XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)

[Flamer]

Of the Three, Genesect definitely has to go. Being the premier bug/ steel pokemon ahead of Scizor should say a lot for its power. His power and coverage are just ridiculous; his ability to fill special or physical roles, depending on your teams needs, makes him fearsome. He's unpredictable, and hits so hard with U-turns to get out of danger in makes him so difficult to stop. He's significantly faster than Scizor too, and you can really feel it. I've struggled to shut him down unless I''m packing Talonflame or fire scarfers, and even then, 71/95/95 can take a hit, especially if you invest in his defences, which you could afford to with the download boosts. That's not even mentioning his Choice options; band explosions and ScarfTurns can be added to the list of options this guy has, and all of it makes him so hard to predict and shut down with any consistency.

Conversly, I've never had much issue with mega Lucario, I don't find him to be meta-breaking or anything. I don't know if just because the teams I build deal with him naturally, but his options are usually a lot narrower than Genesect. You know there's no item, and most likely flash cannon/ CC/ Bullet Punch/ boost. Common pokemon like Azumarill, Gliscor, Sableye and Keldeo (to name a few I've had success with) seem to deal with it. Burns weaken him significantly too. I can't see how MegaLuc is broken to a point where he should be banned from the meta.

As for Deo-S, he's not the threat now that he was. With battle preview, his utility as a lead is nerfed. Any decent attackers with priority offence will deal with him. I don't think he's terrorizing this powerful meta.

I agree with you on the Genesect call. His power and unpredictability are an extreme nuisance and he is very difficult to take down, even when making correct plays.

I dont, however, agree with you on Mega-Luke. While Lucario has only 3 viable sets (SD, NP and mixed) they each have completely different counters. also the pokemon you mentioned cannot reliably deal with any of Lucarios sets, Azumarill is unable to OHKO, Gliscor fears the potential Ice Punch from physical sets and has disappointing special bulk and Keldeo is Naturally outsped and destroyed by CC or Aura Sphere.

 

[rachet67]

Then it looks like we're at an impasse, at least when it comes to how it affects the metagame. I think the fact that it single handedly reduces offensive viability makes it ban worthy, but if you don't, then I don't really have anything to say. Its performance on the other hand is still up to debate. Getting revenge killed by Talonflame isn't that big of a deal, Talonflame's probably the best revenge killer the game has ever seen. The way it gets momentum as a pivot is imo way too abusable. The only way to beat it really is to wear it down, but that takes time, which Genesect can use to its advantage. Add on the pain of having to figure out which moves its running, I believe its broken, and warrents a ban. I still would like to hear counter arguments though.

I was more saying that talonflame can't be revenge killed by genesect than the other way around. I think its understandable that there are different opinions on how healthy genesect is for the metagame as there are several different valid opinions of what a healthy meta should even look like. As someone said before volt-turn in general gains momentum, as does HO, though admittedly gensect is better at most at gaining it. Wearing it down is easier with bulkier teams with numerous counters and with stealth rocks, though due to its nature, its usually one of the last pokemon to be taken out. On HO teams you really have to try to one or two shot it, but again this often happens at the end of the match. Basically I think its one of the best pokemon in the meta (like keldeo was last gen; arguably keldeo was more centralizing), but think that there are enough commonly used pokemon and strategies (that would be used against volt-turn anyways) that make it not too difficult to work around genesect.

 

[Jamesbroispx]

It sounds like you haven't faced many NP variants, which rip right through Gliscor, Sableye, and Keldeo... NP is probably the broken set if you were to pick one, there's so little that can handle it (can expand if required, but the argument has already been dealt with itt).

Well I'll be honest, the NP set has been scarce in my experiences so far, so I can't give a fair comment on it. I'm surprised I haven't seen it often tbh.

I dont, however, agree with you on Mega-Luke. While Lucario has only 3 viable sets (SD, NP and mixed) they each have completely different counters. also the pokemon you mentioned cannot reliably deal with any of Lucarios sets, Azumarill is unable to OHKO, Gliscor fears the potential Ice Punch from physical sets and has disappointing special bulk and Keldeo is Naturally outsped and destroyed by CC or Aura Sphere.

In regards to Keldeo, I run a max speed timid Keldeo, which outspeeds any non-timid/ jolly Luke's. I don't know how common Timid/ Jolly Luke is, but I can't imagine its that common with a base of 112, and I haven't found it to be that common. +252 Adamant Huge Power Azumarill should OHKO Mega Lucario with Superpower all the time, if my calculations are correct. I can usually scout lucario with a switch to gliscor + protect and know how to proceed from there.

 

[Photofluid]

Yes, but Genesect can punish virtually everything it would U-turn on, unlike many of these pivots. Landorus-T? Good luck hurting [insert physically bulky Pokemon here]. Rotom-W? You know how much Volt Switch/Hydro Pump is walled by. Genesect can do something to virtually all of its counters except Heatran with the right set, and that's why you have teammates (taking out Heatran is not that hard), and you can run HP Ground to hurt it each time it switches in if you really want to. With the right set is a key term -- against Genesect, you can rarely be sure.

I argue that unlike lucario, different varieties of Genesect does no differ that much to the level of unpredictable, and while Genesect can checks a bunch of things, he can't check them all at once. Steel/Bug is an amazing defensive typing but not so offensive wise, meaning that its moves are basically unSTABed, Download is a powerful but unreliable ability, if it does not get the boost most of its moves will not hurt, which creates extra constrains on the viable actions out of the four chosen. All these together, I think even if Genesect does got banned, it is nothing to be with its special move pool and U-turn combination.

Then it looks like we're at an impasse, at least when it comes to how it affects the metagame. I think the fact that it single handedly reduces offensive viability makes it ban worthy, but if you don't, then I don't really have anything to say. Its performance on the other hand is still up to debate. Getting revenge killed by Talonflame isn't that big of a deal, Talonflame's probably the best revenge killer the game has ever seen. The way it gets momentum as a pivot is imo way too abusable. The only way to beat it really is to wear it down, but that takes time, which Genesect can use to its advantage. Add on the pain of having to figure out which moves its running, I believe its broken, and warrents a ban. I still would like to hear counter arguments though.

I am not having an accurate estimation on the impact of Genesect on the meta outside providing a powerful pivot by far. However, if massive pivoting does suppress offensive meta, than it may actually be a positive impact. Certainly no one misses the HO days back in BW?

Concerning Genesect, I actually think that outspeeding it is not exactly the most difficult thing on, of course you need to do some testing on its sets foreward, not the most difficult thing in the world IMO. Garchomp beats all non-ice beam variant, Azumarill if Tbolt is missing, random steel for flame thrower.

Oh, add on another counter here, AV Conk deals with any of its sets moderately well, and could not care more about the harrass with drain punch.

 

[rachet67]

I know the OU council is suspecting Deoxys-S for a reason (even banned it from UU), but why is it considered to be too much for OU to handle? Everything that it does can be reversed, especially with defog running amuck (not when doexys is in play, but as soon as it leaves). I understand why doexys-s pretty much forced HO on the entire meta last generation, but can anyone who knows it better than I do explain why it's even being suspected this generation, when it has such a small impact?

 

[Jukain]

I know the OU council is suspecting Deoxys-S for a reason (even banned it from UU), but why is it considered to be to much for OU to handle? Everything that it does can be reversed, especially with defog running amuck (not when doexys is in play, but as soon as it leaves). I understand why doexys-s pretty much forced HO on the entire meta last generation, but can anyone who knows it better than I do explain why it's even being suspected this generation?

Because HO teams can insta-regain this momentum with Defog users, and preventing Deoxys-S from getting up hazards is hard against someone who's competent.

It's simply the best in its class at setting up hazards, and does this job INSANELY well. It makes other things, like the birds, a lot worse, too.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

The thing about Genesect "counters", unless they outspeed a scarfed U-Turn via priority or being frakking fast, it'll just switch out and they'll deal no damage. Conkeldurr for example doesn't care a bit about any of Genesect's attacks (even with the adaptability boost, Genesect's best attacks can barely 2HKO, which turns into a 3HKO if it uses Drain Punch), but the problem is that he could just switch to a skarmory or something that doesn't care about Conk's attack's either. Knock off prevents total freedom by genesect to just bring in a ghost, but there's still no reliable way to take care of Genesect. It can completely destroy your team's offensive ability without any of the downsides of being afraid of defensive pokemon. IMO, it is harder to approach, more annoying, and has a greater destabilizing effect on the metagame than even Lucario. Your only hope is to slowly wear it down and hope you predict correctly.

 

[rachet67]

The thing about Genesect "counters", unless they outspeed a scarfed U-Turn via priority or being frakking fast, it'll just switch out and they'll deal no damage. Conkeldurr for example doesn't care a bit about any of Genesect's attacks (even with the adaptability boost, Genesect's best attacks can barely 2HKO, which turns into a 3HKO if it uses Drain Punch), but the problem is that he could just switch to a skarmory or something that doesn't care about Conk's attack's either. Knock off prevents total freedom by genesect to just bring in a ghost, but there's still no reliable way to take care of Genesect. It can completely destroy your team's offensive ability without any of the downsides of being afraid of defensive pokemon. IMO, it is harder to approach, more annoying, and has a greater destabilizing effect on the metagame than even Lucario. Your only hope is to slowly wear it down and hope you predict correctly.

Well, technically all offensive pokemon will switch out to the appropriate teammate to the counter that was just thrown at it. This is hardly unique to genesect. U-turn helps it avoid having to predict defensive switch ins, but doesn't really help with its counters that are already in much (expect e-belt, but who uses that).

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Well, technically all offensive pokemon will switch out to the appropriate teammate to the counter that was just thrown at it. This is hardly unique to genesect. U-turn helps it avoid having to predict defensive switch ins, but doesn't really help with its counters that are already in much (expect e-belt, but who uses that).

Yeah, but how often have you ever seen a Genesect death fod? Don't include noob matches. No pokemon has as easy of a time escaping to safety as genesect. And no pokemon has as easy a time bringing in the appropriate pokemon. Slap on its revenge killing potential, and you have at very least a slightly broken OU pokemon. At most, an uber.

Also, anybody else glad Lucario arguments have died down, I might be jinxing it, but this thread might actually be useful as opposed to the other ban discussions

 

[Liquidocelot]

after talking it over with a lot of people on showdow i have come to the conclusion that i believe that all of them are broken. Genesect for his way of having virtually no real counters as u-turn makes it so you can easily just leave and chip away at them. Mega lucario because those adaptability attacks are just too powerful for the meta right now and his unpredictability matches that of his power. Lastly deo-s the most controversial becaus eof his offensive capabilities his support capabilities and over all how he can maake the meta un fun right now. Most of all what i hate though is this 1700 req which is near impossible to get up especially for someone like me who plays the game has fun try's to ladder but cant get muh higher then 1500 and has to suffer because he cant make it into the top 40 other then that though i say ban em all for those that do make it.

 

[Jukain]

Well, technically all offensive pokemon will switch out to the appropriate teammate to the counter that was just thrown at it. This is hardly unique to genesect. U-turn helps it avoid having to predict defensive switch ins, but doesn't really help with its counters that are already in much (expect e-belt, but who uses that).

why are you ignoring ebelt, it's one of gene's best sets and an excellent bluff because everyone expects scarf

 

[Photofluid]

I know the OU council is suspecting Deoxys-S for a reason (even banned it from UU), but why is it considered to be too much for OU to handle? Everything that it does can be reversed, especially with defog running amuck (not when doexys is in play, but as soon as it leaves). I understand why doexys-s pretty much forced HO on the entire meta last generation, but can anyone who knows it better than I do explain why it's even being suspected this generation, when it has such a small impact?

I guess it is because Deoxys-S is the kind of pokemon which is very difficult to judge its power level perhaps? Supports do the work in an unobvious manner. I have not meet enough Deoxys-S to safely tell if supports are that powerful, though I personal disregard supports in this offensive-intensed meta as long as it is not some insane prankster spammer, which we have yet to have.

The thing about Genesect "counters", unless they outspeed a scarfed U-Turn via priority or being frakking fast, it'll just switch out and they'll deal no damage. Conkeldurr for example doesn't care a bit about any of Genesect's attacks (even with the adaptability boost, Genesect's best attacks can barely 2HKO, which turns into a 3HKO if it uses Drain Punch), but the problem is that he could just switch to a skarmory or something that doesn't care about Conk's attack's either. Knock off prevents total freedom by genesect to just bring in a ghost, but there's still no reliable way to take care of Genesect. It can completely destroy your team's offensive ability without any of the downsides of being afraid of defensive pokemon. IMO, it is harder to approach, more annoying, and has a greater destabilizing effect on the metagame than even Lucario. Your only hope is to slowly wear it down and hope you predict correctly.

I think people are emphasising U-turn to a level of irrational, it is like Genesect takes no damage from EH and grant an auto protect while switching in. Defog helps the former but Genesect simply switches in too often completely skip the EH coverage, slow switch helps the later but that applies to every single pokemon and is more like a flaw of Voltturn core.

Now, if one really think this is a problem. Please take a look on Tornadus-T, which is the true definition of impossible to worn down with regenerator, which shares similar bulkiness with Genesect, and can also skip a scarf for a life orb and still don't care about the recoil, or forgo it for a more powerful stab in the form of Acrobatic, it really misses fly gem though.

 

[Flamer]

In regards to Keldeo, I run a max speed timid Keldeo, which outspeeds any non-timid/ jolly Luke's. I don't know how common Timid/ Jolly Luke is, but I can't imagine its that common with a base of 112, and I haven't found it to be that common. +252 Adamant Huge Power Azumarill should OHKO Mega Lucario with Superpower all the time, if my calculations are correct. I can usually scout lucario with a switch to gliscor + protect and know how to proceed from there.

All Lucario should run Jolly/Timid. If theyre not, theres something wrong with the player. Azumarill can KO sure but not without taking a buttload from either +2 Flash Cannon (which i think OHKOs) or +2 Close Combat. Gliscor is a good check to it but will be OHKOed by the NP set no problemo.

 

[raiderrocker18]

i wonder how much more difficult it will be to met the req's on the Suspect ladder. fwiw i'm for banning mega luc, about 75% on genesect, and less than 50% on deo-s

 

[hobo bob]

In regards to Keldeo, I run a max speed timid Keldeo, which outspeeds any non-timid/ jolly Luke's. I don't know how common Timid/ Jolly Luke is, but I can't imagine its that common with a base of 112, and I haven't found it to be that common. +252 Adamant Huge Power Azumarill should OHKO Mega Lucario with Superpower all the time, if my calculations are correct. I can usually scout lucario with a switch to gliscor + protect and know how to proceed from there.

+speed nature is essential so that you don't lose to +speed 110s and others around that speed tier. Being able to outspeed things like Gengar and Lat@s is a major strength for Mega-luke.

 

[Aquaslash]

So basically you're telling me no one's ever haxed your counters, you've never made a misstep, you've never accidentally made a team somewhat weak to Mega Lucario.

It's also never ripped huge holes in your team, allowing something else to clean.

Calling bullshit.

I make plenty of missteps, and have often been swept by extremely random things. Yet Lucario was still the one time, where I basically failed to stop the thing that was baton passing to him.

The problem with Mega Lucario is that he can't come right out of the gate swinging. He needs at least one solid turn to Mega Evolve and get set up, and that very turn is where he's most prone to being rendered useless. If on the rare chance I do lose a mon to Mega Luke, it's through close combat, at which he is then swiftly picked off by a number of things I carry. I don't even think my team now is as well built as the one I had in gen 5, but it's still able to handle Mega Luke decently enough.

The real key is not giving him the chance to set up. I tend to not give him the chance, and on the few times I try him out, I don't really get the chance either.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Well, I finally decided to rank in OU showdown (I haven't done anything serious since the ELO switch), and I have lost a total of 8 battles so far, and ALL of them had Genesect. I've used a variety of teams, playing styles, even terrible things specifically to get past it, and literally none of them worked if I fought somebody particularly skilled. I hate that stupid bug/robot/fossil thing and really hope it goes.

On a side note, based solely on the 1000-1500 players I've seen, there is almost no reason to ban the other two, because I haven't lost to either of them yet. I'm hoping that changes as I get closer to 1700, because I've laughed at how bad some players are, but based solely on very recent experience, there is absolutely nothing broken about any pokemon but Genesect.

 

[SansNickel]

Well, I finally decided to rank in OU showdown (I haven't done anything serious since the ELO switch), and I have lost a total of 8 battles so far, and ALL of them had Genesect. I've used a variety of teams, playing styles, even terrible things specifically to get past it, and literally none of them worked if I fought somebody particularly skilled. I hate that stupid bug/robot/fossil thing and really hope it goes.

On a side note, based solely on the 1000-1500 players I've seen, there is almost no reason to ban the other two, because I haven't lost to either of them yet. I'm hoping that changes as I get closer to 1700, because I've laughed at how bad some players are, but based solely on very recent experience, there is absolutely nothing broken about any pokemon but Genesect.

1000-1500 means scrap. Most of them also don't use mega-luke correctly at all (and probably dont use deo-s).

 

[PkMn Gravija]

There are more ways to counter MLuc than people realize. Any one set it runs isn't perfect and can be walled by a number of standard OU mons. Special MLuc can be stopped by a number of pokemon who have either have assault vest (like Conkeldurr) or resist its stabs (like Zapdos). Special MLuc has to choose between priority or better coverage. Physical MLuc is probably the most balanced set and has the very scary adaptability cc, but it has to worry about burns, intimidate, rough skin/rocky helmet, spiky/king's shield, gooey/static/flame body, etc. Mixed MLuc forgoes priority, coverage, and/or boosting for its surprise factor.

Many people have stressed that the counters for each set vary drastically and guessing wrong can often mean you lose 1-6 mons. Some even say he has no true counters or that any would-be counters are a liability otherwise. I'd like to try and show that he can be countered.

+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 252 Def Heracross: 268-316 (74 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Heracross: 258-304 (71.2 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0+ Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 384-452 (136.6 - 160.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

As you can see, Hercules is very tanky and hits like a truck. There were 12 EV's to spare here. You could also do scarf Hera or MHera and have the same potential to switch in on anything it does and kill it. Outside of countering MLuc he can status absorb with guts, take hits like a champ, and hit back hard with cc, eq, megahorn, and rock blast/stone edge.

+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 52 Def Aegislash-Shield: 256-302 (79 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Mega Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 16 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 256-302 (79 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
56+ Atk Expert Belt Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 283-334 (100.7 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If you don't want attack boosting nature and expert belt, you can invest as little as 44 in Atk and rely on shadow sneak to kill it after sacred sword. Special MLuc can't hit you with priority and Physical MLuc can only do it with bullet punch, which opens up the king's shield mind games. Just having this guy on your team should make MLuc hesitate to boost on any potential free turns (if you switch in when he boosts, he either switches out or dies). You could also do air balloon/shuca berry if you were afraid of eq ruining your day. With leftovers you don't need any Def/Sp Def EV's to survive after SR.

+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Crunch vs. 240 HP / 56 Def Slowbro: 330-390 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (as long as SR is down you can beat it)
+2 252 SpA Mega Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 240 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 294-346 (75.1 - 88.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
204+ SpA Slowbro Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 282-332 (100.3 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Slowbro when EV'd properly can survive and OHKO back. With regenerator you aren't crippled if he chooses to switch out after attacking. He isn't SR proof physically, but being able to counter both sets is impressive. He is a good pivot outside of countering MLuc hitting with impressive fire/fight(or psyshock)/water/ice coverage.

+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 232 HP / 192 Def Volcarona: 312-368 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 177-209 (47.9 - 56.6%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 232 HP / 192 SpD Volcarona: 148-175 (40.1 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (If you choose to prioritize countering Special MLuc)
16+ SpA Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 332-392 (118.1 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

You can switch in on Special MLuc and quiver dance+roost/fiery dance or just kill it asap. Physical MLuc requires Stone Edge to kill you. 68 EV's in speed. Bulky Volc shouldn't be underestimated. Being able to set up on one of the best special sweepers in the game says a lot. Flame body hax is also rq inducing frustration just waiting to happen.

+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Amoonguss: 296-349 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Amoonguss: 370-436 (85.6 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 56+ SpD Amoonguss: 376-444 (87 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Amoongus has regenerator and spore. He can take the strongest hits on both sides (most of the time) and get off a spore. You could specialize him to take hits better from whatever side you fear more. Phys MLuc w/o ice punch can be dealt with even under SR. Not really a true counter, but he does force him out w/o dying in the process. If he doesn't switch out, you have a free switch in to whatever can normally revenge it (1 turn of sleep is guaranteed and 33% chance he wakes up turn 2)

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 132 Def Nidoking: 150-177 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Mega Lucario Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 132 Def Nidoking: 188-222 (51.3 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Nidoking: 232-274 (63.3 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Nidoking: 58-69 (15.8 - 18.8%) -- possible 6HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 132 Def Nidoking: 102-120 (27.8 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 294-348 (104.6 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

For fun I made a scarf set that can switch in on what most MLuc's would run and OHKO back with Nidoking. If you really try, you can make a lot of mons work in this regard like Staraptor or Victini. This set isn't meant to be taken seriously as an OU viable Nidoking. It is just something that illustrates the point that there are more possible counters out there the community at large may not be aware of. Some who might actually have merit outside of countering MLuc.

A lot of people in this thread are focusing on how hard it is to safely switch into. I think not enough attention is being paid to the fact that while certainly devastating once it gets that +2, MLuc is not too hard to revenge kill with 70/88/70 defenses and 3 very common weaknesses. Even when it does get that free turn/+2 and killed a mon on a wrong guess it is very stoppable. Special MLuc (or Phys w/o Espeed) can't sweep if they have semi healthy TalonFlame. Any Garchomp you face could be scarfed. Breloom can mach punch you to death from full hp. Greninja outspeeds and KO's with hp fire. Scarf Gene is omnipresent. Trick Room teams make his speed a liability. There are plenty of revenge killers capable of stopping him after he gets going. Lucario's base speed also isn't that great until it evolves successfully, which can be very difficult to do against offensive teams.

Personally I don't want to see him banned and would rather deal with one really powerful mega per team like MLuc than deal with a team of unrestricted mons like gene, thundurus (prankster t-wave hax...), deo-s, etc. I think most good teams deal with MLuc without having any real dedicated counters anyway, but that is just my opinion. I just don't think a ban is necessary at this point in time.

You do realise that all of these defensively biased ev spreads are so over centralising to the point that they are solely for mega lucario and pretty much make the offensively based pokemon useless in every other situation right?

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

1000-1500 means scrap. Most of them also don't use mega-luke correctly at all (and probably dont use deo-s).

That was mostly directed at Genesect, I think we can safely assume Lucario will be banned. And I think everybody knows the lower ranks are full of idiots. I almost lost to one person because his Machamp had a fucking fire blast. WTF? I knew noobs were bad, but I had no idea they were that unrealistic

 

[rachet67]

Well, I finally decided to rank in OU showdown (I haven't done anything serious since the ELO switch), and I have lost a total of 8 battles so far, and ALL of them had Genesect. I've used a variety of teams, playing styles, even terrible things specifically to get past it, and literally none of them worked if I fought somebody particularly skilled. I hate that stupid bug/robot/fossil thing and really hope it goes.
On a side note, based solely on the 1000-1500 players I've seen, there is almost no reason to ban the other two, because I haven't lost to either of them yet. I'm hoping that changes as I get closer to 1700, because I've laughed at how bad some players are, but based solely on very recent experience, there is absolutely nothing broken about any pokemon but Genesect.

Its not like having genesect is a win condition by any means. This is in stark contrast to mega khan and lucario. I've won ton's of battles against players in the 2200s (before the ladder restructuring) who've used genesect. It's really not like someone with a genesect automatically wins, or even close to it. Gensect isn't nearly as threatening and limiting on teambuilding as standard sweepers such as lucario and really just takes time to wear down and make smart plays a.k.a. giving genesect the least available free u-turns (or more if you have stealth rock and suitable counters to their other pokes). As long as you have a few pokemon that don't mind u-turn with reasonable bulk your fine. In the end if its the last pokemon, the scarf variant can't do anything (and the shift gear genesect is not to difficult to wall).

 

[Numera]

I really think mega luke's sheer power is unhealthy for the meta if you ask me, it just wreaks almost every wall like mega Kang did, so ban it i say.

Genesect being banned is a joke. Its probably all th lower ranking players whineing because they cant beat it. Higher ranking players work around Genesect easily, as they are smart and know what they are doing. Theyll also probs use Hetran alot. Genesect isnt OP, just good.

Deo S is also joke, banning it would be stupid. Hazard leads are dieing out now and as an offenisve set its not too dangerous if you know what to do.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Its not like having genesect is a win condition by any means. This is in stark contrast to mega khan and lucario. I've won ton's of battles against players in the 2200s (before the ladder restructuring) who've used genesect. It's really not like someone with a genesect automatically wins, or even close to it. Gensect isn't nearly as threatening and limiting on teambuilding as standard sweepers such as lucario and really just takes time to wear down and make smart plays a.k.a. giving genesect the least available free u-turns (or more if you have stealth rock and suitable counters to their other pokes). As long as you have a few pokemon that don't mind u-turn with reasonable bulk your fine. In the end if its the last pokemon, the scarf variant can't do anything (and the shift gear genesect is not to difficult to wall).

Of course its not a win condition, I was just reporting what I saw. Remember that I'm a strictly average battler (I have a bad habit of making stupid mistakes), but trying to deal with Genesect is significantly harder than any other pokemon currently in the metagame (for me). I shouldn't have too much trouble getting to 1700, but I imagine I'll have much better luck in the ladder Genesect is banned in (though that one will hopefully have a higher quality opponent).

I really think mega luke's sheer power is unhealthy for the meta if you ask me, it just wreaks almost every wall like mega Kang did, so ban it i say.

Genesect being banned is a joke. Its probably all th lower ranking players whineing because they cant beat it. Higher ranking players work around Genesect easily, as they are smart and know what they are doing. Theyll also probs use Hetran alot. Genesect isnt OP, just good.

Deo S is also joke, banning it would be stupid. Hazard leads are dieing out now and as an offenisve set its not too dangerous if you know what to do.

I love how you said things that other people have said (and been successfully argued against), without adding a single thing to the discussion.

If it were just power, we would be talking about Aegislash, not Lucario.

If your going to insult me, at least spell whining correctly. Read my anti-genesect posts and give some useful rebuttle like rachet67 does. I ain't joking when I say I want Genesect gone, and it ain't because I'm a bad player (I'm not the best, but I am still pretty good).

Also, come up with better smack downs than "is a joke." I'm still undecided about Deoxys, but if you're going to post on this thread, at least address the opposition's points. I gained literally nothing from reading your post, except that proving how broken Genesect is will be harder than I thought (and I knew it'd be hard) with people like you not even listening.

 

[SansNickel]

I really think mega luke's sheer power is unhealthy for the meta if you ask me, it just wreaks almost every wall like mega Kang did, so ban it i say.

Genesect being banned is a joke. Its probably all th lower ranking players whineing because they cant beat it. Higher ranking players work around Genesect easily, as they are smart and know what they are doing. Theyll also probs use Hetran alot. Genesect isnt OP, just good.

Deo S is also joke, banning it would be stupid. Hazard leads are dieing out now and as an offenisve set its not too dangerous if you know what to do.

How do you "work around" u-turn? Unless you constantly have something on the field that threatens it or you constantly double switch into something that outspeeds and KOs it, there's not much you can do to "work around" genesect. This isn't small chip damage it's STAB base 70 off of a possible +1 base 120 attack and gives you momentum.

 

[Shroomisaur]

All I have to say is M-Luke is so incredibly frail, it won't last a second in Ubers. If Lucario gets the boot, so should genesect.

Just remember that how well a Pokemon would do in Ubers doesn't mean anything to this discussion, and neither does what happens to either other suspect!

U-turn helps it avoid having to predict defensive switch ins, but doesn't really help with its counters that are already in much (expect e-belt, but who uses that).

A lot of people, actually. It's one of Genesect's best sets and really showcases the main reason I believe Genesect needs to be sent up to Ubers. Every single Genesect can simply spam U-Turn the whole match and leave you guessing if it's Choiced or not. Guess wrong either way, and you lose a Pokemon. It's that simple. Ever thought that Gene was a scarfer and just lost a mon when Gene suddenly changed moves? I couldn't agree more with Chou's post:

Pokemon is a game of skill based on information management-- and when it's impossible to reasonably manage information on a certain Pokemon, that Pokemon is creating a problem for a skill-based metagame.

Genesect doesn't have to be "overwhelmingly" powerful to be broken, or a "win condition", I'm tired of seeing that argument. Genesect has amazing coverage, power, unpredictability, and the ability to simply force winning matchups thanks to his powerful U-Turn. Genesect threatens a huge number of Pokemon, and your opponent has to either sacrifice their current Pokemon to Genesect's excellent coverage moves, or sacrifice momentum by switching.

Speaking of that, the Mega Lucario discussions are going the way of Mega Kangaskahn... everyone's digging up anything that can possibly counter it and stating that there are "plenty" of ways to counter it. Go check out the "victim of the week" thread, and then ask yourself how many of those can stand up to both physical AND special Mega Luke. There are very few counters to it, and most of them are easily worn down throughout the match by SR (think Zapdos, Gyara, Volcarona, etc). Also, the fact that there are plenty of checks/revenge killers doesn't mean anything, because the same is true of all Uber Pokemon as well. Mega Luke simply has too much power and when you combine that with great speed, typing, and priority, it's just too much.