XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)

[Anty]

how is Mega Lucario too overpowered? I mean it doesn't have very high speeds like mega alakazam does, just hit with super effective special moves and its dead plus burn physical variant and its pretty much crippled. I mean it still has the same checks and counters as normal lucario plus some new ones. other pokemon have the ability adaptability like crawdaunt and he isn't banned into ubers. so why ban it into ubers? it makes no sense to ban a mega evolution that still can be destroyed with out too much effort and still retains the same checks and counters from its normal form. honestly most of us wanted to run something other than the e-speed killer set back in gen 5 that's all it could run because it has not that great speed and decent offenses and now they are banning its mega evolution just to prevent other players from doing something other than extreme killer Lucario. Plus you can always use aegislash to scout out what set the opponent is running on mega lucario because it cant do anything to aegislash outside of dark pulse or shadow ball which is rarely seen on it. I don't deem it uber worthy any stab special move from a strong pokemon is gonna OHKO it, it still has counter play and lots of it.

Its regular form has many counters but his mega form really doesnt. Yes, you can revenge kill it, but you have to sack something in the proccess. Dark pulse is used on 90% of special sets, eq and crunch are common on physical sets, so it can destroy aegislash. Have you been reading the previous comments, or have you never played a gen6 ou game? Mega luke is strong with decent speed and is nearly impossible to switch into.

I have decided to go pro ban mega luke and gene, im not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but it sounds good in my head so im going to say it. The metagame is relatively new, only several months old, and these threats are definitely not healthy for it.
If they arent banned, the meta may adapt to them which wont be good because:
It can effectively change the meta, everyone is running gene and mega luke, as well as their counters.
Also people will be running obscure counters, e.g. rotom-h which could make its way into ou due to being a counter, like sableye did.

A big reason why mega kanga and lando-i (bw2) got banned was because people where forced to run obscure checks and counters to them. This is currently happening and as the meta settles, the tier will be based around these threats and obscure counters will be required. By the looks of it most people are pro ban mluke, 50/50 gene and no ban deo-s

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

Overall, I personal don't see Genesect outclass them that much due the higher risk involved and the fact that it does not sweep. However I must admit the latter point may be a bit squishy, and if Genesect is actually banned, its sweeping potential should be the only reason(shift gear/Choice Band Extreme Speed spam).

God (forgive me for using your name in vain) Arceus dammit! I really hate the chorus that it provides "free momentum" as an argument for banning it. Anti-ban arguments are credible enough, and they most certain do not make any elisions over Genesect's almost impeccable coverage over the physical and special spectrum it can run with its three remaining moves (if U-Turn is used).

Yes...

How long has Genesect been in the OU metagame, using its Scarf set? It would seem that reading the Genesect suspect thread, the offensive potential of the Rock Polish set and ease of set-up (due to its Gen 5 defensive typing) were what put it over the edge. Certainly, the fact that it can run the RP set, along with EBelt and Scarf set were contributing factors in addition to the efficacy of the Scarf set. In practice, based on the current metagame as a whole not just the selective anecdotes of skilled players who have been able to use them effectively, its boosting sets are underwhelming.

If one were to use the concept of stare decisis to justify a ban, its high coverage alone cannot be a reason for a ban. Genesect can either be hampered by its Scarf and mediocre speed (which priority circumvents the remedy of using a Scarf) that prevents it from dominating with its coverage, so it is not "broken". Its alleged brokenness cannot be used to justify because it is not broken. It does not seem Genesect's Scarf set was the main reason for its ban.

Genesect should dwell in the realm of the mortal, OU, not in the empyrean halls of Valhalla, Ubers.

 

[TheArchangle]

Genesect should go Uber and probably Lucarionite with it. Deoxys S is fine thanks to defog and rapid spin(most people don't use spin blockers anymore from my experience).

 

[Icon of Sin]

Just looking at Mega Lucario's offensive stats of 145/140/112 makes me shiver. To add insult to injury, it's also granted Adaptability, access to both Swords Dance and Nasty Plot, and even a handful of priority moves. And worst thing is, if you predict the wrong set, gg. Even the bulkiest of walls get torn down by this beast. The bravest of "counters" get pulverized or just horribly injured. I wouldn't be surprised if it gets sent to Ubers.

Now for Genesect, I'm not that sure about. All I know is, it gets Download boosts and is usually pretty hard to catch off-guard since it keeps U-Turning, and if you keep switching in your designated Genesect counter while the sneaky rocks are on your side of the field, it is not going to last long (unless it's Heatran).

And as for Deoxys-S, it's not exactly broken. It's annoying when it sets hazards (luckily Defog/Rapid Spin exist) and deals a good amount of damage when on hyper-offensive team, but it's not sponge ban worthy.

 

[TheLonelyUmbreon]

Its regular form has many counters but his mega form really doesnt. Yes, you can revenge kill it, but you have to sack something in the proccess. Dark pulse is used on 90% of special sets, eq and crunch are common on physical sets, so it can destroy aegislash. Have you been reading the previous comments, or have you never played a gen6 ou game? Mega luke is strong with decent speed and is nearly impossible to switch into.

I have decided to go pro ban mega luke and gene, im not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but it sounds good in my head so im going to say it. The metagame is relatively new, only several months old, and these threats are definitely not healthy for it.
If they arent banned, the meta may adapt to them which wont be good because:
It can effectively change the meta, everyone is running gene and mega luke, as well as their counters.
Also people will be running obscure counters, e.g. rotom-h which could make its way into ou due to being a counter, like sableye did.

A big reason why mega kanga and lando-i (bw2) got banned was because people where forced to run obscure checks and counters to them. This is currently happening and as the meta settles, the tier will be based around these threats and obscure counters will be required. By the looks of it most people are pro ban mluke, 50/50 gene and no ban deo-s

you can always use thunder wave Klefki to cripple it if the opponent doesn't switch or if the opponent doesn't have anything that can take a thunder wave and fyi I have played lots of 6th gen ou battles and I have never been swept by mega lucario. and besides why is a meta change that bad I mean it always changes after each generation. its not that bad to go outside of what you are use too.

 

[NightJackal]

Mega Lucario has all the power of its former self, plus no recoil, plus Adaptability, plus the ability to effectively run Special sets. If its old version was OU, I can't think of a reason why this one shouldn't be Uber.
Genesect and Deo-S are a different story though. Genesect CAN be walled, and Deo-S just isn't that great anymore now that Defog exists allowing threee times the Pokemon to remove hazards.

 

[TheLonelyUmbreon]

Mega Lucario has all the power of its former self, plus no recoil, plus Adaptability, plus the ability to effectively run Special sets. If its old version was OU, I can't think of a reason why this one shouldn't be Uber.
Genesect and Deo-S are a different story though. Genesect CAN be walled, and Deo-S just isn't that great anymore now that Defog exists allowing threee times the Pokemon to remove hazards.

its power doesn't matter if its burned or paralyzed if its crippled its dead regardless of the priority moves it has.

 

[Jukain]

its power doesn't matter if your burned or paralyzed if its crippled its dead regardless or priority moves.

yes, and what pokemon can come in and live to tell the tale doing this? that's the issue.

 

[TheLonelyUmbreon]

yes, and what pokemon can come in and live to tell the tale doing this? that's the issue.

Mega aggron if you invest him special defensively.

 

[Jukain]

Mega aggron if you invest him special defensively.

Mega Aggron doesn't have room for TWave on its moveset, but just in case you would want to run it:

+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 459-543 (133.4 - 157.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 327-387 (95 - 112.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Can't take a +2 hit and can't revenge kill, is screwed against Mega Lucario no matter how you spin it.

 

[TheLonelyUmbreon]

Mega Aggron doesn't have room for TWave on its moveset, but just in case you would want to run it:

+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 459-543 (133.4 - 157.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 327-387 (95 - 112.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Can't take a +2 hit and can't revenge kill, is screwed against Mega Lucario no matter how you spin it.

who lets it set up? just paralyze it and its becomes death fodder

 

[Hibiki]

who lets it set up? just paralyze it and its becomes death fodder

You can't paralyze it with something that doesn't have T-Wave. Unless you plan to switch out... while it sets up...

 

[TheLonelyUmbreon]

You can't paralyze it with something that doesn't have T-Wave. Unless you plan to switch out... while it sets up...

mega aggron can learn thunder wave and can paralyze it while its setting up.

 

[Shurtugal]

Thundurus-I is the only mon that can TWave it, and even then +2 ESpeed should KO after SR.

 

[Pokexpert]

yeah you probably have not fought a good Mega Lucario, I personally run the Nasty Plot set It can pretty much OHKO anyhting with a fighting/steel/dark(I run dark pluse on him) weakness or some really good SpD, and put at good dent in most other things. At +1 I can OHKO almost anything without fighting/steel/dark resist resit or some insane special defensive stats with priority if it is using vacuum wave. and don't even get me started at what it can do at +2. This coupled by the fact that he has 112 speed and has priority in the form of vacuum wave mean most things. If you want to see actually calculation their are plenty scattered throughout this thread

There you go, A nasty plot set. That Is one set I have NOT fought, it sounds pretty threatening, Swords Dance I could deal with because of WOW.

 

[RandysRage]

Yeaaaaa, if your answer to Mega-Luke is Mega-Aggron, you know there's a problem with the balance of the game. Ban Lucarionite already and put an end to the pointless bickering.

 

[TheLonelyUmbreon]

Thundurus-I is the only mon that can TWave it, and even then +2 ESpeed should KO after SR.

not true Klefki can paralyze it, and meowstic can pretty much anything that is faster than mega luke than learn it can paralyze it

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

not true Klefki can paralyze it, and meowstic can pretty much anything that is faster than mega luke than learn it can paralyze it

Mega Lucario is not going to stay in for a para though. Best case scenario you force it out, or it's blunt and stays in to take the para and knocks out your poke. Then you basically sacrificed something just to cripple Mega Luke, which isn't ideal whatsoever.

 

[Jukain]

mega aggron can learn thunder wave and can paralyze it while its setting up.

It has to switch in. That's still besides the point, where is Mega Aggron fitting TWave into its moveset?

not true Klefki can paralyze it, and meowstic can pretty much anything that is faster than mega luke than learn it can paralyze it

Fine Klefki can para it, and then get OHKOed. Thundurus can para it, and then get OHKOed. Nothing else can because priority prevents faster stuff from getting off the TWave. The list of faster, viable OU mons is small anyways; base 112 Speed is huge.

Shurtugal Klefki is mentioned because SwagPlay Klefki is gay and runs TWave.

 

[TheLonelyUmbreon]

It has to switch in. That's still besides the point, where is Mega Aggron fitting TWave into its moveset?

Fine Klefki can para it, and then get OHKOed. Thundurus can para it, and then get OHKOed. Nothing else can because priority prevents faster stuff from getting off the TWave. The list of faster, viable OU mons is small anyways; base 112 Speed is huge.

Shurtugal Klefki is mentioned because SwagPlay Klefki is gay and runs TWave.

112 base speed is pretty decent but not that huge. I mean atleast its not base 150.

 

[Serrak]

God (forgive me for using your name in vain) Arceus dammit! I really hate the chorus that it provides "free momentum" as an argument for banning it. Anti-ban arguments are credible enough, and they most certain do not make any elisions over Genesect's almost impeccable coverage over the physical and special spectrum it can run with its three remaining moves (if U-Turn is used).

Yes...

How long has Genesect been in the OU metagame, using its Scarf set? It would seem that reading the Genesect suspect thread, the offensive potential of the Rock Polish set and ease of set-up (due to its Gen 5 defensive typing) were what put it over the edge. Certainly, the fact that it can run the RP set, along with EBelt and Scarf set were contributing factors in addition to the efficacy of the Scarf set. In practice, based on the current metagame as a whole not just the selective anecdotes of skilled players who have been able to use them effectively, its boosting sets are underwhelming.

If one were to use the concept of stare decisis to justify a ban, its high coverage alone cannot be a reason for a ban. Genesect can either be hampered by its Scarf and mediocre speed (which priority circumvents the remedy of using a Scarf) that prevents it from dominating with its coverage, so it is not "broken". Its alleged brokenness cannot be used to justify because it is not broken. It does not seem Genesect's Scarf set was the main reason for its ban.

Genesect should dwell in the realm of the mortal, OU, not in the empyrean halls of Valhalla, Ubers.

Nowhere in stone does it say something must be broken in order to be banned. Deoxys-d wasn't anywhere near broken last generation, but it was too good at it's job. No one can argue that Genesect isn't awesome at multiple roles, but the big question stands "is it too good at what it does for OU?" when you consider its coverage, passable bulk, good defensive typing and how easily (I said easily, i did not say it was free) it gains momentum, I think it is. I admit I would rather be liberal with bans, since one poke that's very good at multiple roles can easily eclipse three or four other mons who would see good usage otherwise, and keep so many others out by countering them too well. that said, Genesect and Mega Luke are the only two I'll stand against staying in the metagame. there are a couple others I wouldn't try too hard to keep in... but I would be happy with these two gone.

 

[Ajwf]

112 is just decent?

4 pokemon in OU outspeed 112. Greninja, Talonflame, Starmie, Alakazam. Good game bad logic.

 

[Jukain]

112 base speed is pretty decent but not that huge. I mean atleast its not base 150.

Base 112 Speed is absolutely huge, it outruns so much of the metagame. There are some faster things, but almost all of them are vulnerable to priority (espec SD-boosted ESpeed), as fast offensive threats tend to be pretty frail. This Speed stat makes RK'ing with common Pokemon not Scarfed pretty hard.

Nowhere in stone does it say something must be broken in order to be banned. Deoxys-d wasn't anywhere near broken last generation, but it was too good at it's job. No one can argue that Genesect isn't awesome at multiple roles, but the big question stands "is it too good at what it does for OU?" when you consider its coverage, passable bulk, good defensive typing and how easily (I said easily, i did not say it was free) it gains momentum, I think it does. I admit I would rather be liberal with bans, since one poke that's very good at multiple roles can easily eclipse three or four other mons who would see good usage otherwise, and keep so many others out by countering them too well. that said, Genesect and Mega Luke are the only two I'll stand against staying in the metagame. there are a couple others I wouldn't try too hard to keep in... but I would be happy with these two gone.

Deoxys-D was broken as a supporter...Genesect isn't really 'broken' in the traditional sense tbh.

 

[Icon of Sin]

not true Klefki can paralyze it, and meowstic can pretty much anything that is faster than mega luke than learn it can paralyze it

You see, that is the main problem with Mega Lucario. We're basically just finding random Pokemon from lower tiers that people would rarely consider putting in their OU team just to paralyze Mega Luke, and even then, they're not guaranteed to succeed. The only Pokemon in OU that actually has a decent chance at crippling Mega Luke is Thundurus.

 

[Shiruba]

And even Thundurus...
+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 254-299 (84.6 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Even just a tiny amount of prior damage [or SR] means that Thundurus is toast before it can even think of frying Lucario, because Lucario's ESpeed will go first. It shouldn't even really have that EV in HP because it makes its HP even - if you put that EV in Special Defence, MegaLuke has a chance of OHKOing regardless, though it is still very unlikely.