Other The OU Theorymon Project (CLOSED)

[Yoshuriken]

Competitive Azelf would've been much better if it activates upon Intimidate like Defiant does, oh well.

Bulletproof Metagross doesn't sound all that great to me. Sure a Shadow Ball immunity would be sweet but that's pretty much all it gives him, and Clear Body makes him immune to Intimidate. The Levitate from before was better.

Ghost/Dark MBannette doesn't sound like that much of a help either... You lose ghost and dark weaknesses for a fairy one... meh. I know he'll also get STAB sucker punch and knock off, but still.

And Intimidate Rhyperior. Sand Stream would've been better imo, but TTar would outclass him then. Not as enthused with this one as much, but he'd have such a high defensive capability. Could be like AV TTar but on the physical side... interesting to say the least.

Intimidate Rhyperior.

 

[higglybiggly]

Competitive Azelf would've been much better if it activates upon Intimidate like Defiant does, oh well.

Bulletproof Metagross doesn't sound all that great to me. Sure a Shadow Ball immunity would be sweet but that's pretty much all it gives him, and Clear Body makes him immune to Intimidate. The Levitate from before was better.

Ghost/Dark MBannette doesn't sound like that much of a help either... You lose ghost and dark weaknesses for a fairy one... meh. I know he'll also get STAB sucker punch and knock off, but still.

And Intimidate Rhyperior. Sand Stream would've been better imo, but TTar would outclass him then. Not as enthused with this one as much, but he'd have such a high defensive capability. Could be like AV TTar but on the physical side... interesting to say the least.

Intimidate Rhyperior.

It does act upon intimidate unless I'm mistaken about something. But I'm pretty sure it's the same thing as Defiant except with the spA stat, and instead of getting +1 atk from intimidate it gets +2 spA so that's a plus.

 

[JMach]

Ghost / Dark Banette - The thing is already capable of more mind games than Derren Brown with the right sets. It's the glaring weaknesses to Ghost and Dark that really hurt it in OU atm. Still, I was surprised to see it ranked D in viability. I feel many people are a) simply not giving it a chance at all or b) not using it's most effective sets.

Competitive Azelf would've been much better if it activates upon Intimidate like Defiant does, oh well.

Bulletproof Metagross doesn't sound all that great to me. Sure a Shadow Ball immunity would be sweet but that's pretty much all it gives him, and Clear Body makes him immune to Intimidate. The Levitate from before was better.

Ghost/Dark MBannette doesn't sound like that much of a help either... You lose ghost and dark weaknesses for a fairy one... meh. I know he'll also get STAB sucker punch and knock off, but still.

And Intimidate Rhyperior. Sand Stream would've been better imo, but TTar would outclass him then. Not as enthused with this one as much, but he'd have such a high defensive capability. Could be like AV TTar but on the physical side... interesting to say the least.

Intimidate Rhyperior.

I don't really feel a Fairy weakness is particularly detrimental to Mega Banette, or at least not if it's a Phantom Force set. Switch ins will almost always outspeed and aren't going to enjoy missing an attack to take a PF.

Meganette makes for a very potent hit-and-run attacker in this respect. Even physically bulky fairies won't enjoy a STAB Phantom Force coming off a base 165 Attack stat, especially when it's with impunity.

 

[Salemance]

Metagross' problem didn't really lie in Focus Blast as much as it did with SE moves, cause it can tank neutral hits. However even if you get rid of one weakness (Ghost), it still has a Ground, Fire, and Dark weakness. Not to mention in Gen 6 these type moves are everywhere. Knock off has greatly risen in usage as Dark type Pokemon such as Bisharp have. Fire has always been a good coverage move finding it's place in several Pokemon's movesets. Not to mention that we now have the charizard forms and Talonflame. and Ground has always been an extremely popular coverage option, and Metagross will often find itself being 2HKO'd or OHKO'd by these coverage moves coming from an offensive pokemon. Sure it does fix part of the problem but that's not a big enough piece of it to make it viable.

IF it isn't, then it isn't. Yes I know they are not all of his problems, but still, it helps solve some of it. Meta has a lot of stuff that needs to be addressed and sadly we just can not do it with a lot of the suggestions given(best I can say is remove Psychic Typing and replace it with something else (what that is is beyond me) but that is not this theory mon) and just try to do the best that we can.

 

[Yoshuriken]

It does act upon intimidate unless I'm mistaken about something. But I'm pretty sure it's the same thing as Defiant except with the spA stat, and instead of getting +1 atk from intimidate it gets +2 spA so that's a plus.

Yes, I was mistaken. The wording for the two abilities on Pokemondb is different; hence my error.

Ghost / Dark Banette - The thing is already capable of more mind games than Derren Brown with the right sets. It's the glaring weaknesses to Ghost and Dark that really hurt it in OU atm. Still, I was surprised to see it ranked D in viability. I feel many people are a) simply not giving it a chance at all or b) not using it's most effective sets.


I don't really feel a Fairy weakness is particularly detrimental to Mega Banette, or at least not if it's a Phantom Force set. Switch ins will almost always outspeed and aren't going to enjoy missing an attack to take a PF.

Meganette makes for a very potent hit-and-run attacker in this respect. Even physically bulky fairies won't enjoy a STAB Phantom Force coming off a base 165 Attack stat, especially when it's with impunity.

I wasn't trying to say a fairy weakness would be bad for MBannette, but rather the switch from two weaknesses to just one isn't as huge of a boon as it could be. Of course, the new weakness IS better, but still. I just don't think it's that big of a boost.

 

[JMach]

Yes, I was mistaken. The wording for the two abilities on Pokemondb is different; hence my error.


I wasn't trying to say a fairy weakness would be bad for MBannette, but rather the switch from two weaknesses to just one isn't as huge of a boon as it could be. Of course, the new weakness IS better, but still. I just don't think it's that big of a boost.

Sure thing - however, as a frequent user of Meganette, I can vouch for dark and ghost attacks being the biggest hurdles for her in OU.

Not needing to fear Shadow Balls, Sneaks and Dark Pulses is a pretty huge deal and would, I feel in many cases, massively increase Meganette's longevity.

Her biggest asset is longevity. The longer she stays on the field, the more shenanigans she can dish out. With her sky-high Attack and dastardly movepool, she's not something a smart opponent wants sticking around.

 

[chaostothemax]

My vote goes to Bulletproof Metagross.

 

[Magnemite]

Intimidate Rhyperior

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Huge power on anything with higher than 50 base attack makes it usable. So... yeah.

The votes seem pretty balanced between everything that isn't Competitive Azelf. I agree that Metagross is a bit past its prime, but I'm torn between Ghost/Dark Mega Banette and Solid Rock Rhyperior. Both have their plusses, but I'm gonna go with Ghost / Dark Mega Banette because I like 3rd gen Pokes (bias yay), and Banette always has so much wasted potential to me. Maybe this'll be its saving grace!

sarcasm man. sarcasm

Also, I hate you and your 3rd gen. 1st gen FTW!

 

[alexwolf]

And here are the results:

Ghost / Dark Mega Banette: 10
Bulletproof Metagross: 22
Intimidate Rhyperior: 11
Competitive Azelf: 10

So, our theorymon is:

+ Bulletproof

Happy discussion guys, the OP will be updated soon.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

With the Shadow Ball immunity, this thing looks like a pretty great switch-in to Aegislash:
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 128-152 (35.1 - 41.7%) -- 78% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 428-504 (132 - 155.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 174-206 (53.7 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[higglybiggly]

Metagross' problem didn't really lie in Focus Blast as much as it did with SE moves, cause it can tank neutral hits. However even if you get rid of one weakness (Ghost), it still has a Ground, Fire, and Dark weakness. Not to mention in Gen 6 these type moves are everywhere. Knock off has greatly risen in usage as Dark type Pokemon such as Bisharp have. Fire has always been a good coverage move finding it's place in several Pokemon's movesets. Not to mention that we now have the charizard forms and Talonflame. and Ground has always been an extremely popular coverage option, and Metagross will often find itself being 2HKO'd or OHKO'd by these coverage moves coming from an offensive pokemon. Sure it does fix part of the problem but that's not a big enough piece of it to make it viable.

Basically what I've already said. There are just too many pokemon that can easily take on Metagross. Just to list a few with some damage calcs.

0 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 236-282 (64.8 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Landorus-T: 166-196 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 408-480 (112 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Metagross Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 226-266 (75.8 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 342-404 (93.9 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 195-231 (65.4 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 200-236 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 142-168 (52.2 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The worst part about this is that every single one of these outspeeds it, and in case you're wondering none of the above get taken out by a combo of Attack x Bullet Punch. These are just 4 off the top of my head, but there are others. Manaphy can setup all over Metagross and proceed to take it out. Even Scizor can.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 305-360 (83.7 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Metagross Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 124-146 (44.1 - 51.9%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO

So metagross can absorb a hit or two, but it can't hit back hard enough to make up for the sheer amount of speed all its threats have. BTW these are all physical attacks. If we're talking about special attacks Metagross doesn't stand a chance, unless he runs AV which is a decent set for it but then it gets worn down very quickly since there's quite a few pokemon who can switch into Metagross.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Bullet Proof doesn't really help WP Agility Metagross (hinders it, really) which is in my opinion Metagross' only good set to run in OU. I don't think this ability would really help him that much.

 

[Lovelace]

Yup any Pokemon that gets taken out by a strong STAB super effective hit from a top offensive threat is definitely useless.

 

[alexwolf]

Countering Aegislash and Mega Gardevoir is definitely a good reason to use Metagross over other Steel-types. Furthermore, Metagross has Meteor Mash, which is great to deal with the annoying as fuck CM Clefable, which not many Steel-types other than Iron Head Excadrill or Bullet Punch Scizor can do. Add in Pursuit, Earthquake, Zen Headbutt (fu Rotom-W), Ice Punch, and Bullet Punch to the mix, and you have a very unique Steel-type.

Let's compare Metagross with the best Steel-type tanks and see what it has over them:

vs Scizor / Mega Scizor

Checking Aegislash, Gengar, Latios, and Latias better, EQ, SR, Ice Punch, and Zen Headbutt are Metagross's advantages.


vs Heatran

Checking Aegislash, Gengar, Clefable, Latios, and Latias better, EQ, Pursuit, and Zen Headbutt are Metagross's advantages.


vs Excadrill

Checking Aegislash, Gengar, Latios, Latias, and Mega Gardevoir better, neutrality to Fighting moves, Ice Punch, Pursuit, and Zen Headbutt are Metagross's advantages.


vs Aegislash

Checking Aegislash, Gengar, and Clefable better, SR, Zen Headbutt, Ice Punch, and Earthquake are Metagross's advantages.

 

[Yoshuriken]

Well, I've found that Bulletproof Metagross now becomes the ultimate counter to Reuniclus:

+1 4 SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 62-73 (17 - 20%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 144-171 (33.9 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Reuniclus has to run Thunder to deal with Metagross!
+1 4 SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Thunder vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 204-240 (56 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

As alexwolf said, he checks Lati@s well, as long as Latios isn't running HP Fire:
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 139-165 (38.1 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 166-198 (45.6 - 54.3%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 201-237 (66.5 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It also counters most Gengar variants, but usually dies to Dark Pulse sets. Thus, Dark Pulse may rise in usage on Gengar.

I must confess, Bulletproof Metagross looks quite a bit better in the OU meta than I originally thought. And making Aegislash think twice before firing off a shadow ball just because Metagross is on the opponent's team--that's pretty awesome.

 

[Salemance]

missed the vote by two hours...sheesh. This is driving me crazy.

Anyway, I think being able to be a Shadow Ball/Focus Blast absorber is quite great. With Focus Blast being one of the most used Coverage moves, he can get a variety of switch ins. Then you are able to abuse not being hit by the single most used Ghost type attack, then you have a great pivot. While he still has some bad weaknesses, being able to do this should allow a great many things.

I think he will end up being a great partner for some guys who end up getting hit by said attacks often. One that comes to my mid is Hydreigon, who is also Dark resistant and a Levitate user while being Fire Resistant. Metagross is also a Fairy resist, but the two of these in my mind, end up being a powerful check/balance combination (while both being guys past their prime).

 

[JMach]

Well, I've found that Bulletproof Metagross now becomes the ultimate counter to Reuniclus:

+1 4 SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 62-73 (17 - 20%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 144-171 (33.9 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Reuniclus has to run Thunder to deal with Metagross!
+1 4 SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Thunder vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 204-240 (56 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

As alexwolf said, he checks Lati@s well, as long as Latios isn't running HP Fire:
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 139-165 (38.1 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 166-198 (45.6 - 54.3%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 201-237 (66.5 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It also counters most Gengar variants, but usually dies to Dark Pulse sets. Thus, Dark Pulse may rise in usage on Gengar.

I must confess, Bulletproof Metagross looks quite a bit better in the OU meta than I originally thought. And making Aegislash think twice before firing off a shadow ball just because Metagross is on the opponent's team--that's pretty awesome.

Surely Reuniclus can just stall Gross out with Recover..?

Either way, I wonder if a CB Gross would be viable with Bulletproof in OU. Could function somewhat similarly to some Magnezone sets - force switches and get off a big hit. Meh idk, I still think Levitate would have been the nuts on Gross.

 

[Impy]

Bulletproof is a fun gimmick for the tankmonster pokemon, but doesn't save him from losing all of his useful resistances -therefore gaining two very bad weaknesses- and generally now being outclassed by every other bulky physical attacker ever.

 

[Rotten Seagull]

I do generally agree with the posts here. Bulletproof gives Metagross a definitive niche in that it is able to more easily handle several specially based mons with its new immunities to shadow ball and focus blast. However, the ability fails to remedy its existing flaws, or provide an edge over its usual counters and checks (bar Aegislash).

Metagross stil cannot check physical Aegislash well (if it still is a thing).

What it gains overall is the ability to check special Aegislash, possibly counter Gengar, and absolutely ruin Reuniclus's day.

 

[Chou Toshio]

252 HP / 252 ATK / 4 Speed
@Assault Vest
-Meteor Mash
-Earthquake
-Pursuit
-Ice Punch / Explosion

This Pokemon will wreck Latios / Latias / Gengar / Starmie / Aegislash completely, not to mention Clefable, Gardevoir, Togekiss, and Sylveon

Iron Ball
-Trick
-Earthquake
-Ice Punch
-Meteor Mash

Fuck you Rotom-W (and Gengar, and Aegislash, and whatever Psychic- and Fairy- types)

252 ATK / 252 Speed / 4HP
Leftovers / Life Orb
-Gravity
-Earthquake
-Meteor Mash
-Ice Punch

Fuck you Rotom-W

WeaKness Policy
-Agility
-Meteor Mash
-Earthquake
-Ice Punch

What was that about not being useful for Agility?

Leftovers
-SR
-Meteor Mash
-Earthquake
-Ice Punch

 

[Seiterman]

I know that Bulletproof doesn't fix Metagross' current problems, but that doesn't really seem to be the point. Rather, it lets him be a lot more effective in spite of those problems. Immunities to Shadow Ball, Aura Sphere and Focus Blast are the crux of the buff, letting him single-handedly take on a large number of Pokemon that rely on those moves for coverage or STAB. While the other immunities aren't as big a deal seeing as Metagross already resists most other ball and bomb moves, they can come in handy once in a while (if you're ever up against a Sun team utilizing Weather Ball, I guess?)

Metagross has always had a lot of options available, so I'd say there likely wouldn't be a definitive "standard," set. Rather, you'd see a lot of sets tailored to different teams. I haven't even seen a Choice Band set recommended yet, but it's one of the first options that came to mind for me. Metagross can join in on the priority craze with CB Bullet Punches. While they aren't as strong as Scizors, they still deal good damage and can help take out weakened threats (or Ice/Rock types.)

 

[higglybiggly]

The only new Pokemon that Metagross checks/counters that it hasn't before is Gengar, Aegislash, Alakazam, and M-Gardevoir. All the pokemon that you guys are listing that it can check, it could already check and counter, so obviously it had some kind of problem that was preventing it from doing well in OU then, and Bulletproof does not fix that. Shadow Ball is the most used ghost move but it doesn't have such a wide distribution as people think. Gengar, Aegislash, and Alakazam are really the only ones that use it. And a lot of the pokemon that carry Focus Blast for coverage usually have a different attack that deals more damage anyway. For example Char-Y and Thundurus-T/I. Right now most of the arguments being made have little to do with Bulletproof. We might as well be discussing the viability of regular ol Metagross.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

The only new Pokemon that Metagross checks/counters that it hasn't before is Gengar, Aegislash, Alakazam, and M-Gardevoir. All the pokemon that you guys are listing that it can check, it could already check and counter, so obviously it had some kind of problem that was preventing it from doing well in OU then, and Bulletproof does not fix that. Shadow Ball is the most used ghost move but it doesn't have such a wide distribution as people think. Gengar, Aegislash, and Alakazam are really the only ones that use it. And a lot of the pokemon that carry Focus Blast for coverage usually have a different attack that deals more damage anyway. For example Char-Y and Thundurus-T/I. Right now most of the arguments being made have little to do with Bulletproof. We might as well be discussing the viability of regular ol Metagross.

Just the fact that he switches into Aegislash with absolutely no fear is worth it. I mean, what else does that? Mandibuzz I guess, but that's about it. Aegislash is incredibly difficult to handle for many teams and if Metagross can do the job, that's definitely enough to make him a good option in OU.

 

[Chou Toshio]

The only new Pokemon that Metagross checks/counters that it hasn't before is Gengar, Aegislash, Alakazam, and M-Gardevoir. All the pokemon that you guys are listing that it can check, it could already check and counter, so obviously it had some kind of problem that was preventing it from doing well in OU then, and Bulletproof does not fix that. Shadow Ball is the most used ghost move but it doesn't have such a wide distribution as people think. Gengar, Aegislash, and Alakazam are really the only ones that use it. And a lot of the pokemon that carry Focus Blast for coverage usually have a different attack that deals more damage anyway. For example Char-Y and Thundurus-T/I. Right now most of the arguments being made have little to do with Bulletproof. We might as well be discussing the viability of regular ol Metagross.

...Except that a defensive Pokemon only needs to be able to consistently beat 4-5 Pokemon to be a top-class (A-S rank) defensive asset... Hell, Venusaur doesn't even do that for a single one of the S Rank. Now metagross beats 1 S rank (Aegi) and not only checks but pretty much GUARANTEES a trap/kill on a few A Rank mons. That's more than enough to become an A- or even A-A+ ranked threat. Plus being a good defensive pivot with lots of resistances and that 135 ATK and you got a winner.