Gen 6 The XY Ubers Viability Ranking Thread [Read Post #1000]

[Blue Jay]

B-rank is way too low for Kyurem-W.
I mean Zekrom and Landorus-T are A but Kyu-W B? That's just crazy.
Is it because of the SR weakness? Reliable Defog support is disgustingly easy to get in ubers, otherwise we wouldn't have Ho-oh in A+ (and it was considered for S before if I'm not mistaken).
Xerneas? Takes massive damage from Ice Beam and even if it does switch into Draco Meteor then it becomes Ho-oh/Aegislash bait, who should always be paired with Kyurem-W since they have amazing synergy together. Being paired with one or two of the best pokemon in the tier certainly doesn't count as a flaw.
95 base speed is just good enough to outpace the oh-so-common base 90's (let's be honest, every uber team is going to carry at the very least one of those) and it can be either a powerful wallbreaker with Specs or a solid revenge killer/lategame cleaner with Scarf. If you think it's one set and it ends up being the other you're in serious trouble.

Actually, lots of stuff from B-rank needs to be moved up. It's absurd that things like Kyurem-W, Rayquaza, Heatran and Lugia are in the same rank as Whimsicott of all things.
Anyway I strongly believe Kyurem-W should be moved up to A-rank.

About the Arceus formes, I can say for a matter of fact that Arceus-Ice is more viable than Psychic since it's really not outclassed by anything else unlike it (Kyurem-W is a hit-and-runner, Arceus-Ice is a CM sweeper). For example why on earth would I run Arceus-Psychic over CM Mewtwo? What else does Arceus-Psychic do that another Psychic type doesn't do better? That alone means Psychic should be ranked below Ice.
Either way I think it's a bit too early to rank the more obscure Arceus formes since they may or may not have a niche that makes them worth using over the standard ones like Normal and Ghost.

Kyurem-W is a wallbreaker among many, and far from the best in any sense. It's very powerful, but its most powerful move leaves it too weak to KO much anything. It has rather awful defensive typing, and a SR weakness is always a limitation (Ho-Oh is much, much better than Kyurem-W, let's not even go there). For all its power it won't break Water Arceus, RestTalk Kyogre, Chansey or Blissey. Ho-Oh can switch into any of its moves and pivot out to an appropriate resist (essentially anything if you use Draco Meteor, a Water/Steel type if Ice Beam, or it can stay in on any other move), taking little damage overall. Fairy and Rock Arceus trouble it a lot. With Fairy- and Steel-types as well as Fire-resists almost ubiquitous, it's forced to predict a lot. In addition to all this, it needs to find a justification to be used over Kyogre, Ho-Oh and Zekrom as a wallbreaker.

Rayquaza's premier set of the past generation (Mixed Wallbreaker) is checked effectively by Fairy Arceus, Rock Arceus and Water Arceus, one of which is present on most balanced/stall teams. Its Dragon Dance set is very difficult to set up, will still lose to certain Choice Scarf users (Xerneas and Genesect, mainly) and depends on Outrage for a lot of OHKOs, which means that even if it manages to set up it can never sweep while the opponent has a Fairy-type. Its Swords Dance set is just as difficult to set up, is heavily dependent on a somewhat weak Extremespeed, is still checked by all the aforementioned Arceus formes and is usually inferior to Arceus-Normal (Dragon Claw and V-Create are very powerful, but Arceus-Normal is far easier to set up and has a more powerful Extremespeed).

Heatran is something of an anomaly in that its typing and bulk allow it to effectively check some sets of major threats, but not all. Xerneas with Fighting-type coverage and Ho-Oh with Earthquake destroy it, meaning a secondary check is needed for both, while Ho-Oh checks many of the things that Heatran does check reliably just as well. As cool as its typing and movepool are, this makes it difficult to fit.

I addressed Lugia in my earlier post.

Arceus-Ice is outclassed by Arceus-Electric, which has the same coverage with a typing that at least has a few somewhat useful resistances and only one weakness, as well as not being weak to Stealth Rock.

 

[Fireburn]

What is the general consensus on Garchomp on the list?

We don't have one as you have probably seen. It's probably mid B-rank since it has a nice STAB combo, troll Speed as usual, and SubSalac is a good endgame sweeper. However, both of its STABs have immunities, Fairies drive it nuts, it hates going up against WoW support Arceus, and its Mega evolution is not too great. I would ask Furai about it since he's used it more.

 

[MMII]

Ugh the team archetype terms are kinda lame here. Poison Arceus runs wisp, sludge/judge, cm, recover btw. A lot of teams can't really break that. The fairy resist is still a very useful advantage and its a nice check to Xerneas. (psyshock is a garbage move) The most common checks to it in the meta atm are Mewtwo, recovering steels (still wisp and run is good), sorta Ho-Oh (with defensive investment some sets can't break back and sr + poison will wear it down), Blaziken (only dangerous if it's the SD variant), CM Arceus-Ghost, Heatran, Charizard X and bulky kyogre. That's not a terribly large list seeing how a fair amount of them are short time checks to it. A few are big enough to warrant a drop to B- but I think you are seriously underestimating how effective it can be on a team with proper amounts of support. (Furai's SPL team vs probs had it, not that he needed it but it was posing a massive threat once Mewtwo dropped)

Edit: Forgot fire doesn't resist Poison, so the arc forme is even better :o

 

[lordkira]

We don't have one as you have probably seen. It's probably mid B-rank since it has a nice STAB combo, troll Speed as usual, and SubSalac is a good endgame sweeper. However, both of its STABs have immunities, Fairies drive it nuts, it hates going up against WoW support Arceus, and its Mega evolution is not too great. I would ask Furai about it since he's used it more.

I see.
I just wanted to see some experienced uber players' input regarding garchomp.
I, however, don't see garchomp as a mid-B-tier pokemon.
I understand I only have a very limited knowledge of the ubers game but I early believe garchomp's STABs having immunities is a far bigger problem than it seems. garchomp has good STABs, excellent speed, and decent all-around stats.
But it is, in my eyes, a seemingly good pokemon with big flaws that are enough to push it away from being in B even.
Well, that's my thoughts regarding garchomp anyways.

 

[realiti]

Garchomp's speed is unique and useful as it outspeeds palkia and everything below it w/o a choice scarf, and you can run choice scarf of your own. Megachomp has an amazing attack stat which is just boosted with sandstorm. However, sandstorm is harder is to keep up, and will o wisp makes it so much harder to switch in, but you have nice coverage with edgequake and outrage/dragon claw even if you don't evolve and sand force brings garchomp's attack to absurd amounts. However if you mega evolve you get outsped by things like palkia and rayquaza( though the latter isn't seen so much) and takes up your item spot. However, sometimes the wallbreaking power does make up for it, and garchomp has huge potential. I would say around B/B- is good for it.

 

[MMII]

Made some changes cause a QC member responded late, a few are controversial so I'm going to share his arguments cause they were pretty convincing.

List of changes:
Gengar in S
Xern in S
Mewtwo in S
Blaze in A+
Lando in A+
Gliscor in B-
Aegis in B
Ferro in B
Zard in B+
Sylveon in B+
Arceus Grass in B
(and then the Tinas in B based on arguments in this thread)

Gengar:

Donkey's argument

Mega-Gengar - S rank. Shadow Tag does two very different things that make it ridiculously broken and easy to fit on teams. First, it lets you remove one offensive threat to your team, letting you run one less check (offensive or defensive) to a threat. Second, it let's you remove an enemy defensive pivot which can allow something like scarf kyogre, xerneas, or ho-oh to sweep.

Basically, Mega Gengar's Shadow Tag is extremely effective at manipulating matchups and opens up new options in teambuilding. Not exactly a word for word fit of the criteria but there's always exceptions and it responds to the fundamental question of "How easily can I fit this mon on my team?"

Xerneas: Basically just more support for S rank than there was before, it was borderline already.

Mewtwo:

Donkey's argument

For reference: S rank - The titans of the game. They bear massive offensive and defensive capabilities. Pokemon in this tier are extremely diverse, capable of fulfilling multiple roles on both defensive and offensive ends. There is virtually zero opportunity cost in using these Pokemon. They barely require support, if any, from the team and have immense utility to offer.

CM or Taunt Life Orb Mewtwo / CM or Taunt MMY can run Focus Blast/Fire Blast/Psystrike now, and can run Shadow Ball, Thunder or Ice Beam if it wants, too. Ice Beam isn't as much of a necessity as it was last gen with Rayquaza, Gliscor, Giratina everywhere.
Bulk Up Taunt MMX can run Psycho/Drain Punch or Stone Edge > Taunt if you are really worried about Ho-oh and less worried about Giratina, / Taunt 3 attacks MMX can run Stone Edge/EQ/Low Kick.

The above listed massive possible coverage gives an insane amount of utility to a team by virtue of the surprise factor: "Can I afford to switch in this Mewtwo check on that unrevealed form?" etc. If your opponent is skilled it forces your opponent to play cautiously. I personally have used probably like 10 or more different Mewtwo and MMY movesets on teams.

1. Now the main counters for MMY and LO Mewtwo are basically Yveltal, Arceus-Ghost, Psychic and scarfers, but neither can switch in safely. Stuff like Jirachi, Deo-D got a lot worse this gen and Aegislash is raped by fire moves, and again Taunt beats most of the conventional walls. Dragon tail is less common bc of fairies so taunt was buffed this gen. Calm Mind MMY lets you CM on Xerneas and OHKO the standard 150 hp variant after SR and a Geomancy with Psystrike, while at the same time being able to eat a +2 Moonblast. MMY also can Calm Mind on Palkia except Twave variants. Life Orb is still just as scary as in gen 5 and crushes everything.

2. The Bulk Up Taunt set threatens to sweep ALL teams without a scarfer that OHKOs MMX or Lugia w/ Aeroblast, Giratina-O with Shadow Ball (which is bad), Arceus-Ghost, Fairy, Psychic, Xerneas, or Aegislash. With SR up it pretty much OHKOs all the standard ubers after +1, including Ho-Oh, and I *Think* it lives Oblivion Wing from Yveltal. Taunt 3 Attacks has similar counters, bar Aegislash, but does not need SR as badly to tear holes through the enemy team. Ho-oh is frequently used to check MMY or regular Mewtwo if no SR is up, but it can't do that anymore because of the threat of Stone Edge.

3. In regards to stalltwo: stalltwo Mewtwo with Lefties is HIGHLY underrated. Willowisp going through lum is huge this meta, and it still outspeeds non mega evo'd gengar. Stalltwo beats: Xerneas, Arceus-Psychic, Fairy, CM Arceus forms, Lugia, burns Yveltals/Giratinas on switches and is general really good vs offensive teams that don't have an Arceus-Ghost.


So taking this into account, you can't really rely on 1 method of beating Mewtwo, or if you do, the method requires a lot of specific support. If you are using Yveltal to revenge MMY, then you become weak to Taunt 3 attacks MMX and Bulk up MMX. Arceus-Psychic and Fairy and Xerneas lose to Taunt MMY. A scarfer needs a realiable defogger, etc, etc. Arceus-Ghost is 2hkod by Life orb Mewtwo, etc etc - A+ rank threat so you obv need something else to siwtch into it on most teams anyways.

Conclusion: MMY has insane sp def and can do all kinds of cool stuff with its speed, calm mind etc. MMX with bulk up and taunt becomes a huge physical threat and is also impossible to bring down with physical attacks or be revenged by ekiller/zekrom etc. and LO Mewtwo hits really hard, and stalltwo is possibly better this gen because of defog > rapid spin and beats a ton of stuff that checks other mewtwos. You can't run just 1 mon (except maybe Arc ghost with phys def evs) and expect to get away with beating all mewtwos. It's a huge threat, sorry for the essay but I think it fits the conditions.

Note regarding phys def ogre: it checks all 3 variants sort of, but it's a 1 time check really and won't be able to check any other physical threat after dealing with mewtwo so i didnt mention it.

Also: in regard to little to no opportunity cost. basically all forms of kyogre are checked by palkia and you are forced to have a palkia switch in, i feel like the same is true for mewtwo and arceus ghost except that arceus ghost CANNOT switch into psystrike.

Yeah, can't really sum that up. Long but a worthy read.

Blaziken:

What he said

Mega Blaziken - A+ rank. Almost S rank but it only has 1 role. Crush the enemy's defensive wall. If Blaziken gets to +2, and SR + residual damage are up late game, it can easily break Lugia/ Arc Ghost/ Gira-o with Knock Off. Vs offense, with protect 3 attacks it acts as a ridiculously powerful scarfer WITHOUT the constraint of a choice item.

Another borderline mon that was tipped by more support.

Landorus-T:

I swear this doesn't come form me

- Lando-t is completely different from Groudon. It can't run Roar so has less 4mss, is immune to EQ so handles Groudon/opposing Lando-T/Arc Ground better, doesn't have sun so Mega Blaziken doesn't wreck it. I would put it in A+ rank. It's nearly as good as Palkia.

Even hack didn't object, lol. My bias aside, Lando's lack of sun actually turned to an advantage because of Mega Blaziken and the popularity of Zekrom means more ground types which means checking them is even better. Just a good metagame for him.

Gliscor:

not as well off as his brother

- Gliscor is awful, last gen it was good vs offense because offense ran Groudon/Ferro a lot more, this gen it's dead weight. With Aroma Xern around and still stuff like Resttalk Kyogre being good, Ho-oh being better, Gira-o being worse, MMX giving no fucks, it really only got worse than last gen.

Just to add to that, new resttalk mechanics means that it loses to Bulky Kyogre a lot harder than it did before since you can't lock it into a perpetual sleep.

Aegislash and Ferrothorn:

Hide

- Aegislash and Ferrothorn - dead weight vs offense, Aegislash is literally only good vs arc fighting and xerneas, ferrothorn only good vs kyogre and rest palkia.

If Lati@s were around they would be cooler.

Charizard:

Those scrubs were prophets

- Charizard should be A-rank. both forms are devastating with good team support, i'm not even joking. run a wobb with zard x and kill niggas.

There are several things that make me really like Charizard this meta. Blast Burn OHKOs 252 hp Arceus (well it does like 97%) in the sun, from Zard Y. And, unlike Zard X, you don't need a Groudon to assure you sun. Another neat thing is Zard's special defense. If a modest 252 kyogre kills something on your team with Water Spout from full hp, you can swap in Zard after and eat a Water Spout after mega evolving with NO Sp def or HP evs and do a lot back with Solar Beam. Solar Beam also deters Arceus-Rock from switching in, and you can even fit Roost, Fire Blast or a rock move for Ho-Oh in the last 2 slots. You need a reliable defogger in either Arc Ghost or Gira-o though, but then again, ho-oh does as well. If you DO run blast burn which is actually a legit threat imo, you need to have solid arc norm and xern checks too, so it requires a decent amount of support.

Zard X requires sun support but +1 Flare Blitz basically also ohko's 252 hp Arceus which is it's advantage over Mega Blaze, IMO. It also has pretty nice typing, it can switch into steel moves, grass arceus, Willowisp, heatran etc, and even ho-oh sacred fire. again, it needs support, but you can also use things that bait in mons it sets up on, or just use a wobbufett + Groudon core. Unlike other dragons it rapes fairies which is huge.

Zard's a mon im probably biased on, but it's better than people give it credit for.

Trickroom has something to say about him, too.

I actually agree with Donkey about Charizard. Charizard isn't a joke anymore, it just hits damn hard. Mega Zard Y has good SpD and it lives a full power Water Spout in the sun, not Specs obviously. Simply spamming Fire Blast is so cool, and rapes Groudon. Zard X crushes Fairies, Flare Blitz + Tough Claws is insanely strong in sun, immunity to burn and you can even Roost. Outrage owns Ho-Oh or just Dragon Claw.

Fire Blast is now 110 base power :( Blast Burn's 150 base power does matter, but it's like Sylveon using Hyper Beam lol. Overheat > Blastburn. If you afraid of threats setting up on you after Overheat, Charizard can use Dragon Tail and Roar. B+ for Charizard.

Blastburn may sound like a joke but he drawbacks are basically either you lose Charizard or you give them a free turn to setup. Overheat's drops risks setups as well and Zard Y isn't supposed to be durable, definitely a worthwhile trade for their Arceus forme. You can still opt for Overheat or Fire Blast if you want to, though, they may not OHKO but the damage output is still massive.

Sylveon:

Might just be his eeveelutions love...

- Sylveon should be A-rank. Wish protect heal bell beating yveltal owns, you can also run toxic if you have another darkrai check (esp since sylv isnt very good vs darkrai).

He's admitted to some bias but Sylveon's placing is basically how much opportunity cost you think it has after considering the Wish niche over Xerneas. (but at the price of Roar) Sylveon is basically the better cleric, defensive Xerneas the better stand alone mon.

Arceus-Grass:

sorry Manaphy

- Arceus-Grass is awful. The threat of Mega Gengar forces you to predict really hard once Mega Gengar evolves and a good opponent will take advantage of that.

I'll admit I hate this mon, too, but there's just a massive number of ways to exploit it and a very few amount of moveslots it can spend to get around them. It requires a lot of support and it's a very risky mon to be using for your Kyogre check. (Bulky Fairies being Mega Gar weak isn't too bad because they aren't countered on for horribly dangerous mons like Kyogre and Mega Gar is their only massive weak point.)

 

[MMII]

Some other suggestions for discussion:

-Kyurem-W, Rayquaza, and Shaymin-S for low B rank.

Honestly, mid B rank is bloated as fuck and these mons are out of place I feel. They are all just cool alternative offensive threats that could work with team support but are goign to need it to deal with their weaknesses to things like SR and aren't really giving you much reason to add to your team beyond having a less common offensive threat to exploit overlooked holes in teambuilding.

-Gyarados for mid B rank.

I know I just complained about that area being bloated but the more I use this mon the more I love it. Normal Gyarados has a really useful typing for the metagame while Mega Gyarados is basically a mini-Bulky Kyogre with Taunt and a Dark typing. You can even run the same set and spread and do a sort of Blaziken check by day, status sponge/stall breaker by night type thing. Normal Gyarados likes having anti-SR support but that isn't too difficult to fit and you can always just remove the weakness by mega evolving so it's fairly self sufficient.

 

[Kebabe]

Some other suggestions for discussion:

-Kyurem-W, Rayquaza, and Shaymin-S for low B rank.

Cant you just ask Donkey where they should go?

 

[MMII]

Cant you just ask Donkey where they should go?

Lol, not sure if that's supposed to be criticism or if you liked the Mewtwo essay. The reason why Donkey's opinion swayed so much was because it was delayed. He was supposed to share his thoughts before i posted the list but he did so afterwords, lol. So the list changed in response to new opinions being shared (that were discussed). Future changes should be made based off of responses in this thread from now on, this was just an exception based on the timing of the thing. Keep in mind everything on the list can be objected to and argued for a change.

 

[blitzlefan]

Lol, not sure if that's supposed to be criticism or if you liked the Mewtwo essay. The reason why Donkey's opinion swayed so much was because it was delayed. He was supposed to share his thoughts before i posted the list but he did so afterwords, lol. So the list changed in response to new opinions being shared (that were discussed). Future changes should be made based off of responses in this thread from now on, this was just an exception based on the timing of the thing. Keep in mind everything on the list can be objected to and argued for a change.

Regarding the Mewtwo essay, I don't think anybody can read all of it - quotes in hide tags only show part of what's written. Unless it was meant to be cut off like that?

Edit: Oops! Missed that, sorry!

 

[MMII]

There's a click to expand button.

Edit: Which only apparently works with one at a time.

 

[Rotosect]

Some other suggestions for discussion:

-Kyurem-W, Rayquaza, and Shaymin-S for low B rank.

Honestly, mid B rank is bloated as fuck and these mons are out of place I feel. They are all just cool alternative offensive threats that could work with team support but are goign to need it to deal with their weaknesses to things like SR and aren't really giving you much reason to add to your team beyond having a less common offensive threat to exploit overlooked holes in teambuilding.

That's really not a good argument. I have already explained why Kyu- W is A-rank material and I'm sure the other two could be moved higher too. They're not "alternatives", this is not gen 1 where only 10 pokemon are viable and everything else is just to spice things up every now and then.

Hell the arguments I'm seeing on this page are pretty awful in general. "Lando-T has no Roar so it has less 4mss compared to Groudon"? I say it's less versatile, which should count as a flaw, not something to be proud of.

As for the SR weakness, If Ho-oh and Zard can manage I'm sure these 3 can too. Defog support in gen 6 ubers is comparable to rain support in gen 5 - something that shouldn't weigh much on a pokemon's rank.

 

[Annabeth]

Made some changes cause a QC member responded late, a few are controversial so I'm going to share his arguments cause they were pretty convincing.

List of changes:
Gliscor in B-

Gliscor:
- Gliscor is awful, last gen it was good vs offense because offense ran Groudon/Ferro a lot more, this gen it's dead weight. With Aroma Xern around and still stuff like Resttalk Kyogre being good, Ho-oh being better, Gira-o being worse, MMX giving no fucks, it really only got worse than last gen.
Just to add to that, new resttalk mechanics means that it loses to Bulky Kyogre a lot harder than it did before since you can't lock it into a perpetual sleep.

That's talking about Sub set.
But I think Gliscor has another niche as SR setter :

Gliscor@Toxic Orb
Ability : Poison Heal
Nature : Impish
EVs : 252HP/252Def/4Sdef
Stealth Rock
Taunt
Toxic
Earthquake

That's somehow similar to Lando-T, same typing, similar bulk if you take into account Intimidate and Poison Heal (Intimidate means (slightly) better physical bulk but Poison Heal give more recovery).
The two check the same things : Groudon, Zekrom, etc... and are afraid by the same mons : Kyogre, Palkia, Xerneas...
Lando-T is about 50% more powerful (and I admit this is important), but Gliscor is a great status absorber and stallbreaker thanks to the combination of Taunt, Toxic and Poison Heal. This is useful for many teams, while it also give more opportunities to set up SR.
Moreover, Taunt can help to keep SR up against Giratina and Scizor.

An example of a match where this Gliscor is doing great : http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-81460418

 

[Hack]

I didn't take note of some placements when we were making the initial list, so here are some placements I'd like to be discussed (note that the mons in particular aren't very prominent):

Arceus Dark - B rank >>> C+ rank

Whimsicott - B rank >>> C+ rank

Reference:
C Rank
Reserved for Pokemon with viable offensive or defensive capability. They have certain niches or utility that allow them to perform in specific roles. Reliant on fairly large amounts of team support to function and minimize their inherent flaws. They may also suffer significantly from opportunity cost to the point of being mostly outclassed.


Arceus Dark
Arceus Dark has a very tiny niche in the metagame. It is a good check to MMY, but as Donkey explained it's incredibly hard to actually switch into Mewtwo for any check to MMY- it's even harder for Arceus Dark as it gets totally owned by MMX. I don't really know what sets people run with this mon, but a bog standard defog set with STAB+Recover+WoW+Defog has a lot of trouble with major parts of the metagame, Xerneas is the pinnacle of the problems of course. If you want to run a set with Roar to circumvent Xerneas set ups, sure, but you still get destroyed by an attack regardless and the 4MSS is pretty bad. Not only is it Xerneas bait, it's also Blaziken bait which is really bad, it forces a lot of restricting teambuilding so the opportunity cost here is huge- aka reliant on fairly large amounts of team support to minimize their inherent flaws.

The classic stallbreaker set is also too hard and not worth pulling off- more Ho-oh in the metagame and Xerneas/Blaze/MMX still checks easily.

For another reference, look at the criteria for B-rank: Reserved for Pokemon with large offensive or defensive capability. They are designed to serve specific roles for a team and may offer valuable utility. They often need certain amounts of support and/or suffer to a degree from opportunity cost.

Large is tiny here and the specific role is VERY specific when compared to the inherent opportunity cost it has (since it is an Arceus-Forme). It requires massive support due to being bait to 2 of the deadliest sweepers in the game. Sure you could argue that you have moves that can turn the tables on both but then comes the 4MSS...

Whimsicott
This mon is very niche, sure it's nice to encore set up sweepers, but where are the choice dragons it's supposed to be walling exactly? The only legit ones are pretty much specs Kyurem-W and scarf Zekrom (and to an extent, Dialga); Kyurem-W just Ice Beams all the time and Zekrom still builds momentum on you with Volt Switch. Sure you can come in on a Palkia and die to the Fire Blast after you paralyzed it, but that's just not cutting it when it comes to checking dragons in general. You can Encore too but that's a 50-50 at best (I*ll get to that later). IMO Fairyceus, Sylveon and Klefki generally provides more team support and synergy than Whimsicott.

What it can do is Leech Seed quite effectively. Or not? Whenever you get in on a resisted/immune hit you have a choice really. Many mons that aren't choiced carry a) another move that can severly dent if not OHKO you (examples are Fire Blast Palkia/Dialga, Fire Punch Groudon, Yveltal amongst others) b) pull out a status move like Toxic (some support Arc, SR setters like Lando-T/Groudon can carry this) which completely ruin you. Looking at the A and S ranks here, Whimsicott barely has any actual switch ins that can lead to a scenario where you won't need to go 50-50 with Encore/Seed. A mon that has to for a 50-50 every time it enters the game to get anything done at all doesn't fit the criteria for B-rank imo. Again referencing to the criteria of C-rank:

Reserved for Pokemon with viable offensive or defensive capability. They have certain niches or utility that allow them to perform in specific roles. Reliant on fairly large amounts of team support to function and minimize their inherent flaws. They may also suffer significantly from opportunity cost to the point of being mostly outclassed.

Whimsicott sure has a niche, albeit a small one. It needs a lot of team support to minimize the flaw that is the constant 50-50s (sometimes this isn't enough as one mispredict and you are done). It also has to compete with more synergetic Fairys that provide different and more reliable support.

 

[Magcargo]

Melee Mewtwo , This is a somewhat controversial change that I am about to propose, so I would like to hear your thoughts about it.

Considering that many of the communities ideas are ignored and shafted in favors of the ideas of the ubers QC team, expert tournament players, and Moderators, I believe that this thread should be locked and stickied, with changes such as the lowering and rising of Pokemon being discussed via ubers IRC / PM.

This may sound like an idiotic idea (and its mostly is), but I personally believe that this will do more good to the thread then harm to the thread. The purpose of this thread is to help newer player understand the viability of certain Pokemon in the tier. By inviting certain users (primarily The Ubers QC team and expert Ubers Tournament players) to IRC, you can discuss the viability of certain Pokemon in the Ubers tier with a more conventional style. It is also somewhat easier to make drastic changes to the list if the metagame changes, as these expert tournament players and the Ubers QC team could PM you their version of the new Ubers viability list. From there, you and a few other users you trust can locate the best place to put certain Pokemon.

Something else I think would help aid new players even further is the inclusion of Write-ups for all the Pokemon on the list, briefly explaining the role of the Pokemon in question, why it is inefficient/efficient in the metagame, etc., as well as sample sets included to give a newer player a better grasp on what the Pokemon in question can run. A link to the Pokemon's analysis page should also be included to give the newer player a better grasp on the Pokemon's general role. If my previous proposal does go through, then the Ubers QC team and tournament players can write up these analyses. If not, then the community can write up these analyses and potentially receive a reward for their efforts.

Most of these proposals will not go through (if any at all) and this post will most likely go in the Ubers "Hall of Shame", but I personally believe these changes would positively affect the thread.

 

[Fireburn]

Went ahead and stickied the thread (the OU version is stickied so wynaut). Locking it isn't a good idea IMO since people can discuss things on here just as much as IRC and it allows more people to participate. Write-ups will probably happen eventually, but now is not the time as the list is still relatively fresh, as is the metagame.

 

[Hack]

While 4MSS is in no way a benefit, it is not a flaw by any means.

Oh what the fuck did I take this seriously for

 

[MMII]

Retrosect- My main gripe is that over the course of the battle, because Kyurem-W brings nothing to a team and isn't durable at all so it'll end up finding less opportunities to deal damage (making it outclassed in the offensive department over a period of time) as well as not bringing any noticeable utilities to your team. Charizard-Y is similar but it also hits a lot harder and has a noticable speed boost that allows it to take kills more easily (and it's only a part of the reason why charizard as a whole is placed where it is). Ho-Oh is something that has a very large special defense, among other advantages, that allows it to come in multiple times if SR isn't up and deal significant damage while checking important threats. The exact same amount of support doesn't pay off nearly as well with Kyurem-W.

Also, I don't think donkey was trying to say 4MSS is a good thing as much as just lay out the differences in a quick sentence. Basically, he was saying that Groudon has the advantage of Roar/Dtail but that can't always be taken advantage of because of 4MSS while Landorus checks the very common ground types in the metagame and reduces a team's weakness to mega Blaziken instead of reinforcing it.

annabeth - I actually like the idea behind your set. Too early and not enough general support to warrant a bump but I'm definitely going to keep it in mind when I teambuild.

Hack - Fair points about Dark Arceus, I'll drop him down as there's already been a few gripes about him.

Whimsicott is something that's probably better in practice than it is on paper. The main appeal to it is that the typing is extremely good as it gives it a number of key resistances, and although it isn't very bulky, prankster allows you to fully invest in the defenses while still outrunning other pokemon. The bulk and typing is enough that against more defensive teams you can create multiple free turns to engage in a subseed cycle or spread around status/taunt things. Encore further helps in creating free turns. Against more offensive teams, whims with stun spore can threaten to cripple a key sweeper while likely surviving the attack to go on to cripple more. It's basically just a mon that's really good at creating free turns for itself and can follow up with crippling status/subseed cycles that are difficult to break.

Mag2 - Your suggestions aren't bad at all which is why I undeleted your post. That write ups is something I do plan on doing but once the meta settles a bit more, probably once spl ends. The locking of the thread though is something I don't want to do for the reasons fireburn listed. I don't want the QC team to run the thread all by themselves I just want them to serve as judges for arguments so that only reasonable changes are made. Having things being open to the public adds a fluidity to the thread which I feel is important to accurately reflect the constantly changing metagame. I also wanted to use the QC team to decide on an initial list so that there is at least something that is up for newer players to use as a resource. It doesn't have to be perfect as hopefully the community helps smooth the edges. Further changes should be almost exclusively made through this thread. The most recent changes were an exception that gave the appearance that the QC team will also discuss changes in PM because Donkey's suggested changes came as a late response after the thread was already posted. If I had delayed posting the initial list to wait for more people to share their opinions, those changes wouldn't have even been noticed as the initial list would be the one that is currently up. To add on to that, a lot of things were changed by Donkey's suggestions since they mostly concerned mons that the majority of the QC team was unfamiliar or unconcerned with so they more or less just had a very rough placeholder placement or they were pokemon, like Xerneas and mega Gengar, that were nearly placed in S rank but didn't have enough support for that change to be made so the new opinion tipped the scales. I think relying exclusively on these PM exchanges would end up with a list that is uninteresting and too static.

 

[ChaosNemesis]

About our God:

A Rank
High

• 
  (Arceus-Normal)
• Not talking about this one, it's in he right place.

Mid

• 
  (Arceus-Ghost)
• I don't think this one deserve the second best arceus-form place. Ok, it can run effectively SD and CM set, but ghost type isn't mandatory in gen6 like it was in gen5 and now we have 2 new good options (MGengar, Aegislash). On the physical side +2 Extremespeed isn't going to sweep, if you want to simply use EK. Shadow force is something to be scared of but you just need a mon with sub to screw it up. On the other side CM is done better by other type. And if you want a supporceus, don't use this. To me, this form deserve low A at best.

Low

• 
  (Arceus-Electric)
• I agree with this, best CM Arceus.
• 
  (Arceus-Fairy)
  
• I agree with this, fairy is just a wonderful type.
• 
  (Arceus-Water)
• Agreed, great check to so many threats.

B Rank
High

• 
  (Arceus-Ground)
• Never saw one of those, is it used for supporting or what? I really don't know it.
• 
  (Arceus-Rock)
• Best Ho-oh counter, nice EK and MKan check, the best support Arceus right know. Its standard set of Defog/WoW/Recover/Judgement is everywhere. I think this is second-best Arceus form and deserve mid A simply because Ho-oh is such a massive threat this gen and this can stop it for good. Non EK Arceus are mainly CM or support, electric and fairy being best CM users, this one being top support.

Mid

• 
  (Arceus-Dark)
• STAB no more resisted by steel is something great but being Xerneas bait is something that really lowered its value. Still a very nice stallbreaker now suffer competition from Yveltal. Overall this gen hasn't been kind to it and I don't think it worth more than low B.
• 
  (Arceus-Grass)
  
• Great check to many threats Grassceus is always been a geat special sponge. This gen gave to it something to be worry about in the form of MGengar but overall I think it still worth high B.
• 
  (Arceus-Poison)
• This wasn't a thing till fairies came around. Now it find its niche at chaching Xerneas while absorbing toxic. Still a niche mon, low B at max.

Low

• 
  (Arceus-Steel)
• Agreed, too many Ho-oh flying around.

C Rank
High

• 
  (Arceus-Fighting)
• What does this has to offer over other forms? I don't know if it deserves this rank.
• 
  (Arceus-Psychic)
• Never saw it. I don't know.

Mid

• 
  (Arceus-Dragon)
• Without SoulDew it's the only CM + Recover dragon, but that's about it. I agree with this.
• 
  (Arceus-Fire)
  
• Very nice offensive type but god-awful defensively. It's in the same rank as Reshiram and I agree with that.
• 
  (Arceus-Flying)
• I'm sorry but I would never pick this over Yveltal, so I would give a low C at best to it.

Low

• 
  (Arceus-Ice)
• Agreed, ice is a bad type.

D Rank

• Arceus Bug
• This thing is awful.

 

[Fireburn]

Some other suggestions for discussion:

-Kyurem-W, Rayquaza, and Shaymin-S for low B rank.

Honestly, mid B rank is bloated as fuck and these mons are out of place I feel. They are all just cool alternative offensive threats that could work with team support but are goign to need it to deal with their weaknesses to things like SR and aren't really giving you much reason to add to your team beyond having a less common offensive threat to exploit overlooked holes in teambuilding.

-Gyarados for mid B rank.

I know I just complained about that area being bloated but the more I use this mon the more I love it. Normal Gyarados has a really useful typing for the metagame while Mega Gyarados is basically a mini-Bulky Kyogre with Taunt and a Dark typing. You can even run the same set and spread and do a sort of Blaziken check by day, status sponge/stall breaker by night type thing. Normal Gyarados likes having anti-SR support but that isn't too difficult to fit and you can always just remove the weakness by mega evolving so it's fairly self sufficient.

Going to respond to this just because no one else has.

Rayquaza - I think mid B is fine for it. As a wallbreaker, Rayquaza is still extremely terrifying, boasting dual 150/150 offenses, high powered STABs, V-create as another high powered killswitch, and great setup options in SD and DD. SD Ray is often compared to EKiller, and while EKiller is definitely the superior late-game sweeper, Rayquaza is a much better wallbreaker since V-create p. much wrecks everything sans Rock/Water Arceus, the latter of which can only Wisp and Recover or flee, and +2 V-create straight OHKOes stuff like Groudon, Lando-T, and physically bulky Xerneas which is pretty freaking scary. The metagame shifts are honestly a mixed bag for it, as while Fairies suck and Air Lock isn't as useful nowadays since weather was nerfed, Defog is pretty great in helping it get more switches, many people aren't running the Scarfers (Gene, Terrak) that can solidly revenge SD/DD Ray since they're arguably much worse off, and Ray does have some ways of getting around Fairies - V-create obviously hurts and DD sets can run Iron Tail to destroy Xern/Arc-Fairy that think they are sure counters. Ray also has a huge advantage when compared to other wallbreakers in ESpeed which also lets it do considerable work vs. offensive teams and revenge things like Blaziken and GeoXern, or even to finish something off despite Speed drops from V-create or what have you. And although Rayquaza definitely isn't great defensively, it has a few useful properties such as Ground-immunity, Sticky Web immunity, and ability to set up on Water Spout from Scarf Kyogre thanks to Air Lock which is something VERY few Pokemon can punish. I think it still has enough good qualities to justify mid-B.

Shaymin-S - SubSeed Skymin is still a jerk and its typing is good against some common things (Groudon, Ogre, Rock/Water support Arc). It honestly didn't change that much, and although Defog and decreased Ferrothorn/Genesect usage are great benefits increased Ho-Oh usage makes it kind of sad so I guess it comes out even. That being said, Skymin is still frustrating to switch into given Seed Flare has an 80% chance to halve your Special Defense and that combined with Air Slash's 60% flinch rate can often leave your check struggling to land a hit before it dies. Healing Wish and Aromatherapy are also some useful utility moves it gets that can act as team support with a Scarf or 3 Attacks set (kind of like Scarf/LO Xerneas I suppose). And I still prefer this to Whimsicott as a Subseeder since Shaymin-S can actually hurt stuff. And Shaymin-S counters Whimsi thanks to new Stun Spore immunity so there's that too. :P I think mid-B is fine for it too.

Kyurem-W - Honestly idk about this one, all it really has going for it is pure unadulterated force which is certainly good fun, but it has several new checks (Fairies and Aegis) and increased usage of Scizor/bulky Steels due to Xerneas being around and RestTalk Kyogre/Water Arceus being more common sucks. Defog helps but that doesn't change the fact its typing sucks defensively and it just doesn't seem to be as "OMG RUN" when it comes out onto the field as it used to be. I think dropping to B- might be fine, I wouldn't put it any lower because it still has tons of pure unadulterated force and it does love pink blobs sucking a lot more. Plus, like Rayquaza it is pretty decent at punishing Scarf Kyogre Spout, but it's not quite as good since it can't quite threaten a sweep.

I don't have much of an opinion on Gyarados, I could see it being bumped up to B- I GUESS but mid B seems too much of a jump.

 

[C AllStar]

The initial list is far to generous imo

Landorus-T: This thing is Low A at best. Cheking Groudon, Zekrom and SD Groundceus is cool but just this isn't going to push it as high as High A. Its physical bulk mainly comes from Intimidate while it has pratically non-existant special bulk. This means that scarfed Zekrom can actually switch in and revenge kill a weakened one. Even physically defensive landy takes around 50% from scarfed Outrage without intimidate while even univested Draco Meteor deals up to 60% to 252/0 landy. Defensive Groudon can actually Roar or Dragon Tail it to rack up stealth rock damage if it try to switch in, while all it can do is Toxic or fire off a weak Earthquake. Groundceus is almost non-existant (good mon though) and it is probably a CM varient that uses Ice Beam. Landorus-T fails to check other physical attackers well even with intimidate. It needs to be above 80% to reliably check Jolly Mega Blaziken while adamant can possibly OHKO it after rocks (jolly is usually better though). Against Extremekiller, only a jolly varient with no boosting items (dumb set) fail to 2HKO physically defensive landy after rocks, while even 252+ Superpower fails to OHKO 4/0 Arceus-N. Obviously, this is not a real case since landy cant fully invest in all of hp, atk and dfd. Landy fails to be a reliable check to the main physical attackers in Ubers. Its scarf set is cool, but EdgeQuake fails to hit most of Ubers super effectively, which is required to ko a target in Ubers thanks to their immense bulk. I am not saying Landorus-T is bad by any means since it is a great utility mon that checks some of the top threats in Ubers, but it is not reliable enough some times to deserve a spot in high A.

Scizor: Scizor is really overrated and should be Mid B. Contrary to what Mega Scizor's stats and movepool suggests, it does not have either the offensive or defensive ability to succeed in Ubers. Mega Scizor has serious 4mss. It obviously needs Bullet Punch in order to be worth in Ubers as a Xerneas check. It needs Roost to capitalize on its bulk or it will be outclassed by CB Scizor which hits harder. U-turn provides great scouting utility. Knock off and Toxic are it only way to harm the bulky Uber bennomoths. Defog if you cant fit it on your Arceus. Superpower is needed or else Extremekiler wont give it a fuck, especially lum varients. While its attack stat seems on par of the ubers, it lacks a high bp move as well as a boosting item to take advantage of it. It shouldn't be the only check for Xern since it needs to be nearly half health for 252+ Bullet Punch to kill while +2 Thunder nearly kills it (not mentioning hp fire). While its typing and bulk suggests it to be an Extremekiller counter, in reality it is unable to deal meaningful damage to it without Superpower while +2 LO Earthquake easily 2HKOes even the bulkiest Scizor without rocks thanks to its lack of lefties. It is also not a good defogger since it lacks the bulk to avoid 2HKOes from even resisted hits after taking hazards while failing to even roost thanks to its lackster speed. Plus, it is outsped by ever taunter in the tier and is pretty easy to wear down through double switching in things like Ho-oh and Kyogre. It automatically gives switches in to the biggest threats in ubers namely mmx, kyogrw, ho-oh, yveltal etc. CB Scizor hits harder, but can never switch in with its poor bulk while gives free switch ins like a champ when locked into anything other than u-turn. While Scizor has been used in quite a lot of my teams, it is usually performing underwhelmingly while opposing scizors never give me any problem. I have even stalled out Scizors with my WoW Gracesus as well as StallTwo. Mid B is a better place for Scizor.

 

[Hack]

I liked your post in the beginning, looked very serious and professional, but then you mentioned Groundceus being a CM variant more than SD, which makes me doubt in if you actually played the game or just faked knowledge. When you say Jolly is better for Mega-Blaziken, it really makes me doubt what you actually know about playing the tier in practice contra what you can theorymon. Furthermore, it's not realistic for Zekrom to switch into a Lando-T to revenge kill it, because doing 50 % is not really great if you want revenge kill something slow and specially frail with locking yourself into Outrage anyway (just bring in something like a Kyogre). I won't rant further, I will just say that faking knowledge won't get you too far.

But yes, I agree that Lando-T shouldn't really be a higher rank than Groundon- Ground has better Special defense and Drought that can make Kyogre a stranded whale, excellent set up fodder. Roar and Dragon Tail has been pointed out as a disadvantage because Groudon gets a 4MSS. The idea of having a phazing move being bad is stupid, these moves help tremendously against Ekiller, DD Groudon etc. Groudon also has Fire-moves and Thunder Wave to further differentiate it. I really like Lando-T, it definitely belongs in A-rank together with Groudon, both have advantages over each other.

About Scizor, U-turn isn't as good as you think and doesn't reinforce the 4MSS, Toxic (which is needed) punishes switches somewhat. As you say, it's not a good Defog user- not should it use Defog often meaning the 4MSS is as big as it might seem. While Scizor can't coutner Ekiller, it can deal good damage to it before going down- doing well over 60 % at the very least with 252+ Superpower isn't all bad. Look at some prominent E-killer check through the generations 5 and 6: Fightceus couldn't OHKO, defensive Yveltal doesn't OHKO, even Terrakion couldn't OHKO. All these mons will fall to a full health E-killer. Does it mean that they are bad checks? No not at all. All you need is a bit prior damage and then you can finish it off with strong move. What Scizor provides is a bulky mon that can take one attack from a boosted E-killer and deal over 60 % back- it's really not too shabby. Concerning Xerneas, the idea isn't to completely counter Geoxerneas either. But having that emergency Bullet Punch that does well over half at worst let's you get away with having less strict sense counters too it. So basically you get a good soft check to both GeoXern and Ekiller in one mon.

Against your examples of what mons gets in for free on Scizor makes me wonder. Kyogre doesn't get free switch ins, Toxic decreases Water Spouts power and Suporpower does a fair chunk. MMX gets toxiced and can't OHKO when it gets in, meaning it has to eat 2 Bullet Punches if Scizor chooses to stay in. Yveltal is problematic but it also takes a chunk for Superpower, and Toxic does hamper it. It is true that Scizor kinda let's Ho-oh switch in for free (I disagree on Kyogre really, Superpower does a fair chunk and it's not too bad if Kyogre gets in for free if you have some check, which you should) but Toxic still limits Ho-oh's staying power, and makes it prone to getting recover stalled by support Arceus and defensive Yveltal. Ho-oh is very prevalent anyway, and teams should be built for force SR up and limit its staying power by using other mons/toxic to force it out. Lastly, you bring up an example where Grassceus has WoW+recover stalled out Scizor. Did your opponents/you have a brain at the point of that game? Your opponent could easily roost off damage and Toxic stall you in that scenario. Stalltwo can stall it out but you absolutely can't risk getting poisoned here either- so switching in has to be done with care and if you are up vs Scizor 1v1 you risk a stupid mindgame where you can either Taunt to predict the Toxic or WoW to predict U-turn, and your opponent doesn't lose much by just going for Toxic in that scenario, mind you. In summary, Scizor glues together teams by providing a safety net to some prominent sweepers. Of course priority has a lot of other situational uses, like picking off Deoxys-A. Also, I didn't talk about specially defensive Scizor with pursuit that can really turn the tables on Mega-Gengar, but I guess that's for another argument.

 

[MMII]

But yes, I agree that Lando-T shouldn't really be a higher rank than Groundon- Ground has better Special defense and Drought that can make Kyogre a stranded whale, excellent set up fodder. Roar and Dragon Tail has been pointed out as a disadvantage because Groudon gets a 4MSS. The idea of having a phazing move being bad is stupid, these moves help tremendously against Ekiller, DD Groudon etc. Groudon also has Fire-moves and Thunder Wave to further differentiate it. I really like Lando-T, it definitely belongs in A-rank together with Groudon, both have advantages over each other.

Would have been nicer if you mentioned your disagreement when I asked for objections but oh well. Again, I don't think the argument was that having Roar is a bad thing cause 4mss. I think Donkey was just pointing out the differences while mentioning that phazing isn't as cool cause 4mss and it's arguably the easiest move to drop on Donner. (it was a dissection in 2 sentences, lol)

Anyways, Donner pros:
-phazing (but can it fit it?)
-iron defense means that it's better suited for staying in an extended period (ie: RP/SD sets)
-sun to mess with kyogre, boost your fire mons
-fire stab and twave (but where can you fit those if phazing is already hard?)
-rock resist (hi sr)
-better special bulk (I don't know if there are any clutch calcs but I'm assuming they are there)
-SLIGHTLY better attack (10 more points which is pebbles since they are both already in the big numbers)

Lando pros:
-growl means it works just as well when checking a specific mon and can help another team member check something you couldn't otherwise (sack lando for intimidate and bring in a new check)
-ground immunity to check all the ground types everybody is using cause zekrom is hip
-bug resist to switch in on U-turns (although those aren't really around like they used to be)
-no sun means that lando can help check blaze (either by being healthy or cause intimidate) instead of making your team weaker to it (which would then require additional support being added to your team to resolve that weakness as is the case with donner)
-U-turn for momentum grabbing (although it's pretty 4mss too and only worth on certain teams)
-webs + spikes immunity

IMO, there may be less of them but the Lando pros I feel are a lot more important and relevant than the Groudon ones. (which are mostly secondary move options that are difficult to fit anyways)

 

[C AllStar]

I am pretty sure that I have never said anything about CM Groundceus being good lol. It is just a possibility that can be considered (bad set though, being ho-oh bait unlike Electriceus). Jolly Blaze is better if you run Protect over Knock off or SD since it can revenge things like base 90 to 100 scarfers and adds on utility when it can't sweep. Also, while my Zekrom revenging is quite a stretch, my aim is to show that Landorus-T does not have the sheer bulk to take hits some times. Things like Extremekiller can actually set up on its face after it killed something. Lack of phazing moves only make it worse as it is heavily reliant on toxic to deal with Extremekiller and Groundceus. It isn't a good check to ground types as everyone thinks. U-turn is non existant now so bug resistance isn't that important while it is not a good check to Mega Blaziken anyway when it is possibly OHKOed after rocks. Web immunity is not that important since it isn't meant to outspeed anything anyway despite its cool speed tier. Spikes immunity is not that good despite defog being proved not as easy when offensive pressure can usually limit to only rocks or sometimes a layer of spikes. I will consider it to be even with Groudon's SR resistance. Having Drought or not is mainly team preference so both Groudon and Landy are even on that regard. So landy's main advantage is intimidate to weaken physical attackers that can help checking physical threats after it fainting. Groudon's phazing move is far more invaluable for me to soft check a magnitude of physical attackers. For 4mss, edgequake, rocks and phaze seems a good enough set for me. Maybe I am to harsh for it my last post but Landy shouldn't be any higher thand Groudon.

For Scizor, sorry for not clarifying I am against CB Scizor on those cases. My main arguement on Scizor is how easy it is to wear down despite its access to Roost. A resisted move usually does around 50% to it after rocks, meaning it has to either roost and give a free switch or either attack or double switch to leave itself weakened. Scizor is an ultimate momentum loser despite having access to u-turn and is heavily reliant on teamates to take care of the free turns it gives to the opposition. Despite this, it can still be wear down by a few clever switching and fail to even fire off a Superpower on e-killer. +2 252+ LO EQ deals up to 75% to 252/4 varients, meaning it is not safe after SR and one layer of spikes. None of the Arceus checks are as hazard weak as Scizor (no resistance to any hazard PLUS no lefties). Scizor is top B rank at best.

 

[MMII]

Groundceus is almost non-existant (good mon though) and it is probably a CM varient that uses Ice Beam.

I agree with it being a good mon but not in the same sentence as CM. :p

Adamant mega blaze outspeeds all the common scarfers in this meta so, ye, jolly sux.

Intimidate is often times better than general bulk in a lot of cases cause ground types are often used for hit and run this gen. (although, if you run phazing it obviously helps to not rely on it) I wouldn't really call it a drawback cause a physical attacker has to be nuts or in a perfect scenario to come in on Lando.

Your groudon set is very easy to defog on which sucks because you put SR on it.

Webs immunity is huge when you play webs, lando is very annoying for a lot of their builds. Spikes offense is one of the best playstyles this gen now that people know how to beat defog.

Groudon's sun makes your team weaker to mega blaze which tightens your building because you have to run more checks to mega blaze to counter balance that. Lando actually loosens your teambuilding some as even if it is at low health you can use it to gimp a sweep.

In general, I get the impression that you are trying to get your lando and your sciz to come in repeatedly or be your only check to ekiller. They are good at what they do but they are no means meant to be hard stops to stuff like ekiller, blaze, and xern. Just a substantial obstacle that works well when you can pressure these mons with the rest of your team. I'm guessing that you've been using the max hp max def landorus (and probably the same with scizor), have you tried the max attack, max speed addy lando with eplate? (as well as the max hp max attack mega sciz that you can find in the analysis)