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Pokémon Pinsir
- Thread starter Adonzo
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A lot of people don't realise just how overpowered M-Pinsir's +2 Return really is
Even a lot of Pokémon that used to be considered decent physical walls in previous generations are straight up OHKOd by Pinsir's neutral +2 Return.
Ex: Vaporeon, Jellicent, Gastrodon, Milotic, Reuniclus, Clefable, Claydol
are all guaranteed OHKOs even at max/max with a positive nature and no Stealth Rock.
252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (most run Speed EVs)
252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-D: 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
32 HP / 252+ Def Wobbuffet: guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 HP / 244+ Def Landorus-T: 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (after Intimidate)
252 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Specially defensive Hippowdon is a guaranteed OHKO even with no SR.
0 HP / 0 Def (offensive) Rotom-W: guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: guaranteed OHKO even if it burns Mega Pinsir first.
Zapdos needs to run 252 HP EVs and 52 Def EVs with a Bold nature to be guaranteed to survive Mega Pinsir's Return after Stealth Rock, despite the resist.
Honestly, I'm surprised there aren't more people here calling for a ban.
X-Scissor mean anything?
Rock, Steel, and Electric Pokemon can (usually) easily take Flying STAB from Pinsir. X-Scissor, while Powerful, doesn't help kill its normal counters. EQ and CC both let it hit the aforementioned types super effectively, and so are usually better. It's also worth mentioning that CC has the same power as XS, so it's really not worth it. Bug hits dark, psychic, and grass super effectively, and almost all of them will die to flying/ground or flying/fighting coverage.
No, because flying stab amazing, ground coverage great, flying priority amazing, bug stab horrendous.
Dark/ psychic pokemon are destroyed by his flying stabs anyway do he doesn't need x scissor. However, he does need earthquake or he'll be walled by almost all steel types. He also needs quick attack to prevent getting revenge killed by faster and frail threats. Swords dance is mandatory for wall breaking and sweeping.
Return/QA/EQ/SD?
It has close combat + storm throw, either of which can be used over EQ to hurt everything you mentioned except Skarmory, who, as you said, absolutely hates Magnezone, scarfed or not.
Not quite sure of your question, but Return/Quick Attack/Swords Dance/(Close Combat or Earthquake) is the standard set. Feint can be used over QA, and and SD can be nixed in order to fit EQ and CC, but otherwise that's the set you should use. X-Scissor, while being an awesome move, just never can make the cut.
Not quite sure of your question, but Return/Quick Attack/Swords Dance/(Close Combat or Earthquake) is the standard set. Feint can be used over QA, and and SD can be nixed in order to fit EQ and CC, but otherwise that's the set you should use. X-Scissor, while being an awesome move, just never can make the cut.[/quote]
Okay earthquake would be a better solution because close combat drops stats right? It relatively hits the same things except flying but you have stab flying to do damage there so...
Okay earthquake would be a better solution because close combat drops stats right? It relatively hits the same things except flying but you have stab flying to do damage there so...
Right. I only suggest CC to people who are wary of Air Balloon Steel Types, such as Heatran, which would be able to wall you.
Also EQ hits a lot more than CC does.
You don't axe swords dance because its vital for sweeping and wallbreaking. Also, Pinsir is rather frail, but he's bulky enough to survive a nonstab super effective hit at max health. Close Combat lowers his defenses and removes that safety cushion.
Pinsir's beau named nasty plot thundurus can take care of skarmory and he can boost on the switchout. Also, did I mention how NP thundurus is an amazing partner for Pinsir?
Pinsir's beau named nasty plot thundurus can take care of skarmory and he can boost on the switchout. Also, did I mention how NP thundurus is an amazing partner for Pinsir?
CC is at best a 20% damage increase over Return. It will not get you past Skarmory. Nothing will.
honestly i think people overestimate skarms ability to wall this thing. you can certainly switch in on an SD and whirlwind away, but return/frustration does a hefty ~47%. calc:
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 142-168 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 39.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
heres max defense skarm:
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 140-165 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- 25.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
if you wanted to actually KILL this thing then brave bird recoil means return is a guaranteed 2HKO even without stealth rocks. so in practice, this means even in the best situation (skarm switches in on an SD with 100% health and no rocks), skarm has two choices when switching in on a pinsir swords dance:
1.) whirlwind it away. this doesn't really solve the problem at all unless you have rocks up and can wear it down. on top of this, if you whirlwind out into something that threatens skarm and you have to switch out, then you'll be at 60% and suddenly that skarm switch-in isn't so appealing when pinsir comes back
2.) brave bird, bring pinsir down to ~20% and then die. hope you have something else that can eat +2 quick attacks.
if you run drill peck over brave bird there is a good chance of 2HKOing pinsir but nobody wants to do that. i should also say that not every skarm is going to use whirlwind, TIbot says 74.298% of skarms on the smogon server run whirlwind, which means that 25.702% of skarms have at best a shaky answer to mega pinsir.
OF COURSE this is theorymonning, there is a good chance that pinsir will not switch in with full health. if you have rocks up then brave bird is (i think) a guaranteed KO at 75%. but i could just as easily say that there is a good chance that skarm will not switch in with full health. in fact skarm is more likely to come in either with prior damage or on rocks because:
- teams that run skarm usually use it to defog
- its gonna be tanking hits all game
im not saying skarmory cant deal with mega pinsir, but slapping skarm on a team certainly does not solve the problem.
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 142-168 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 39.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
heres max defense skarm:
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 140-165 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- 25.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
if you wanted to actually KILL this thing then brave bird recoil means return is a guaranteed 2HKO even without stealth rocks. so in practice, this means even in the best situation (skarm switches in on an SD with 100% health and no rocks), skarm has two choices when switching in on a pinsir swords dance:
1.) whirlwind it away. this doesn't really solve the problem at all unless you have rocks up and can wear it down. on top of this, if you whirlwind out into something that threatens skarm and you have to switch out, then you'll be at 60% and suddenly that skarm switch-in isn't so appealing when pinsir comes back
2.) brave bird, bring pinsir down to ~20% and then die. hope you have something else that can eat +2 quick attacks.
if you run drill peck over brave bird there is a good chance of 2HKOing pinsir but nobody wants to do that. i should also say that not every skarm is going to use whirlwind, TIbot says 74.298% of skarms on the smogon server run whirlwind, which means that 25.702% of skarms have at best a shaky answer to mega pinsir.
OF COURSE this is theorymonning, there is a good chance that pinsir will not switch in with full health. if you have rocks up then brave bird is (i think) a guaranteed KO at 75%. but i could just as easily say that there is a good chance that skarm will not switch in with full health. in fact skarm is more likely to come in either with prior damage or on rocks because:
- teams that run skarm usually use it to defog
- its gonna be tanking hits all game
im not saying skarmory cant deal with mega pinsir, but slapping skarm on a team certainly does not solve the problem.
I simply use MaxDefense Zapdos against Megapinsir. +2 Return does 50%~60% damage while Thunderbolt always gets rid of this thing.
Another way to defeat it is using anything with >105 speed and resist to flying as a check. People seem to forget that this thing isn't like Lucario having different typing for priority: it only has one, Flying. And it is basically a 60 base power move if I'm not mistaken.
Another way to defeat it is using anything with >105 speed and resist to flying as a check. People seem to forget that this thing isn't like Lucario having different typing for priority: it only has one, Flying. And it is basically a 60 base power move if I'm not mistaken.
From redolent's calcs i'd say that even that "60 power move" can ohko alot of offensive threats should it get to +2
Okay, I've been looking into alternative movesets for this guy because I'm tired of seeing the standard set. The issue is, it is standard for a reason. Earthquake is mandatory for Heatran and well, all steels, and quick attack is too useful to get rid of. I'm also reluctant to give up swords dance so it comes down to return. I've had considerable success using Thrash over Return. Here's a quick power comparison:
return is 102*1.30 (aerielate)*1.5...that's around 200 base power. Which is lovely.
thrash is 120*1.3*1.5...that's 236. Which is almost an explosion per turn. At +1, it's ~300 vs. 354, and at +2 it's ~400 vs. 472.
Now, this makes it necessary to be able to ride out two or three turns, but as Pinsir is a late game sweeper anyway, it's usually possible to wear down the other team enough that you can do so.
return is 102*1.30 (aerielate)*1.5...that's around 200 base power. Which is lovely.
thrash is 120*1.3*1.5...that's 236. Which is almost an explosion per turn. At +1, it's ~300 vs. 354, and at +2 it's ~400 vs. 472.
Now, this makes it necessary to be able to ride out two or three turns, but as Pinsir is a late game sweeper anyway, it's usually possible to wear down the other team enough that you can do so.
Its actually okay...except that it limits yo turns ingame, and +2 return ohkos anything not a wall anyway
Thrash just screams to me "Kill this mon' so I can bring out my check and kill Pinsir"
It's really risky IMO.
It's really risky IMO.
Mega Badass thread? AWW YEAH.
OT: I personally hold off evolving this one more than any other. Because Flying is not exactly fantastic defensively, getting my SD in base Pinsir forme is often times the best alternative. For example, staring down a Conkeldurr who predicts the Mega and uses Ice Punch. I get a +2, don't die, and can OHKO afterward with Quick Attack. It is really a beautiful thing that Mega Pinsir got Flying as a subtype, because he has the ability to, with the right predictions, tank a hit, SD up, and go to town.
Also, if I must be honest, I do WAYYY too much work with this guy. I have a team where he is a lead of choice alongside Deoxys-S, and I can't even tell you how many 7 turn games I have had. This guy is a threat you DEFINITELY have to watch out for, and if you aren't prepared, leaving a hole in your team for this guy could cause you to have a very boring 7-turn game.
OT: I personally hold off evolving this one more than any other. Because Flying is not exactly fantastic defensively, getting my SD in base Pinsir forme is often times the best alternative. For example, staring down a Conkeldurr who predicts the Mega and uses Ice Punch. I get a +2, don't die, and can OHKO afterward with Quick Attack. It is really a beautiful thing that Mega Pinsir got Flying as a subtype, because he has the ability to, with the right predictions, tank a hit, SD up, and go to town.
Also, if I must be honest, I do WAYYY too much work with this guy. I have a team where he is a lead of choice alongside Deoxys-S, and I can't even tell you how many 7 turn games I have had. This guy is a threat you DEFINITELY have to watch out for, and if you aren't prepared, leaving a hole in your team for this guy could cause you to have a very boring 7-turn game.
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