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XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)
- Thread starter Aldaron
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No mean to offend at all but this post just made me cringe really hard.
Do you really think Heatran is the only counter?
What is it gonna do vs Rotom-W? Worst case scenario +1 u-turn which does about 33%.
What is it gonna do vs Rotom-H? This Pokemon resists Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Flamethrower and is immune to HP ground. Not to mention the U-Turn resist too.
Genesect is 99% of the time going to have a choice scarf. Say you use Ice Beam, and the opponent switches Heatran in. What do you do? Can't U-Turn and can't HP Ground. Switch.
If you have a Pokemon that can switch in safely and intimidates the threat to the point where it has to switch out, I'd say its a counter.
trying out band gene and omg that thing hits so hard! U-turn hits Rotom-W so hard its not even funny. I tried out the sets you listed and i agree it is a very diverse pokemon that should be banned. scarf is fast + strong, band hits harder than like Mega Garchomp and now you have to deal with expert belt. there is no need that this should be ou
as a side note, i never said that gene should stay ou. my main focus was that gene should prolly be banned mainly of the powerful cores it forms like genetrio and and genetar and genetran
The point about Genesect is that it's U-turn is safer and stronger than any other U-turn by a large margin. The downside of an unsafe switch is mitigated by the fact that the Genesect user knows you've stayed in and can act accordingly. This isn't even about Genesect, it's about U-turn. Every good Genesect team will have pivots to fall back on. Genesect is worth banning because his U-turn is too damn strong. The only real counter to his U-turn is a slower volt-turn, assuming your Pokemon can take that U-turn.
Genesect can run energy ball over thunderbolt specifically to hit Rotom-W, which is far more useful than you'd think since Rotom-W almost always leads and almost always stays in on Genesect. Even if genesect is running choice scarf "99% of the time", he could be faking one and using expert belt instead, which again is another example of how great he is at being unpredictable. Also, Rotom-W can't really do much back to Genesect, so it isn't really a counter.
Rotom-H really isn't too good of a Pokemon by OU standards. SR weakness, weakness to common attacking moves like rock and water, unlike Rotom-W -> sole grass weakness, lulz. Overheat has serious drawbacks unlike Hydro Pump. I don't know what else to say to that.
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Well, how about Kyu-B and rain Keldeo in the last gen than? Those things basically 2HKO the entire Meta, and Genesect U-turn by nowhere strong enough to deserve a ban.
If Ebelt is an element of surprise, HP ground and Energy ball are simply gimmick.
I have also show many arguments in the former posts, I know they tend to be text wall but please read it if you are engaging yourself in formal debate/
Neither is a gimmick. Personally, I've used both, and guess what? Rotom-W or Heatran becomes a non-check, scarcely counter. How is that a gimmick?
Kyu-B and Keldeo's strong moves don't switch them out of danger after using them and give them momentum on switches. If you want to compare Kyu-B/Keldeo to something else compare them to M-Luke.
Gimmick in the sense that Genesect becomes outright unusable in the case that neither present, or even in cases when they actually presents given that your opponent plays smart enough and knows how to manage the risk against Genesect besides mindlessly switch in the thoughtless counter.
I think it was the sheer power that you are talking about?
Hold on.
Hello?
The grammar mistake makes this statement a little tough to understand, so forgive me if I misinterpret it.
But are you saying that it's not any easier to switch in to a banded u-turn as opposed to a scarf u-turn?
Buddy, there's a WORLD of difference in power between the two
I could go on and on in calcs, but lets just see a relevant one.
252 Atk Choice Band Genesect U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 111-132 (36.5 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
vs.
4 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 61-73 (20 - 24%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
See the gigantic difference in power? A defensive rotom-w can take any one hit from genesect with relative ease, but the same does simply not hold true for banded genesect.
It also doesn't matter too much that people know that you're banded, simply because they can't do much about it. They cannot take advantage of the fact that you're choice locked because you're gonna be spamming u-turn anyway. So that argument is a little irrelevant. Sure, it can be revenged, but that applies to any genesect regardless.
Let's take a look at the relevant rock/ghost/steels of the tier and see how scarf handles them better.
Aegislash: Flamethrower isn't a 2hko w/out boost, and all aegislash are ev'd to avoid download giving a special boost.
Ferrothorn: Flamethrower is obvious AF and ferrothorn can protect. Meanwhile, blaze kick on banded genesect is lesser seen. Banded u-turn also hits harder, so if ferrothorn protects then it doesn't do much scouting for him. Banded does this better
Heatran: Banded does this better, speed doesn't matter against your hard counter.
Gengar:
+1 4 Atk Genesect Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 229-270 (87.4 - 103%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Genesect Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 118-139 (45 - 53%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Scarf does it better, but only if you carry iron head in the first place, which many don't. Gengar is easily revenged by a lot of other scarfers and almost any priority
Excadrill:
252 SpA Genesect Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 264-312 (72.9 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Genesect Blaze Kick vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 594-700 (164 - 193.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Band does it better
Opposing Genesect: You don't want to risk speed tie, so both lose
Klefki: You don't want to be paralyzed, both lose
Lucario: This is actually a relevant scenario in which scarf is better.
+1 252 SpA Genesect Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 370-436 (131.6 - 155.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
However:
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 192-228 (67.8 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It isn't hard to knock genesect into that range anyway, so scarf isn't doing much here either.
Mawile: You have to eat a sucker punch regardless. both lose
Terrakion: Scarf wins, but only if its carrying iron head too. Otherwise both lose
Bisharp: Have to eat a sucker punch regardless. Both lose.
Tyranitar: You outspeed either way, but banded u-turn hits switch-in much harder. Band does this better.
Ferrothorn: Flamethrower is obvious AF and ferrothorn can protect. Meanwhile, blaze kick on banded genesect is lesser seen. Banded u-turn also hits harder, so if ferrothorn protects then it doesn't do much scouting for him. Banded does this better
Heatran: Banded does this better, speed doesn't matter against your hard counter.
Gengar:
+1 4 Atk Genesect Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 229-270 (87.4 - 103%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Genesect Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 118-139 (45 - 53%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Scarf does it better, but only if you carry iron head in the first place, which many don't. Gengar is easily revenged by a lot of other scarfers and almost any priority
Excadrill:
252 SpA Genesect Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 264-312 (72.9 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Genesect Blaze Kick vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 594-700 (164 - 193.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Band does it better
Opposing Genesect: You don't want to risk speed tie, so both lose
Klefki: You don't want to be paralyzed, both lose
Lucario: This is actually a relevant scenario in which scarf is better.
+1 252 SpA Genesect Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 370-436 (131.6 - 155.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
However:
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 192-228 (67.8 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It isn't hard to knock genesect into that range anyway, so scarf isn't doing much here either.
Mawile: You have to eat a sucker punch regardless. both lose
Terrakion: Scarf wins, but only if its carrying iron head too. Otherwise both lose
Bisharp: Have to eat a sucker punch regardless. Both lose.
Tyranitar: You outspeed either way, but banded u-turn hits switch-in much harder. Band does this better.
Scarf sect isn't that much better even at revenging the relevant things.
You forget that ebelt genesect is incredibly rare! Also, you don't have to reveal that you're ebelt the instant an oppurtunity arises.
For example.
If you tbolt a gyarados and the opponent sends in ferrothorn, you can simply hard switch, making it even more convincing that you're scarfed. That makes it more enticing for ferrothorn to come in again, because the opponent believes the ferrothorn is a hard stop to genesect when it is locked into tbolt. You can surprise him later in the match, where it may be more crucial to get rid of.
This is taking advantage of surprise, not just unpredictability. Ebelt genesect can utilize both! Don't underestimate surprise.
It's not about having great coverage, its about bluffing a scarf well to get rid of walls.
Who said that a pokemon has to be used in SPL to be effective? You're just running out of arguments.
The fact that the already brilliant U-turn is made really strong. Not Kyub/Keldeo/Luke strong, but strong enough to threaten a lot of Pokemon.
Mega Lucario seems to be the most likely candidate... But I think it stays. Sure, it's offenses are fantastic and there are very few counters, but it's still very frail, especially on the special side. A strong STAB special attack usually OHKOs, and physically it's weak to EQ, Fighting Moves, and more. Lucario remains an incredible OU mon due to its incredible offensive prowess, don't get me wrong, but broken?
I think the deal is not that EBelt is rare (because good players will use it), but that it capitalizes so well on the prominence of Scarfsect. The opponent cannot risk Genesect being Scarfed, and must play accordingly. Your Ferrothorn w/ Protect example? Genesect switches out, preserving the bluff and gaining its user momentum due to the wasted turn. It then smacks Ferrothorn later on. Besides that point, Ferrothorn misses a good move for Protect. It needs SR and Leech Seed to get crap done. Then it has room for two of Power Whip / Gyro Ball / TWave / Protect. Protect is often left behind in the process.
Rotom-W and Heatran get a ton of OU usage. You know how many non-HO teams don't have one of the two? Few at best. It's not like Genesect is hitting obscure threats, these are top 10 Pokemon. It still has 3/4 slots without these Pokemon, which is more than enough to make an impact. It has gained an invaluable tool if the target is present. Also, there's no managing risk. Someone else made a post on this, but in short: the odds are heavily in the Genesect user's favor.
What he's saying is the U-turn is powerful, especially if backed by +1 boost and/or CB, AND Genesect has a myriad of other options. You are attempting to isolate characteristics of Genesect, and that doesn't make sense.
I edited my post. HP ground is a gimmick.
Energy ball is good if you're using a pokemon like Mega-Pinsir that struggles against Rotom-W, as you can seriously damage Rotom-W right off the bat making it easier for Pinsir to sweep. And Rotom-W is an extremely common lead from my experience.
Genesect's offensive capablilities are impressive enough to overlook other great moves like Giga Drain for a Life Orb set. BoltBeam just hits too many pokemon for neutral damage and it has the second most powerful U-Turn after Scizor unless it gets the download boost. It can do so many roles for your team depending what your opponent is running or even how he is playing.
Though Scarfed Genesect is pretty accessable for anyone, Expert Belt is pretty nice for experienced players in particular, since they can bluff choiced items pretty well. It allows one to see how the opponent is reacting and then being able to create an oppening to strike back.
Though Scarfed Genesect is pretty accessable for anyone, Expert Belt is pretty nice for experienced players in particular, since they can bluff choiced items pretty well. It allows one to see how the opponent is reacting and then being able to create an oppening to strike back.
There are plenty of arguments about Mega Lucario in the earlier pages of this thread.
The fact that it has massive Atk and SpA stats, means to boost them both, an amazing ability in Adaptability, speed to hold the offense, four times resistance to stealth rock, and priority to nab potential counters makes him broken enough IMO.
Let's focus the discussion on Genesect and Deoxys-S. I think there isn't anything else to say about Mega Lucario.
Here is my most comprehensive assessment of Genesect. Genesect is not a true sweeper in the sense that it cannot stay in and destroy and opponent's entire team one by one. Genesect is able to revenge kill a large portion of OU with its scarf set as well as break a large portion of OU walls with a few exceptions with Download combined with its great coverage. There are Pokemon like Heatran and Rotom-H which Genesect cannot muscle through in one sitting. And of course there is U-turn which allows Genesect to maintain momentum for the user. Now that I've laid out what Genesect is and isn't able to do, I'll tell you why Genesect should be banned from OU. If you want a great revenge killer, Genesect is a great option for your team. If you want a great wall breaker, Genesect is a great option for your team. If you want an offensive presence which can maintain momentum, Genesect is a great option for your team. So, the question I present is this: why wouldn't you want to use Genesect on an offensive team? You could point out its minor flaws. It is somewhat frail. It is worn down by hazards. It cannot get to +2 attack or special attack reliably which means it cannot sweep. However, every offensive Pokemon in OU suffers from some of these flaws or a lack of speed in addition and nothing else brings these three positive characteristics together like Genesect. So once again, why wouldn't you use Genesect? A lot of good players do use Genesect because it is a great aid to so many offensive teams. The roles Genesect fulfills would otherwise take up several teamslots. This is why Genesect is unhealthy for OU. It is often used as a substitute for creative team building in order to handle a large number of OU pokemon. You don't have to give up speed or momentum for wall breaking power. As a stall player, I find this troubling. If someone gives up some speed and momentum to put a wall breaker like Mega Garchomp or Kyurem-B on their team, I am okay with that. That is part of the trade off involved with team building to combat multiple play styles. What frustrates me is when people use Genesect to break and wear down walls when it comes at very little to no cost in terms of revenge killing potential and momentum. Genesect gets to have it all on one move set. Many people who do not want to see Genesect banned say that it is worn down by SR ( every offensive pokemon is worn down by SR, even Talonflame is able to thrive in OU despite the fact it loses 50% of its HP compared to only 12.5% for Genesect ), that its U-turn isn't that powerful ( I don't know why people seriously think that STAB, Download boosted U-turn off of 120 base attack is considered chip damage ), that it is frail ( 71 / 95 / 95 defenses with Bug / Steel typing is not terrible, and besides, it is fast and powerful enough that it doesn't need to be that bulky, kind of like the banned Deoxys forms ), that it requires prediction ( U-turn does not require prediction, the worst case scenario for Genesect is that it won't do much damage but will still give you a favorable matchup. If you can predict well with Genesect, you can kill Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Gliscor, Landorus-T, etc. with the appropriate coverage move. ). The fact is that Genesect's strengths are numerous and far-reaching, and its flaws are very minor ones which competent players can easily make a non-issue. In many ways, it is like Tornadus-T was last generation in that it can hit fast and hard with great coverage with few repercussions and no sacrifice of momentum even though neither is really a sweeper. Because of this, I believe there is precedent for banning Genesect using this reasoning. I can understand why players who like to use Genesect are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole by saying it should stay in OU. Genesect is so convenient to use and solves so many problems which is why they think of it as a niche option which pulls their team together instead of what it really is: a one size fits all remedy to the issues with their team which is what Ubers are capable of doing. Feel free to dispute this argument, but remember it doesn't hold much weight if you are not doing well on the suspect ladder without Genesect.
No one is going to read that unless you use paragraphs.
I've never actually had any trouble with Mega Lucario. I think Mawile is worse but oh well. Genesect on the other hand, I despise. Way too strong especially with its viability and free download boost. I have no comment on Deoxys
So I just had this really good battle and I was using Choice Band Geensect that was able to get me a win :D, +2 extremespeed is deadily lategame, Heres a replay to watch I am Diakon Entite btw:http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-83651244
I only bring up expert belt because you said that from team preview you can tell if it's choice locked. It's a valid situation where that assumption can easily come back to bite you. By safe I did not mean it will always gain Genesect momentum, I meant there is no danger of losing Genesect, and very little danger to it's team mate. If you don't have anything to bring in against an opponent who stays in, 1.) you should consider restructuring your team or 2.) don't U-Turn. While staying in has a chance to generate the most rewards, it also comes with the greatest inherent risk: Handing Genesect a free KO. You also say don't switch, but VoltTurn teams love to remove that option. As such, they're more likely to bring Genesct in against one of the Latis (who are decent choices to absorb a Volt Switch), Blissey, Zam, Espeon or anything that cannot afford to take a U-Turn. That is one of the core principles of VoltTurn, and while immensely frustrating, is not broken. What is broken about Genesect is that it's sufficient power and coverage allow it to brutalize a large portion of OU that might switch in. Since the majority of your team will not likely want to switch into a U-Turn, both taking the damage and having to immediately stare down a counter your pool of switch ins is limited. Thus Genesect has 2 choices: U-turn, or most likely coverage. The option that Genesect isn't dealing with something bug weak/physically frail is valid, but if you show a tendency to stay in, the genesect user is likely to notice the pattern and punish it. You can counter this with prediction, but you would have to guess (essentially at random) the turn in which Genesect will change tactics, while Genesect only needs you to keep doing what you have been doing to take advantage. You can always try being completely erratic, but this is generally considered a sub-par strategy.
Assuming you have hard counters to the threats listed, one free turn isn't the end of the world (you didn't specify if they were switching in to the neutral hits, or if Genesect was already in on them), while taking that much out of Aegislash (or a lot of other offensive pokes) can prevent a sweep, since it has no healing but lefties.
Scizor ran bulk on it's banded, trapper and bulky SD sets last gen, but the offensive SD set ran speed, making the comparison valid.
Ok guys, the Council has decided that the new requirement for the suspect ladder will be a rating of 1400 ELO, with the standard 50 or less Glicko 1 deviation.
Also, should you fail to achieve that requirement, you can still submit a special application. Remember to keep an high win rate in this case.
Keep laddering and good luck everyone.
Also, should you fail to achieve that requirement, you can still submit a special application. Remember to keep an high win rate in this case.
Keep laddering and good luck everyone.
You could say the same about Mega Venusaur and its defensive capabilities, as it is a great asset to defensive teams. What you proved here is that Genesect is versatile, a fact that has been hammered on many times in the previous posts. I don't see how this argument proves beyond doubt that Genesect is unhealthy for the metagame. Don't get me wrong, I am also a stall player, and I haven't had many problems with Genesect.
But Banded Genesect and EBelt Genesect perform worse against offensive (faster) teams in general. Surely a faster team can take advantage of the knowledge that Genesect cannot outspeed their faster Pokemon (except with ExtremeSpeed) but that does not have great coverage. Against a faster threat that Genesect may want to take out, it will have to use ExtremeSpeed, not U-Turn, so there is no threat of momentum if Genesect scores a kill, or if the opponent uses E-Speed on a switch in that can take it. Like Iron Head, ESpeed has worse coverage than a Scarf Iron Head, but it can at least hit Water, Fire (with the exception of Heatran of course) and Electric types neutrally.
The Band reveals the use of its item for an observant Rotom-W user, and she can act accordingly to the Genesect, especially if it is sent in against her faster Pokemon. The EBelt/Scarf still leaves in her mind some doubt and she may play against the Genesect with an irrational or suboptimal risk-aversion.
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I would say that a good E-Belt user should do a good job of playing the fool. Genesect for her is not about scoring momentum but about creating an illusion of security. To her, the momentum lost earlier in the match by "locking" herself in to a coverage move earlier in the match, and then switching out is judged to be worth the reward of killing a high value sitting duck later on. Still, if there are no Rocky Helmet users, U-turn on something that it can kill with it is optimal because she can present a (very predictable but sound) gambit to the opponent as to whether to lose material or preserve it and forfeit momentum to the Genesect user by preserving its target: that gambit can be freely accepted or denied. But that would be true, even to the Scarf set. However, if the target is not within KO range and Genesect is just looking to wear it down, a defensive Pokemon can just sponge the hit and attacking the switch in or use an advantageous status move. EBelt Genesect's U-turn cannot be used to "wear down" defensive Pokemon since other offensive Pokemon should do the job better and are less susceptible to Protect and can be less affected by ability or Rocky Helmet damage due to those Pokemon's ability to switch moves and arsenal of non-contact moves. If EBelt Genesect has some enormous future value to her, she would not likely use it has a U-turner to generate damage because it can hamper its ability to make that kill later on. In other words, it is suboptimal to use U-Turn as a means to wear down an opponent unless the opponent's moveset has been scouted for things such as Protect. Protect on a Chansey means Genesect would have to select use U-Turn again on the next turn on a potential switch-in to a Rocky Helmet Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn, Garchomp, or Skarmory. Her Genesect would have accomplished nothing while it would be exposed to hazard damage and she has to forfeit momentum to further protect Genesect's health. As we can see, EBelt Genesect does not easily generate kills or momentum against stall.
Even U-turn is dependent on the composition its user's team because your opponent can switch into something that she team cannot take on, such as a Fairy. She may use her Genesect to use Iron Head to anticipate the Fairy switch, and using U-Turn would not be optimal because of the option to the opponent to switch into a Fairy. Using Iron Head on an "anticipated" switch will reveal her desire to nail it on the switch and how much she values the elimination of that Fairy. If she has no Pokemon that can prevent effectively deal with the Fairy, then U-Turn would not be optimal since it takes out her main Pokemon with the tool that can remove the Fairy because her other switch-ins fail to do the job.
If she uses a special coverage move against something, anticipating the opponent to switch the Fairy to absorb a U-Turn or a special move, the Fairy user may use Protect to scout whether the Genesect will switch moves into Iron Head. In order to preserve the illusion, the Genesect user should not be too eager and be prepared to forfeit a turn for a kill later on.
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