that is not how tiers work
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XY UU Beta Discussion (Read post #32)
- Thread starter Ace Emerald
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Has anyone even mention Porygon-Z yet? -_-
Well, what can PZ do? He's completely stuffed by Chansey and mostly overshadowed by Keldeo who has way better STABs, is much faster, and (before Porygon's admittedly superior Abilities kick in) is not much weaker. Is he even more powerful than Boomburst Exploud, who has Scrappy?
Soooooooooo in other words, he tiers down to RU/NU?
Nobody using Shaymin right now really make me sad :(
Its LO+ 3 attacks and rest set is still really strong and not to start a Shaymin vs Celebi argument, but Shaymin doesn't have those ghost and dark weakness's making it easier to switch in.
Its seed flare is still really good and base 100 everything is still never bad and with good prediction, you can really screw some things over.
It ended last gen UU at S rank for a reason.
Its LO+ 3 attacks and rest set is still really strong and not to start a Shaymin vs Celebi argument, but Shaymin doesn't have those ghost and dark weakness's making it easier to switch in.
Its seed flare is still really good and base 100 everything is still never bad and with good prediction, you can really screw some things over.
It ended last gen UU at S rank for a reason.
The problem is that Colbur Berry doesn't take effect if Knock Off isn't super effective. On something that isn't dark-weak, it's completely useless.
The only thing about Knock Off is that it's not exactly an "instant win" button, per se. Sure, you can have your Empoleon Knock Off someone's lefties, but now Crawdaunt can't Knock Off that same mon for increased damage. Even so, one Pokemon with Knock Off is already ridiculous enough as it is, so eh... :/
If he doesn't get the required usage to stay in UU, then yes, that's entirely possible. I don't think he'll fall as far as NU, he's far too powerful and will end up in BL2 or 3, but he's not gaining anything across the generation switches while he's having to compete with more and more Pokemon who are more relevant or threatening than him.
I don't think it's very fair to compare Porygon-Z and Keldeo; while Keldeo does have the luxury of being able to take down Chansey relatively easily, I find that I usually end up running two or three checks to him if only because Latias, Florges, Roserade, Jellicent, Vest Slowbro, Celebi, Toxicroak are decent to amazing in this metagame. Granted some are shaky checks at best and I mean I'll be the first to admit Specs Keldeo puts a ton of pressure on teams, but the metagame shifts balanced it fairly well.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Florges: 204-240 (56.6 - 66.6%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Florges: 204-240 (56.6 - 66.6%)
Porygon-Z and Exploud actually have identical damage outputs, with the main difference between them being one of bulk vs speed. I myself would always pick P-Z because Exploud's bulk, even invested, does not help it any against revenge-killers, and out of the two he is actually the one who is hard walled by Chansey. Consider this :
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 216-256 (30.6 - 36.3%)
Meanwhile P-Z has access to Trick - people are discussing Knock Off to death but that doesn't mean it's the only move Chansey has to deal with :p
Exploud's bigger claim to fame, of course, is being able to spam Boomburst without fearing Ghost-type switch-ins, but it's not like Porygon-Z is helpless against them either. The Dark-type buff was actually very kind to it as it has access to perfect coverage in just Tri Attack and Dark Pulse. A bulky Agility / Nasty Plot set (with like 176 Spd / 252 SAtk / 80 HP EVs to outspeed Scarf Mienshao after an Agility) is very viable and punishes both frail offensive teams and Bulky Offense not running Chansey. All in all I think out of the two of them, Exploud will be the one to drop if only because of his inferior speed.
(Not to mention you could just run Double-Edge)
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Knock Off is single-handedly stopping stalls usage, along with making the numerous Psychic types less viable. In return for how much banning knock Off offers, compared to how little it takes away from us, I would think it needs banning. Anyway, Smogon should focus on increasing viability and creativity, not refusing to ban a move because the leaders of UU/council are too scared to ban a move because 'it's never been done before'. We banned Moody and Sand Veil and Snow Cloak as the first generation to ever ban abilities in. Why doe not UU take the initiative and ban Knock Off for the first time banning a move ever? With the attitude the Council has now, if they were in charge last gen Drizzle+SS wouldn't happen because 'complex bans have never been done before.' If we refuse to even ban a move that hits as hard as EQ, has fewer resists and no immunity, AND removes your Item, along with stopping an entire play style, what new things like abilities/non-Mega Stone Items or broken moves in the future WILL we ban? It may nerf a few Pokemon, but the ends justify the means, and the boosts justify the nerfs.
I said 'or have higher special attack.
Knock Off is single-handedly stopping stalls usage, along with making the numerous Psychic types less viable. In return for how much banning knock Off offers, compared to how little it takes away from us, I would think it needs banning. Anyway, Smogon should focus on increasing viability and creativity, not refusing to ban a move because the leaders of UU/council are too scared to ban a move because 'it's never been done before'. We banned Moody and Sand Veil and Snow Cloak as the first generation to ever ban abilities in. Why doe not UU take the initiative and ban Knock Off for the first time banning a move ever? With the attitude the Council has now, if they were in charge last gen Drizzle+SS wouldn't happen because 'complex bans have never been done before.' If we refuse to even ban a move that hits as hard as EQ, has fewer resists and no immunity, AND removes your Item, along with stopping an entire play style, what new things like abilities/non-Mega Stone Items or broken moves in the future WILL we ban? It may nerf a few Pokemon, but the ends justify the means, and the boosts justify the nerfs.
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He was asking why PZ wasn't being talked about, so I think it's fair to say "Oh, the best special attacker in the tier is getting the slot Porygon might otherwise get."
nNormal and Dark, in UU, are resisted by: Cobalion, Terrakion, Carbink, and lol Pawniard.
Normal and Ghost, on the other hand (it gets Shadow Ball) have completely unresisted coverage. Unless, of course, you run Pawniard.
Pawniard could be really good... How about a Band set, lol?
Seriously, why has no one responded to my most recent Knock Off argument?
Seriously, why has no one responded to my most recent Knock Off argument?
Okay:
- Psychic types can still be good. Latias is one of the very best Pokemon in the metagame, in my opinion.
- The UU council aren't scared to ban a move. The fact that they even had a vote on Knock Off in the first place shows they're open to banning moves.
- Double Team, Horn Drill, Fissure, Guillotine are banned, so it's been done before (although for different reasons).
- Moody, Sand Veil and Snow Cloak are all evasion related.
- Knock Off isn't like evasion or OHKO moves since the effects are consistent. It may be powerful, but at least you know exactly what will happen to each team member if you switch them into Knock Off, so you look at all your options and decide your best move accordingly.
- I was here when there was the whole rain situation, and the Drizzle + Swift Swim ban, and it actually did get a lot of opposition. It's not true that bans were taken less seriously back then. With Drizzle + Swift Swim ban, it was done as a compromise, and they made it clear at the time that it wasn't going to set a precedent for complex bans to become the norm.
Personally, I think if Knock Off is a big problem for people, we should start by removing Crawdaunt from the metagame. He's the biggest offender, since he can spam the move almost freely. But I just don't see what's so problematic about Knock Off Shuckle or Gligar, you can punish them easily if they use Knock Off too leniently.
Remove Crawdaunt? LOL? Sure its knock off hits hard but it is slow as dirt and not bulky at all and any grass type (Except Celebi) has no problems with it and its very easily revenge killed even with away jet. Everything else I agree with.
Remember that we should never really want to be banning something and that it is a last resort when it is really tier centralising in such a way that no one wants to be switching in on whatever or is just so very hard to get around, which I would have to say that Knock Off isn't, and based on only 3/12 of the council only wanting to ban it, it isn't seen as too much of a problem.
And can I just say that Doublade is like a free switch in to 99% of Chanseys hehe, one of the best abusers of Chansey: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uubeta-86108261
And can I just say that Doublade is like a free switch in to 99% of Chanseys hehe, one of the best abusers of Chansey: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uubeta-86108261
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 177-211 (43.8 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
I wouldn't call that "no problem(s) with it" (physically bulkiest grass outside of Ferrothorn, I think, who is OU), but Crawdaunt is not ban-worthy, not even close. Like Oddish said, he's dirt slow and relies HEAVILY on Aqua Jet/scaring stuff out so he can slap a switch-in with Knock Off with impunity. Even with Sticky Web support and a Jolly nature, he only outspeeds base 105s, so anything not grounded faster than 55 (a whole shitload of Pokemon) and anything Scarfed faster than 55 (100% of them) or anything faster than 105 in general (Keldeo, Jolteon) outspeeds and either KOs are really hurts him. He's damn good but only if you play him well, which is less damning than Keldeo or Chansey who require active sabotage to not be some of the best Pokemon in the tier. Knock Off doesn't break a Pokemon, even if they hit hard.
I wouldn't call that "no problem(s) with it" (physically bulkiest grass outside of Ferrothorn, I think, who is OU), but Crawdaunt is not ban-worthy, not even close. Like Oddish said, he's dirt slow and relies HEAVILY on Aqua Jet/scaring stuff out so he can slap a switch-in with Knock Off with impunity. Even with Sticky Web support and a Jolly nature, he only outspeeds base 105s, so anything not grounded faster than 55 (a whole shitload of Pokemon) and anything Scarfed faster than 55 (100% of them) or anything faster than 105 in general (Keldeo, Jolteon) outspeeds and either KOs are really hurts him. He's damn good but only if you play him well, which is less damning than Keldeo or Chansey who require active sabotage to not be some of the best Pokemon in the tier. Knock Off doesn't break a Pokemon, even if they hit hard.
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out of those, the only viable one is cobalion. terrakion is banned and honestly who is using carbink and pawniard?
EDIT: i havent seen carbink but has anybody else? i think its kind of useless as registeel can do everything better iirc
Count to think of it, keldeo, pory-z and exploud could be the main abusers of sticky web on the special side. As udescribed it they are pretty slow but dang powerful, so why not use them under sticky web? In a tier filled with strong but slow pokemons i think it's gonna be the best tier to use sticky web.
Keldeo slow? LOL? 108 speed now is slow kk.
I guess sticky web could be useful for electric types but it really doesn't require sticky web support at all because it outspeeds most of the metagame. Plus all grass types(Except Sceptile…) are slower than it and keldeo really shouldn't stay in on them anyways (Unless it has HP bug for Celebi)
Plus the thing that Keldeo wants to beat most with SW is Latias which has levitate soooo.
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Knock Off is stopping stall dead. Why is Florges used over Chansey besides Keldeo? Knock Off. Why does Cofagrigus only have 4.5% usage? Knock Off. Why is Reuniculus bad with CM? Knock Off. It is by itself stopping stall and Psychic types and Ghost types. When a vote is 9-3, it shows 75% of them are against banning a move which causes the Psychics and Ghosts to drop to the depths of RU and NU and even PU. You didn't even address some of the main points of my post. When a move, or anything, by and of itself, causes three or four entirely separate types or playstyles of UU to be entirely unviable, and inadvisable to use it is broken. It also wounds HO and BO extremely, as neither of them commonly run the two 4x resists, and they both hate losing Choice Scarf, Choice Band, Choice Specs, Life Orb, Leftovers, whatever. The mere fact you even refuse to quote the entire post proves you cannot or will not address all of its points, and if you did quote it, you would discover you cannot disprove all of it's arguments. I am sorry if this sounds rude, but I am trying to get a point across to you, and when you refuse to listen to it, I am forced to do this.
im not saying that that is an invalid argument but it just means you can use a different set or run something that can counter what bothers you
Okay, Knock Off's disruptive ability has not changed since last generation. The only thing that has changed is the power. Something like Empoleon, Gligar, or Shuckle is using Knock Off for the exact same reason that they would have last generation. The only users of Knock Off that make it any more broken than it was last generation that are common are Crawdaunt, Mienshao, Absol, Weavile, Ambipom, Tornadus-T, and Machamp. These 7 Pokemon are the only ones that use Knock Off with any kind of frequency that had over 3.41% usage in January and use it as an actual damaging move. Would you argue that any of those 7 are broken? If not, then Knock Off cannot be broken. If so, that's a discussion that should take place about the specific Pokemon, since there are relatively few offenders of the move.
Also, Knock Off by no means makes stall unviable. Stall is still an extremely viable playstyle in OU and UU. Many Psychic- and Ghost-types are still extremely viable.
Also, Knock Off by no means makes stall unviable. Stall is still an extremely viable playstyle in OU and UU. Many Psychic- and Ghost-types are still extremely viable.
They are viable; they are just worse and aren't used as much(which shows less versatility and creativity), thus causing them to be doomed to BL2/RU/BL3/NU/PU.
Really? Because the psychic types that got above 3.41% usage in Jan were : Latias (#3) Gardevoir (#4) Medicham (#9) Slowbro (#10) Metagross (#12) Mew (#24) Celebi (#27) Victini (#30)
That's 8 pokemon not including Deo-S and Deo-D and pokemon that didn't get above that usage that are still viable like Reuniclus
4 of the top 10 pokemon used in UU are psychic type lol!
For ghosts it's: Chandelure (#8) Jellicent (#41) Cofagrigus (#42)
3 ghosts but they're less ghost type pokemon anyways so your argument over psy's and ghosts being doomed to the BL tiers is not true. As no psychics and ghosts besides maybe Reuniclus would be broken in a lower tier.
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