. (in theory) Spikes let it set up, also stopping Electric moves. U-Turn lets it switch out, and Ice Beam is powerful Special STAB.

I need calculations, if anybody is kind enough to help me, (I'm at a public place using IE, so I can't use the One vs. All Calculator) and help with the balance of Attack to Special Attack EVs.

(yay first post)
 
Grenphox said:
Water Shuriken is priority, letting Greninja KO Adamant Talonflame and break Deo-S sashes. (in theory) Spikes let it set up, also stopping Electric moves. U-Turn lets it switch out, and Ice Beam is powerful Special STAB.
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Water Shuriken isn't even a surefire KO against Talonflame even with an Adamant (and I mean even if Greninja was running Adamant) nature without prior damage or Stealth Rocks. And with your set, you NEED to hit all 5 times. And you have no business trying to take on Deoxys-S with Water Shuriken when you could U-Turn out for way more damage anyway. If you really want Greninja as a spiker, you might just want to stick with the standard sets.
 
I KNOW this looks like a pathetic gimmick, but how about a bulkier lead set.

Greninja @ Leftovers
Protean
252 HP / 252 Attack / 4 Speed

-Shadow Sneak
-Hidden Power Steel
-Spikes
-Water Shuriken

Start setting up Spikes, then when a threat enters, use Greninja's Priority and blitzing speed to change into a resistant
type before it hits you, also dealing damage. The threat will most likely have to switch out, and you can change type before
the new counter hits you. At the same time, all new counters will start taking additional damage from instant STAB and the
spikes.

I know from the start this looks terrible, and I'm no extreme veteran to competitive battling, but I just thought there might be a chance.
 
Alakazam100 said:
I KNOW this looks like a pathetic gimmick, but how about a bulkier lead set.

Greninja @ Leftovers
Protean
252 HP / 252 Attack / 4 Speed

-Shadow Sneak
-Hidden Power Steel
-Spikes
-Water Shuriken

Start setting up Spikes, then when a threat enters, use Greninja's Priority and blitzing speed to change into a resistant
type before it hits you, also dealing damage. The threat will most likely have to switch out, and you can change type before
the new counter hits you. At the same time, all new counters will start taking additional damage from instant STAB and the
spikes.

I know from the start this looks terrible, and I'm no extreme veteran to competitive battling, but I just thought there might be a chance.
Click to expand...

The problem is that Greninjas defenses are so low that making use out of Protean in a defensive manner isn't going to work. If you want a bulky Spiker you should take a look at Ferrothorn/Skarmory/deoxys-D etc. they already have a very good typing and great defenses and even though they can't change their typing are a lot better suited for a defensive Spikes role. An offensive Spikes set however is pretty good, but most of the time its outclassed by Deo-S which is propably the best lead for HO.
 
Convoy_Avenger said:
Is toxic spikes viable instead of spikes? With protean, that adds some extra defensive coverage.
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It's already been said countless times before. It doesn't matter what EVs moves or nature you go for, you should NEVER use Protean defensively. Doing so will result in epic fails. Always go for full offense.
 
It good to note that a variant of the spiker set is playable with the toxic spikes :p so so that he can resit fighting type
 
Liarliarpantsonfire said:
Shadow Sneak has its defensive merits: you can use it against Breloom to avoid the Mach Punch, then KO it safely next turn with Ice Beam. Just an example.
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Greninja can also switch out and let a teammate deal with it. Breloom can also Spore, and probably will as well, since it expects Greninja to switch.

Even if it doesn't it'll just switch out after your Sneak does ~0 damage.
 
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