SwagPlay, evaluating potential bans (basic definition of "uncompetitive" in OP)

[Toljik]

Rotom-W: will still die if it's unlucky enough, dies to Toxic (and yes, I pack Toxic in my PranksterSwag team)
Chansey: dies to Toxic or if the player decides to pack a Conkeldurr to deal with it (another common tactic I've seem being mentioned multiple times).
Blissey: read above.
Talonflame: gets in, breaks the Substitute, gets confused, has to rely on luck to win. Dies very fast if it attackes itself. Dies even faster if the PranksterSwag uses rocks (another very common tactic).
Magic Bounce: everything with this ability is weak to Foul Play
Infiltrator or sound moves: deals with the Substitute but does not prevent confusion.
Magic Guard: prevents residual damage from confusion but does not prevent confusion itself, or damage from Foul Play.
Lum Berry: only works once, will not stop an entire team of Pranksters.

Foul Play does nothing to most Magic Bounce/Guard users since their Attack is so pitiful. Lower Espeon's Attack IVs to 0 and

4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 106-126 (38.9 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Rotom-W needs to be at +6 to take significant damage from Foul Play.

And yes, some SwagPlay counters lose to Toxic. But how do you fit Toxic on your moveslot? Do you get rid of Foul Play, Substitute, or Thunder Wave? If you get rid of even one of those, your list of counters grows.

Rotom, Chansey and Blissey might not take much dmg from swagger but they cant do anything back either, exept maybe trying to pp stall the enemy which isnt going to happen against a full swag play team. Talonflame doesnt get priority Flare Blitz and will just die to swagger. Infiltrator doesnt help at all when the only thing u hit is ur own pokemon and magic guard/Bounce users just fall to foul play nothing of that can stop the strategy itself it might reduce its effectiveness to some degree but u will still have to rely on luck to win.

The blobs can Seismic Toss/Toxic and Rotom-W can break Substitutes and escape confusion at once with Volt Switch.

 

[Ajwf]

Ajwf, you didn't have to take it so literally, holy shit. Chess requires you to plan ahead, to think, and requires intuition. In Monopoly, you roll a dice and hope for the best. Swagplay's skill cap goes up to utilizing some hazards, a Chansey/Blissey killer, and a Scarf Ditto. It requires almost no skill, no intuition, no prediction, just luck.

I'm not "defiling" the name of chess. I realize Pokemon will never be truly competitive, and will never compare to chess or Starcraft or bridge. But if you build good teams, can analyze your opponents, and can plan ahead, you will win more. The games you lose to hax will be minimal in the long run. I've had 44-0-0 and 52-2-0 records. I can guarantee you, if I played against Swagplay in each of those 44 games, I would have had a record closer to 34-10.

It's not just you, though. This thread has numerous examples of people believing something completely false. If you read through the thread, it wouldn't take much time to come up with many posts that have that belief of Pokemon = chess, Pokemon = skill, or prankster = Satan, something to that effect. My frustration is that this is a completely false way to discredit banning a move distributed to every single pokemon in the game when the problem lies with so few. Using false beliefs to justify viewpoints, such as believing Arceus is god when clearly Mew is, is infuriating to anyone trying to defend a point, especially when so few take the time to read what's been stated and form a rational view.

 

[Arcticblast]

Ajwf if hax is the greatest enemy to stall as you say then I applaud you on making a stall team that has no trouble with Mega Garchomp, all variants of Kyurem-B, Hydreigon, Manaphy, Landorus-I, and Mega Pinsir :)

 

[Baharoth]

The blobs can Seismic Toss/Toxic and Rotom-W can break Substitutes and escape confusion at once with Volt Switch

They can if they get lucky and attack. If ur just assuming u win the dice roll u dont need any of that and can simply use ur sweeper of choice. Thing is most of the time it wont go that way and even blissey will take quite a bit of dmg from + 6 confusion.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Foul Play does nothing to most Magic Bounce/Guard users since their Attack is so pitiful. Lower Espeon's Attack IVs to 0 and

4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 106-126 (38.9 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

And yes, some SwagPlay counters lose to Toxic. But how do you fit Toxic on your moveslot? Do you get rid of Foul Play, Substitute, or Thunder Wave?

Thunder Wave.

I have 4 Pranksters. One of them carries Toxic instead of Thunder Wave and becomes less effective in general, but effective against walls. I actually use it with Thundurus since it's so fragile and it's not the best Prankster to deal with sweepers, so I save it for walls. If I see a wall on team preview, I'll save Thundurus for later.

The thing about my PranksterSwag team is not to have strategies that always work, but to eliminate any factor that might remove luck from the match and ensure the RNG gods stay in full control of it, so even if I can lose, I can always win. In the same fashion, I pack a Deoxys-D to spam hazards in the beginning, just in case the opponent is not lucky enough to have a spinner. If I'm sucessful, I deny him of PP stalling.

It's deliciously evil. I think i'll miss it once it's banned. Then again, I'll remember all the times it was used against me, and I'll not.

 

[Aquaslash]

Last I checked, Mega Absol SHOULD be running Fire Blast as it's his best answer to bug types while also allowing him to use play rough. Pretty sure klefki isn't enjoying those too much. While I'm wholly against bans of this type, I did see the idea of limiting the amount of things on a team with the prankster/swagger combination, and I think that's probably the fairest answer you can get.

 

[Toljik]

They can if they get lucky and attack. If ur just assuming u win the dice roll u dont need any of that and can simply use ur sweeper of choice. Thing is most of the time it wont go that way and even blissey will take quite a bit of dmg from + 6 confusion.

Confusion damage is 50 base power and typeless, right? Let's make Tackle Fairy type (to eliminate STAB) and see what happens to the blobs.

+6 0- Atk Chansey Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 11-14 (1.5 - 1.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+6 0- Atk Blissey Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 25-30 (3.5 - 4.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever

 

[Lazyboy0337]

So 50% you fucked up a skill based game and won, 50% you just gave them a x2 attack boost and sent out a dark type with half of its move pool wasted. BUT, then you send out Ditto to copy their stats and get the bonus back with more speed. So no, it doesn't blow up in your face, it falls on the floor for your dog to eat and fix everything for you.

Except that special attackers exist. A Ditto that coped a +2 attack Alakazam is nothing special.

Also again it's 45% because Swagger accuracy is 90%, meaning the odds are against the Swagplayer.

 

[Ladder Heroes]

I'd say ban a 100% Paralysis move being used in conjunction with a 100% Confusion inducing move. Then, I'd also ban Prankster and and Swagger being used on the same set. IMO these two combos are the only two broken enough to ban

 

[Seiterman]

I don't think we're gonna get anywhere reiterating the possible in-game answers to SwagPlay teams. It's been done several times over the last 20-30 pages. People are going to keep making accounts for the specific purpose of arguing on this topic (seriously that's like half of this thread,) so instead of repeating calculations over and over, let's just tell them to go read through any given 5 pages of this thread.

Consider the main draws of competitive Pokemon. Why does someone play this game? For me, I enjoy the level of strategy and skill involved, and while I accept the element of luck and know the game wouldn't be itself without it, that's not what brings me here. If I want something that's 100% based on skill, I can play Chess or most fighting games. If I want to play something that's mostly luck with a bit of skill involved, I can play Poker or Monopoly. If I want to play a game of coin flips, I can literally sit in my room with a coin and flip it over and over until I realize how dumb that is. Pokemon is the game I play when I want something that's mostly skill with a bit of luck.

SwagPlay pushes Pokemon far into the luck end of the spectrum. It hurts the main draw of the game. Maybe not everyone's had to deal with it much, but when it clearly detracts from the fun of the game for others while only really benefiting trolls and players that are too lazy to use skill-based strategies, I don't know why you'd be so adamantly against letting it be fun for the other competitive players again.

 

[Baharoth]

Confusion damage is 50 base power and typeless, right? Let's make Tackle Fairy type (to eliminate STAB) and see what happens to the blobs.

+6 0- Atk Chansey Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 11-14 (1.5 - 1.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+6 0- Atk Blissey Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 25-30 (3.5 - 4.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever



So what do you do when they simply switch out and heal with Natural Cure?

Hm ok guess i was wrong on that part. However chansey/blissey still wont win the battle on their own and can easily taken care of with toxic so that doesnt get u anywhere in the long run.

 

[Ajwf]

Arcticblast
SkarmChansey for Kyub(Sub-3 attack or band both)/Mega Pinsir/ (Chansey specifically handles Manaphy/Landorus-I) Clefable/Sylveon for Hydregion/Kyub, and AV slowbro+Skarm to take care of Garchomp-mega (Even mixed with be walled when used in conjunction with Slowbro's fire resist and ice access)... All in four pokemon, and could probably skip the Sylveon part and rely on skarmBliss to take everything. Kyub is an odd beast who breaks stall when mixed but is rather easy if Band/Sub+3 Special. Regardless, Hyper Voice fairies stop it.

It can be done. Currently, the standard VenuTranSkarmBliss core for stall handles this relatively well, only needing a chomp check/counter outside of it.
While it is beside the point, there is no doubt it could easily be done. With something as bulky as this, and now because you don't get burn/freeze off 30% moves, no flinches or the likes do the lack of luck, you'd have to start by knock off and slowly cripple me with hazards, hoping you can trap/destroy skarm with me making a bad play because you wouldn't have crits to assist when fusion bolt only does 47% uninvested?

Yeah, Luck really helps teams vs stall.

 

[Soul Fly]

Guys I'm also anti-pranksterswag, and it's well established to be a luckfag, but can we not cherrypick to make it sound invincible? Only hurts the stand and gives people reason to retort making this discussion all the more banal. Yes the pink blobs are a legit counter to the strategy. Let us not try to convenientyly theorymon around that fact.

 

[Ryin]

Ninja Charizard Thanks for reminding me to say this. One of the big things about Prankster Swagger is that even if you get through all of the Pranksters your opponent has, the strain they might have put on your team (specially if they have hazards) may be so big that their last few pokemon have little to do to win the match.

 

[Toljik]

Thunder Wave.

I have 4 Pranksters. One of them carries Toxic instead of Thunder Wave and becomes less effective in general, but effective against walls. I actually use it with Thundurus since it's so fragile and it's not the best Prankster to deal with sweepers, so I save it for walls. If I see a wall on team preview, I'll save Thundurus for later.

The thing about my PranksterSwag team is not to have strategies that always work, but to eliminate any factor that might remove luck from the match and ensure the RNG gods stay in full control of it, so even if I can lose, I can always win. In the same fashion, I pack a Deoxys-D to spam hazards in the beginning, just in case the opponent is not lucky enough to have a spinner. If I'm sucessful, I deny him of PP stalling.

It's deliciously evil. I think i'll miss it once it's banned. Then again, I'll remember all the times it was used against me, and I'll not.

Wait. So you're being smart about your move and Pokemon choices, and making sure that your team covers all possible threats, dealing with walls and sweepers in different ways?

That doesn't sound very luck-based at all. That sounds like skill. You are doing better than the average SwagPlay user because you're using your brain.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

It's not just you, though. This thread has numerous examples of people believing something completely false. If you read through the thread, it wouldn't take much time to come up with many posts that have that belief of Pokemon = chess, Pokemon = skill, or prankster = Satan, something to that effect. My frustration is that this is a completely false way to discredit banning a move distributed to every single pokemon in the game when the problem lies with so few. Using false beliefs to justify viewpoints, such as believing Arceus is god when clearly Mew is, is infuriating to anyone trying to defend a point, especially when so few take the time to read what's been stated and form a rational view.

I believe certainly playstyles and tactics can make an individual battle more similar to chess... for instance, I do not like the inherent level of prediction with most Choice users, so I rarely use Choice items, except for Scarf Genesect.

Indeed, SwagPlay teams do incense certain players, but we should at least discover the particular games mechanics that causes such passions instead of blithely demanding that Swagger should be banned. To me, it is largely the existence of Klefki and more SwagPlay users in Gen 6 that makes the strategy frustrating to play against.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

So what do you do when they simply switch out and heal with Natural Cure?

I use the extra turn to replace my Substitute, Toxic another pokemon that certainly won't like it or just confuse it. Blissey won't beat me if she has to switch out every time I poison her. She'll just give me free turns, which can be hazardous to the enemy team. And if she is the last pokemon (which is what usually happens), I win.

Then again, the opponent may by lucky and kill my Toxic user before Blissey goes down. Who knows. Make your bet, the trolling is on you.

 

[Lazyboy0337]

Consider the main draws of competitive Pokemon. Why does someone play this game? For me, I enjoy the level of strategy and skill involved, and while I accept the element of luck and know the game wouldn't be itself without it, that's not what brings me here. If I want something that's 100% based on skill, I can play Chess or most fighting games. If I want to play something that's mostly luck with a bit of skill involved, I can play Poker or Monopoly. If I want to play a game of coin flips, I can literally sit in my room with a coin and flip it over and over until I realize how dumb that is. Pokemon is the game I play when I want something that's mostly skill with a bit of luck.

SwagPlay pushes Pokemon far into the luck end of the spectrum. It hurts the main draw of the game. Maybe not everyone's had to deal with it much, but when it clearly detracts from the fun of the game for others while only really benefiting trolls and players that are too lazy to use skill-based strategies, I don't know why you'd be so adamantly against letting it be fun for the other competitive players again.

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know this was your game. We should ban anything that removes your fun because it's all about you.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Wait. So you're being smart about your move choices, and making sure that your team covers all possible threats, and dealing with walls and sweepers in different ways?

That doesn't sound very luck-based at all. That sounds like skill. You are doing better than the average SwagPlay user because you're using your brain.

In team building? Yes, I'm using my brain.

In the actual match? Nope, I'm just following a recipe. It's braindead easy. There's almost no prediction involved, just follow a certain sequence of actions and I'll have a decent chance of winning. Even if that chance it's lower than 50%, the purpose of this set is to troll, not to get high on the ladder. Though I have been climbing steadly since I began using it, I'm already in the 1400s.

And the problem with this strategy is exactly the fact that the match itself becomes entirely luck based and requires no actual thinking of the user once the teambuilding phase is finished.

 

[Toljik]

I believe certainly playstyles and tactics can make an individual battle more similar to chess... for instance, I do not like the inherent level of prediction with most Choice users, so I rarely use Choice items, except for Scarf Genesect.

Indeed, SwagPlay teams do incense certain players, but we should at least discover the particular games mechanics that causes such passions instead of blithely demanding that Swagger should be banned. To me, it is largely the existence of Klefki and more SwagPlay users in Gen 6 that makes the strategy frustrating to play against.

That's something we need to remember here. All this uproar is being caused by two Pokemon, Klefki and Thundurus. Nobody was complaining about Liepard last gen outside of NU. (Well, they were, but only its SPOOKY BOOGIE set).

In team building? Yes, I'm using my brain.

In the actual match? Nope, I'm just following a recipe. It's braindead easy. There's almost no prediction involved, just follow a certain sequence of actions and I'll have a decent chance of winning. Even if that chance it's lower than 50%, the purpose of this set is to troll, not to get high on the ladder. Though I have been climbing steadly since I began using it, I'm already in the 1400s.

And the problem with this strategy is exactly the fact that the match itself becomes entirely luck based and requires no actual thinking of the user once the teambuilding phase is finished.

There's many other, legitimate team styles and Pokemon that follow a formula. DragMag comes to mind: Eliminate anything that stops you from pressing THE BUTTON, then press THE BUTTON.

 

[Wobbyble]

Ajwf, Chess is 100% skill, 0% luck. Pokemon in general is 90% skill, 10% luck. Playing against Swagplay is 70% skill, 30% luck.
See what I'm getting at? It's really simple, Swagplay is not competitive. Numbers are obviously not objective, so don't take it literally.

That's something we need to remember here. All this uproar is being caused by two Pokemon, Klefki and Thundurus. Nobody was complaining about Liepard last gen outside of NU. (Well, they were, but only its SPOOKY BOOGIE set).



There's many other, legitimate team styles that follow a formula. DragMag comes to mind: Eliminate anything that stops you from pressing THE BUTTON, then press THE BUTTON.

I've been complaining about Swagplay since Generation V. It was a problem in NU with Liepard and it was a huge problem in Little Cup with Murkrow (and still is).

 

[Ninja Charizard]

There's many other, legitimate team styles and Pokemon that follow a formula. DragMag comes to mind: Eliminate anything that stops you from pressing THE BUTTON, then press THE BUTTON.

Except that other legitimate team styles are not based on coin flips. They are based on trying to oustsmart your opponent and predicting what he will do to stop your strategy, so you can attack first and stop their counter. That's competition.

Turning the entire match into a game of roulette is not competition.

 

[Toljik]

Except that other legitimate team styles are not based on coin flips. They are based on trying to oustsmart your opponent and predicting what he will do to stop your strategy, so you can attack first and stop their counter. That's competition.

Turning the entire match into a game of roulette is not competition.

It is a competition if some teams handle SwagPlay better than others.

If those checks and counters can be beaten (and your team is proof that they can), then SwagPlay isn't a problem because it's uncompetitive, it's a problem because it's just plain broken.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

Ajwf, Chess is 100% skill, 0% luck. Pokemon in general is 90% skill, 10% luck. Playing against Swagplay is 70% skill, 30% luck.
See what I'm getting at? It's really simple, Swagplay is not competitive. Numbers are obviously not objective, so don't take it literally.

I've been complaining about Swagplay since Generation V. It was a problem in NU with Liepard and it was a huge problem in Little Cup with Murkrow (and still is).

Stop using the word "skill"; the differences in skill should manifest itself during a course of a long serious of battles as in Poker they do over many hands.

Arguable SwagPlay is skill. If a player deems the odds of succeeding with a SwagPlay Pokemon are good in the context of their team and the metagame, the decision to run SwagPlay competitively (not as a troll strategy) is a judgment based one's knowledge of the current metagame, team building, and mechanics.

Competitive Pokemon is what it is, and arguable a "unique' element to the game is ecology, since the metagame itself is dynamic.

--
No, I do not know if managing a baseball team, both as a general manager and a manager. For instance, managers usually send in a right-handed pitcher to face a right-handed batter in critical situations, and usually reserve their best bullpen

Billy Beane was extolled by exploiting the pricing inefficiencies and the mechanics of baseball by utilizing the discipline of sabermetrics. Essentially, he deemed that players with a high on-base percentage were undervalued over players with a high batting average (while not generating walks) and power in producing runs. Baseball is certainly a game based on luck, but talent does reveal itself over the course of a 162 game season.

The Red Sox "haxed" Rivera in Game 4 of the 2004 ALCS.

I dislike the liberal pejorative use of the term "luck" instead of probability.

 

[Ununhexium]

It is a competition if some teams handle SwagPlay better than others.

If those checks and counters can be beaten (and your team is proof that they can), then SwagPlay isn't a problem because it's uncompetitive, it's a problem because it's just plain broken.

we arent discussing if its broken, its whether it turns the game into a roulette. which it does.