XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)

[Srn]

Concerning Deo-S, we've already talked about hazards and LO offensive, but what about both? Would a set with both SR/Spikes and offensive moves be viable at all?

The thing is, when you're going for LO deo-s, his sp. att is pretty sub-par. His main attacking move forces you to switch, so what you want to do is get the best super effective coverage possible. Your coverage will be less impressive when you do something like SR+3 attacks, and just getting up SR isn't really worth hogging up an important coverage slot for deo-s.

I don't see how Genesect with sets other than scarf, despite less so for the band one, are not inferior options though. Requiring the element of surprise to function is not something to be called broken by any mean. It is not an appreciating manner to boldly assume others being noobs.

Gensect with scarf is probably ban worthy depending on how much the meta decides to embrace voltturn, but if we take away the scarf......, well it is simply nowhere close to uber.

Ok, it doesn't matter whether you're a noob or not, unless you see conclusive proof (genesect outspeeds max speed jolly garchomp) there is no way anybody can tell whether you're scarfed or expert belt.
Sure, the element of surprise certainly isn't broken, but its extremely effective in the hands of a skilled player, and these tactics can work against other skilled players as well!

As long as you switch out when needed to not give away you're scarfed and switch moves at the right time, expert belt won't dissapoint you.

 

[Photofluid]

The thing is, when you're going for LO deo-s, his sp. att is pretty sub-par. His main attacking move forces you to switch, so what you want to do is get the best super effective coverage possible. Your coverage will be less impressive when you do something like SR+3 attacks, and just getting up SR isn't really worth hogging up an important coverage slot for deo-s.



Ok, it doesn't matter whether you're a noob or not, unless you see conclusive proof (genesect outspeeds max speed jolly garchomp) there is no way anybody can tell whether you're scarfed or expert belt.
Sure, the element of surprise certainly isn't broken, but its extremely effective in the hands of a skilled player, and these tactics can work against other skilled players as well!

As long as you switch out when needed to not give away you're scarfed and switch moves at the right time, expert belt won't dissapoint you.

Expert belt stills removes your ability to revenge kill though, that alone takes away 50% of your switch in.

And btw, we are talking about ban-worthiness, not effectiveness. Save those arguments for the viability thread, note that Genesect has already tops the list though.

Expert Belt Genesect can wallbreak and destroy a lot of common defensive cores that Choice Scarf variants cannot. Shift Gear and Rock Polish sets have the potential to sweep. Choice Band has an insanely powerful U-turn and can revenge kill with Extreme Speed.

If you don't think its other sets are viable, than you deserve to be called a noob because you clearly lack the metagame knowledge to see why they are as effective as they are. Scarf Genesect is the set that I fear the least when I see it in Team Preview because until the end of the game, all it does is spam U-turn or revenge kill shit, things that other Pokemon are perfectly capable of doing quite easily. The real fear is "should I even switch out here because if I don't and it sets up, I lose, but if I stay in on an Expert Belt +1 Energy Ball, I'm going to lose my Rotom-W, or if it's Band, that U-turn is actually going to hurt" and shit like that.

Certainly I have spoken something like those sets are not viable.

Btw, Ebelt set is cold wall by MegaTran, the most common defensive core I would say, though admitably very few things manage to get pass

Oh, concerning the boost set, it is like that thing sweeps better when compared to, well, Dragonite, etc. etc.

 

[Wargreymon]

Mega Lucario needs go to. It's as simple as that. If M-Luke could only go Physical or only go Special, I'd vote for it to go OU, however the fact that it hits from both sides of the spectrum is ridiculous. I'm not comfortable letting something that 2HKOs half the meta stay OU, even though I love its design. Other pokemon, such as Garchomp, Dragonite and Scizor are powerful, but all have discernable counters. Mega Lucario doesn't have the same difficulty as them coming in and nuking everything. Steel/Fighting typing protects it from all common forms of priority, requiring you to not only outspeed, but be able to survive a +2 Extremespeed/Vacuum Wave/Bullet Punch.

My thoughts on Genesect largely remain the same: it's not completely broken, but the pressure it puts on teams is too much, and it's too easy to grab continuous momentum with little difficulty. I lean more towards Uber for him.

Deoxys-S invalidates Scarf pokemon, has no difficulty getting up hazards, has decent bulk, a great movepool, and when combo'd with Bisharp makes a deadly HO team capable of taking out a large slice of an opponent's team. I would rather this get its own suspect test, because I feel like when people are only seeing the extremes of this suspect test and people are really underestimating Deoxys. "Deoxys is broken, but it's not Mega Lucario broken!" I just don't like the way the suspects were handled this time. I feel like we could have a better discussion on a certain pokemon if we did them one at a time, but I see why it was done.

Plenty of other pokemon have no difficulty setting up hazards either, and deoxys-S' great movepool isn't all that effective against bulkier pokemon even with a LO attached. People keep mentioning it's versatility and seem to be forgetting that you can only have 4 moves. You can either use the hazards set or the LO and neither of those sets are uber worthy on their own. It's not as unpredictable as people are making it out to be either, the hazard set is very predictable thanks to the preview, you see a deoxys-S and you happen to notice that no-one else on the team can use SR or spikes. It's the best at setting up hazards no doubt, but as we all know hazards have been nerfed this generation thanks to defog and old threats to hazards are back like excadrill. The only other option is the LO set and while it is strong, fast and versatile thanks to its attacking moves it is by no means over-centralizing or broken. Most (if not all) bulky pokemon have no trouble against it especially when two of its main coverage moves drop its stats significantly. I have read through pro-ban arguments and tested this thing myself (both using it and facing it) and I still maintain my opinion that it is a strong OU threat but not uber worthy.

 

[Subject 18]

Why is revenge killing the only that matters to you?

Expert belt stills removes your ability to revenge kill though, that alone takes away 50% of your switch in.

This is entirely false. You can play Expert Belt Genesect the same way you would with the scarf set. Send it in force a switch and U-Turn. In contrast with the scarf set you lure in things that are checks/counters and either beat them or heavily weaken them with the appropriate move.

Certainly I have spoken something like those sets are not viable.

So sets such as Life Orb, Expert Belt, Focus Sash and Choice Band are unviable? Then please explain to me why in all the SPL OU games that have been played, Choice scarf is the least used set. There's obviously something you know that SPL players and I don't know.

Btw, Ebelt set is cold wall by MegaTran, the most common defensive core I would say

And the scarf set isnt?

 

[Albacore]

And the scarf set isnt?

To be fair, he acknowledged that the scarf set is not a wallbreaker, but refuted that the expert belt set is. Which it isn't. It has the same purpose as the scarf set, but lures the opponent into a false sense of security when you use a non-U-Turn move. My biggest problem when using Genesect is that I never get to use its special attack, which is a shame since I invested heavily in it. But the expert belt set enables you to do that a lot more freely, and then U-Turn out if you want (although probably not, since the opponent will probably catch on and send in something faster.)

 

[Photofluid]

Why is revenge killing the only that matters to you?

I emphasis revenge kill because that is pretty much what Genesect is known for, it is not the only thing that matter, but it is definitely something that does.

This is entirely false. You can play Expert Belt Genesect the same way you would with the scarf set. Send it in force a switch and U-Turn. In contrast with the scarf set you lure in things that are checks/counters and either beat them or heavily weaken them with the appropriate move.

Well, 50% is probably a bit exaggerating, but if you want to keep the surprise until a meaning moment, you may not want to take that risk.

So sets such as Life Orb, Expert Belt, Focus Sash and Choice Band are unviable? Then please explain to me why in all the SPL OU games that have been played, Choice scarf is the least used set. There's obviously something you know that SPL players and I don't know.

My apologize if the usage of rhetorical devices hinders your understanding

And the scarf set isnt?

Not repeating.

 

[Albacore]

I emphasis revenge kill because that is pretty much what Genesect is known for.

Not really. Genesect is known for creating momentum while whittling down teams little by little, leaving something like Talonflame or Aegislash (or, indeed, Mega-Lucario or Deoxys-S) to clean up later. This is why it's so tricky to discuss whether he's broken or not. He fills a very unique role at which he is undoubtedly the best, and for which we have no other standards for banning.
In fact, I consider him to be quite similar to Rotom-W in that regard.

 

[Jukain]

The other issue with Genesect is that it limits creative teambuilding. Has anyone teambuilding for suspect (you know, not doing crap like replacing Genesect with Scizor and Deoxys-S with Deoxys-D, and that being a 'new team') noticed that it's a lot different? Because I sure have. Even making something as simple as a Deoxys-D HO is harder because Genesect is basically the 'easy patch up everything' Pokemon. It just fills so many holes on offensive teams, that there's little reason NOT to run it. When you don't have Genesect to work with, you have to rely on multiple Pokemon to cover these roles, which encourages diversity and makes for an overall better metagame experience imo. I am not comparing the two metagames (main and suspect) on this level; it is simply a product of having a metagame sans Genesect. Genesect is probably the 'best' Pokemon in OU -- we shouldn't ban it because it's the best, but moreover because it possesses broken traits that make it the best. I've written a lot on it before, and Treecko just made some posts about it, so I won't rehash those. In summary, removing Genesect from the metagame encourages diversity.

 

[danilo]

No it doesn't. Not going to read through a thousand posts but Genesect is fine. Who cares if it fills a thousand and one roles? The only think u guys should be wondering about Genesect is if its too damn strong, which it isn't. This gen gave Gene plenty of new checks. All of them are viable. If you think Genesect is too strong that's fine, but it definitely doesn't limit diversity in a very significant way.

 

[Wargreymon]

The other issue with Genesect is that it limits creative teambuilding. Has anyone teambuilding for suspect (you know, not doing crap like replacing Genesect with Scizor and Deoxys-S with Deoxys-D, and that being a 'new team') noticed that it's a lot different? Because I sure have. Even making something as simple as a Deoxys-D HO is harder because Genesect is basically the 'easy patch up everything' Pokemon. It just fills so many holes on offensive teams, that there's little reason NOT to run it. When you don't have Genesect to work with, you have to rely on multiple Pokemon to cover these roles, which encourages diversity and makes for an overall better metagame experience imo. I am not comparing the two metagames (main and suspect) on this level; it is simply a product of having a metagame sans Genesect. Genesect is probably the 'best' Pokemon in OU -- we shouldn't ban it because it's the best, but moreover because it possesses broken traits that make it the best. I've written a lot on it before, and Treecko just made some posts about it, so I won't rehash those. In summary, removing Genesect from the metagame encourages diversity.

I really like what you said there. "We shouldn't ban it because it's the best". A lot of people need to learn that. Too many people quickly jump to a very strong pokemon and call for some kind of ban simply because it's a great pokemon.

No it doesn't. Not going to read through a thousand posts but Genesect is fine. Who cares if it fills a thousand and one roles? The only think u guys should be wondering about Genesect is if its too damn strong, which it isn't. This gen gave Gene plenty of new checks. All of them are viable. If you think Genesect is too strong that's fine, but it definitely doesn't limit diversity in a very significant way.

lol

 

[Chiki]

2 gens ago, Smogon banned Garchomp due to its Yache + SD set which had no counters except bulky Cresselia. This was understandable since it's not right to expect every team to carry bulky Cresselia to deal with Garchomp; banning Garchomp was probably justified.

Fast forward to 2014. Almost everyone on Smogon thinks Mega Lucario should be banned. Why did I bring up Garchomp earlier? Well, Garchomp only had one solid counter. Lucario has many depending on which set it runs. I'll only be considering sets commonly used (so SD IP, Crunch, and NP) since they're the ones worth considering, since we decide what is uber and what is not based on usage, even though it's possible that Lucario has a better set. Garchomp was only considered uber material after its Yache set was discovered. Let's consider them one by one.

Checks to most sets:

Talonflame (he can take a hit from ES)
Genesect
Greninja
Conkeldurr
Breloom
Starmie (can take a hit from ES)
Excadrill (in sand)
A bunch of Scarf users, ranging from Garchomp, Rotom-W, Heatran, and so on.

Cripplers:

Azumarill
Sableye
Klefki
Thundurus
Salamence
Manectric
Landorus-T

SD Lucario w/ Ice Punch:

Aegislash
Mega Venusaur (Sleep Powder)
Gyarados
Jellicent
Zapdos
Moltres
Volcarona

SD Lucario w/ Crunch:

Aegislash (with good play)
Gliscor
Mega Venusaur (Sleep Powder)
Gyarados
Landorus-T
Zapdos
Moltres
Volcarona

NP Lucario w/ Dark Pulse, Flash Cannon, Aura Sphere:

Gyarados
Mega Venusaur
Zapdos
Moltres
Volcarona
This set has few real counters, but it has more checks than usual due to having no priority moves. For example, Alakazam.

NP Lucario w/ Vacuum Wave over Dark Pulse:

Aegislash
Gyarados
Mega Venusaur
Zapdos
Moltres
Volcarona
This set has some advantages; it can't be checked by Genesect and Scarf Heatran, for example.

I'm probably missing some counters here. I'm sure you guys can add more.

Is Mega Lucario in this gen really that much different from LO Lucario back in Gen 4? Has Smogon become too banhappy? Honestly, it seems to me that people just want to ban everything that gives them the slightest bit of trouble nowadays. Banning Blaziken, Mega Gengar and Mega Kangaskhan were good ideas, but is Mega Lucario going too far?

 

[TheTraininator]

No it doesn't. Not going to read through a thousand posts but Genesect is fine. Who cares if it fills a thousand and one roles? The only think u guys should be wondering about Genesect is if its too damn strong, which it isn't. This gen gave Gene plenty of new checks. All of them are viable. If you think Genesect is too strong that's fine, but it definitely doesn't limit diversity in a very significant way.

Brute force isn't the only thing that makes a Pokemon banworthy, otherwise Kyurem-B wouldn't be BL and Deoxys-S wouldn't be on the suspect list right now. A Pokemon is considered banworthy if it provides the user an inherent advantage by its presence that can't be easily and reliably dealt with, and Genesect fits that category to a tee. Genesect isn't the heaviest hitter around nor the fastest, but what truly pushes it over the edge is its sheer versatility makes it almost unstoppable. The fact that it can fill "a thousand and one roles" is even scarier when you consider that every single one of them is perfectly capable of dismantling an entire unprepared team, forcing you to play extremely cautiously around it until you have a plan to figure out how to stop it, and that's why it limits teambuilding. You have to make sure you have a way to handle every single one of Genesect's sets, because if you don't the set you can't handle will tear up your shit. It has a large variety of situational checks, but it only has one counter, that being Heatran, and even that doesn't appreciate +1 HP Ground. Heatran has no reliable recovery either, so it can be whittled down over time until it dies, and if you aren't amply prepared for Genesect at that point, you better be on your toes.

 

[danilo]

The fact that it can fill "a thousand and one roles" is even scarier when you consider that every single one of them is perfectly capable of dismantling an entire unprepared team, forcing you to play extremely cautiously around it until you have a plan to figure out how to stop it, and that's why it limits teambuilding.

Then build a prepared team? Aegi, Conkel, Talon, Zard-x, Zard-y and Tran are all mons off the top of my head that check Genesect well in the early game. Are they perfect? No. Can they lose to specific Gene sets? Yes. But who cares? Play well in the early-game and figure out what the Genesect is doing. Once you do that Genesect is very easy to beat.

I know you or some other dude is going to be like "well if playing well is an answer to Genesect then nothing would be uber". The difference is that Genesect isn't overpowering any prepared team, unless one player plays exceptionally well or poorly. It lacks coverage to just run through teams, its spammable move isn't wrecking teams like BW Torn-T, when it sets up it isn't crushing teams like Lando-I in BW, it's not severely limiting offense like Thundy in BW1. Genesect isn't doing any of these things.

 

[Ropeburn]

Plenty of other pokemon have no difficulty setting up hazards either

Name one pokemon that has the mix of speed, bulk and support moves that Deoxys has. If Deoxys is out, it's GUARANTEED at least 2 layers unless you're running CB Tar.

deoxys-S' great movepool isn't all that effective against bulkier pokemon even with a LO attached

It's a revenge killer, not a wallbreaker.

People keep mentioning it's versatility and seem to be forgetting that you can only have 4 moves.

Ice Beam, Superpower, Psycho Boost, Fire Punch is all you really need for the offensive attacker
Taunt, Stealth Rock, Spikes, [filler] for the hazard layer.

the hazard set is very predictable thanks to the preview, you see a deoxys-S and you happen to notice that no-one else on the team can use SR or spikes. It's the best at setting up hazards no doubt, but as we all know hazards have been nerfed this generation thanks to defog and old threats to hazards are back like excadrill.

Deoxys-S + Bisharp + [Ghost Type]
Scenario 1:
1) Deoxys sets up hazards
2) Later in the match, you bring out your defog user.
3) Your opponent switches out to Bisharp, Defiant activates, and gets a free SD and is going to knock out something or will use you as set up fodder. NOTHING wants to take a +2 knock off.

Scenario 2:
1) Deoxys sets up hazards
2) You bring in your rapid spinner.
3) Opponent brings out their ghost type and spinblocks, likely forcing you out, and racking up extra hazard damage.

Just because there are threats to hazards doesn't mean they're not a huge threat still.

 

[Conflict]

plz dont ban anythang

no shit bonkers af everything can be dealt with

gene ez just gotta predict a bit til ya figure the set out but dat ez since xy shifted to bulky mons
deo-s not evne broken due to defog and strong shit 2hkoing that guy (hy aegislash)
megaluca is checked by quite a few good offensive mons and stall can deal with it just fine imo
teambuilding isnt hindered by them any more than it is by other stuff either (so much strong mons around :O)

my superior and rly grand as well as vast xy experience tells me that we should wait longer and let ppl find moar counters

dis is srs post with good value but my long posts are always ignored so fk it. and xy is fun - let it be. :)

 

[TheTraininator]

Then build a prepared team? Aegi, Conkel, Talon, Zard-x, Zard-y and Tran are all mons off the top of my head that check Genesect well in the early game.

But you can't just throw one of these on your team and expect to handle Genesect, you have to carry multiple of them to be truly prepared for it, therefore limiting teambuilding.

Are they perfect? No. Can they lose to specific Gene sets? Yes. But who cares?

You will, after your Char-Y dies when Genesect gets off a Rock Polish and outspeeds.

Play well in the early-game and figure out what the Genesect is doing. Once you do that Genesect is very easy to beat.

You can't just "play well" around Genesect, because it often takes time to figure out what Genesect plans to do, time in which either the opponent can defeat Genesect's counters or Genesect can defeat its teammates counters.

I know you or some other dude is going to be like "well if playing well is an answer to Genesect then nothing would be uber".

That you're right about, despite it being irrelevant to how broken Genesect is.

The difference is that Genesect isn't overpowering any prepared team, unless one player plays exceptionally well or poorly.

And what is a "prepared team?" You can't just throw on one of his checks and expect to beat him, you have to run multiple different checks to be able to fully beat him, which is a huge teambuilding limiter.

It lacks coverage to just run through teams,

I'm sorry, what?

its spammable move isn't wrecking teams like BW Torn-T,

I don't know about you, but I don't think there are many Pokemon who enjoy having to take +2 STAB U-Turns off base 120 Attack

when it sets up it isn't crushing teams like Lando-I in BW,

I beg to differ, Genesect can crush souls after setting up.

it's not severely limiting offense like Thundy in BW1.


Again, having to run several checks to a single Pokemo on the same team is incredibly limiting.

 

[Wargreymon]

Name one pokemon that has the mix of speed, bulk and support moves that Deoxys has. If Deoxys is out, it's GUARANTEED at least 2 layers unless you're running CB Tar.



It's a revenge killer, not a wallbreaker.



Ice Beam, Superpower, Psycho Boost, Fire Punch is all you really need for the offensive attacker
Taunt, Stealth Rock, Spikes, [filler] for the hazard layer.



Deoxys-S + Bisharp + [Ghost Type]
Scenario 1:
1) Deoxys sets up hazards
2) Later in the match, you bring out your defog user.
3) Your opponent switches out to Bisharp, Defiant activates, and gets a free SD and is going to knock out something or will use you as set up fodder. NOTHING wants to take a +2 knock off.

Scenario 2:
1) Deoxys sets up hazards
2) You bring in your rapid spinner.
3) Opponent brings out their ghost type and spinblocks, likely forcing you out, and racking up extra hazard damage.

Just because there are threats to hazards doesn't mean they're not a huge threat still.

I'm hardly denying that it's a not a great strategy, but that's all it is, a great strategy. Deo-sharp is not broken and deoxys-S on its own certainly isn't either.What about in scenario 1, when you bring in your defog user, you 100% know they're going in bisharp so you don't use defog and instead hit it for serious damage? Then bisharp knows it can't stay in unless it wants to be knocked out, so it either stays in and gets knocked out or it switches and on that turn you defog? There's plenty of ways around it, it just comes down to prediction. Plenty of pokemon combos become deadly if you predict wrong. Scenario 2 is not deoxys exclusive, spinblocking to rack up hazard damage happens with tons of other pokemon. Again let me emphasise that I'm not disagreeing that these are great strategies, but that's all they are.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

No it doesn't. Not going to read through a thousand posts but Genesect is fine. Who cares if it fills a thousand and one roles? The only think u guys should be wondering about Genesect is if its too damn strong, which it isn't. This gen gave Gene plenty of new checks. All of them are viable. If you think Genesect is too strong that's fine, but it definitely doesn't limit diversity in a very significant way.

And about it not limiting team building, Scarf Genesect alone does more to hinder hyper offense than anything I can think of, while making the old stall actually look viable still. It isn't afraid of offensive or defensive pokemon, and can only really be worn down via hazards or priority or other unrealistic damage strategies until its weak enough to pin down and KO. In that time, it could have KO'd pretty much any pokemon on your team it chooses, stopped sweeps, broken walls, and/or given clean switch ins to prevent you from ever developing momentum.

Then build a prepared team? Aegi, Conkel, Talon, Zard-x, Zard-y and Tran are all mons off the top of my head that check Genesect well in the early game. Are they perfect? No. Can they lose to specific Gene sets? Yes. But who cares? Play well in the early-game and figure out what the Genesect is doing. Once you do that Genesect is very easy to beat.

I know you or some other dude is going to be like "well if playing well is an answer to Genesect then nothing would be uber". The difference is that Genesect isn't overpowering any prepared team, unless one player plays exceptionally well or poorly. It lacks coverage to just run through teams, its spammable move isn't wrecking teams like BW Torn-T, when it sets up it isn't crushing teams like Lando-I in BW, it's not severely limiting offense like Thundy in BW1. Genesect isn't doing any of these things.

Lol, you make it sound so easy. Unless you can guarantee which set its running, here's what you can assume will happen to your "checks"

Aegislash:
252 SpA Expert Belt Genesect Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 158-187 (48.7 - 57.7%) -- 50.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Shield Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 84-99 (29.6 - 34.9%) -- 11.8% chance to 3HKO
Congrats, your "check" lost while dealing less than 70% damage.

Conkeldurr
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Genesect: 88-105 (31 - 37.1%) -- 75.4% chance to 3HKO
4 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 46-55 (11.1 - 13.2%) -- possible 8HKO
Congrats, assuming you predicted the U-turn, you dealt 35% damage, but couldn't prevent the switch and now you've got a Talonflame or Deoxys-S or something of the like to deal with. If I were you, I probably would've gone for the knock off, but then Genesect would've gotten away to rape you another day.

Talonflame:
+1 252 SpA Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 376-444 (126.1 - 148.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Scarf outspeeds and OHKO's. Unless you know for sure its not a scarf genesect, Talonflame can't reliably check. I've even see Genesects used to revenge kill Talonflames locked into flare blitz.

Zard X:
+1 252 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 159-188 (53.3 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This one gets close, with a safe switch in and no SR, there's not much Genesect can do, but it can't switch in to force Genesect out, and if it's weakened by SR or prior damage, it can't do squat. A weakened X can even be revenge killed by scarf genesect a lot of the time, so while this one is indeed one of the better checks, its still not consistent enough.

Zard Y:
252 SpA Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 166-196 (55.7 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Similar to X, but even less realistic. Genesect will KO weakened Y's like a boss, and U-turn away from strong ones.

Heatran:
I don't even know why you mentioned him. Not even an idiot would stick around for Heatran to attack, and there's almost no way to stop the U-turn. It forces the switch, but now you've got to predict who's coming, and that's not easy.

*Note: Yes, a lot of these were worst case scenarios, but they are possible scenarios and illustrate that there's almost no reliable way to deal with Genesect. I didn't even mention shift gear sets that can ruin teams as well.

plz dont ban anythang

no shit bonkers af everything can be dealt with

gene ez just gotta predict a bit til ya figure the set out but dat ez since xy shifted to bulky mons
deo-s not evne broken due to defog and strong shit 2hkoing that guy (hy aegislash)
checked by quite a few good offensive mons and stall can deal with it just fine imo
teambuilding isnt hindered by them any more than it is by other stuff either (so much strong mons around :O)

my superior and rly grand as well as vast xy experience tells me that we should wait longer and let ppl find moar counters

dis is srs post with good value but my long posts are always ignored so fk it. and xy is fun - let it be. :)

If we let the clearly broken pokemon stay in OU, the metagame will evolve into something we don't want. An example could be how Aegislash and Lucario made the already crazy popular earthquake even more omnipresent. Lucario is too hard to counter, hits too hard, and is too hard to predict; Genesect makes hyper offense less viable, is too stinking hard to check, and annoys the crap out of me (not a reason to ban, but I'm tired of talking about it); Deoxys, you'll have to talk to somebody who cares more than I do, because I'm still making up my mind on him.

 

[Gachikaze]

Weakness policy Aegislash is easily one of the best lucario checks around. It lives a Crunch with more than 50% HP and can set up with Swords dance. You'd be at +4 and shadow sneak would be a OHKO. Bullet punch won't do anything to you at all, and the other two priority moves are immune vs Aegislash.

 

[Albacore]

Is Mega Lucario in this gen really that much different from LO Lucario back in Gen 4?

I also used to think that MLucario isn't too different from LO Lucario, but then I realised that its speed went from mediocre to amazing. Lucario's speed is what really drives it over the edge.
[/quote]
Has Smogon become too banhappy? Honestly, it seems to me that people just want to ban everything that gives them the slightest bit of trouble nowadays. Banning Blaziken, Mega Gengar and Mega Kangaskhan were good ideas, but is Mega Lucario going too far?[/quote]
Smogon are currently banning a lot of things simply because it's the beginning of the Gen VI metagame and everything was allowed for a while.

I'm probably missing some counters here. I'm sure you guys can add more.

You're using the words "check" and "counter" like they're interchangeable. They are not.
Most of the Pokemon you listed as "checks" are no longer checks when SR is up. And you do realise Lucario can switch out? Especially given how easy it is to set up. Scarfers, especially ones carrying Earthquake, are really easy to play around. I believe we've discussed Conkeldurr and Breloom, and Greninja can only take an Espeed 50% of the time. Starmie can't OHKO with any of its common moves, unless you run Hydro Pump which only OHKOs 50% of the time, when it doesn't miss.
Also, it doesn't really matter what checks a certain set. I've said it once and I'll say it again : you do not know what set your opponent is running,until it's too late and you've lost 1 or 2 of your mons. You must assume the worst, and if you do, Lucario has no counters.
And I know this is just a quick observation, and it's not very viable, but MLucario can choose to have an Adamant or Modest nature instead of a Jolly or Timid one. Which can kinda screw you over.

Sorry if I came of as a bit agressive, but I'm sick of people still discussing MLuke, especially when they disregard so many posts before.

 

[Chiki]

You'r using the words "check" and "counter" like they're interchangeable.

Um, but the entire point I listed pokemon under "check" and different pokemon under "counter" was to establish how different they are...

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

Expert belt stills removes your ability to revenge kill though, that alone takes away 50% of your switch in.

Well, it's not a revenge killer. It feigns one, but it's not one. As for the second part, the single threat of it being scarf forces so many switches it's not funny, so it retains it switch-momentum easily.

Btw, Ebelt set is cold wall by MegaTran, the most common defensive core I would say, though admitably very few things manage to get pass

Ebelt Genesect is known to carry Hp Ground from time to time for Tran. One part of the core is down, let Talon break the other.

 

[TheTraininator]

If we let the clearly broken pokemon stay in OU, the metagame will evolve into something we don't want. An example could be how Aegislash and Lucario made the already crazy popular earthquake even more omnipresent. Lucario is too hard to counter, hits too hard, and is too hard to predict; Genesect makes hyper offense less viable, is too stinking hard to check, and annoys the crap out of me (not a reason to ban, but I'm tired of talking about it); Deoxys, you'll have to talk to somebody who cares more than I do, because I'm still making up my mind on him.

You're right, but I'm pretty sure the post you're replying to with this was a joke post. XP

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

You're right, but I'm pretty sure the post you're replying to with this was a joke post. XP

Yeah, but I needed to vent. There are good anti ban arguments out there, but they're buried under trolls, noobs, and cheapscapes trying to keep their pokemon around for selfish reasons rather than the betterment of the metagame

 

[Wargreymon]

Yeah, but I needed to vent. There are good anti ban arguments out there, but they're buried under trolls, noobs, and cheapscapes trying to keep their pokemon around for selfish reasons rather than the betterment of the metagame

Amen to that!