XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)

[Bizdis]

And then, bam, Deo-S takes out two of your teammates because you thought it would be the hazards lead while in fact, it's an LO set with monstrous coverage and just about enough power to KO most of the relevant offensive threats. It simply murders offensive teams, and contrary to popular belief, it can handle itself vs. slower, bulkier teams. Yes, it can't get past some certain walls, but it's not meant to be. It's a revenge-killer/cleaner, not a wallbreaker. Yes, it's susceptible to priority, but so are lots of other relevant Pokemon.

Deo-S has enough versatility, offenses and speed to be too good for OU, and I think it is.

No. Deoxys-S can't kill Dragonite 100% to 0%, and it loses almost all momentum when it uses Psycho Boost or Superpower, which are its most powerful moves, and quite frankly, not running priority to take out fast threats on an offensive team is a terrible choice, so it is something that we should account for. I fully understand if you get finished off by Deoxys-S when your team is weakened, but, regardless of coverage, you should be able to deal with something with base 95 Atk and SAtk being sent out straight off the bat.

EDIT: I sounded a bit brash in the post above, apologies. Anyway, if your team really stuggles with Deoxys-S, then it does have a hard-counter for all of its sets: Aegislash.
The life orb set will not kill things outright that don't have a 4x weakness or a psychic weakness, which is the majority of the metagame, so although it is something to be prepared for, it won't outright "murder" any kind of team.

 

[BurningMan]

Most of its sets (bar shift gear) play very similarly though, and have the same general hard counters. Most physical scarfs cary ice beam to deal with physical walls such as landorus-t, and most special scarfs scout with u-turn similarly to the physical scarf (I would say the special scarf is walled by more pokes in general). Even shift gear gensect is walled by most of the same pokemon that wall the other sets. I don't see how e-belt can be used as an argument for banning it, as all it has is the surprise factor, and after that its not as good as the other sets.

The only hard counter is heatran and there is virtually nothing outside of it that can wall all of Genesects sets. LO can wreck absolutly everything depending on the moves it runs and usually once you find out what these moves are its already to late unless you try to scout its move set which can lead to even more devastating results if you predict wrong.The fact that physical and special scarf sets play almost identical early game is exactly what makes it dangerous.
E-belt is fucking awesome on a Pokemon whose flagship set is choice scarf because it is virtually indistinguishable from Scarf if you play it right since it is really easy to bluff scarf early game and then wreck something when your opponent doesn't expects it and its not just the surprise factor that makes it useful due to genesects exceptional coverage EB is often just a slightly weaker LO that isn't causing recoil.

Band set and belt set is sufficiently predictable by analyzing team comp, or else you are simply building the team in a sub par way.

In fact, the better a team is, the more predictable it is. This is because the game is not perfectly balanced and not everything is viable. Most sets of Genesect outside the scarf one tend to be slightly below the top level of play, and is not really used quite the same way as the scarf set. The slight difference is detectable.

how is my team sub-par when it can sucessfully trick people into making the mistake to think that they know my set? You simply don't know it you can guess which set it is true, but maybe i want you to do exactly that and this is how a seemingly sub-par choice turns into an excellent one.

Most teams in high level play usually feature an unconventional set simply because being completly predictable isn't going to win you a match and a sucessful ruse can often make or break a game. Genesect is just too strong and versatile at the same time to be healthy for the meta game it can actually beat almost every pokemon with the right set of course it can't beat all pokemon at once and its not like mega lucario which can sweep 90% of the meta game effortlessly, but it is just so unpredictable that it can usually cause enough damage to prepare a sweep for a team mate without much effort and strong enough too clean late game once its few reliable checks and counters are weakend/gone.

 

[rachet67]

The only hard counter is heatran and there is virtually nothing outside of it that can wall all of Genesects sets. LO can wreck absolutly everything depending on the moves it runs and usually once you find out what these moves are its already to late unless you try to scout its move set which can lead to even more devastating results if you predict wrong.The fact that physical and special scarf sets play almost identical early game is exactly what makes it dangerous.
E-belt is fucking awesome on a Pokemon whose flagship set is choice scarf because it is virtually indistinguishable from Scarf if you play it right since it is really easy to bluff scarf early game and then wreck something when your opponent doesn't expects it and its not just the surprise factor that makes it useful due to genesects exceptional coverage EB is often just a slightly weaker LO that isn't causing recoil.

You can pretty easily tell if its physical scarf, special scarf, or banded off the damage that u-turn deals. This generally happens on very early match, as all sets, bar shift gear, start off with u-turning. E-scarf is a little slow, which is compounded by its low defensive stats and hasty/naive, and since it can't control its download boost, its often underwhelming once its discovered to be running e-belt.

 

[haunter]

Oh and, for those who're concerned about not being able to make the requirements on the suspect ladder, just keep laddering and don't worry about it. We're considering lowering the rating requirements for that ladder. We'll make sure that the voting pool consists of at least 50-80 users.

 

[WebBowser]

Oh and, for those who're concerned about not being able to make the requirements on the suspect ladder, just keep laddering and don't worry about it. We're considering lowering the rating requirements for that ladder. We'll make sure that the voting pool consists of at least 50-80 users.

You truly are a dealer in hope good sir

The only hard counter is heatran and there is virtually nothing outside of it that can wall all of Genesects sets. LO can wreck absolutly everything depending on the moves it runs and usually once you find out what these moves are its already to late unless you try to scout its move set which can lead to even more devastating results if you predict wrong.The fact that physical and special scarf sets play almost identical early game is exactly what makes it dangerous.
E-belt is fucking awesome on a Pokemon whose flagship set is choice scarf because it is virtually indistinguishable from Scarf if you play it right since it is really easy to bluff scarf early game and then wreck something when your opponent doesn't expects it and its not just the surprise factor that makes it useful due to genesects exceptional coverage EB is often just a slightly weaker LO that isn't causing recoil.

Actually, just about any bulky fire can at least check if not outright counter most gene sets. Rotom-H and bulky band Entei are standouts in this regard. As far as bluffing a scarf goes, a fast protect user can completely put a stop to those kinds of shenanigans. Step 1, use protect. If it uses a non-u-turn move, swap to something that does not fear it to see if it's choice locked. Otherwise, attempt to hit it with something it fears. If it goes first, you know it's scarfed, otherwise, you now have a damaged genesect that you now know is slow.

 

[Farpafraf]

I'm going to add this to the OP but: "Mega Pokemon are supposed to be stronger" is not an argument and will not be tolerated. If you see a post that says that-- please link me and I'll delete it. Thanks.

If a Mega-evolution isn't supposed to be stronger than a regular pokémon then after M-Lucario we should ban M-Pinsir after him M-Mawille after him M-Charizards after him M-Venusaur after him M-Medicham(and there will be tons of other ban-worthy M-Evos in the next games).
If your goal is to preserve the metagame as it was before the introduction of M-Evos I can see your point,what I really don't get is why "Mega Pokemon are supposed to be stronger" shouldn't even be presented as an argument....

 

[Ajwf]

You completely missed his point. People were saying that megas were made to wreck everything, which is not a legitimate counterargument to the ideals of a competitive metagame that has balance.

 

[Jarrod]

As a competitive player who prides himself on building balanced teams, I would like to express my thoughts on the suspects.

Mega Lucario is a pokemon that I trialed on a team in the early gen 6 days, and it performed wonderfully. After a mega evolution, it outspeeds many of the fastest mons and severely damages most pokemon. Apparently Talonflame (among the likes of Gyarados and Zaptos) is listed by several people as a counter to M-Lucario. True, in most cases Talonflame in a 1v1 with M-Lucario will emerge the victor; a feat which very few other pokes can boast. I don't believe that is a suitable anti-ban argument. Put it this way, Crobat (a common stallbreaker of Gen 5 OU and current defogger on my Gen 6 OU team) has the ability to 1HKO Shaymin-Sky (an undoubtedly Uber pokemon that would be severely broken if allowed to wander down into the OU). YES, Mega Lucario can be beaten 1v1, but any player with even a little bit of skill will know that a faster poke with fire moves and a priority Brave Bird is not wise to come up against, just like a Crobat with Brave Bird is not the ideal opponent for Shaymin-Sky. Hence why Shaymin-Sky is UBER and not UU. Lucario's checks and counters are very few, making it perhaps (in my opinion) too easy to build a team around him. We all know the power and ability that make this pokemon great, I don't need to restate this. People who argue not to ban Mega-Luc have produced several numbers for reliable checks, most of which do not account for it's unpredictability (due to the incredible viability of special and physical sets), hazards and damage by other team members. In an ideal world where physical Mega-Luc is sent out first against a physically defensive Zaptos, Mega-Luc is confidently checked - in the real world, Mega-Lucario will come in when the time is right, and there are many opportunities in the current OU. Anyone who has battled competitively knows that Mega-Lucario can tear up the place even in the hands of a relatively inexperienced user. This pokemon should be banned. We Lucario fans can take solace in the fact that it is Lucarionite and not Lucario that will be banned from the OU if the suspect testing does not rule in it's favor.

Genesect is a pokemon I will admit to having a negative bias against. In the BW metagame, this thing was so difficult to pin down. This generation however, I've been managing fairly well, largely due to my greater battling experience and team building options. I must say though, that in order to handle this pokemon, I rely heavily on prediction and my Mega-Charizard-X (which is among the top threats of the OU). Heatran is a reliable check, but some players including myself would rather not dip into the pool of legendary pokemon --> this however, is not a relevant argument to ban Genesect, as the pokemon metagame does not revolve around my personal choices. Similar to Mega Luc, Genesect can run different sets that have different checks and counters. People not packing Heatran, Charizard-X or something similar will ultimately rack of tonnes of damage from Genesect's wide coverage and powerful U-Turns. As many people have said, Genesect can fit onto every non-stall team due to download, coverage and the hit and run strategies that remain popular in Gen 6. Some have mentioned Rotom-W as a check/counter to genesect - While I agree to some I that the washing machine can gain momentum by volt-switching on a faster U-turn, I bare in mind that Rotom-W will take heavy damage from a download boosted U-turn, making it rather unreliable to take on Genesect. While Genesect can be handled by more pokes than Mega-Lucario, I still believe it is broken in today's OU metagame. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Genesect passes this round of testing.

Deoxys-S is fast - we all know what it does. Hazards, Dual Screens and LO offense are all viable options. Dedicated hazard leads are far less effective these days, due to the defog buff and some reliable rapid spinners (spinners may work for some, but defog is the main reason), which is obviously bad news for Deoxys-S. However, Let's not forget that not every team packs defog (or for that matter, can utilize it appropriately) and spin blocking is not the hardest task for a balanced hazard-setting team. The mere threat of defog seems to have deterred hazard setters, but frankly, teams who can't deal with hazards would almost certainly lose against the hazard support of Deo-S with decent back-up. As for the dual-screens set, Deo-S is pretty excellent, but it would be hard for me to say that setting up screens whilst taunting or laying down rocks makes a pokemon broken (so I won't focus too much on this). The life-orb set seems to work quite well, we all know the general idea of the set and the draw-backs of common moves. It makes a great revenge killer, as do several other non-suspected pokes. Outspeeding several boosting pokemon and scarfers is a notable advantage, which certainly places Deo-S at the top of the list. Whether or not the fastest of all pokemon is broken ultimately depends on the way the metagame shapes out after all the dust settles - Defog is currently the best anti-ban argument. If Deo-S is not banned this round, I won't be surprised.

Good luck everyone with meeting the requirements to vote :)

 

[Photofluid]

As a competitive player who prides himself on building balanced teams, I would like to express my thoughts on the suspects.
Genesect is a pokemon I will admit to having a negative bias against. In the BW metagame, this thing was so difficult to pin down. This generation however, I've been managing fairly well, largely due to my greater battling experience and team building options. I must say though, that in order to handle this pokemon, I rely heavily on prediction and my Mega-Charizard-X (which is among the top threats of the OU). Heatran is a reliable check, but some players including myself would rather not dip into the pool of legendary pokemon --> this however, is not a relevant argument to ban Genesect, as the pokemon metagame does not revolve around my personal choices. Similar to Mega Luc, Genesect can run different sets that have different checks and counters. People not packing Heatran, Charizard-X or something similar will ultimately rack of tonnes of damage from Genesect's wide coverage and powerful U-Turns. As many people have said, Genesect can fit onto every non-stall team due to download, coverage and the hit and run strategies that remain popular in Gen 6. Some have mentioned Rotom-W as a check/counter to genesect - While I agree to some I that the washing machine can gain momentum by volt-switching on a faster U-turn, I bare in mind that Rotom-W will take heavy damage from a download boosted U-turn, making it rather unreliable to take on Genesect. While Genesect can be handled by more pokes than Mega-Lucario, I still believe it is broken in today's OU metagame. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Genesect passes this round of testing.

Prediction is exactly the way one counters Genesect, every single Genesect matchup is a prediction game for both side of the player. Basically Genesect, and to a less extent every single Voltturn user, is playing a very different game compared to the rest of the meta. Checking them is less about team build but more about mind-games.

On the other hand, every single other Genesect build outside the scarf one can be pretty much deemed inferior in general. I have yet to seen any argument about the actual execution of those sets.

Btw, I really think people should try out some other pivots, notably the TTL trial, before making quick arguments about Voltturn as a whole.

 

[Iodic Acid]

Well, my argument tend to be counter arguments against the pro-ban side, which I think is overstating the power of Genesect. If you actually read through those pro-ban posts so many people actually consider Genesect as some costless momentum generator which also OHKO the entire meta, I do the analysis for the purpose to disprove this idea.

In fact, so many of the flaws on Genesect are simply omited, awful offensive typing, lack of high BP moves, average defensive stat without investment, below the average speed and hence scarf reliant. While the impact of a resoundingly vast movepool is heavily overstated when it does not actually got a STAB, and download just bearly compensates it.

Btw, MGengar was banned mainly for PerishTag and T-Bond, and to a less extend hyper revenge killing, these things are obviously broken but unnoticed because few people actually knows gengar got perish song and destiny bond, in the later case, Dbond also happen to be a difficult strategy to pull off and required some experiences.

Which is why I agreed with your analysis. In fact I'm still not sure whether you're against banning it or not. Yes, hyperbolic statements about Genesect are, well, just hyperbole. Its ability to evade its counters while threatening most non-specially defensive pokes, and even some specially defensive ones, is still too good for OU.

Gengarite was banned even in OU where its PerishTag set was unavailable.

Scarf Genesect is a prediction game for both sides, but don't pretend for an instant that that makes it a fair game. It's rock paper scissors where if Genesect wins, it kills something or puts in a counter, and if the opposing mon wins, it trades damage with a 105/157.5 base power bug move against its counter. This is not the same game you're playing with other VoltTurners.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

If a Mega-evolution isn't supposed to be stronger than a regular pokémon then after M-Lucario we should ban M-Pinsir after him M-Mawille after him M-Charizards after him M-Venusaur after him M-Medicham(and there will be tons of other ban-worthy M-Evos in the next games).
If your goal is to preserve the metagame as it was before the introduction of M-Evos I can see your point,what I really don't get is why "Mega Pokemon are supposed to be stronger" shouldn't even be presented as an argument....

Mega Pokemon can be stronger, but if they're instant-win buttons, they deserve to be banned. Mega Kangaskhan was not just "stronger than other Pokemon," it was borderline unstoppable. Mega Gengar's Perish Trapping set, and the functionality of Shadow Tag, meant it was just too effective in the hands of a good player.

Mega Lucario is not as ridiculously strong as Mega Kangaskhan, but it's still very hard to counter and can easily sweep teams with no support.

Slippery slope arguments, i.e. "we'll just keep banning megas until there's none left" are just misguided. Mega Pinsir is strong, but has a lot of checks and has a quadruple weakness to stealth rock; it might get suspect tested, but I really doubt it will get banned. X-zard is an exceptionally good dragon dancer, and is more likely to get banned than Pinsirite, but again I really doubt it. Y-zard has a quad weakness to rocks and only has 100 base speed. Mawile is bulky and has enormous attack, but is slow and relies on Sucker Punch. Venusaur is the only defensive mega we got, aside from Scizor, and as hard to kill as it is, it's still killable. Medicham, as much as I like it, and as good a wall-breaker as it is, is nowhere near ban-worthy, it's just too slow and is checked too easily.

 

[Albacore]

We should stop replying to the stupid "All Mevos will get banned if we carry on like this!" posts. We've already explained the many, many things wrong with that statement, and the posts will al get deleted anyway.

As far as bluffing a scarf goes, a fast protect user can completely put a stop to those kinds of shenanigans. Step 1, use protect. If it uses a non-u-turn move, swap to something that does not fear it to see if it's choice locked. Otherwise, attempt to hit it with something it fears. If it goes first, you know it's scarfed, otherwise, you now have a damaged genesect that you now know is slow.

That's a good point, but you need to have a Pokemon with Protect facing Genesect in order to make that strategy work, which is uncertain to say the least. You can't actually switch your Protect user into Genesect since it will probably U-Turn or deal a lot of damage. And if people start running Protect on Pokemon which don't usually need it just to help deal with Genesect (as opposed to actually countering it) you have yourself an overcentralized metagame. You might as well run HP Fire on random things.

 

[Wumgum]

This is not the same game you're playing with other VoltTurners.

things Genesect can do:

U-Turn
using a set up move (RP/SG)
using Thunderbolt, Ice Beam etc.


things Thundurus-I can do:

U-Turn / Volt Switch
using a set up move (NP)
using Thunderbolt, Superpower etc.
using a status move (Taunt / Thunder Wave)

How is this not the same?

 

[Mood4food77]

thunderus-I does not get a free +1 boost for switching in

 

[Wumgum]

He was talking about the prediction game for both sides.

 

[sidakarya]

He was talking about the prediction game for both sides.

That is relevant to that prediction game.

Getting an automatic boost to complement whatever attacking stat your near-flawless coverage will use means, it's an immediate threat to countless things, that much of the time compels you to switch out and discourages staying in. Rotom-W, Thundurus, Scizor and the like can Volt-Turn, sure, but they can threaten/revenge a more limited number of Pokémon, because they lack that combination of boundless movepool and instant boost.

Of course, U-Turn itself is what gives you all the advantage in any situation, as you can just run to a counter for whatever is on the other side, and if you've got an Attack boost, it's taking probably at least 25% health even on resists. Only Genesect can pull all the need for prediction out of getting momentum, as a grand-total of two Pokémon (AV-Conk and Heatran) can switch in safely to any attack, and neither of them have reliable recovery.

 

[Iodic Acid]

The structure is the same but the payoffs are vastly different. I know you were just bringing up one example out of many, but Thundurus, specifically, encounters a significant hiccup if it tries to use Volt Switch, because a ground-type stops the switch AND its STAB move AND Thunder Wave. It stands a pretty reasonable chance of actually losing momentum unless it uses U-turn, which, well, obviously doesn't compare to Genesect's.

 

[Photofluid]

Which is why I agreed with your analysis. In fact I'm still not sure whether you're against banning it or not. Yes, hyperbolic statements about Genesect are, well, just hyperbole. Its ability to evade its counters while threatening most non-specially defensive pokes, and even some specially defensive ones, is still too good for OU.

Gengarite was banned even in OU where its PerishTag set was unavailable.

Scarf Genesect is a prediction game for both sides, but don't pretend for an instant that that makes it a fair game. It's rock paper scissors where if Genesect wins, it kills something or puts in a counter, and if the opposing mon wins, it trades damage with a 105/157.5 base power bug move against its counter. This is not the same game you're playing with other VoltTurners.

I am in general against the ban of Genesect....

Well, so things boil down that Genesect's only advantage against other Voltturn user is a more powerful U-turn, and outside that it even gets inferior coverage move when the prediction goes wrong(as shown in my analysis). Basically an extreme approach of offensive Voltturner in terms of both risk and reward, and we have to keep in mind how much it sacrifices for it, it is a horrible sweeper. It sweeps in Gen V simply because that was a stupid meta with everything frail as hell, which is in turn, a result of the HO nature.

The kami/cloud trial actually take a similar approach, notably Tornadus-T, which got a regenerator and is passive-damage-proof. I am now trying to replace Genesect with it on the suspect ladder with aecrobatic/superpower/u-turn/knock off, I am missing the fly gem so much....., anyway, the result is okay and it actually functions like a more forgiving version of genesect both to me and my opponent.

One side note about Thundurus-A, any earth switch in risk taking heavy damage if not OHKO from HP ice(especially when most are so frail on the special side).

Thundurus-A also has the advantage in the sense that it can invest on its volt switch, which in terms of stability may be even better than the download, another similar trait is focus miss, but ofc the risk of focus miss is extremely anti-competitive because that does not even involve mind games (though the probability probably stays similar).

Also, this gen actually gives the trial a new toy in the form of Knock off, a very spamable move.

Another note, Mega-Mene, which I just met a team built around it and does really well, is another "genesect" to be concerned, and it gets Overheat as a powerful hit and run poke. The one I met was not building things that way though.

Overheat/choice Infernape is also included but I don't think anyone is actually using it that way.

A bit off-topic, but I list out these pokemon just because I hope they are the thing you are actually comparing Genesect with, not things like utility Rotom or tank Landorus-T. These pokemon share traits which include fast and to different extent powerful hit and run, and will be backfired due to misprediction, which includes choice-locked, stat drops from superpower and overheat, or even the misses of focus miss, knock off also does pathetic damage and can mean a free switch to any Mega, especially when you are choice locked.

Overall, I personal don't see Genesect outclass them that much due the higher risk involved and the fact that it does not sweep. However I must admit the latter point may be a bit squishy, and if Genesect is actually banned, its sweeping potential should be the only reason(shift gear/Choice Band Extreme Speed spam).

 

[Jukain]

Prediction is exactly the way one counters Genesect, every single Genesect matchup is a prediction game for both side of the player. Basically Genesect, and to a less extent every single Voltturn user, is playing a very different game compared to the rest of the meta. Checking them is less about team build but more about mind-games.

On the other hand, every single other Genesect build outside the scarf one can be pretty much deemed inferior in general. I have yet to seen any argument about the actual execution of those sets.

Btw, I really think people should try out some other pivots, notably the TTL trial, before making quick arguments about Voltturn as a whole.

Look, if prediction is the only way to beat a Pokemon against which the risk for you (it going for the coverage move) is greater than the risk for the opponent (to use U-turn and gain momentum), then the Pokemon is utterly unfair. Technically I can beat Darkrai with 'prediction'. I can beat, heck, Mega Lucario with 'prediction'. But, when risk > reward, you cannot risk the play. It's simple risk/reward logic. What's a prediction? A prediction is a 50/50. You should only be predicting in true 50/50 scenarios, as risk/reward will guide you otherwise. And the risk of Genesect smacking your Lando-T with Ice Beam is greater than the risk of you switching to something that can sponge the Ice Beam/U-turn, and is quite possibly a stupid play when such Pokemon might be what you rely on to handle certain threats on the opposing team. Genesect doesn't have to deal with mind-games, though, as U-turn eliminates them entirely. It ALWAYS has a safe move.

Also, non-Scarf Genesect has NOT been deemed inferior. It's just the quote on quote "best set", and even that's hardly the truth. There are two variants of Scarf, physical and special. There is also the Band set, which is a freaking amazing attacker AND good revenge killer to boot due to CB-boosted ESpeed. There's the EBelt set, which is an amazing bluff and should not be undervalued. Regarding EBelt as meh is very silly, as since Scarf is so common, bluffing it is very easy. The opponent just can't risk you being Scarf, as they have no way of knowing based off your team or anything. SG Genesect, given blocks to it are removed, can easily sweep. Genesect has the strong STAB move, the coverage, and the priority to prevent revenge kills from even Talonflame. SG is probably my personal favorite Genesect set, tbh. Specs Genesect can rip holes in numerous physically bulky Pokemon that Band can have trouble with. There's also the Band set, but with a LO, that takes advantage of the ability to switch moves and poses a significant offensive threat. There's also the sash lead set, which can deal serious damage at the beginning of the game, able to any one hit right off the bat, and can U-turn to get momentum right off the bat. I just named eight amazing Genesect sets right there, that all work absolutely amazing and are insane to deal with. They fulfill all kinds of different roles and hit on all ends of the attacking spectrum. I haven't covered AV, which has received positive reviews from numerous OU QC members in the Genesect analysis, as it is able to take special hits, such as Latios' Draco Meteors, very nicely. There's some calcs/justification listed in the Genesect OU analysis thread and the Assault Vest thread here. You would have a whopping nine possible Genesects including that. It is more than BW OU Jirachi, which was commonly considered to be one of the most versatile and effective Pokemon in OU. The difference? Genesect has STAB on U-turn, Download, significantly higher offensive stats, powerful coverage moves, an amazing setup move that also boosts Speed...a parallel can indeed be drawn to BW OU Jirachi, except Genesect is even better than Jirachi ever was.

The difference between the VoltTurn of Genesect and other Pokemon is that it has the coverage to punish everything that opposes it. Thundurus is indeed very good, but a parallel cannot be drawn to Genesect. It has worse bulk, shitty typing in comparison, much less versatility...Thundurus is hardly comparable. Tornadus-T is in a similar boat.

I am in general against the ban of Genesect....

Well, so things boil down that Genesect's only advantage against other Voltturn user is a more powerful U-turn, and outside that it even gets inferior coverage move when the prediction goes wrong(as shown in my analysis). Basically an extreme approach of offensive Voltturner in terms of both risk and reward, and we have to keep in mind how much it sacrifices for it, it is a horrible sweeper. It sweeps in Gen V simply because that was a stupid meta with everything frail as hell, which is in turn, a result of the HO nature.

The kami/cloud trial actually take a similar approach, notably Tornadus-T, which got a regenerator and is passive-damage-proof. I am now trying to replace Genesect with it on the suspect ladder with aecrobatic/superpower/u-turn/knock off, I am missing the fly gem so much....., anyway, the result is okay and it actually functions like a more forgiving version of genesect both to me and my opponent.

One side note about Thundurus-A, any earth switch in risk taking heavy damage if not OHKO from HP ice(especially when most are so frail on the special side).

Thundurus-A also has the advantage in the sense that it can invest on its volt switch, which in terms of stability may be even better than the download, another similar trait is focus miss, but ofc the risk of focus miss is extremely anti-competitive because that does not even involve mind games (though the probability probably stays similar).

Also, this gen actually gives the trial a new toy in the form of Knock off, a very spamable move.

Another note, Mega-Mene, which I just met a team built around it and does really well, is another "genesect" to be concerned, and it gets Overheat as a powerful hit and run poke. The one I met was not building things that way though.

Overheat/choice Infernape is also included but I don't think anyone is actually using it that way.

A bit off-topic, but I list out these pokemon just because I hope they are the thing you are actually comparing Genesect with, not things like utility Rotom or tank Landorus-T. These pokemon share traits which include fast and to different extent powerful hit and run, and will be backfired due to misprediction, which includes choice-locked, stat drops from superpower and overheat, or even the misses of focus miss, knock off also does pathetic damage and can mean a free switch to any Mega, especially when you are choice locked.

Overall, I personal don't see Genesect outclass them that much due the higher risk involved and the fact that it does not sweep. However I must admit the latter point may be a bit squishy, and if Genesect is actually banned, this should be the only reason.

Every single one is inferior to Genesect in some way, shape, or form, or are entirely different. Tornadus-T and Thundurus, as I've already stated, are barely comparable. Mega Manectric isn't really that good, either. It simply doesn't hit /that/ hard. It isn't another Genesect. It, like the Kami duo, has issues with bulk, typing, etc. There are also plenty of Pokemon that don't take much from Volt Switch, and are immunities to it. Oh, and another point toward the Kami duo -- they're weak to SR. This sucks hard for a VoltTurner that ideally wants to get numerous switch-ins. Mega Manectric is okay, but it's not great. Also, MixApe and CB are probably Infernape's best sets. Infernape isn't included either, though, as it lacks the STAB on U-turn needed to make it genuinely powerful. It is just fast and has nice power.

These Pokemon are also much, much less versatile than Genesect, and have other downsides compared to it. Do you see them on virtually every offensive team? Well, maybe Thundurus on HO in this metagame (it's so good), but besides it, none of them are found so commonly. Oh, and what is Thundurus very often paired with? You guessed it, Genesect. VoltTurners are hardly mutually exclusive, and are often used in tandem. Thundurus is great, but Genesect is just ridiculous.

 

[WebBowser]

That is relevant to that prediction game.
Of course, U-Turn itself is what gives you all the advantage in any situation, as you can just run to a counter for whatever is on the other side, and if you've got an Attack boost, it's taking probably at least 25% health even on resists. Only Genesect can pull all the need for prediction out of getting momentum, as a grand-total of two Pokémon (AV-Conk and Heatran) can switch in safely to any attack, and neither of them have reliable recovery.

Gonna call you out on this, virtually any bulky fire can swap into just about any attack genesect can throw at it besides techno-pump. Rotom-H and bulky band entei are standouts in this regard. The rest of your post is fine tho.

We should stop replying to the stupid "All Mevos will get banned if we carry on like this!" posts. We've already explained the many, many things wrong with that statement, and the posts will al get deleted anyway.


That's a good point, but you need to have a Pokemon with Protect facing Genesect in order to make that strategy work, which is uncertain to say the least. You can't actually switch your Protect user into Genesect since it will probably U-Turn or deal a lot of damage. And if people start running Protect on Pokemon which don't usually need it just to help deal with Genesect (as opposed to actually countering it) you have yourself an overcentralized metagame. You might as well run HP Fire on random things.

Another good point. While a decent number of genesect users I have seen from experience are leading with them, so you can somewhat reliably scout this out really early by throwing out a protect lead (which is just as good this gen as it has been any other gen). On a side note, IIRC deo-s outspeeds and one shots scarf gene with fire punch, so there's another.

Anyway, my point with this post and my other ones is not simply to point out options that you can use against genesect, but to point out that there are many, many competitively viable pokemon that deal with genesect as well as do other stuff (bulky fires, protect, a faster scarfer, pursuit, SR, priority, etc), yes, you will probably need more then just one of these things to deal with it, but how many high ranking teams are not running multiple things from that above list? None of those things are particularly obscure (except for the concept of bulky fire types, that's relatively new to gen 6 thanks to SR), and more importantly, every half decent pokemon that can do one of the things from that list can do other things as well, so you do not need to run a "dedicated" Genesect counter because they never existed in the first place!

 

[Impy]

I'm honestly surprised I never saw Genesect paired with M-Ampharos more often. Amphy is the most optimized pivot in the game, and Genesect is a perfect partner for it. Well, okay, Genesect is the perfect partner for a lot of things.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

I'm honestly surprised I never saw Genesect paired with M-Ampharos more often. Amphy is the most optimized pivot in the game, and Genesect is a perfect partner for it. Well, okay, Genesect is the perfect partner for a lot of things.

Using Mega Ampharos means not using some other megas, that's probably why.

Genesect also doesn't really need a partner, it functions on its own pretty well.

 

[Impy]

Using Mega Ampharos means not using some other megas, that's probably why.

Genesect also doesn't really need a partner, it functions on its own pretty well.

I guess so. That seems to have been the problem with megas so far, some of them have been so imbalanced that no one uses anything else. Hopefully Luke will get banned and we'll see more variety. It was really only ever Gengar, Lucario and Kangaskhan.

 

[Iodic Acid]

Gonna call you out on this, virtually any bulky fire can swap into just about any attack genesect can throw at it besides techno-pump. Rotom-H and bulky band entei are standouts in this regard. The rest of your post is fine tho.

Eh, I personally tried out Rotom-H as a Genesect counter, and the problem is that since you can't actually catch the damn thing, your counter has to be able to able to switch in multiple times, in which case x2 Stealth Rock damage, along with the small but non-zero damage from U-turn, quickly add up. I haven't tried Entei but I imagine it faces the same problem.

 

[TheLonelyUmbreon]

how is Mega Lucario too overpowered? I mean it doesn't have very high speeds like mega alakazam does, just hit with super effective special moves and its dead plus burn physical variant and its pretty much crippled. I mean it still has the same checks and counters as normal lucario plus some new ones. other pokemon have the ability adaptability like crawdaunt and he isn't banned into ubers. so why ban it into ubers? it makes no sense to ban a mega evolution that still can be destroyed with out too much effort and still retains the same checks and counters from its normal form. honestly most of us wanted to run something other than the e-speed killer set back in gen 5 that's all it could run because it has not that great speed and decent offenses and now they are banning its mega evolution just to prevent other players from doing something other than extreme killer Lucario. Plus you can always use aegislash to scout out what set the opponent is running on mega lucario because it cant do anything to aegislash outside of dark pulse or shadow ball which is rarely seen on it. I don't deem it uber worthy any stab special move from a strong pokemon is gonna OHKO it, it still has counter play and lots of it.