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XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)
- Thread starter Aldaron
- Start date
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There are more ways to counter MLuc than people realize. Any one set it runs isn't perfect and can be walled by a number of standard OU mons. Special MLuc can be stopped by a number of pokemon who have either have assault vest (like Conkeldurr) or resist its stabs (like Zapdos). Special MLuc has to choose between priority or better coverage. Physical MLuc is probably the most balanced set and has the very scary adaptability cc, but it has to worry about burns, intimidate, rough skin/rocky helmet, spiky/king's shield, gooey/static/flame body, etc. Mixed MLuc forgoes priority, coverage, and/or boosting for its surprise factor.
Many people have stressed that the counters for each set vary drastically and guessing wrong can often mean you lose 1-6 mons. Some even say he has no true counters or that any would-be counters are a liability otherwise. I'd like to try and show that he can be countered.
+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 252 Def Heracross: 268-316 (74 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Heracross: 258-304 (71.2 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0+ Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 384-452 (136.6 - 160.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
As you can see, Hercules is very tanky and hits like a truck. There were 12 EV's to spare here. You could also do scarf Hera or MHera and have the same potential to switch in on anything it does and kill it. Outside of countering MLuc he can status absorb with guts, take hits like a champ, and hit back hard with cc, eq, megahorn, and rock blast/stone edge.
+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 52 Def Aegislash-Shield: 256-302 (79 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Mega Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 16 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 256-302 (79 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
56+ Atk Expert Belt Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 283-334 (100.7 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
If you don't want attack boosting nature and expert belt, you can invest as little as 44 in Atk and rely on shadow sneak to kill it after sacred sword. Special MLuc can't hit you with priority and Physical MLuc can only do it with bullet punch, which opens up the king's shield mind games. Just having this guy on your team should make MLuc hesitate to boost on any potential free turns (if you switch in when he boosts, he either switches out or dies). You could also do air balloon/shuca berry if you were afraid of eq ruining your day. With leftovers you don't need any Def/Sp Def EV's to survive after SR.
+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Crunch vs. 240 HP / 56 Def Slowbro: 330-390 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (as long as SR is down you can beat it)
+2 252 SpA Mega Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 240 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 294-346 (75.1 - 88.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
204+ SpA Slowbro Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 282-332 (100.3 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Slowbro when EV'd properly can survive and OHKO back. With regenerator you aren't crippled if he chooses to switch out after attacking. He isn't SR proof physically, but being able to counter both sets is impressive. He is a good pivot outside of countering MLuc hitting with impressive fire/fight(or psyshock)/water/ice coverage.
+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 232 HP / 192 Def Volcarona: 312-368 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 177-209 (47.9 - 56.6%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 232 HP / 192 SpD Volcarona: 148-175 (40.1 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (If you choose to prioritize countering Special MLuc)
16+ SpA Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 332-392 (118.1 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
You can switch in on Special MLuc and quiver dance+roost/fiery dance or just kill it asap. Physical MLuc requires Stone Edge to kill you. 68 EV's in speed. Bulky Volc shouldn't be underestimated. Being able to set up on one of the best special sweepers in the game says a lot. Flame body hax is also rq inducing frustration just waiting to happen.
+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Amoonguss: 296-349 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Amoonguss: 370-436 (85.6 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 56+ SpD Amoonguss: 376-444 (87 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Amoongus has regenerator and spore. He can take the strongest hits on both sides (most of the time) and get off a spore. You could specialize him to take hits better from whatever side you fear more. Phys MLuc w/o ice punch can be dealt with even under SR. Not really a true counter, but he does force him out w/o dying in the process. If he doesn't switch out, you have a free switch in to whatever can normally revenge it (1 turn of sleep is guaranteed and 33% chance he wakes up turn 2)
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 132 Def Nidoking: 150-177 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Mega Lucario Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 132 Def Nidoking: 188-222 (51.3 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Nidoking: 232-274 (63.3 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Nidoking: 58-69 (15.8 - 18.8%) -- possible 6HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 132 Def Nidoking: 102-120 (27.8 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 294-348 (104.6 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
For fun I made a scarf set that can switch in on what most MLuc's would run and OHKO back with Nidoking. If you really try, you can make a lot of mons work in this regard like Staraptor or Victini. This set isn't meant to be taken seriously as an OU viable Nidoking. It is just something that illustrates the point that there are more possible counters out there the community at large may not be aware of. Some who might actually have merit outside of countering MLuc.
A lot of people in this thread are focusing on how hard it is to safely switch into. I think not enough attention is being paid to the fact that while certainly devastating once it gets that +2, MLuc is not too hard to revenge kill with 70/88/70 defenses and 3 very common weaknesses. Even when it does get that free turn/+2 and killed a mon on a wrong guess it is very stoppable. Special MLuc (or Phys w/o Espeed) can't sweep if they have semi healthy TalonFlame. Any Garchomp you face could be scarfed. Breloom can mach punch you to death from full hp. Greninja outspeeds and KO's with hp fire. Scarf Gene is omnipresent. Trick Room teams make his speed a liability. There are plenty of revenge killers capable of stopping him after he gets going. Lucario's base speed also isn't that great until it evolves successfully, which can be very difficult to do against offensive teams.
Personally I don't want to see him banned and would rather deal with one really powerful mega per team like MLuc than deal with a team of unrestricted mons like gene, thundurus (prankster t-wave hax...), deo-s, etc. I think most good teams deal with MLuc without having any real dedicated counters anyway, but that is just my opinion. I just don't think a ban is necessary at this point in time.
Many people have stressed that the counters for each set vary drastically and guessing wrong can often mean you lose 1-6 mons. Some even say he has no true counters or that any would-be counters are a liability otherwise. I'd like to try and show that he can be countered.
+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 252 Def Heracross: 268-316 (74 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Heracross: 258-304 (71.2 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0+ Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 384-452 (136.6 - 160.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
As you can see, Hercules is very tanky and hits like a truck. There were 12 EV's to spare here. You could also do scarf Hera or MHera and have the same potential to switch in on anything it does and kill it. Outside of countering MLuc he can status absorb with guts, take hits like a champ, and hit back hard with cc, eq, megahorn, and rock blast/stone edge.
+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 52 Def Aegislash-Shield: 256-302 (79 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Mega Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 16 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 256-302 (79 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
56+ Atk Expert Belt Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 283-334 (100.7 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
If you don't want attack boosting nature and expert belt, you can invest as little as 44 in Atk and rely on shadow sneak to kill it after sacred sword. Special MLuc can't hit you with priority and Physical MLuc can only do it with bullet punch, which opens up the king's shield mind games. Just having this guy on your team should make MLuc hesitate to boost on any potential free turns (if you switch in when he boosts, he either switches out or dies). You could also do air balloon/shuca berry if you were afraid of eq ruining your day. With leftovers you don't need any Def/Sp Def EV's to survive after SR.
+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Crunch vs. 240 HP / 56 Def Slowbro: 330-390 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (as long as SR is down you can beat it)
+2 252 SpA Mega Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 240 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 294-346 (75.1 - 88.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
204+ SpA Slowbro Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 282-332 (100.3 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Slowbro when EV'd properly can survive and OHKO back. With regenerator you aren't crippled if he chooses to switch out after attacking. He isn't SR proof physically, but being able to counter both sets is impressive. He is a good pivot outside of countering MLuc hitting with impressive fire/fight(or psyshock)/water/ice coverage.
+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 232 HP / 192 Def Volcarona: 312-368 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 177-209 (47.9 - 56.6%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 232 HP / 192 SpD Volcarona: 148-175 (40.1 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (If you choose to prioritize countering Special MLuc)
16+ SpA Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 332-392 (118.1 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
You can switch in on Special MLuc and quiver dance+roost/fiery dance or just kill it asap. Physical MLuc requires Stone Edge to kill you. 68 EV's in speed. Bulky Volc shouldn't be underestimated. Being able to set up on one of the best special sweepers in the game says a lot. Flame body hax is also rq inducing frustration just waiting to happen.
+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Amoonguss: 296-349 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Amoonguss: 370-436 (85.6 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 56+ SpD Amoonguss: 376-444 (87 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Amoongus has regenerator and spore. He can take the strongest hits on both sides (most of the time) and get off a spore. You could specialize him to take hits better from whatever side you fear more. Phys MLuc w/o ice punch can be dealt with even under SR. Not really a true counter, but he does force him out w/o dying in the process. If he doesn't switch out, you have a free switch in to whatever can normally revenge it (1 turn of sleep is guaranteed and 33% chance he wakes up turn 2)
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 132 Def Nidoking: 150-177 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Mega Lucario Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 132 Def Nidoking: 188-222 (51.3 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Nidoking: 232-274 (63.3 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Nidoking: 58-69 (15.8 - 18.8%) -- possible 6HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 132 Def Nidoking: 102-120 (27.8 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 294-348 (104.6 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
For fun I made a scarf set that can switch in on what most MLuc's would run and OHKO back with Nidoking. If you really try, you can make a lot of mons work in this regard like Staraptor or Victini. This set isn't meant to be taken seriously as an OU viable Nidoking. It is just something that illustrates the point that there are more possible counters out there the community at large may not be aware of. Some who might actually have merit outside of countering MLuc.
A lot of people in this thread are focusing on how hard it is to safely switch into. I think not enough attention is being paid to the fact that while certainly devastating once it gets that +2, MLuc is not too hard to revenge kill with 70/88/70 defenses and 3 very common weaknesses. Even when it does get that free turn/+2 and killed a mon on a wrong guess it is very stoppable. Special MLuc (or Phys w/o Espeed) can't sweep if they have semi healthy TalonFlame. Any Garchomp you face could be scarfed. Breloom can mach punch you to death from full hp. Greninja outspeeds and KO's with hp fire. Scarf Gene is omnipresent. Trick Room teams make his speed a liability. There are plenty of revenge killers capable of stopping him after he gets going. Lucario's base speed also isn't that great until it evolves successfully, which can be very difficult to do against offensive teams.
Personally I don't want to see him banned and would rather deal with one really powerful mega per team like MLuc than deal with a team of unrestricted mons like gene, thundurus (prankster t-wave hax...), deo-s, etc. I think most good teams deal with MLuc without having any real dedicated counters anyway, but that is just my opinion. I just don't think a ban is necessary at this point in time.
Any physical pokemon that can 2HKO defensive skarmory with no item or boost, while running at 112 speed and great coverage moves seems broken to me. There are only a few defensive mons that can take hits from it, and even these mons have to play extremely carefully with it. Its access to strong priority means that a check must be able to a) outspeed mega lucario and b) be able to survive a boosted priority move (extreme speed or vacuum wave) even with some health gone. Because it can hit on the special or physical side, often you have to run multiple checks or counters to deal with both sets.
Gensect seems more borderline to me. Genesect can now be pursuit trapped by band tyranitar or bring its health down enough that its KO'd by stealth rock. In addition, its amazing coverage is no longer as essential. Dragons are not quite as common, as is ferrothorn. However, its still a monster at gaining momentum and somewhat of a crutch in team building.
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Genesect: 255-301 (90.1 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Genesect: 255-301 (90.1 - 106.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Not actually sure about deoxys-s. Its pretty much the most reliable hazard/screen setter for HO teams as it can block all defog users with taunt. However its still not that hard to clear whatever it sets up right after it leaves. I haven't had any problems dealing with deoxys on any of the teams I've built, but maybe I'm missing something important.
Also to those saying that we shouldn't ban all the broken megas to ubers because they're supposed to be strong, just play ubers if you want to use them.
Gensect seems more borderline to me. Genesect can now be pursuit trapped by band tyranitar or bring its health down enough that its KO'd by stealth rock. In addition, its amazing coverage is no longer as essential. Dragons are not quite as common, as is ferrothorn. However, its still a monster at gaining momentum and somewhat of a crutch in team building.
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Genesect: 255-301 (90.1 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Genesect: 255-301 (90.1 - 106.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Not actually sure about deoxys-s. Its pretty much the most reliable hazard/screen setter for HO teams as it can block all defog users with taunt. However its still not that hard to clear whatever it sets up right after it leaves. I haven't had any problems dealing with deoxys on any of the teams I've built, but maybe I'm missing something important.
Also to those saying that we shouldn't ban all the broken megas to ubers because they're supposed to be strong, just play ubers if you want to use them.
You made some really good points here but the issue is that I just saw "Guaranteed 2HKO" for a good deal of those. This means that you have to get a free switch to take a hit and retaliate, where is that free switch going to come from? Sacking a Pokemon?. Not only that, the EVs in your calcs had all been specialised to take on a particular set. What happens when you face a different set to the one you've set up to check.
I'll just leave this here.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pokebankoubeta-69377618
tl;dw: It's a team with two Healing Wish supporters and M-Kangaskhan. It really shows you, how having "only one" OP mon does not mean at all that it's "balanced".
EyeDentist Here are just a couple errors I wanted to address in your post:
But the larger idea I want to point out is in response to this quote. Questioning whether or not we should ban a pokemon is not all about debating "pokemon x, y,and z can check / counter this suspect pokemon or not" but is instead about "how does the suspect affect risk vs reward in the game?"
Your idea that the reason why things go to ubers is "they are unstoppable" (aka having no counters) is wrong. The reason why a Pokemon goes to ubers is because the pokemon's presence in the metagame creates an uncompetitive environment in two ways: a compromise on teambuiling and a compromise tactically (the way you battle). The teambuiling compromise is that in order to remain competitive as a player, you must incorporate multiple checks to that Pokemon or specialized counters to that Pokemon that otherwise out of place and / or the Pokemon itself. The tactical compromise is that when in play with the questionable pokemon; the "risk vs reward" for the user is almost always low risk, high reward while the one opposed against the questionable pokemon is "high risk, low reward", unless the opponent chooses to run specialized counters or multiple checks. Either way, the user of the questionable pokemon is always in a favorable situation, because the opponent either compromised the effectiveness against the questionable threat itself (creating many low risk, high reward situations for the user) or the opponent compromised the construction of team for other threats in the metagame for the opponent to capitalize on.
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So specifically where do stand on all three suspects in relation to the idea above?
Well, Genesect and Lucario both deserve to go to ubers in that respect. Mega Lucario has very few checks as it already is, so one has to be very careful in teambuilding to make sure they include multiple checks to it (Mega-Lucario has no true counters). Even with multiple checks up your sleeve, the risk vs reward for you is always going to be high risk, low reward because Mega-Lucario has two very different threats in Nasty Plot vs Swords Dance which is further diversified in the move choice of Dark Pulse vs Vacuum Wave for NP and Extreme Speed vs Bullet Punch on SD. Nasty Plot with Dark Pulse in general ruins defensive checks, while Vaccuum Wave ruins offensive. In the case of SD, Extreme Speed destroys Talonflame and faster Scarfers that resist Steel (such as Rotom-W) while Bullet Punch ruins Fairies and Scarfers that resist Normal (such as Terrakion). You essentially have four different sets of checks for one offensive Pokemon. That is an incredible strain on teambuilding and a big bitch to play against.
Genesect is epitome of the "low risk, high reward" tactical compromise. Genesect's Choice Scarf set has the property of "never making the wrong move." If the opponent decides to stay in and you go for U-turn, you can simply go out to a check against the opponent's threat or force another 50-50 situation again with Genesect. With Genesect you always have a very real possibility of gaining lost ground even when you make a misplay with Scarf U-turn (that is the low risk). Genesect can obtain two rewards which are revenge killing the threat it is checking or gaining momentum with U-turn if the opponent feels pressured enough to be forced out. The opponent has to face not just the possibility of losing his threat in question, but of giving his opponent parry with his next move (i.e. a favorable switch-in). The CB set can pull the same thing off to a similar extent by revenge killing with Extreme Speed, but the price for switching out is much higher because CB U-turn stings very hard (which pressures the opponent to stay in so harder prediction). Genesect isn't the sweeping, wallbreaking powerhouse as Lucario. But Genesect still deserves to be banned because in battles it generates way too many low risk, high reward situations for the opponent while pressuring the opponent very hard (high risk, low reward) aka its gets momentum like a boss.
Now Deoxys-S in the past created a lot of trouble, but the for the time being I do not see it being Ubers worthy. The hazards or screens it created are now much more easily removed by defog. Granted, you can not do that while on Deoxys-S because its Taunt will prevent all Defog users in the game since it is just that fast. There are enough viable users of defog out there that can pull it off against an offensive team whether through their ability to check offensive threats (Mandibuzz, Zapdos, Skarmory, Scizor) or offensive presence and speed (Latios and Latias). While its offensive revenge killer set can gain momentum easily, it is just as easily lost because it relies on two attack lowering moves for STAB and essential coverage. It can also be dealt with by offensive teams through strong priority, which is incredibly easy to include now because there is such a diverse range of users. It isn't like the past where Deoxys-S' hazards pretty much nailed you down because you only had shitty Rapid Spin users while the opponent had AAA-grade offensive threats. If you attempted to spin or played to try to get your spinner in, you had to risk a huge threat coming in or setting up. There's that low risk, high reward again!
That's what I got to say about that.
- You accounted for Lucario's defense drop when Conkeldurr used Mach Punch. That would not occur because Conkeldurr would hit Mach Punch first, then Lucario's defenses would drop with CC. Lucario would actually have a chance to survive and OHKO Conkeldurr
- Many scarfed pokemon find they can't check Mega-Lucario because of its variety of priority. What one scarfer can check the other can not. I wrote more about this below.
- Genesect does get priority in the form of Extreme Speed.
- Genesect's only decent speed would be very problematic if Genesect was a glass cannon. Genesect has a Steel-typing and only one-weakness, which affords it many switchin opportunities and an ability to take a couple of attacks. It also has one of the strongest immediate priorties in the game with +1 Extreme Speed. For a boosting sweeping set, it does not have speed issues with speed with Shift Gear and Rock Polish
Your idea that the reason why things go to ubers is "they are unstoppable" (aka having no counters) is wrong. The reason why a Pokemon goes to ubers is because the pokemon's presence in the metagame creates an uncompetitive environment in two ways: a compromise on teambuiling and a compromise tactically (the way you battle). The teambuiling compromise is that in order to remain competitive as a player, you must incorporate multiple checks to that Pokemon or specialized counters to that Pokemon that otherwise out of place and / or the Pokemon itself. The tactical compromise is that when in play with the questionable pokemon; the "risk vs reward" for the user is almost always low risk, high reward while the one opposed against the questionable pokemon is "high risk, low reward", unless the opponent chooses to run specialized counters or multiple checks. Either way, the user of the questionable pokemon is always in a favorable situation, because the opponent either compromised the effectiveness against the questionable threat itself (creating many low risk, high reward situations for the user) or the opponent compromised the construction of team for other threats in the metagame for the opponent to capitalize on.
____________________________
So specifically where do stand on all three suspects in relation to the idea above?
Well, Genesect and Lucario both deserve to go to ubers in that respect. Mega Lucario has very few checks as it already is, so one has to be very careful in teambuilding to make sure they include multiple checks to it (Mega-Lucario has no true counters). Even with multiple checks up your sleeve, the risk vs reward for you is always going to be high risk, low reward because Mega-Lucario has two very different threats in Nasty Plot vs Swords Dance which is further diversified in the move choice of Dark Pulse vs Vacuum Wave for NP and Extreme Speed vs Bullet Punch on SD. Nasty Plot with Dark Pulse in general ruins defensive checks, while Vaccuum Wave ruins offensive. In the case of SD, Extreme Speed destroys Talonflame and faster Scarfers that resist Steel (such as Rotom-W) while Bullet Punch ruins Fairies and Scarfers that resist Normal (such as Terrakion). You essentially have four different sets of checks for one offensive Pokemon. That is an incredible strain on teambuilding and a big bitch to play against.
Genesect is epitome of the "low risk, high reward" tactical compromise. Genesect's Choice Scarf set has the property of "never making the wrong move." If the opponent decides to stay in and you go for U-turn, you can simply go out to a check against the opponent's threat or force another 50-50 situation again with Genesect. With Genesect you always have a very real possibility of gaining lost ground even when you make a misplay with Scarf U-turn (that is the low risk). Genesect can obtain two rewards which are revenge killing the threat it is checking or gaining momentum with U-turn if the opponent feels pressured enough to be forced out. The opponent has to face not just the possibility of losing his threat in question, but of giving his opponent parry with his next move (i.e. a favorable switch-in). The CB set can pull the same thing off to a similar extent by revenge killing with Extreme Speed, but the price for switching out is much higher because CB U-turn stings very hard (which pressures the opponent to stay in so harder prediction). Genesect isn't the sweeping, wallbreaking powerhouse as Lucario. But Genesect still deserves to be banned because in battles it generates way too many low risk, high reward situations for the opponent while pressuring the opponent very hard (high risk, low reward) aka its gets momentum like a boss.
Now Deoxys-S in the past created a lot of trouble, but the for the time being I do not see it being Ubers worthy. The hazards or screens it created are now much more easily removed by defog. Granted, you can not do that while on Deoxys-S because its Taunt will prevent all Defog users in the game since it is just that fast. There are enough viable users of defog out there that can pull it off against an offensive team whether through their ability to check offensive threats (Mandibuzz, Zapdos, Skarmory, Scizor) or offensive presence and speed (Latios and Latias). While its offensive revenge killer set can gain momentum easily, it is just as easily lost because it relies on two attack lowering moves for STAB and essential coverage. It can also be dealt with by offensive teams through strong priority, which is incredibly easy to include now because there is such a diverse range of users. It isn't like the past where Deoxys-S' hazards pretty much nailed you down because you only had shitty Rapid Spin users while the opponent had AAA-grade offensive threats. If you attempted to spin or played to try to get your spinner in, you had to risk a huge threat coming in or setting up. There's that low risk, high reward again!
That's what I got to say about that.
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Chill on the Gachikaze smack-down. By now it's definitely beating a dead horse, and I know I'm making a post, taking up space, just like you guys defending your point from Gachikaze, but come on. It's practically spam by now.
Discussion on Lucario is not going to end, so we might as well talk about Deoxys-S. Go on, convince me that it should be banned.
[EDIT]: Doughboy, great post. I see your points, and I understand better what makes an Uber an Uber. Moody wasn't unstoppable, but it ruined any thought put into the game, which warrants a ban, not necessarily "Uber status". Of course, I mean that in the fact that it isn't reliable, it's merely a chance-based thing similar to double team.
The only battle I can win here is to keep Deoxys-S, I suppose. Lucario was aiming high, and Genesect, while possibly achievable, probably won't happen. I don't see why Deoxys-S is a suspect in the first place, though. It isn't particularly threatening, and defog stops any type of hazards it tries. Defog isn't on every team, but on enough to assume that it isn't broken.
Discussion on Lucario is not going to end, so we might as well talk about Deoxys-S. Go on, convince me that it should be banned.
[EDIT]: Doughboy, great post. I see your points, and I understand better what makes an Uber an Uber. Moody wasn't unstoppable, but it ruined any thought put into the game, which warrants a ban, not necessarily "Uber status". Of course, I mean that in the fact that it isn't reliable, it's merely a chance-based thing similar to double team.
The only battle I can win here is to keep Deoxys-S, I suppose. Lucario was aiming high, and Genesect, while possibly achievable, probably won't happen. I don't see why Deoxys-S is a suspect in the first place, though. It isn't particularly threatening, and defog stops any type of hazards it tries. Defog isn't on every team, but on enough to assume that it isn't broken.
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Genesect's best set, physical scarf, marginally OHKOs Band TTar and with rocks it's most of the time (assuming they run 252/0. if they run speed instead then it's all the time.)
+1 252 Atk Genesect Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 342-404 (84.6 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Maybe I am misunderstanding the definition of counter, but you do realize most of the calcs I posted were at +2 when they are slower and unboosted when they outspeed? It gets the boost the turn you switch in so I don't see why a 2HKO would matter since it dies before it gets to attack twice. For the pokemon that outspeed MLuc I posted unboosted hits and relevant priority. Is there something I'm missing here? The pokemon I listed switch in as soon as it shows up and kills MLuc before being killed.
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Alright I guess I might as well give my two cents, although it'll probably get washed away rather quickly in the sea of posts. I'm mostly going to focus on Genesect as of now, and I'll probably touch on Deo-S later because I'm much more on the fence with it. I'm not even gonna bother saying anything about Mega Luc, because no offense, if you've been playing the OU meta for these last few months you should know damn well just how dumb it is. Both sets combined have completely different counters, the special set being extremely limited to stuff like specially defensive Zapdos and a few really niche things that no one wants to use. To be honest, everything that I wanted to say about it has been said, so I'll just leave it at that.
Okay so Genesect. We all know how amazing this fucker is, and it's quite obvious that he's the best Pokemon in OU at the moment, aside from Mega Lucario. It can run like 8 sets, it's pretty unpredictable, hits pretty hard, and gains momentum like nobody's business. Now I'm not denying that these traits can raise a few eyebrows as to whether or not its healthy in the metagame, but I'd like to give my honest opinion on the subject on banning Genesect itself, and how I feel that some people are trying to ban it for the wrong reasons.
Personally, I despise the versatile = broken mentality. To me, this doesn't suffice for a strong enough reasoning in banning a Pokemon. Versatility doesn't necessarily have anything to do with how the Pokemon has a negative impact on the metagame. There are lots of Pokemon that are extremely versatile and can run a number of successful sets in the metagame, but that doesn't necessarily make them broken because of that. A perfect example of a Pokemon that was incredibly versatile last gen but wasn't even close to being broken was Jirachi. Jirachi could run a total of 7 very viable sets at the end of BW2, and it even ran a few other sets that just never ended up making it to the analysis, such as the SR lead set, Shuca sets, etc. Not only was Jirachi incredibly dangerous and versatile, but the ability to run all of these sets made it unpredictable as fuck, and its movepool was almost just as crazy as Genesects. The only issue was, each set had very similar checks and counters, meaning that no matter what set Jirachi would run, most of its sets were all threatened by the same things. Genesect is similar in that retrospect, because while it has incredible versatility, it's still checked and countered by the same pool of Pokemon, for the most part of course. Genesect can still run specific moves like HP Ground to get around Heatran or Thunderbolt for Azumarill, but Jirachi did that too with Shuca Berry to beat Mamoswine and Landorus. Of course BW Jirachi and XY Genesect are two completely different Pokemon, but I was just using that as an example to prove my point that versatility alone does not make a Pokemon broken. While Jirachi was versatile and unpredictable, none of its sets were unhealthy on the metagame, nor did any of it sets centralize the tier in any way. I'm not saying that versatility can't play a role in the banning of a Pokemon, but I refuse to believe that it's justifiable to ban a Pokemon solely for this reason.
If we're going to ban Genesect, we need to ban it for the right reasons; by looking at its sets individually and seeing if a majority of these sets have a more negative impact on the metagame than positives. Download is an absurd ability because it makes it incredibly easy for Genesect to revenge kill with its plethora of coverage moves, and with the added Attack boost it's able to deal heavy damage to Pokemon with U-turn while still grabbing momentum. This makes it relatively easy for Genesect to not only give its teammates easy set up opportunities, but it can also weaken down defensive cores fairly quickly, making it easier for a teammate to sweep after a few turns of this.
The Choice Scarf set is able to revenge kill better than anything this tier has to offer. Depending on what coverage moves it run, it can check many different kinds of Pokemon that may threaten your team, such as Garchomp, Lucario, Landorus, Azumarill, Togekiss, and Tyranitar. This makes it a wonderful fit for most teams, because it is able to handle a lot of offensive Pokemon that give most teams trouble. On top of that, a fast U-turn allows it to gain momentum on a wide range of Pokemon, while wearing down defensive cores and picking off Psychic-types. To be honest, I think this set is quite healthy in the current metagame. While its ability to bring an insane amount of momentum to teams is absurd, it's one of the only good users of Choice Scarf this generation. This is mostly caused by the shift towards bulky offense, which makes it much more difficult for Pokemon function with just 4 moves on top of being locked into them. Also, a lot of Pokemon that were commonly wielding the Choice Scarf were of the Dragon- or Fighting-type, and with the introduction of Fairy- and Ghost-types this generation, it's much harder for the likes of Terrakion, Garchomp, Keldeo, and Latios to revenge kill, to a point where it's not worth it. Talonflame is an incredible revenge killer, but it requires much more support than your average Scarfer due to its SR weakness, nasty recoil, and its common counters are on almost every team. I feel that without Choice Scarf Genesect, offensive teams in particular will struggle to deal with set up sweepers, because they will be so limited to what they can use to revenge kill. I'm not saying that offensive teams couldn't function without Scarf Genesect, but they'll have a much harder time finding ways to deal with said threats because of this.
To be perfectly honest, I've never really seen or used Physical Shift Gear Genesect, mostly because I've found so much more use out of its other sets. I don't really want to say too much about this set because I don't have hardly any experience, but from what I've heard it's pretty manageable. A lot of it depends on what it runs, but it's always going to be walled by Heatran, and even Landorus-T or Gliscor if you choose to run Iron head over Ice Beam. A +1 Blaze Kick fails to even come close to OHKOing Skarmory, which means that Flamethrower is probably a better option anyway. Speaking of which, it depends heavily on the Attack boost to get going, or else in all honestly I'd rather just use CB or the good ole' fashioned RP all out special set, which has more coverage overall and doesn't need the boost as much because of its insane coverage. Both sets are still phenomenal sweepers, but only the special sweeping sets seem to be the more metagame threatening. Speaking of Choice Band, this is the set that I honestly think is pretty unhealthy for the metagame. While it is still walled by Heatran and the like, a +1 CB U-turn or Iron head is going to dent so many things it's not even funny. On top of that, it can use Flamethrower or Ice beam to bypass bulky defensive Pokemon like Landorus-T, Skarmory, or Aegislash. It's just so easy to wear shit down, to a point where it's almost frustrating. Unlike the Shift Gear set, it doesn't need to set up, and can immediately start spamming +2 ExtremeSpeeds Turn 1 if it wants to. This set may be slower, but it lacks a few more checks because of ExtremeSpeed, and it's no longer walled to hell by Chansey. This set literally does nothing to help the metagame in anyway other than to just make it easier to wear shit down.
All in all, Genesect is putting me on the fence. It has a some great merits in the metagame, but it certainly has its negatives impacts on the metagame, just like all suspects usually have. It's powerful, versatile, unpredictable, brings a ton of momentum to any team, and it's pretty self sufficient. Right now I'm leaning towards keeping it OU, but it is still very earlier in testing, and I could easily change my mind. Nevertheless, I hope people take this post into consideration when choosing to ban Genesect, because I'd hate to it go simply because it can run a multitude of sets. Let's focus more on the sets themselves, and how they influence the metagame, in either a good or bad way, not how Genesect can run a million of them.
Alright I guess I might as well give my two cents, although it'll probably get washed away rather quickly in the sea of posts. I'm mostly going to focus on Genesect as of now, and I'll probably touch on Deo-S later because I'm much more on the fence with it. I'm not even gonna bother saying anything about Mega Luc, because no offense, if you've been playing the OU meta for these last few months you should know damn well just how dumb it is. Both sets combined have completely different counters, the special set being extremely limited to stuff like specially defensive Zapdos and a few really niche things that no one wants to use. To be honest, everything that I wanted to say about it has been said, so I'll just leave it at that.
Okay so Genesect. We all know how amazing this fucker is, and it's quite obvious that he's the best Pokemon in OU at the moment, aside from Mega Lucario. It can run like 8 sets, it's pretty unpredictable, hits pretty hard, and gains momentum like nobody's business. Now I'm not denying that these traits can raise a few eyebrows as to whether or not its healthy in the metagame, but I'd like to give my honest opinion on the subject on banning Genesect itself, and how I feel that some people are trying to ban it for the wrong reasons.
Personally, I despise the versatile = broken mentality. To me, this doesn't suffice for a strong enough reasoning in banning a Pokemon. Versatility doesn't necessarily have anything to do with how the Pokemon has a negative impact on the metagame. There are lots of Pokemon that are extremely versatile and can run a number of successful sets in the metagame, but that doesn't necessarily make them broken because of that. A perfect example of a Pokemon that was incredibly versatile last gen but wasn't even close to being broken was Jirachi. Jirachi could run a total of 7 very viable sets at the end of BW2, and it even ran a few other sets that just never ended up making it to the analysis, such as the SR lead set, Shuca sets, etc. Not only was Jirachi incredibly dangerous and versatile, but the ability to run all of these sets made it unpredictable as fuck, and its movepool was almost just as crazy as Genesects. The only issue was, each set had very similar checks and counters, meaning that no matter what set Jirachi would run, most of its sets were all threatened by the same things. Genesect is similar in that retrospect, because while it has incredible versatility, it's still checked and countered by the same pool of Pokemon, for the most part of course. Genesect can still run specific moves like HP Ground to get around Heatran or Thunderbolt for Azumarill, but Jirachi did that too with Shuca Berry to beat Mamoswine and Landorus. Of course BW Jirachi and XY Genesect are two completely different Pokemon, but I was just using that as an example to prove my point that versatility alone does not make a Pokemon broken. While Jirachi was versatile and unpredictable, none of its sets were unhealthy on the metagame, nor did any of it sets centralize the tier in any way. I'm not saying that versatility can't play a role in the banning of a Pokemon, but I refuse to believe that it's justifiable to ban a Pokemon solely for this reason.
If we're going to ban Genesect, we need to ban it for the right reasons; by looking at its sets individually and seeing if a majority of these sets have a more negative impact on the metagame than positives. Download is an absurd ability because it makes it incredibly easy for Genesect to revenge kill with its plethora of coverage moves, and with the added Attack boost it's able to deal heavy damage to Pokemon with U-turn while still grabbing momentum. This makes it relatively easy for Genesect to not only give its teammates easy set up opportunities, but it can also weaken down defensive cores fairly quickly, making it easier for a teammate to sweep after a few turns of this.
The Choice Scarf set is able to revenge kill better than anything this tier has to offer. Depending on what coverage moves it run, it can check many different kinds of Pokemon that may threaten your team, such as Garchomp, Lucario, Landorus, Azumarill, Togekiss, and Tyranitar. This makes it a wonderful fit for most teams, because it is able to handle a lot of offensive Pokemon that give most teams trouble. On top of that, a fast U-turn allows it to gain momentum on a wide range of Pokemon, while wearing down defensive cores and picking off Psychic-types. To be honest, I think this set is quite healthy in the current metagame. While its ability to bring an insane amount of momentum to teams is absurd, it's one of the only good users of Choice Scarf this generation. This is mostly caused by the shift towards bulky offense, which makes it much more difficult for Pokemon function with just 4 moves on top of being locked into them. Also, a lot of Pokemon that were commonly wielding the Choice Scarf were of the Dragon- or Fighting-type, and with the introduction of Fairy- and Ghost-types this generation, it's much harder for the likes of Terrakion, Garchomp, Keldeo, and Latios to revenge kill, to a point where it's not worth it. Talonflame is an incredible revenge killer, but it requires much more support than your average Scarfer due to its SR weakness, nasty recoil, and its common counters are on almost every team. I feel that without Choice Scarf Genesect, offensive teams in particular will struggle to deal with set up sweepers, because they will be so limited to what they can use to revenge kill. I'm not saying that offensive teams couldn't function without Scarf Genesect, but they'll have a much harder time finding ways to deal with said threats because of this.
To be perfectly honest, I've never really seen or used Physical Shift Gear Genesect, mostly because I've found so much more use out of its other sets. I don't really want to say too much about this set because I don't have hardly any experience, but from what I've heard it's pretty manageable. A lot of it depends on what it runs, but it's always going to be walled by Heatran, and even Landorus-T or Gliscor if you choose to run Iron head over Ice Beam. A +1 Blaze Kick fails to even come close to OHKOing Skarmory, which means that Flamethrower is probably a better option anyway. Speaking of which, it depends heavily on the Attack boost to get going, or else in all honestly I'd rather just use CB or the good ole' fashioned RP all out special set, which has more coverage overall and doesn't need the boost as much because of its insane coverage. Both sets are still phenomenal sweepers, but only the special sweeping sets seem to be the more metagame threatening. Speaking of Choice Band, this is the set that I honestly think is pretty unhealthy for the metagame. While it is still walled by Heatran and the like, a +1 CB U-turn or Iron head is going to dent so many things it's not even funny. On top of that, it can use Flamethrower or Ice beam to bypass bulky defensive Pokemon like Landorus-T, Skarmory, or Aegislash. It's just so easy to wear shit down, to a point where it's almost frustrating. Unlike the Shift Gear set, it doesn't need to set up, and can immediately start spamming +2 ExtremeSpeeds Turn 1 if it wants to. This set may be slower, but it lacks a few more checks because of ExtremeSpeed, and it's no longer walled to hell by Chansey. This set literally does nothing to help the metagame in anyway other than to just make it easier to wear shit down.
All in all, Genesect is putting me on the fence. It has a some great merits in the metagame, but it certainly has its negatives impacts on the metagame, just like all suspects usually have. It's powerful, versatile, unpredictable, brings a ton of momentum to any team, and it's pretty self sufficient. Right now I'm leaning towards keeping it OU, but it is still very earlier in testing, and I could easily change my mind. Nevertheless, I hope people take this post into consideration when choosing to ban Genesect, because I'd hate to it go simply because it can run a multitude of sets. Let's focus more on the sets themselves, and how they influence the metagame, in either a good or bad way, not how Genesect can run a million of them.
Unrelated question, but is there a way to increase deviation somehow cause I'm really close to 1700 ELO but 46 deviation >.>
EDIT: Rock Polish is an inferior Shift Gear unless some moves are incompatible with Shift Gear that are with RP.
EDIT: Rock Polish is an inferior Shift Gear unless some moves are incompatible with Shift Gear that are with RP.
This is the result of bad players and angry fan-kids. What do you expect?
You do have a point, though...Mega Skywalker can easily obtain +2 and calcs are expected to have the "assumed" field position, so it wouldn't be far off for the calcs to utilize the +2 boost.
You came to me asking a question and I'll politely answer. Read above. Skywalker obtains the +2 boost VERY easily, making it an easily obtainable field position therefore not far from the actual truth (much like Stealth Rocks in Gen V and how they were almost always assumed and how they are sometimes this Gen). Mega Lucario forces switches and can easily obtain the boosts it needs. Also, the Pokemon in question needs Maximum health to even try anything, which is a death sentence on its own right. I also find it a bit silly that your calcs use bulky Base Heracles, but that's just me.
One set shouldn't discount Tyranitar's ability to trap ever other set. Not a perfect counter, as you should be careful to see what set it is, but once its in on a suitable move, its checkmate for genesect. As an added bonus, many see the fire blast coming and switch out on pursuit.
I'm going to be real here, I'm against banning MegaLuke because I like a fast and powerful metagame (but I was also against the quickban of Blaziken, so I'm a little weird), but there's almost no good arguments against the ban and people spouting garbage like they did with Khan that I might vote for the ban just because I want to shove it in those morons' faces. Anybody who looks at precedent and compares Lucario sees there's no simple way to justify keeping it around. If anybody wants to argue for keeping Luke, be prepared to give some complex arguments about how keeping mega luke will lead to a metagame that isn't built around players using OP pokemon that need no support or team planning, because that's what most people voting for the ban are trying to avoid. Fanboys won't cut it.
Also, why did this thread deteriorate to a Lucario flame war? Genesect is the much more interesting discussion imo, and a lot of people just don't understand why Deoxys is even up for consideration. Lucario's getting the hammer, I think that's a safe bet, but those other two are still up for grabs and I'm surprised people aren't fighting over them.
Also, why did this thread deteriorate to a Lucario flame war? Genesect is the much more interesting discussion imo, and a lot of people just don't understand why Deoxys is even up for consideration. Lucario's getting the hammer, I think that's a safe bet, but those other two are still up for grabs and I'm surprised people aren't fighting over them.
I would agree completely and I share the same sentiments- I personally like Lucario's glass canon traits and I personally have no trouble dealing with it. But I understand that's just me, and I also understand that smogon generally prevents such pokemon based on precedents. The "inb4 all megas banned" argument just gets to me so much- it's like there are places in the world where IQ values drop instantly when they spot shiny new toys.
Genesect is a bit more controversial than M-Lucario (who I'm fairly certain will get banned), but I feel like he'll also get banned as well. Dexoys-S will probably not be banned.
Genesect was an uber last generation, but what makes this generation different from the previous one? Well.. a few factors. The biggest factor would probably be the rise of priority attacks. Things like Talonflame, Aegislash, Azumarill, and Bisharp all see good usage in OU and they all pack some powerful priority attacks that completely bypasses Genesect and his speed. While Genesect is by no means fragile, he can't take many hits. His most popular set, Choice Scarf, has taken a hit from all of these new (and old) priority users, but Genesect still remains a huge threat. The other new factor in this generation is defog. With it, removing hazards has gotten easier. While Genesect would obviously appreciate hazards if he's going the hyper-offensive route, I would argue that defog has ultimately been a boon for Genesect. Why? Because he likes to U-turn a lot. The removal of hazards means that Genesect is free to U-Turn to his heart's content without taking any SR or spikes damage. This generation has been somewhat of a mixed bag for Genesect, but overall, I'd say Genesect is slightly less effective in this generation than the previous due to the sheer volume of priority users.
Do not let this fool you though, Genesect is still easily a top-threat in the OU metagame. He really does have all of the elements that make for a great pokemon. A great offensive stat on both sides and while a base speed of 99 isn't super fast, it's still a good speed. A massive hugepool that gives him terrific coverage and utility, including STAB U-turn and Gear Shift. A good typing paired with decent defensive stats allow him to tank a hit as so long as it isn't fire. His ability, download, essentially gives him a free choice band or choice spec without any of the downsides. To me, what really throws Genesect into Uber-range is his STAB U-Turn. It hits hard, it's fast, and it allows him to grab momentum at almost no risk. Stuff like Heatran may hard-wall Genesect, but Genesect could always just U-turn on it's face and switch to something that can deal with Heatran.
Genesect was an uber last generation, but what makes this generation different from the previous one? Well.. a few factors. The biggest factor would probably be the rise of priority attacks. Things like Talonflame, Aegislash, Azumarill, and Bisharp all see good usage in OU and they all pack some powerful priority attacks that completely bypasses Genesect and his speed. While Genesect is by no means fragile, he can't take many hits. His most popular set, Choice Scarf, has taken a hit from all of these new (and old) priority users, but Genesect still remains a huge threat. The other new factor in this generation is defog. With it, removing hazards has gotten easier. While Genesect would obviously appreciate hazards if he's going the hyper-offensive route, I would argue that defog has ultimately been a boon for Genesect. Why? Because he likes to U-turn a lot. The removal of hazards means that Genesect is free to U-Turn to his heart's content without taking any SR or spikes damage. This generation has been somewhat of a mixed bag for Genesect, but overall, I'd say Genesect is slightly less effective in this generation than the previous due to the sheer volume of priority users.
Do not let this fool you though, Genesect is still easily a top-threat in the OU metagame. He really does have all of the elements that make for a great pokemon. A great offensive stat on both sides and while a base speed of 99 isn't super fast, it's still a good speed. A massive hugepool that gives him terrific coverage and utility, including STAB U-turn and Gear Shift. A good typing paired with decent defensive stats allow him to tank a hit as so long as it isn't fire. His ability, download, essentially gives him a free choice band or choice spec without any of the downsides. To me, what really throws Genesect into Uber-range is his STAB U-Turn. It hits hard, it's fast, and it allows him to grab momentum at almost no risk. Stuff like Heatran may hard-wall Genesect, but Genesect could always just U-turn on it's face and switch to something that can deal with Heatran.
I deleted all of Gachikaze's posts on the previous page because they're ridiculous and people are swaying from actual discussion. I'd like to ask people to refrain from questioning/opposing/flaming Smogon's tiering policy-- we're not here to discuss policy, we're here to discuss suspects.
Please keep any posts specifically about opinions/observations of the suspects in the meta.
Gachikaze, if you want to make posts about tiering policy, you have to be recognized as a respectable poster and earn the right to post in Policy Review-- but based on your current attitude, I don't think that's happening. Just be glad I've refrained from taking any disciplinary action.
I will now be also deleting all the posts responding to Gachikaze's posts, because every good poster in this thread already understands standard policy and tiering theory-- it doesn't need to be re-iterated for one poster pulling the thread off-topic.
Please keep any posts specifically about opinions/observations of the suspects in the meta.
Gachikaze, if you want to make posts about tiering policy, you have to be recognized as a respectable poster and earn the right to post in Policy Review-- but based on your current attitude, I don't think that's happening. Just be glad I've refrained from taking any disciplinary action.
I will now be also deleting all the posts responding to Gachikaze's posts, because every good poster in this thread already understands standard policy and tiering theory-- it doesn't need to be re-iterated for one poster pulling the thread off-topic.
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Genesect is an amazing Pokemon this gen and is actually more powerful than it was due to a few new toys, eg Shift Gear, which is a more physically orientated version of the Rock Polish set from Gen V. Unfortunately, not many people have caught on to the power of its other sets and everyone just sticks with the Scarf set, diminishing Genes unpredictability somewhat. I'm not really convinced that Gene requires a ban mainly because of the way it's used. The things that keep it away from Ubers for me atm is its Speed, relative frailness (Def lowering Nature), the prevalence of priority and 4mss. 99 Base Speed is not bad by any means but it unfortunately just misses the 100 Club, meaning that even his Scarf set is often being defeated by Pokes above the 100 line who are at +1. Pokemon that use priority completely bypass poor Gene's decent speed and since he's often forced to run a defense lowering nature it means that they often do a buttload of damage to him.
EDIT: I was so focused on his speed I completely forgot about U-Turn, which i suppose is the main reason he's so easy to play with. U-Turn pretty much gives the user the advantage guaranteed. I suppose that's a bad thing for the opponent but Genesect is all too often forced to switch out because it's locked into a different move.
Overall, Genesect has so much potential but most people haven't realised it, making him predictable. If he was being used to his full potential I would probably be swayed to ban him.
Deo-S is an interesting Poke and has many good sets. The Suicide Lead set pretty much guarantees that SR and a layer of Spikes are going up because of that amazing Speed. The offensive set is also good but lacks power, relying on stat-lowerers for power, and is only really good for its surprise factor against newer players.
EDIT: I was so focused on his speed I completely forgot about U-Turn, which i suppose is the main reason he's so easy to play with. U-Turn pretty much gives the user the advantage guaranteed. I suppose that's a bad thing for the opponent but Genesect is all too often forced to switch out because it's locked into a different move.
Overall, Genesect has so much potential but most people haven't realised it, making him predictable. If he was being used to his full potential I would probably be swayed to ban him.
Deo-S is an interesting Poke and has many good sets. The Suicide Lead set pretty much guarantees that SR and a layer of Spikes are going up because of that amazing Speed. The offensive set is also good but lacks power, relying on stat-lowerers for power, and is only really good for its surprise factor against newer players.
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Alright may as well chime in with a post that'll be lost when two more pages are posted twenty minutes after my post.
The XY OU metagame started off pretty nice and diverse and balanced and since then has deteriorated into an offensive orgy shitfest. Generally the best thing to do at this point is cut off the head and remove the best threats (which are broken of course) and see where that leaves us. I don't want to get into the question whether the three put up for testing are the absolute best (they're not), but rather just answer the question whether they're in a tier ahead of everything else in terms of stifling diversity and just shitting on teams.
Mega Luke is easy. Hits way too hard and is fast for this metagame (I'd put "fast" in xy at base 110 right now, anything below that is easily revenged by half an offensive team). It has the gen 4 Mence problem of having two amazing sets that are completely different and each require different counters (Zard has that problem too cough). That kind of threat is almost by default unhealthy for a metagame. Get rid of it and never look back.
Gene is a bit more difficult in that it's not really overpowering. But boy oh boy it's just an absolute pain in the ass. Fast U-turns, Slow U-turns, Iron Heading, Bug Buzzing, weird mixed shit. There's almost nothing it can't do. That's almost just as unhealthy for a metagame as what Luke does. It's an incomparable momentum machine. I have no doubts that this thing will eventually be banned. I say do it now so that we get that much closer to a healthy metagame this early in the process.
D-S kinda sucks. I wasn't going to bother explaining but for the sake of posterity: Hazard sets suck cause there's a ton in the meta that can 2hko it before it gets more than SR while a ton of team archetypes carry defog or a spinner that can't be blocked (drill). The only dangerous set D-S has right now is the 4 attack LO set. It can revenge most of the offensive metagame but is useless against anything bulkier than that. Maybe eventually this thing will be banned once the metagame warps itself a bit to better suit it. But I can't say for certain like I can with Gene. For that reason I say leave it be. If anything, its offensive set is a healthy check on some faster threats in a metagame where Scarf is unviable because of the setup chances it allows.
Aegislash is busted as fuck. Please ban it. Oh sorry it's not a suspect. My bad.
The XY OU metagame started off pretty nice and diverse and balanced and since then has deteriorated into an offensive orgy shitfest. Generally the best thing to do at this point is cut off the head and remove the best threats (which are broken of course) and see where that leaves us. I don't want to get into the question whether the three put up for testing are the absolute best (they're not), but rather just answer the question whether they're in a tier ahead of everything else in terms of stifling diversity and just shitting on teams.
Mega Luke is easy. Hits way too hard and is fast for this metagame (I'd put "fast" in xy at base 110 right now, anything below that is easily revenged by half an offensive team). It has the gen 4 Mence problem of having two amazing sets that are completely different and each require different counters (Zard has that problem too cough). That kind of threat is almost by default unhealthy for a metagame. Get rid of it and never look back.
Gene is a bit more difficult in that it's not really overpowering. But boy oh boy it's just an absolute pain in the ass. Fast U-turns, Slow U-turns, Iron Heading, Bug Buzzing, weird mixed shit. There's almost nothing it can't do. That's almost just as unhealthy for a metagame as what Luke does. It's an incomparable momentum machine. I have no doubts that this thing will eventually be banned. I say do it now so that we get that much closer to a healthy metagame this early in the process.
D-S kinda sucks. I wasn't going to bother explaining but for the sake of posterity: Hazard sets suck cause there's a ton in the meta that can 2hko it before it gets more than SR while a ton of team archetypes carry defog or a spinner that can't be blocked (drill). The only dangerous set D-S has right now is the 4 attack LO set. It can revenge most of the offensive metagame but is useless against anything bulkier than that. Maybe eventually this thing will be banned once the metagame warps itself a bit to better suit it. But I can't say for certain like I can with Gene. For that reason I say leave it be. If anything, its offensive set is a healthy check on some faster threats in a metagame where Scarf is unviable because of the setup chances it allows.
Aegislash is busted as fuck. Please ban it. Oh sorry it's not a suspect. My bad.
Right. Gene has to be locked in on any non-SE move and basically get a guaranteed trap/kill. I'll concede to that. However, the only time you'll ever see that is after gene has revenge killed something, which is its job, because it's waaay too risky to switch in on Gene before he's locked in.
For Deoxys-S, many people mention and only focus on his hazard set. He may be the fastest hazard setter, but that does not necessarily make him the best one. When it comes to hyper offensive teams, Deoxys-S is probably your best bet as a hazard setter, but for overall usage, I'd argue that Deoxys-D is actually better. Deoxys-D may not be super fast, but he's still got a base speed of 90, which is ridiculously fast for a wall. He might not be able to stop Latias from defogging, but he can certainly set up hazards several times in the match due to his longevity. He can also stop the most popular defogger in OU, Mandibuzz, thanks to his speed. That extra bulk really goes a long way. Even if Deoxys-S managed to set up hazards and taunted Latias, the hazards could still be removed at a later time. Or rapid spin.
No, to me, Deoxys-S really shines in his offensive set. He may not be super powerful, but he's got great coverage and a blistering speed tier that allows him to outspeed Scarfed Garchomp and anything slower. Still though, I think Deoxys-S is still OU-worthy. Why? This generation has not been kind to him at all. His support sets now see competition from the likes of Klefki who is not only faster (thanks to prankster), but has better bulk and a great defensive typing. Defog also made it a whole lot easier to remove screens and entry hazards. Sure, Deoxys-S can taunt the would-be defogger to prevent it from occurring, but his poor bulk means that he probably won't stick around long enough to constantly deny the defog. And even though he can stop defog, it's still a problem that Deoxys-S has to worry about. His offensive sets too now face bigger competition than ever thanks to all of those priority users.
While his speed is still undoubtedly great, Deoxys-S is no longer as "fast" as he used to be. The biggest selling point of Deoxys-S was always his speed, and now that that's been compromised, I feel like he doesn't deserve to go to Ubers.
No, to me, Deoxys-S really shines in his offensive set. He may not be super powerful, but he's got great coverage and a blistering speed tier that allows him to outspeed Scarfed Garchomp and anything slower. Still though, I think Deoxys-S is still OU-worthy. Why? This generation has not been kind to him at all. His support sets now see competition from the likes of Klefki who is not only faster (thanks to prankster), but has better bulk and a great defensive typing. Defog also made it a whole lot easier to remove screens and entry hazards. Sure, Deoxys-S can taunt the would-be defogger to prevent it from occurring, but his poor bulk means that he probably won't stick around long enough to constantly deny the defog. And even though he can stop defog, it's still a problem that Deoxys-S has to worry about. His offensive sets too now face bigger competition than ever thanks to all of those priority users.
While his speed is still undoubtedly great, Deoxys-S is no longer as "fast" as he used to be. The biggest selling point of Deoxys-S was always his speed, and now that that's been compromised, I feel like he doesn't deserve to go to Ubers.
Unless its obviously a special variant (which you can usually tell just off the damage U-turn nets once). Anyways, this is one good pokemon that can counter genesect that I wanted to bring up, but that doesn't necessarily make it not broken.
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Lower deviation is actually better. The requirements in the op call for less than 50 deviation. Deviation in this system represents how uncertain the system is about your placement and decreases with more matches played.
Edit: Could I get some clarification on what to do once i qualify? Already meet the requirements for the main ladder, do i just post the screenshots in this thread once I meet the suspect ladder requirement?
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Gary, I disagree with your opinion that looking at the individual sets is the key, and while I agree that versatility alone should not be a reason for a ban, it should be a factor that is considered-- based on how much versatility comes with consequence, and impacts the game.
BW Jirachi may have run 6 different sets last gen, but for the most part, you would always feel relatively comfortable throwing a Heatran, Gastrodon, Magnezone, Hippowdon, Ferrothorn or what have you out in front of it. The consequences for getting the set wrong were relatively small. Even if Jirachi could screw your switch-in, your switch-in wouldn't get THAT screwed, and you'd still have time and le-way to adjust. Also, you'd know almost immediately what its set was and could adjust accordingly.
Genesect is totally different on this front. It's plethora of sets hide their identity pretty damn well, and you could play an entire game without knowing whether you're fighting Scarf or Expert Belt-- often finding out only when Expert Belt decides to one shot the Gyarados you successfully predict-switched into Flamethrower or Iron Head. You could play an entire game not knowing you're fighting mixed Shift Gear-- until it finds the perfect moment to Shift Gear and sweep a team of remaining pokes that was totally prepared to kill a scarf version. The consequence of predicting the set wrong is immediate, and comes with major consequence for the whole game.
Even if you actually know what the set is-- U-Turn makes it a nightmare to predict against. Having a team bludgened to death by U-Turn without being able to fight back is not unusual at all.
Just like with Luke-- Luke has only 2 sets but the "versatility" of just two sets is a major issue when the consequence of getting it wrong is immediate, and often game-ending.
Pokemon is a game of skill based on information management-- and when it's impossible to reasonably manage information on a certain Pokemon, that Pokemon is creating a problem for a skill-based metagame.
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My point was that if you switch in on u-turn you will be conceding a ton of HP & momentum (CBTar is slow as hell) no matter which set Gene is running.
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