Pokémon Latios

[Aragorn the King]

M Latias is certainly getting banned. Again, its bulk is surpassed only by Lugia and Giratina, the two best walls in Ubers + it's faster than Giratina and hits much harder than both of them. It's too good for OU.

Its bulk is also surpassed by Cresselia.
Anyway, I tend to agree with you. In a metagame with Genesect and Mega-Luke I think it would be bearable, but now I think it could be too much. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Red Cat]

After doing some calcs on Mega Latias, I'm not so impressed with it anymore. Using the base stats from Serebii, Mega Latias is always 2HKOed by Mega Pinsir's unboosted Return and Quick Attack if Latias goes max speed and SpA. If Latias invests in HP instead of SpA, it fails to OHKO Mega Pinsir with Draco Meteor.
Max HP variants also take ~50% from Conkeldurr's Ice Punch and cannot OHKO with Psyshock (neither can max SpA variants) which makes it a shaky counter to Conk. It also cannot stop Aegislash or +1 Mega Charizard X. So, I really doubt Mega Latias will come even close to being banned since it doesn't really help against some of the major threats of OU.

 

[doughboy]

Well of course it can't stop hits from Aegislash or Charizard X... Both have supereffective STAB moves on it and have +130 base attacking stats. Charizard X getting a 33% boost from Hone Claws doesn't help either. It isn't relevant because that is something normal Latias doesn't attempt to stop either.

I don't like theorymoning when we don't really know what its capabilities are yet, but I think that huge boost in physical bulk might give Latias a real chance against Tyranitar and Scizor with Relfect + CM. Reflect could skirt around Tyranitar and Scizor last gen, and it is only going to get better with the boost in physical bulk. Come to think of it, I can't think of many things that would be capable of immediately removing Reflect + CM from the field outside of Fairy-types if running Dragon Pulse. A support set with Reflect and Wish is also a very real possibility.

 

[Red Cat]

Well of course it can't stop hits from Aegislash or Charizard X... Both have supereffective STAB moves on it and have +130 base attacking stats. Charizard X getting a 33% boost from Hone Claws doesn't help either. It isn't relevant because that is something normal Latias doesn't attempt to stop either.

I don't like theorymoning when we don't really know what its capabilities are yet, but I think that huge boost in physical bulk might give Latias a real chance against Tyranitar and Scizor with Relfect + CM. Reflect could skirt around Tyranitar and Scizor last gen, and it is only going to get better with the boost in physical bulk. Come to think of it, I can't think of many things that would be capable of immediately removing Reflect + CM from the field outside of Fairy-types if running Dragon Pulse. A support set with Reflect and Wish is also a very real possibility.

The point I was trying to make is that Mega Latias does not really stop anything significant in OU. Reflect + CM will still have issues with coverage and Mega Latias has no recovery outside of Roost which means such a set could be worn down unless you only use dragon pulse as an attack. And for a support set, Latias would want Light Clay to keep the screens up longer. It may still have its role in OU, but unless there is something we don't know about Mega Latias, the hype is probably overrated.

 

[sidakarya]

To be honest, I'm not really impressed with M-Latios. Yes, it does have boosted attack and possibly could go mixed, but why not use LO-Latios to basically achieve the same effect? Assuming 120 130 Atk, +1 EQ still doesn't really do much against special-defensive fairies (though hitting Heatran and Aegislash is nice), for example:

• +1 252 Atk Mega Latios Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 154-182 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

M-Latias is far more interesting to me, however. It has some godly defensive stats on top of Defog and reliable recovery; it definitely would rival or even surpass M-Venusaur for defensive mon of the decade. Besides the blobs, it may be the only other hard-counter to Y-Zard, another cool thing about it.

 

[Thorhammer]

A lot of this "not too impressive" sounds just like things people said about existing Megas when they first showed up. Let's just wait and see; it's hard to believe that substantial buffs to two powerful Dragon-types will fail to make a splash, at least for whatever roles they become more effective at.

 

[X5Dragon]

I'm pretty sure that against special walls the go to attack is Psyshock:

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 242-286 (61.4 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[The Shellder Smuggler]

Is it true the M Latias is becoming Dragon/Fairy? Also another rumor.

 

[Soul Fly]

Everything apart from the official 3D models is conjencture.

Vertex you might want to update at least the sprites. Those are confirmed genuine.

 

[Thorhammer]

Everything apart from the official 3D models is conjencture.

Vertex you might want to update at least the sprites. Those are confirmed genuine.

This is false. People have hacked the game to investigate, and Serebii now lists the stats, as well as verifying the typing and abilities as unchanged. Serebii is an extremely reliable source; if it's good enough for them, it should be good enough for us.

 

[Rechi]

Is it true the M Latias is becoming Dragon/Fairy? Also another rumor.

Still Dragon/Psychic and Levitate. Literally nothing about either of them changes but the stats.

 

[Monte Cristo]

After doing some calcs on Mega Latias, I'm not so impressed with it anymore. Using the base stats from Serebii, Mega Latias is always 2HKOed by Mega Pinsir's unboosted Return and Quick Attack if Latias goes max speed and SpA. If Latias invests in HP instead of SpA, it fails to OHKO Mega Pinsir with Draco Meteor.
Max HP variants also take ~50% from Conkeldurr's Ice Punch and cannot OHKO with Psyshock (neither can max SpA variants) which makes it a shaky counter to Conk. It also cannot stop Aegislash or +1 Mega Charizard X. So, I really doubt Mega Latias will come even close to being banned since it doesn't really help against some of the major threats of OU.

LOL can someone please tell people to stop running latias like it's latios?

Latias used to be that it should always run at least 76 HP EVs due to the way BW2 worked, but with todays more offensive metagame and latios gaining even more niche due to it being able to actually KO some fairies with psyshock it was forced into very primative defensive roles this gen. Assuming the megas will bring the same balance to it as it once was we can assume that 76+ HP would be correct investment.

Now assuming these following spreads I have run countless calcs to determine the best, latias has extremely amazing levels of succeeding:

76 HP/176 SpA or Atk/252 Spe

calcs

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Latias: 252-299 (78.7 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Latias: 183-216 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
176 SpA Latias Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 288-340 (96.6 - 114%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Knock Off vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Latias: 142-168 (44.3 - 52.5%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO
176 SpA Latias Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 276-326 (66.6 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
etc. This spread is mainly utility and power more than tanking and I generally infd it to be a boring spread

152 HP/100 SpA or Atk/252 Spe

calcs

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Latias: 166-196 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO
100 SpA Latias Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 220-261 (80.8 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame U-turn vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Latias: 144-170 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
4 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 152 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 28-33 (8.2 - 9.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 Atk Life Orb Thundurus Knock Off vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Latias: 146-174 (43 - 51.3%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T Knock Off vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Latias: 146-172 (43 - 50.7%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO
0- Atk Latias Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 248-292 (64.2 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 152 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 186-218 (54.8 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
100 SpA Latias Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 374-444 (142.7 - 169.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Latias: 138-164 (40.7 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0- Atk Latias Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 92-110 (28.3 - 33.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Latias: 282-332 (83.1 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- Atk Latias Earthquake vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 130-154 (46.5 - 55.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
etc

240 HP/16 SpA or Atk/252 Spe

calcs

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Latias: 211-250 (58.4 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
16 SpA Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 135-160 (49.6 - 58.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Latias: 183-216 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
16 SpA Latias Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 154-183 (51.6 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Latias in Sun: 110-130 (30.4 - 36%) -- 48% chance to 3HKO
16 SpA Latias Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 144-171 (48.3 - 57.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Latias: 290-344 (80.3 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
16 SpA Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 284-336 (95.3 - 112.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 224-266 (62 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 HP/152 Def/100 Spe

calcs

252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 152 Def Latias: 160-190 (43.9 - 52.1%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Latias Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 153-181 (51.3 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 152 Def Latias: 124-148 (34 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 152 Def Latias: 258-306 (70.8 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 152 Def Latias: 296-350 (81.3 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
etc

252 HP/252 Def/4 Whatever

calcs

252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias: 168-198 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 49.2% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias: 157-186 (43.1 - 51%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias: 190-226 (52.1 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias: 146-174 (40.1 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 195-231 (53.5 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 151-179 (41.4 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias: 224-266 (61.5 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 146-173 (40.1 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
etc

252/252Sdef/4 Whatever

calcs

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Latias: 344-408 (94.5 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Latias: 156-187 (42.8 - 51.3%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Latias: 152-180 (41.7 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Latias: 150-176 (41.2 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
etc. I have to go now sorry

Overall the

s look very promising and I look forward to their impact on the OU metagame

 

[HauntedPumpkin]

Welp, this is incredibly boring and underwhelming, but it fits the designs then, I guess. I'm glad that Latias looks the more improved one from the 2, and if this is all they have to offer while becoming Mega, I won't say I'm excited to use Latios'. He still can't touch Ferrothorn (outside of HP Fire obvs) and Aegi can still switch-in reliably when unboosted.

252 Atk Latios Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 154-182 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Notice this is also 252 Atk Latios.... if going with that, that sexy 160 SpA unboosted and not EV'ed sounds really meh. It is actually decent damage though.

Latias sounds better with amazing 80/120/150 bulk, but the metagame doesn't do her any favors atm, and her weaknesses are really common, I can't help but wish they'd give her a Dragon/Fairy typing to act like a perfect counter to like every Dragon Pokemon there, but that might have been a bit much lol.

And please, still 110 Speed? Disappointing.

 

[JSteele]

Is there any particular reason as to why they look identical?

 

[Milkshook]

Psyshock 2HKOs Azumarill, too, so Tbolt is only needed for physically defensive Togekiss sets.

I use physically defensive togekiss, its a great switch and counter to the latis.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Is there any particular reason as to why they look identical?

Probably some cheesy shit by nintendo like "the twins truly become identical" or it could be the game not having a model for mega latias thus loading it as mega latios' sprite

 

[Prophet]

Probably some cheesy shit by nintendo like "the twins truly become identical" or it could be the game not having a model for mega latias thus loading it as mega latios' sprite

The models are not identical, the faces and size are different.

 

[Monte Cristo]

The models are not identical, the faces and size are different.

They're the same it's just the angle serebii takes the screenshots at is really stupid, plus lets try to not make some trivial thing as this so important to the discussion

 

[skies]

Why are people even discussing banning these two? Aren't we not supposed too? Ok, I do agree that Mega Latias will be, but I don't think Mega Latios will be, but that's not something really to be discussed. Anyways, I'd like to say that Physically Defensive M-Latias is wholy shit good, like look at this:
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias: 234-276 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
But, I do feel, to be able to withstand Bisharp, it should run Hidden Power [Fighting]:
0 SpA Latias Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 312-368 (115.1 - 135.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Also, if it doesn't run Life Orb:
252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias: 146-174 (40.1 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias: 180-212 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
That's just crazy. I'd really love to run Psyshock / Hidden Power [Fighting] / Calm Mind / Roost, as it is one of the few Megas that don't mind no Leftovers. Look at this power:
+1 0 SpA Latias Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 313-370 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 0 SpA Latias Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 306-360 (43.4 - 51.1%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
It needs +2 to break through Chansey, but it should have no problem getting there. Here are some more moves it doesn't mind taking:
252 Atk Krookodile Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias: 126-150 (34.6 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias: 122-144 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias: 150-177 (41.2 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 151-182 (41.4 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias: 338-402 (92.8 - 110.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias: 102-122 (28 - 33.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 152-180 (41.7 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Latias in Sun: 74-87 (20.3 - 23.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias: 240-280 (65.9 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias: 186-222 (51 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias: 306-360 (84 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 122-146 (33.5 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias: 194-230 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias: 336-396 (92.3 - 108.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias: 195-229 (53.5 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Ok, by now this is just becoming a wall of text, so I'll stop it here. But as you can see, it can handle very many hits and is bulky as fuck.

 

[FurryGah]

What confuses me is why they don't gain any speed from Mega Evolving, considering they end up looking like turbo jets.

 

[LoDart210]

Honestly, I'm a bit disappointed they weren't dragon fairy, they are some of the best candidates. At least latias should have. As for mixed Latios,

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Latios Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 374-442 (92.5 - 109.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Latios Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 286-338 (88.2 - 104.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Meanwhile

252+ Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 240-284 (79.4 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I factored in the new stats in both situations.

I think a mixed dragon dance Latios could work.

 

[Ajwf]

I think when people saying that the two are disappointing, they're more or less like me. I can't help but feel unimpressed after hearing for months Mega Latias would gain a fairy typing. Anything short now is just... Redundant.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

They're the same it's just the angle serebii takes the screenshots at is really stupid, plus lets try to not make some trivial thing as this so important to the discussion

iirc latias and latios retain their eye colours so yeah you can differentiate

not like this is relevant

@lodart: aegi is never using cb: at most this just proves that aegi can't revenge +1 latios at full health, but you should be able to deal some prior dmg to latios before revenging it successfully.

mega latios wouldn't have minded a mixed set if his physical movepool wasn't crap to begin with (yeah... stabs, earthquake, shadow claw...). honestly though, this is probably the most disappointing mega ever, after megazam.

though chances are gamefreak will probably end up releasing some random move tutor in future games that will end up breaking mtios anyway >_>"

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Mega Lati@s will still have issues with the same threats that caused them agony before, like Scizor, Aegislash, and Tyranitar. They needed an ability or type change to be significantly more influential in OU than their base formes are right now, and players will need to weigh whether the base stat increase is worth forgoing a mega slot.

 

[Ajwf]

iirc latias and latios retain their eye colours so yeah you can differentiate

not like this is relevant

@lodart: aegi is never using cb: at most this just proves that aegi can't revenge +1 latios at full health, but you should be able to deal some prior dmg to latios before revenging it successfully.

mega latios wouldn't have minded a mixed set if his physical movepool wasn't crap to begin with (yeah... stabs, earthquake, shadow claw...). honestly though, this is probably the most disappointing mega ever, after megazam.

though chances are gamefreak will probably end up releasing some random move tutor in future games that will end up breaking mtios anyway >_>"

With his stats, if they're true, I'd like to see GF try...

Seriously, I would. They'd need something like fire blast to start, at min. Aura Sphere too. That might be enough, but neither of them will get that anyways...