XY UU Beta Discussion (Read post #32)

[Turtleye]

Actually there are several reasons no one has mentioned Arcanine:

• Intimidate gives Bisharp an Attack boost
• Dragons are everywhere and most do well against Arcanine
• The Fire-types it used to switch in on have declined in popularity
• It wasn't steller last gen, just a little above mediocre
• Also yeah it got nothing new

Yep These points are true. But that isn't cold-stopping it yet and although he can't really, like, OHKO dragons and others, it's (or at least this set's) main role is to weaken most physical sweepers with either WoW or one of its attacks for others rather than sweeping on it's own. If you really want to be hitting hard you could better go with Entei or maybe even Emboar, or just run different moves. But this set has been a great value on my newer teams snd it's utility is very useful.
Yea I dont know why I put Bisharp in there. I always seem to forget Defaint in-battle >_>

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

The problem is that weavile struggle against the rest of my teammates (specially mienshao) which makes it a non issue in general. Thats why i dont care about it and would rather get more bulk for manectric then go paranoid about a single threat that is already well covered. Also not really sure who is going to use icicle crash when its illegal with knock off.

 

[Liquidocelot]

Regarding the Drought discussion, I'm pretty sure that there's nothing that makes Drought overpowering in UU except for the existence of Mega Houndoom. I can't think of anything at all that isn't 2HKO'd by Solar Power boosted, Sun boosted Fire Blast, Dark Pulse, or Solarbeam in the tier besides Chansey. There's just no hope of walling this thing if you don't have room for Chansey on your team, and goddamn, even Chansey can take around 40% from Fire Blast.
There are 3 other stupidly powerful pokemon in the tier, Mega Medicham, Mega Heracross, and Mega Gardevoir. I actually think that Medicham outclasses Heracross at pure wallbreaking unless it's SD Hera, but either one of them hits so disgustingly hard that the prominent physical walls, like Hippowdon have to be at absolutely full health to handle them, which is really lame. Physically defensive Florges and the aforementioned Hippwodon are champs that barely holds it together for you, though.

252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 199-235 (55.2 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Florges: 157-186 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 180-215 (50 - 59.7%) -- approx. 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Those Medicham and Heracross calcs don't look too encouraging, but since Florges uses Wish+Protect for healing, it has a decent chance of handling them as long they don't get too many max rolls, and Moonblast will destroy them.
Basically, Medicham, Heracross, and Gardevoir are stupidly strong, but they have shaky counters and very solid checks, so they can be dealt with, and Mega Houndoom is a broken whore.

I agree that drought should not be banned but mega doom should be or at least suspected as in sun it can 2hko the entire tier with a (warning pun) chansey to 2hko chansey and it gets rather easy switch ins due to flash fire. That being said its frail weak to priority and can easily be stalled out with solar power. While it may not be the most overpowered thing i still think it is at least worth some sort of suspect test in the future.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Is it worth it to run HP Ice on Mega Manectric over HP Grass in UU? OU's ground types are mostly 4x to Ice, but HP Grass allows you to get past a lot of UU's ground types.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Is it worth it to run HP Ice on Mega Manectric over HP Grass in UU? OU's ground types are mostly 4x to Ice, but HP Grass allows you to get past a lot of UU's ground types.

Now that i think about it, grass seems more suitable for the tier. Hell even bug would be more useful to 2hko celebi. It will most likely depend on the team but yeah, grass seems the more consistent choice.

 

[ryan]

I still run HP Ice over HP Grass most of the time, but it ultimately depends on my team structure. If I need to be able to take out Swampert and Rhyperior, I'll run HP Grass, but I usually prefer the utility of taking out shit like Noivern (which Mega Manectric is one of the few Pokemon to naturally outspeed it) and other Dragons, considering how Dragon infested the tier is with things like Haxorus, Latias, Noivern, Hydreigon, Zygod, etc. lurking around every team. You've already got Flamethrower for Celebi (which isn't that much weaker than HP Bug anyways). What I'm getting at is that it's usually a lot easier to cover Rhyperior and Swampert than it is every Dragon-type in the tier. You also snipe Gligar this way, even if that's not really a huge deal.

 

[Ununhexium]

I use HP ice because it get quite a bit better neutral coverage. Personally, I'd rather whack more than a few things harder.

-Ununhexium

 

[alexwolf]

A quick problem that comes to mind with such a set on Quagsire is Latias. Unaware backfires on Quagsire at this point since Latias can quite literally spam Draco Meteor until Quagisre is out or switches.

As for Keldeo, it's counter-balanced pretty nicely. Two of the top offensive checks it had from BW2 OU have come to XY UU with it (Latias and Celebi) Mega Gardevoir is also a pretty damn good answer to it with that special bulk and 4x Fighting resistance.

Deoxys-Speed is just stupid, but I highly doubt it will be around UU for very long (as in, usage making it rise to OU) While Bisharp is annoying, it's hard for it to come in for free unless the opponent just makes it stupidly obvious that a Defog is coming. It's got p. bad special bulk and the 3 best megas in the tier (Medicham, Heracross, and Gardevoir) can just blow past it with their STAB moves alone. That said, if it gets Defiant to activate, good luck. You'll probably need it unless you have something like Keldeo or a Mega Heracross fast enough to outspeed it.

I don't think that Unaware works like this. Basically, Unaware ignores anything negative to the user regarding stat boosts (drops to itself or boosts to the opponent) and anything positive to the opponent (boosts). So, Draco Meteor's power is still halved on the second use against Unaware users.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Unaware ignores any stat changes on the opponent and that includes negative changes, hence quagsire is destroyed by any draco meteor user.

 

[Swamp Link]

I don't think that Unaware works like this. Basically, Unaware ignores anything negative to the user regarding stat boosts (drops to itself or boosts to the opponent) and anything positive to the opponent (boosts). So, Draco Meteor's power is still halved on the second use against Unaware users.

Yeah, SmashBrosBrawl is correct on this one. Unaware ignores all of your opponent's stat changes, so you can keep spamming Draco Meteor through.

 

[Ununhexium]

I think Staraptor should be UU. last gen, it was banned to BL, but that was before Cofagrigus and Gligar became major UU defensive threats. With them and other new defensive pokemon, Staraptor would fit well as a strong, yet not broken, UU contender in the XY metagame.

-Ununhexium

 

[Swamp Link]

Alright, this is a set I've been liking.

Kyurem @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 116 Atk / 216 SAtk / 176 Spd
Mild Nature
- Outrage
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Draco Meteor

So they banned Kyurem-B. Use the next best thing, that is almost as broken and can do almost the same role. I wanted a mixed wallbreaker, so the attack EV's allow it to 2HKO 252/252 Bold Chansey with Outrage after Rocks (Chansey is a bulky whore, apparently). 176 Spd allows it to outspeed neutral-natured Base 85's like Kingdra and Nidoking (I didn't really know what speed tier to aim for since the metagame isn't established enough for that yet). And then I threw the rest into SpAtk. A Mild Nature maximizes Special Attack since that's what this set focuses on, and his typing is more suited to take special attacks than physical, so drop physical defense. I like, it's pretty cool, works well, 2HKO's most walls, breaks stuff, is bulky, it's good.

 

[Swamp Link]

There is no way Keldeo belongs in UU. I understand that there is no Drizzle and that Hydro pump got nerfed, but we still need to consider the rest of the factors. Base 129 special attack is nothing to mess with and base 108 speed outpaces a good chunk of UU and even some of OU. Hydro Pump still hits remarkably hard and you can still use its common sets. Also, its counters dropping only means it should be used more in OU.

I'm pretty sure that Keldeo is just going to rise up to OU by usage. It's still quite good, and it'll go back there. But, from what I've seen, it's not broken at all in UU. Celebi, Jellicent, Latias, Florges all consummately wall it without a problem. It is a strong pokemon, but it's not too strong to deal with without resorting to obscure things, and while it has a great speed tier, it can be revenge killed by many scarfers like Thundurus-T, and it's just not unreasonable to wall it. All of its counters are just legitimately great pokemon for other reasons too, so I welcome the presence of Keldeo while it lasts, it also makes a great counter to Bisharp.

 

[Lazybeef]

One of the best pokemon right now is definitely haxorus. With all other strong dragons banned from UU, haxorus is now the unrivaled dragon dancer in it's own tier. After a single dragon dance haxorus can OHKO/2HKO a significant number of pokemon. Mold breaker makes safe switch ins practically non-existant (bronzong is 2HKOed by eq), because skarmory is sitting in OU. Because haxorus lacks a x4 weakness it isn't easy to OHKO, which in turn often nets it al leats one turn of set up. When it comes to setup options haxorus can choose between DD and SD. DD is better against faster teams while SD is better against stall teams. Haxorus only really need a dragon move and eq as attacking moves and will therefore often run both setup moves at once. This makes haxorus great no matter what team you are facing.

There are quite a few checks to haxorus. Latias, Flygon and weavile to name a few. Still, it pretty much impossible to switch into safely and it will take your entire team if you give it an inch. I've been swept by and swept many teams with this guy, and I find myself running dedicated checks to it on every new team I try. It is also unlikely to ever rise to OU unlike latias and keldeo, further cementing its potential dominance over the tier.

Huge threat. Watch out for it.

 

[Patrick1088]

There is no way Keldeo belongs in UU. I understand that there is no Drizzle and that Hydro pump got nerfed, but we still need to consider the rest of the factors. Base 129 special attack is nothing to mess with and base 108 speed outpaces a good chunk of UU and even some of OU. Hydro Pump still hits remarkably hard and you can still use its common sets. Also, its counters dropping only means it should be used more in OU.

Keldeo is very good, but it has a few things working against it. While water/fighting is great coverage, Keldeo lacks other coverage moves. It has to rely on Icy Wind and Hidden Power to do much. Even then, it's still walled eternally by certain pokes. If you choose Hidden Power Electric, Sp Def Celebi has no problems. If you choose Hidden Power Bug, then Jellicent will laugh. Celebi, Latias, Jellicent, Florges are only a handful of the checks to Keldeo. It's not like you're running these pokes to check keldeo, they can function just fine without being outclassed by another pokemon. It's not like you're forced to run Shed Shell Heatran to beat the Dugtrio + Genesect core that we had early BW2. Celebi has access to Natural Cure and Perish Song. Latias has the famed Defog. Jellicent is a very good spinblocker with access to taunt. Florges is a great Wish Passer and Cleric. Florges is the only poke that you may choose over Umbreon since Umbreon does pass bigger wishes, but the immunity to dragon, resistances to fighting and dark coupled with the 112 Sp Attack set it apart from Umbreon.

Let's not forget we do have plenty of powerful pokes that can check keldeo: Mega Gard, Crobat, Scarf Staraptor (assuming Keldeo is not running scarf of course). Each of these can OHKO with their STAB moves.

 

[EonX]

Actuallly, Staraptor is only OHKOed by Hydro Pump if Keldeo is Scarfed and we all know how 80% accuracy tends to work out...

As for Haxorus, I haven't had a ton of problems with it. There's a lot of common Pokemon that can outspeed it without a boost and Fairy-types keep it from just firing off Outrage mindlessly (although it has Poison Jab to kill them off) It has a hard time setting up against offensive teams due to its rather frail defenses while Florges and Metagross are a couple of bulkier threats that only fear a single move (Poison Jab and EQ respectively) and can prey on Haxorus's lackluster defenses. Without a Speed boost, Haxorus is outsped by Latias, Noivern, Keldeo, Mega Gardevoir, and Mega Medicham just to name a few. Now that isn't to say Haxorus is bad. Far from it. With SD and DD, it can be quite the flexible setup sweeper and EQ will KO most Fairy-types after an SD boost (iirc, Florges is the only Fairy that can avoid the OHKO from +1 EQ) There are just plenty of ways to check it depending on the boosting move it decides to use, but knowing which one it will use is part of the battle after all.

 

[Patrick1088]

As for unaware situation, quagsire ignores the stat drop associated with draco meteor. However it gives the next switch in a very easy time to switch in and create an easy win condition. Ive been pairing quagsire with sub mega gard. It can come in on the -2 latias, sub and start spamming hyper voice. It also lets ypu scout the next switch in. Also i didnt realize infestation is baton passed which is a big boost against scolipede bp boosts and sd to certain megas.

 

[UU ALL DAY]

So far, I've never had an issue with Keldeo. Rain not being perm is definitely a help, but the fact pokes like Celebi and Latias exist in UU, I feel like Keldeo won't run rampant. It may be like Tornadus in UU last gen, it was good in UU, but it wasn't as effective as it was in OU because of the meta and it's typing/stats.

 

[NotBruceWayne]

Just my two cents:
1) I agree with Deoxys-D getting banned. With access to a wide array of support moves like SR, Spikes, Magic Coat, Taunt and the ability to heal itself in Recover and stats to make it work (160 on both defenses and 90 Speed). His speedy counterpart is easily dealt with and the hazards Deoxys-S sets can be Defog/Spin-ed while Deoxys-D's bulk allows him to live SE hits and reset his hazards.
2) I'm not really sure about the Keldeo issue, or even Latias. With Latias' special bulk, it can avoid being OHKOed by some SE attacks and with it's decent Special Attack, it can retaliate for a decent amount of damage as well though bulky variants without any Speed EVs are outspeed by Adamant Haxorus. Keldeo looks pretty balanced, in a tier with both Celebi and Jellicent.

Why not make BL a tier? LMAO

 

[RotomPoison]

Just my two cents:
1) I agree with Deoxys-D getting banned. With access to a wide array of support moves like SR, Spikes, Magic Coat, Taunt and the ability to heal itself in Recover and stats to make it work (160 on both defenses and 90 Speed). His speedy counterpart is easily dealt with and the hazards Deoxys-S sets can be Defog/Spin-ed while Deoxys-D's bulk allows him to live SE hits and reset his hazards.
2) I'm not really sure about the Keldeo issue, or even Latias. With Latias' special bulk, it can avoid being OHKOed by some SE attacks and with it's decent Special Attack, it can retaliate for a decent amount of damage as well though bulky variants without any Speed EVs are outspeed by Adamant Haxorus. Keldeo looks pretty balanced, in a tier with both Celebi and Jellicent.

Why not make BL a tier? LMAO

On the Deoxys-D point, it lost a lot of what made it more versatile then other hazard setters. Without gems, it has no way of OHKOing things like Tyranitar with a Superpower, or hitting anything with a nerfed Hidden Power. It will just be another hazard setter in a meta full of Pokemon that can either Defog or beat it 1 on 1. However, Recover is huge, I'll admit. Facing competition from Deoxys-S is something that is probably better left to another thread.

As for Keldeo, I really think we should give it some time. The nerfs to its Water move and Hidden Power really hurt it. A lot of good counters are even better now since they can avoid the 2HKO from Hidden Power or a STAB move. Since there will eventually be suspect tests anyway, let's see what happens (I'll end up voting myself most likely, but I think I should try Keldeo more before having a better opinion.

 

[FrankSteel]

On the Deoxys-D point, it lost a lot of what made it more versatile then other hazard setters. Without gems, it has no way of OHKOing things like Tyranitar with a Superpower, or hitting anything with a nerfed Hidden Power. It will just be another hazard setter in a meta full of Pokemon that can either Defog or beat it 1 on 1. However, Recover is huge, I'll admit. Facing competition from Deoxys-S is something that is probably better left to another thread.

Deoxys-D is still very versatile, and can do some things well that other hazard setters can't do. With its bulk it can wall a good chunk of UU and toxic/recover it to death. I ran into one person using dual screens on it, along with hazards. Also people are saying Bisharp needs to be banned, and I may not agree with that, but if that happens then there is one less Dark running around to threaten Deoxys-D. On Deoxys-S I have personally not had trouble with it and it is usually out in two turns, and sometimes doesn't even get its hazards up, so I could live with it staying in UU.

 

[WebBowser]

Gosh darn it forretress, come down already!

 

[Qwilphish]

Obviously, Gardevoir's offensive prowess in its MEvo form has been discussed heavily in this thread already. However, I've found that Gardevoir is much more impressive running a defensive set. In its MEvo form, Garvdevoir is the second fastest Fairy-type outside of Whimsicott (which shouldn't be running a stall-y set anyways, annoyer is a lot better) which, when combined with its useful support movepool, means that it can pull out a lot of clutch moves where other fairies such as Aromatisse or Florges can't do. Another advantage of running Gardevoir as a defensive threat is that it has (one of the if not) the best offensive pressure out of any defensive Pokemon with its 165 Base SpA Hyper Voice even when it isn't running any investment. Finally, I'm sure that the defensive benefits that the Fairy-type have already been stated. It gives Gardevoir a 4x resistance to Fighting and an immunity to Dragon, two of the more threatening types in the tier, while also neutralizing its previous weaknesses to Dark and Bug.

The other Fairy-types in the tier have better defenses (although Florges only has higher HP and 20 more SpD), and can run Leftovers, which means that they can often take an extra hit if needed. However, the advantages that MEGArdevoir has over the them make it better IMO on teams that need a defensive MEvo or any team that needs Wish Support.

Here is the set that I've been using: (EVs for now are arbitrary, but I know it needs Def investment a lot more than SpD)

Gardevoir @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 80 SDef / 252 HP / 176 Def
Bold Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Wish
- Hyper Voice
- Protect

 

[NotBruceWayne]

Gosh darn it forretress, come down already!

Forretress makes for an interesting case. Has the Defog buff caused it to loose its purpose of being a hazard setting, spinblocking wall? (I mean Defog can't be blocked unlike Rapid Spin. Removes all hazards though). Or will the Overcoat buff be enough to keep it at OU? I hope it gets Sticky Web as an egg move or something (it is a bug right lmao)

 

[jamashawalker]

Anyone else finding Gardevoir (in any form) to be the anti metagame of UU!? So good at the moment

And Staraptor needs to stop being slept on. Still one of the most powerful pokemon this generation. Just cant mindlessly spam Brave Bird, but doesnt mean its not powerful.

Kyurem as well. Specs Draco meteor is still an amazing wall breaking set