However, this is bullshit. HP ground is not a gimmick, it is a well designed lure on any genesect for a pokemon that is very common, heatran. Heatran is sometimes forced out (or WANTS to come in on genesect), making HP ground a highly successful ploy. There is no gimmick to it.
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XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)
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However, this is bullshit. HP ground is not a gimmick, it is a well designed lure on any genesect for a pokemon that is very common, heatran. Heatran is sometimes forced out (or WANTS to come in on genesect), making HP ground a highly successful ploy. There is no gimmick to it.
Thanks for the 1400 ELO change, I can probably make requirements now.
As for my opinion..
Deoxys-S: It's good, but not that good. It's like a better Aerodactyl in my opinion. Amazing speed, decent attack, and lacking in bulk. Also lacking in a decent attacking movepool. The only role is really to be a Taunt/Spikes/Rocks lead, which quite frankly doesn't scare me. I've never had trouble with Deoxys-S.
Mega-Lucario: There are quite a few variations to how you can run Mega-Lucario. A special/physical/mix, for example. And each set WILL have it's own weaknesses. The special set has to rely on Vacuum Wave alone for priority.. which is easy enough to counter. The physical set quite honestly is countered by Mega-Lucario special set completely, and while it has Extremespeed and BP for priority, it would do MUCH better with a fighting priority. The only set I will even considered somewhat broken is a mixed set, but even then, it leaves Lucario up to many vulnerabilities. His defenses are lackluster and I honestly don't think he is that overpowered.
Genesect: I run both Genesect and Mega-Lucario on my team and basically the goal is to support them in just murdering opponents left and right. Everytime though, I find that Genesect is the MVP and puts in the most work. His typing is much better, he is far more unpredictable, he gets a friggin free attack boost, an awesome move pool, you can pretty much bring Genesect on any Pokemon and scare it out or deal serious damage to it.. Choice Scarf Genesect by the way checks both Mega-Lucario and Deoxys-S. (As long as Deoxys-S doesn't have Fire Punch, which I haven't seen anybody run for some reason.) There is just too many situations where Genesect is good. Deoxys-S and Mega-Lucario aren't like that. For them you have to create these situations. But Genesect can just come in whenever and completely demolish. It's hard to explain, cause I am a total idiot, but I definitely think out of the three choices Genesect is the only one who should be banned out of OU.
As for my opinion..
Deoxys-S: It's good, but not that good. It's like a better Aerodactyl in my opinion. Amazing speed, decent attack, and lacking in bulk. Also lacking in a decent attacking movepool. The only role is really to be a Taunt/Spikes/Rocks lead, which quite frankly doesn't scare me. I've never had trouble with Deoxys-S.
Mega-Lucario: There are quite a few variations to how you can run Mega-Lucario. A special/physical/mix, for example. And each set WILL have it's own weaknesses. The special set has to rely on Vacuum Wave alone for priority.. which is easy enough to counter. The physical set quite honestly is countered by Mega-Lucario special set completely, and while it has Extremespeed and BP for priority, it would do MUCH better with a fighting priority. The only set I will even considered somewhat broken is a mixed set, but even then, it leaves Lucario up to many vulnerabilities. His defenses are lackluster and I honestly don't think he is that overpowered.
Genesect: I run both Genesect and Mega-Lucario on my team and basically the goal is to support them in just murdering opponents left and right. Everytime though, I find that Genesect is the MVP and puts in the most work. His typing is much better, he is far more unpredictable, he gets a friggin free attack boost, an awesome move pool, you can pretty much bring Genesect on any Pokemon and scare it out or deal serious damage to it.. Choice Scarf Genesect by the way checks both Mega-Lucario and Deoxys-S. (As long as Deoxys-S doesn't have Fire Punch, which I haven't seen anybody run for some reason.) There is just too many situations where Genesect is good. Deoxys-S and Mega-Lucario aren't like that. For them you have to create these situations. But Genesect can just come in whenever and completely demolish. It's hard to explain, cause I am a total idiot, but I definitely think out of the three choices Genesect is the only one who should be banned out of OU.
Then props to a player that is able use it effectively then. If he can use an HP Ground Genesect to kill Heatran, it would mean forfeiting its capacity to be effective in other ways, especially against teams without Heatran where HP Ground would be useless.
It is a gimmick due to its high opportunity cost (as HP Ground cannot do anything else except kill Heatran without a Balloon and this requires highly specialized situations), but the benefit comes from its surprise value due to HP Ground's almost non-existent use in the metagame.
252+ SpA Life Orb Genesect Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 244-291 (63.2 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It is highly situational since it requires Heatran to have prior damage or the use to switch into Heatran. Focus Sash does less damage, but reduces Genesect's health to 1 if it gets Plumed (and has a non-trivial 30% chance of dying anyway; people call it "Focus Miss" for a reason in frustration, you know, and many do not want to bother with Focus Blast). It also requires the Heatran no to have Air Balloon. If it does and Genesect is leading, then it has to switch out and have the hazards removed to maintain the Focus Sash.
Download boost would work, but it is a Focus Blast...
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Genesect Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 369-437 (95.5 - 113.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Scarf Genesect is probably the easiest to user Scarfer in the game due to its fast U-Turn removing a significant element of prediction (which takes all the yuckness of Choicing out for me) since using U-Turn just presents my opponent with a predictably clear gambit of losing material or surrendering momentum that allows me worry less (but certainly does not eliminate it) about the potential switch in, but it is still not easy to use. It does require an assessment of risk too.
Indeed, something has to be the easiest Scarfer to use. I just do not want to stress over EdgeQuake with Lando-T or Garchomp. Or worry about Fairies with ScarfChomp. Or having a Volt Switch hit a Ground type or Tricking the "right" Pokemon with Scarf Rotom. The STAB Download U-Turn gives me a larger window for a KO with it, make it the easiest Scarfer to use. Its predictability make Genesect tactical and less reliant on gambling, and I perceive it to give me an edge because it fits my playing style more.
If I feel that I may need to use its speed later in an important revenge killing function. I will not expose it to any entry hazards, so its scouting operations are shut down.
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>Defenses are lack luster
>It's a fucking sweeper with 145/140/112 offenses
Honestly if something with those offenses would also have great defenses it would've been quickquickbanned. Almost every sweeper in that amazing speed tier has weak defenses. Saying a sweeper has lackluster defenses isn't really a counter argument IMO because that is what almost every sweeper has naturally because it's a sweeper. Now saying it is weak to two of the most common typings (used offensively) like Ground and Fighting that would make more sense.
While every set obviously has it own weaknesses those weaknesses are pretty different from each other. Although Gyarados and Zapdos can do pretty well against both I believe (to tired to do the calcs).
suspect reqs, i don't have a gun
ou reqs, bailamos
overall pretty easy, the suspect ones especially. gonna vote to ban megaluke for the various reasons stated above. other suspects like genesect / deo / other megas will probably need some more time to see. thanks to tilting, trip on my, and this ain't spl for making the last part of laddering awesome.
The strategic aspect to it is reduced for the opponent. Very few things can reliably revenge kill it. The strategic burden is immensely placed on the opponent since has to employ tactics and Pokemon than can counter the most used movesets as any permutation of moves are almost all equally viable, and gives its user enormous information asymmetry just by using the damn thing. A tactic to kill it is using the presence of a Pokemon that outspeeds (and is relatively healthy) Jolly base 91s to damage it (while let it set-up and sacrificing itself) and then using something like AV Conkeldurr's Mach Punch to clean up. As one can see, this tactic constrains team building: one has to use a powerful STAB priority user AND fast Pokemon, AND one has to sac something to it. I last used a Gengar and a Thundurus. Greninja would not work due to its Dark type (and its common modus operandi requires often using Dark Pulse and Ice Beam (and a Water attack) from its 122 speed tier). Greninja would be horrible constrained on the battlefield not to use those moves since Lucario can "set-up" on Greninja by simply revenging it and switching out. (I actually found Scald nifty for burning a physical Luc as it sets up._
Even Talonflame with Rocks is unreliable due to ExtremeSpeed.
There is no such thing as a "niche" Lucario whose advantage derives from using an unorthodox moveset to maintain the element of surprise.
Genesect is not strategic. It is a tactical Pokemon.
No offense, but I thought people would put two and two together when I said lack luster defenses. Maybe it's just me, but when I say that, I mean not only it's stats but it's typing as well. I even alluded to that when I said Genesect's typing is much better. Just didn't want to go on and on.
Gyarados walls easily, here is calcs:
-1 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 115-136 (34.6 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252 Atk Mega Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 77-91 (23.1 - 27.4%) -- 64.9% chance to 4HKO
-1 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 39-46 (11.7 - 13.8%) -- possible 8HKO
0- SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 69-82 (20.7 - 24.6%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
Tentacruel walls as well:
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Tentacruel: 136-160 (37.3 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Mega Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Tentacruel: 90-107 (24.7 - 29.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Tentacruel: 45-54 (12.3 - 14.8%) -- doesn't even dent Tentacruel
0- SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 60-71 (16.4 - 19.5%) -- possible 7HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Aegislash walls with no question:
Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. Aegislash-Shield: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- lol
Mega Lucario Extreme Speed vs. Aegislash-Shield: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- double lol
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 34-40 (10.4 - 12.3%) -- possible 11HKO after Leftovers recovery?
0- SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 49-58 (15.1 - 17.9%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
Other checks; already confirmed with calcs just don't want to make a huge wall post: Azumarill, Trevenant, Celebi, Chandelure, Jellicent, Slowbro, Cofagrigus, Victini, Zapdos, Cresselia, Dusclops/Dusknoir, Golbat, etc.
And that's only checks. Nevermind the hundreds of pokemon that can revenge kill Mega-Lucario. I'm sorry guys but I fail to see how he is OP at all. People just need to learn how to build well rounded teams.
As Paul would say... "pathetic"...
But you forgot Dark Pulse. It is reasonable for some teams to use a Special/Mixed Lucario with a Aura Sphere,Close Combat, Flash Cannon, and Dark Pulse. Priority is no necessary on it.
Azumarill could only hit with priority and it loses to Flash Cannon, and Lucario would not be KOed by a Choice Band Aqua Jet.
+2 252- SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 396-468 (98 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
I personally find Trevenant and Gliscor annoying, but at least I know how it would bug me. I do not know how Mega Lucario would attempt to murder me.
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Uh Mega Lucario runs things other than STAB moves y'know. Also some of your calcs fail to take into account SR or even a boost:
-1 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 115-136 (34.6 - 40.9%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 258-304 (77.7 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Tentacruel: 270-318 (74.1 - 87.3%)
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 171-202 (42.3 - 50%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Also most of the other stuff you mentioned dies to Dark/Ghost coverage moves which Lucario nearly always runs. I don't think you quite grasp how powerful Mega Lucario really is, or even what constitutes walling something. :/
Provide some concrete examples that illustrate that anything at "+2 and stealth rocks can fucking OHKO everything". A +2 Dragonite can 2HKO Skarmory, but it requires 2 turns to DDance or your opponent to hit it with a weak attack (but they would be wary of Weakness Policy) and make sure Multiscale is broken (prudent hazard control) if they want to do it safely. (They can attack Dragonite, hoping it doesn't have Weakness Policy, but that is a calculated risk assumed by the opponent if Multiscale is intact).
+2 0 SpA Blissey Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 174-206 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
point sustained
it's more so that having lucario at +2 is very likely to happen and nothing can deal with a +2 lucario
mega lucario feels like it has an auto-win button
point sustained
it's more so that having lucario at +2 is very likely to happen and nothing can deal with a +2 lucario
mega lucario feels like it has an auto-win button
But its so easy to get up a SD/NP, not including them doesn't tell the whole story. Rocks id debatable in the current meta, they aren't as omnipresent but still common enough to include em. and no, things with +2 cannot always OHKO. especially a Blissey. what Blissey have you been using, some sort of Power Trick Variant? (Power Trick Blisse...that would be scary.)
The reason why it's always included because the most common battle situation when facing m lucario is it having switched in on something it can easily kill and boosting on the switch.
Turn 1: Lucario is sent out against something it threatens, or something that can't do anything to it.
Turn 2: You switch out, Lucario gets a free turn to boost.
Even if they didn't boost, and instead attacked, you get the same damage dealt to you (sans lefties) since a +2 attack is the same as two +0 attacks.
To put this in one line, 90% of the stuff you mentioned gets beat by Special Mega Luke with Dark/Ghost coverage which it almost always runs. Part of what makes Mega Luke so good is its versatility. Guess its set wrong and bad things will happen.
U running Adamant Nature LOL. It's a clean OHKO with Timid or Modest. Just shows how Azu is not a particularly solid Luke check.
Hi, I am new to this forums but anyways the over used pokemon in battle is Genesect. Mega Lucario I don't see him that much and Deoxys-S is more of a suicide plant hazard pokemon. But Genesect is the problem than those two. That Genesect has the least weakness then those two, shift gear(pretty dangerous depends on your team), DOWNLOAD that really screws you up when that pokemon got your weakness , and high BST pokemon that has a move pool that can be intimidating to fight against( like blaze kick jeesh that'll be good for shift gear and giga drain that'll scare rotoms-w). these are my reason. No need for mean replys. You can tell me why Deoxys-S and mega Lucario should be banned because. He kinda suck in uber but pretty op in ou. That is all.
Lol, I forgot to change the nature in the damage calc and you proved my point for me.
Anyway, voting for ban on both Mega Lucario and Genesect, while Doexys-S is fine in OU. Mega Lucario is obviously just too powerful for OU, so i don't really need to explain anything. Genesect may not be such an obvious case, but the fact that it can force out such a huge proportion of the metagame to start the Volt-turn cycle makes for a very ugly metagame, while also putting a huge strain in teambuilding. You know that something is wrong when you can use EB Genesect and force out anything faster than you simply with the threat of the Scarf set, and when the time is right, reveal the surprise and get a kill, opening the way to one of your sweepers. You can basically have Scarf + lure in one set, as in the early game the opponent will never want to risk their naturally faster Pokemon to stay in just to see if you have Expert Belt, the risk is just too high. Just don't be stupid and reveal your actual scarfer before you lure and kill Genesect's target, if you have one, as the opponent will immediately realize that Genesect is not running a Scarf too. As for Deo-S, i have already explained why it is not broken. The hazard set is very manageable and not broken in any sense, while the all out attacking set only really troubles HO teams, which have ways to get around it, so they can adapt just fine. It is just a great revenge killer and an ok cleaner, and there is nothing broken about it.
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[placeholder post as i might be away during the voting period]
more or less echoing alexwolf's sentiments. I used more or less the same teams (a rain spam and a deo-d ho) to get reqs on both ladders. The suspect ladder was a lot more fun to play on mainly due to genesect and mega luc's absence. stuff like rain spam was a lot more viable as gene was not present for the op to mindlessly gain momentum through (possibly) scarfed u-turn abuse; i feel the meta will be much healthier and more diverse in their absence. oh and band gene spamming espeed at +2 is a dick move and broken af.
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Shall this be applied to Rotom-W and Heatran as well, playing multiple roles and solving many teambuilding issues is not a reason for a ban.
Also, I was comparing Megachomp and Kyu-B with EBelt Genesect(or more realistically life orb Genesect because EBelt is gimmick at best), so don't make it wrong, it does sacrifices speed
Plus, I thought I have shown way ago that Genesect do not Wall Break, not with a scarf set at least.
Also, if the player predicts well is another unfair statement, the burden of prediction lies on both side
On the other hand, Genesect differs from Tornadus-T in the sense that it does not have a spammable STAB with 120 BP, the damage level of the two is simply unmatched.
252 SpA Genesect Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 72-85 (10 - 11.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+1 252 SpA Genesect Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 107-127 (14.9 - 17.7%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 161-191 (22.5 - 26.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery\
And keep in mind that is a post-nerfed Hurricane.
I think I have said before Genesect generally has a difficult time switching in?
Also, the user of Genesect does not necessarily predicts better than their opponent, if prediction is by any mean accepted as a kind of skill, being out-predicted should deserve a lost I guess?
Anyway, most of the theorycrafting job is done so hopefully no more text wall analysis is needed.
If one say they simply dislike the play style of Genesect than I would more or less agree with him, but I hate how people allege something overpowered and ban worthy when it is simply a matter of fact that it is out of their comfort zone.
First of all, the fact that you do not see Lucario that much is not a remotely valid point against banning him - he could be used on less than 1% of teams and if he was broken, he would still be bannable.
Second, Deoxys-S is NOT just a suicide hazard lead; its best set is actually the offensive set, so please take that into account when discussing it.
Now Genesect. Let's see -
- its amount of weaknesses compared to the other two is practically irrelevant as they are all offensive pokemon (although I'll admit that Genesect, unlike the other two, can occasionally switch into something).
- Shift gear is threatening against some teams, just like any sweeper.
- High BST is not a valid reason to ban something unless you show why specific stats make it broken. In fact, Genesect has exactly the same BST as Deoxys-S and 25 LESS than Mega-Lucario.
- Genesect's offensive options have already been discussed and MAY make it broken, but as they are sub-par in all situations without the specific threat he is taking down with giga drain or HP Ground, for example, I think these sets should be treated as relatively niche lures, not main roles.
Also, the fact that EBelt Genesect can fake a scarf set is due to the metagame's perception of him (Genesect = scarf), not due to any broken quality of Genesect itself.
The fact that EB can take advantage of Scarf's qualities so well without even having the item is definitely a sign of its brokeness. No other Pokemon gets to do this because no other non-broken Pokemon threatens such a big portion of the metagame with a single set, while also having its main STAB move to be U-turn.
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He can fake a scarf set because you have to respect the scarf set. If you guess wrong there, you lose your mon. And the fact that there can be multiple ways to guess wrong doesn't help.
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