Completely agreed. I used Gothita on a team and the only job it ever did was killing Gligar. Sure, thats great but more often than not its just dead weight or death fodder.
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Resource LC Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Corporal Levi
- Start date
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Completely agreed. I used Gothita on a team and the only job it ever did was killing Gligar. Sure, thats great but more often than not its just dead weight or death fodder.
I would like to nominate Lileep for B rank. Lileep is a great tank to use in the metagame right now, being able to take on multiple threats in the metagame such as chinchou, most gligars, tirtouga, bunnelby, and murkrow. It has access to reliable recovery in recover, and has stealth rock to help support the team. It has like base 61 spA which is definitely not bad for a pokemon as bulky as lileep. It can even get some lucky ancient powers, which after one it can be nearly impossible to take down thanks to its bulk and recover. Overall, thanks to lileep's great typing, recovery, bulk, an support options, I feel like it deserves to be B rank.
IMO Lileep has too little offensive presence, too little utility, and meh typing for B rank. Defog keeps its excellence as an SR down this generation. Knock Off has been buffed which has popularized fighting types, resulting in typically 1 Fighting type at the very least on the enemy team. Meditite being unbanned doesn't help either. It can't beat Swords Dance Gligar unless you're weird and run HP Ice and 14 SpA. It's 2HKO over 70% of the time by LO Krow. Giga Drain and Ancient Power hit almost nothing useful for super effectiveness aside from Fletchling, Murkrow, Chinchou, and Tirtouga. If you run Toxic, you have to give up Stealth Rocks, and Toxic is an underwhelming status move anyway. With no offensive or strong crippling power to threaten mons that it actually walls, it doesn't actually do much against anything, warranting C rank.
I have mixed feelings about Tyrunt, I think it's current best set is a Scarf with its naturally high attack, strong jaw, and great coverage. I think this set will become more common if Gligar and Swirlix are eventually banned.
Its typing is what really kills it, being weak to Fighting, Steel, Fairy, Ice, and Ground really off-set its usefulness as a check to pokemon like Murkrow, Munchlax, and Porygon.
Despite this I still think Tyrunt is good enough to be ranked. C-D is definitively the best spot for it, in my opinion, as its able to outspeed a lot of common pokemon (with a scarf) and grab a KO with its great coverage, especially late-game. For now I think it should be ranked, albeit a bit low.
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Woah Gothita shouldn't be D rank.
It's movepool helps it get rid of walls like Slowpoke / Foongus / Gligar / Some fightings etc etc. You can easily pair it with a u-turner and send in Gothita to see if you can cripple the incomming walls. Also you don't have to run a Choiced set. I ran Taunt with two sp atks just to stop walls from either recovering or using status on me.
It's movepool helps it get rid of walls like Slowpoke / Foongus / Gligar / Some fightings etc etc. You can easily pair it with a u-turner and send in Gothita to see if you can cripple the incomming walls. Also you don't have to run a Choiced set. I ran Taunt with two sp atks just to stop walls from either recovering or using status on me.
slowpoke is 3HKOed by shadow ball and can KO with scald and cripple it with TWave, it's too weak to KO foongus which can just spore it, and all fightings except like mankey and croagunk lol can take a psychic and KO with knock off
edit: I didn't see first part of the post, but yea if it's not running scarf then gligar outspeeds and KOes with acrobatics, and slowpoke 2HKOes with scald with burn or something anyway. Since fightings can take a hit, they can just knock off and KO. Gothita really isn't that good.
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taunt beats foongus and stops slowpoke crippling it with twave and using slack off so it can beat these two.
yea I didn't see the second part of the post, edited lol
also that thing learns thunderbolt?? didn't know about that
oh and gligar can u-turn out anyway
ok, went through everything, and I think I caught most of the noms.
incoming changes:
A-rank → S-rank
S-rank → A-rank
B-rank → A-rank
A-rank → B-rank
A-rank → B-rank
C-rank → B-rank
B-rank → C-rank
B-rank → C-rank
D-rank → C-rank
Added to C-rank
Added to C-rank
Added to D-rank
proposed changes that are not moving:
Remaining in A-rank
Remaining in B-rank
Remaining in B-rank
Remaining in C-rank
Remaining in C-rank
And I'd like to see some more discussion on Ponyta. It was nominated for A-rank, but I didn't see much discussion on it from anyone other than Wobbyble. I'd like to hear more from people about it.
As always, if you disagree with some of these changes, feel free to state why. It's important to respond to the arguments made about them though. People have already posed their feelings about these Pokemon, so you should be ready to respond to them specifically if you disagree. For the most part, I'm just a mediator.
incoming changes:
proposed changes that are not moving:
And I'd like to see some more discussion on Ponyta. It was nominated for A-rank, but I didn't see much discussion on it from anyone other than Wobbyble. I'd like to hear more from people about it.
As always, if you disagree with some of these changes, feel free to state why. It's important to respond to the arguments made about them though. People have already posed their feelings about these Pokemon, so you should be ready to respond to them specifically if you disagree. For the most part, I'm just a mediator.
I agree that Ponyta should be ranked A as well. Although the lack of a fighting resist hurts, its higher speed and lesser weakness to stealth rock should probably be enough for it to hold its own when compared to Larvesta. Its high base stats and access to a powerful STAB in Flare Blitz allow it to pose as an exceptionally dangerous offensive threat, and being able to use both Will-O-Wisp and Morning Sun means its survivability is better than most. Even though it can't maintain momentum the way Larvesta and its STAB U-Turn can, I think its superior sweeping potential is enough for it to be A rank.
Also, I'm not sure if this was intentional, but Cubone is labelled as both a frog mon and D rank right now.
Also, I'm not sure if this was intentional, but Cubone is labelled as both a frog mon and D rank right now.
Ponyta is really good. Not having flying and quad rock weaknesses means it doesn't require spin/defog support and can tank hits from fletchling and krow and burn them. Speed tying w/ Missy, gligar, and krow is pretty amazing too, and its speed makes gives it a better shot at sweeping compared to larvesta.
NONONONONONO. Please don't remove Pawniard from S-Rank. Seriously, Pawniard is such an amazing Pokemon in this metagame, I struggle not to use it. STAB Knock Off coming from 18 or 19 base attack is amazing. It can really cripple anything that relies on their eviolite, especially Fighting-types making it such a good support mon for every sweeper ever, particularly stuff like Tirtouga and Carvanha. Not only that, it also has really good defensive typing so an eviolite set makes it a really good check to non-EQ Tirtouga, and quite a few other random sweepers, it can take a hit from most of them, and also gets Sucker Punch to hit them with. It can also run a really strong Choice Scarf set, luring in Gligar, taking out stuff like Murkrow and Misdreavus and also beating other scarfers and sweepers. I just think it's such a good Pokemon, I'd easily put it on a par with Meditite and Murkrow.
Gothita isn't 2hko'd by scald even with burn by a slowpoke, atleast not by my spread. Gothita can break down walls which is something Wynaut can't do, sure Wynaut can encore them, but the walls will still be there. Gothita can exploit those walls using different sets. Saying Gothita is D rank is an understatement.
Everyone always states cubone is only viable if he's running thick club but I would like to share a different set you can run with cubone mainly to wall and get rid of gligar without a problem. What makes this set so effective is the surprise value behind it. Nobody would expect the OHKO ice beam from a cubone and you'd be able to switch in cubone on the gligar no problem. Most people don't even know cubone can learn ice beam so it's definitely a huge surprise considering the main set people see cubone ran with is the Thick club set.
0 SpA Cubone Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gligar: 20-28 (86.9 - 121.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
236 Atk Gligar Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Cubone: 7-9 (31.8 - 40.9%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
236 Atk Gligar Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 36 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Cubone: 7-9 (31.8 - 40.9%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Cubone Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gligar: 20-28 (86.9 - 121.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
236 Atk Gligar Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Cubone: 7-9 (31.8 - 40.9%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
236 Atk Gligar Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 36 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Cubone: 7-9 (31.8 - 40.9%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
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I agree with Corkscrew. Pawniard is very strong, above all thanks to raised Knock Off and Berry Juice use. Also Sucker Punch and Iron Head, possibily bosted by Swords Dance, done this pokemon like a bulding LC starting point.
How?
The wall will still be there and it will still have a chance to stop your sweep. Gothita gets rid of the wall that stops your sweep cold allowing nothing in your way to stop you from sweeping.
Edit: So what is the difference from walls still being able to stop you, and not being able to set up? They can still switch in later game and can cripple you/ko you. With Gothita once the walls are gone all you need is one set up opportunity and nothing can stop. Since we are using Swirlix as an example: Swirlix can set up on fighting types/dark types anything that doesn't hit hard and won't threaten it out, live one move most of the time bar super effective, restores it's hp full and proceeds to sweep with out any pokemon stopping it.
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Wynaut gives a free set up opportunity to any set up mon if encore is used correctly; getting rid of walls isn't enough if you can't set up, and gothita doesn't offers that. Also Wynaut has the perk of being a full stop to scarf pokes due to his high bulk. Worst case scenario destiny bond gets the scarfer anyways. Wynaut does has advantages over gothita.
"[15:24]<Oiawesome> 196 SpA Choice Specs Vulpix Fire Blast vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chinchou in Sun: 11-13 (42.3 - 50%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
[15:24]<Oiawesome>use HP elec for mantyke: sweep
[15:25]<Oiawesome>vulpix for S/A rank
"
Vulpix For A Rank
Now, generally, Vulpix is thought as a 'good enough B rank sun support mon' and not much else. But I'm here to change that thinking, not only is vulpix arguablly the best poke to set sunny day with due to drought, it also makes sun offense pretty much viable. That's also known but, imo, it's also one of the most amazing hard hitters in the tier:
196 SpA Choice Specs Vulpix Fire Blast vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chinchou in Sun: 11-13 (42.3 - 50%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
196 SpA Choice Specs Vulpix Hidden Power Electric vs. 196 HP / 232+ SpD Eviolite Mantyke: 12-16 (52.1 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
196 SpA Choice Specs Vulpix Fire Blast vs. 236 HP / 180 SpD Eviolite Hippopotas: 13-16 (50 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
196 SpA Choice Specs Vulpix Energy Ball vs. 236 HP / 180 SpD Eviolite Hippopotas: 14-18 (53.8 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 204+ SpA Swirlix Dazzling Gleam vs. 52 HP / 0 SpD Vulpix: 10-12 (47.6 - 57.1%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
196 SpA Choice Specs Vulpix Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 100 SpD Swirlix in Sun: 30-36 (136.3 - 163.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
196 SpA Choice Specs Vulpix Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 68 SpD Eviolite Dratini in Sun: 11-13 (55 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
196 SpA Choice Specs Vulpix Overheat vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Misdreavus in Sun: 19-24 (82.6 - 104.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
196 SpA Choice Specs Vulpix Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Frillish: 10-14 (40 - 56%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
etc.
Overall, it's impossible to switch into and supports the team very well, not only that it also has versatility between defensive and offensive sets.
Misdreavus For S Rank
Do we even need to point this out?:
"15:03dcaeis 100%
15:03dcaes rank
15:03dcaeits too good"
Dcae 2 strong :]
on a more serious note- Misdreavus is amazing in this current meta, it's great stats, speed tier and offense and typing give it huge niches and roles that make it so great, will add more later, sorry for the bluntness
[15:24]<Oiawesome>use HP elec for mantyke: sweep
[15:25]<Oiawesome>vulpix for S/A rank
Now, generally, Vulpix is thought as a 'good enough B rank sun support mon' and not much else. But I'm here to change that thinking, not only is vulpix arguablly the best poke to set sunny day with due to drought, it also makes sun offense pretty much viable. That's also known but, imo, it's also one of the most amazing hard hitters in the tier:
196 SpA Choice Specs Vulpix Fire Blast vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chinchou in Sun: 11-13 (42.3 - 50%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
196 SpA Choice Specs Vulpix Hidden Power Electric vs. 196 HP / 232+ SpD Eviolite Mantyke: 12-16 (52.1 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
196 SpA Choice Specs Vulpix Fire Blast vs. 236 HP / 180 SpD Eviolite Hippopotas: 13-16 (50 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
196 SpA Choice Specs Vulpix Energy Ball vs. 236 HP / 180 SpD Eviolite Hippopotas: 14-18 (53.8 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 204+ SpA Swirlix Dazzling Gleam vs. 52 HP / 0 SpD Vulpix: 10-12 (47.6 - 57.1%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
196 SpA Choice Specs Vulpix Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 100 SpD Swirlix in Sun: 30-36 (136.3 - 163.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
196 SpA Choice Specs Vulpix Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 68 SpD Eviolite Dratini in Sun: 11-13 (55 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
196 SpA Choice Specs Vulpix Overheat vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Misdreavus in Sun: 19-24 (82.6 - 104.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
196 SpA Choice Specs Vulpix Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Frillish: 10-14 (40 - 56%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
etc.
Overall, it's impossible to switch into and supports the team very well, not only that it also has versatility between defensive and offensive sets.
Do we even need to point this out?:
"15:03dcaeis 100%
15:03dcaes rank
15:03dcaeits too good"
Dcae 2 strong :]
on a more serious note- Misdreavus is amazing in this current meta, it's great stats, speed tier and offense and typing give it huge niches and roles that make it so great, will add more later, sorry for the bluntness
Missy should remain A rank and Vulpix should still be B rank.
Vulpix is weak to SR, slow compared to other offensive mons like Gligar/Missy/Murkrow, very fragile with offensive items, both fragile and somewhat weak with Heat Rock, and generally Sun is not a consistent play style to use.
Misdreavus is weak to Knock off which typically teams will have at least 1-2 of, sometimes even more, its rather weak without Nasty Plotting, it actually has a difficult time getting NP's up, and is reliant on speed ties. It'd be S rank if they didn't buff Knock Off for sure.
Vulpix is weak to SR, slow compared to other offensive mons like Gligar/Missy/Murkrow, very fragile with offensive items, both fragile and somewhat weak with Heat Rock, and generally Sun is not a consistent play style to use.
Misdreavus is weak to Knock off which typically teams will have at least 1-2 of, sometimes even more, its rather weak without Nasty Plotting, it actually has a difficult time getting NP's up, and is reliant on speed ties. It'd be S rank if they didn't buff Knock Off for sure.
About Wynaut: if you're talking about a Mon whose currently suspect possibly broken sure we know it doesn't needs the encore support. But pokes who use shellsmash will appreciate switching safely into encored moves like munchlax recycle, licking wish, lileeps recover, portions recover, ETC. Having the sturdy juice intact while shell smashing can lead to even multiple boosting, and to a gg. This also applies to set up Mon like missy Np+sub or pawn using SD. Tldr: yeah a brokemon won't appreciate that much that support, But i said "Set up mons" not just swilirx.
About vulpix: i haven't got the chance to test it myself but it doesn't sounds like A material. Sure it can "nuke" you with specs fire blast but that doesn't quits the fact that its rather slow and frail. B its good for it imo
Missy on the other hand, i could see it in S. Sure, the knock off boost hurt but we are talking about a Mon who can lure out any poke and screw him over with the appropriate move; will o wisp messes with knock off users and physical attackers in general, it got dazzling gem for fighting pokes, it can use the NP set very well (id why wobby says it has a hard time setting up knowing it forces a lot of switches due to his offensive presence) and it has nice defensive typing, 3 immunities are awesome. Some might say it has a 4mss but more than a problem for missy its a problem for those facing it as you cant be sure what its running, and whatever she's not running should be covered by your teammates.
I support moving it up to S but would be open for discussion
About vulpix: i haven't got the chance to test it myself but it doesn't sounds like A material. Sure it can "nuke" you with specs fire blast but that doesn't quits the fact that its rather slow and frail. B its good for it imo
Missy on the other hand, i could see it in S. Sure, the knock off boost hurt but we are talking about a Mon who can lure out any poke and screw him over with the appropriate move; will o wisp messes with knock off users and physical attackers in general, it got dazzling gem for fighting pokes, it can use the NP set very well (id why wobby says it has a hard time setting up knowing it forces a lot of switches due to his offensive presence) and it has nice defensive typing, 3 immunities are awesome. Some might say it has a 4mss but more than a problem for missy its a problem for those facing it as you cant be sure what its running, and whatever she's not running should be covered by your teammates.
I support moving it up to S but would be open for discussion
This is where I got swirlix from. I also thought it was a pretty bad example of a set up mon, too.
I don't get how you can set up multiple times, since you are either going to send out something that can KO it / or can Wall it and status it/phaze it out. I'm not trying to factor skill, just common sense. Like I said before I would rather get rid of walls and find an opportunity to set up on something that can't threaten the pokemon setting up out and proceed to sweep without having to worry about walls in the future. Wynaut is better at killing/stopping scarfers/sweepers, breaks down walls. It really shouldn't be D rank.
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