Lucario

[Haruno]

tl;dr

luke will have hell getting that set up turn. Subpar defenses is an understatement. 70/88/70 are horrendous defenses. Even neutral hits will hit like a fucking truck. Not to mention that unlike other premier set up sweepers it lacks the speed and the bulk to pull off a sweep. I really don't see the merit in a special lucario despite its dominance in ou.

 

[Noobish]

luke will have hell getting that set up turn. Subpar defenses is an understatement. 70/88/70 are horrendous defenses. Even neutral hits will hit like a fucking truck. Not to mention that unlike other premier set up sweepers it lacks the speed and the bulk to pull off a sweep. I really don't see the merit in a special lucario despite its dominance in ou.

You have to agree, though, that he still poses the threat of setting up. If you get that opportunity, he will dominate, though it may be difficult. However, 4x resistances to Bug and Rock are useful, especially the SR resist. 112 Speed, paired with Adaptability Vacuum Wave, is pretty fast compared to the staple 90-100 speed Ubers we see so often.
It probably doesn't justify carrying a specific counter for Luke alone, but if you are unprepared, you'll still face some opposition.

 

[jim995]

Just no to special Luke. The same shortcomings to physical Luke still apply with no real benefits: impossible to set-up, priority is underwhelming (for sweeping), still walled by standard Uber defensive Poke, etc. Additionally, Aura Sphere is significantly weaker than Close Combat (160 vs. 240 base power after Adaptability in addition to the slightly higher Atk. stat) to the point that certain Adamant E-Killer may not be OHKO'd, and you lose the ability to BP weakened Xerneas to death, major selling points for Luke's use. I would explain further, but I feel numbers would be more useful for this purpose:

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 162-192 (40 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Groudon: 202-238 (50 - 58.9%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 150-178 (29.7 - 35.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 6 SpD Giratina: 158-186 (31.3 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 488-576 (113.2 - 133.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 316-376 (73.3 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 150-178 (36 - 42.7%) -- 95.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Lugia: 120-142 (28.8 - 34.1%) -- 98.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

The list goes on... but overall, you're hitting only marginally or not even harder with Special Luke; the only main upside is the Flash Cannon accuracy advantage over Iron Tail (which I admit, I cannot ignore... da hax).

Anyway, for lol's in actual battles I've played, I couldn't resist:

252 Atk Arceus Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 6 Def Mega Lucario: 228-270 (81.1 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Zekrom Outrage vs. 0 HP / 6 Def Mega Lucario: 198-234 (70.4 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Those surprised (and angry) comments by my opponents...

 

[Noobish]

Just no to special Luke. The same shortcomings to physical Luke still apply with no real benefits: impossible to set-up, priority is underwhelming (for sweeping), still walled by standard Uber defensive Poke, etc. Additionally, Aura Sphere is significantly weaker than Close Combat (180 vs. 240 base power after Adaptability in addition to the slightly higher Atk. stat) to the point that certain Adamant E-Killer may not be OHKO'd, and you lose the ability to BP weakened Xerneas to death, major selling points for Luke's use. I would explain further, but I feel numbers would be more useful for this purpose:

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 162-192 (40 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Groudon: 202-238 (50 - 58.9%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 150-178 (29.7 - 35.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 6 SpD Giratina: 158-186 (31.3 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 488-576 (113.2 - 133.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 316-376 (73.3 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 150-178 (36 - 42.7%) -- 95.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Lugia: 120-142 (28.8 - 34.1%) -- 98.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

The list goes on... but overall, you're hitting only marginally or not even harder with Special Luke; the only main upside is the Flash Cannon accuracy advantage over Iron Tail (which I admit, I cannot ignore... da hax).

Anyway, for lol's in actual battles I've played, I couldn't resist:

252 Atk Arceus Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 6 Def Mega Lucario: 228-270 (81.1 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Zekrom Outrage vs. 0 HP / 6 Def Mega Lucario: 198-234 (70.4 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Those surprised (and angry) comments by my opponents...

Firstly, to get Iron Tail you must complete a Sinnoh Tale, which means that getting a perfect IV Luke is out of the question.
I do see your point; good thing I bred both variants. But, I guess the debate is pure power over reliable, consistent damage. The physical set is limited in options, where the special set is limited in sheer damage output. I am still going special tho, unless further battles prove otherwise. Just need Pokebank to open and we'll have to see.

 

[jim995]

Firstly, to get Iron Tail you must complete a Sinnoh Tale, which means that getting a perfect IV Luke is out of the question.
I do see your point; good thing I bred both variants. But, I guess the debate is pure power over reliable, consistent damage. The physical set is limited in options, where the special set is limited in sheer damage output. I am still going special tho, unless further battles prove otherwise. Just need Pokebank to open and we'll have to see.

I'm pretty sure Iron Tail was TM-able in HGSS or something; I'm gonna have to look at that. Anyway, PS is a simulator, so it doesn't matter too much.

I would argue that both sets are rather one-dimensional. However, the physical-set has a few nifty perks to choose from, for one can run Stone Edge to lure Ho-oh (that accuracy still, but...), EQ for Aegislash, Crunch over Iron Tail for accuracy (you miss out on Xerneas, but...), and two priority options (BP for Xerneas or Espeed for general use, as Espeed essentially hits all the same targets as Vacuum wave with the exception of Arceus formes, which priority fails to kill in either case). (Who am I kidding... it is a bit of a stretch, but that does not change the fact that special Luke removes the only real reasons to use Luke in the first place).

 

[nmitchell890]

Definitely physical > special for Mega-Lucario in Ubers.

 

[Jps101]

Lucario is just going to struggle in Ubers... It's going to eventually be phased out and never used. Which is a shame as it can be a good Pokemon in the right situation... It just doesn't have the bulk to set up :/

 

[Aquaslash]

It was already stupidly hard to even set up in OU, but with things like Reshiram, Groudon, and Blaziken out there, you can forget it. I'd even say it's a waste of a mega with options like the Mewtwos, Gengar, and Kangaskhan available.

 

[Chompjil]

It was already stupidly hard to even set up in OU, but with things like Reshiram, Groudon, and Blaziken out there, you can forget it. I'd even say it's a waste of a mega with options like the Mewtwos, Gengar, and Kangaskhan available.

Yes Blaziken will hurt it, two SD users in Ubers, one with Speed Boost the other with adaptability with fairly similar movesets, but Blaziken has the upper hand as it's two STABs are SE against luke

 

[Mahmudkipz]

I am an absolute noob at Ubers, but seeing as Blaziken carries Low Kick over Hi Jump Kick as Stab, should Lucario do the same? Mega Lucario is't as light as Blaziken but he is still pretty light compared to most other Ubers

 

[MMII]

There's no point in comparing Lucario to Blaziken when they are two very different mons. Sure, Blaziken is generally superior but Lucario's niche is that he hits harder without having to boost and has useful priority options and a diverse movepool. It can be more useful at hit-and-run and shouldn't really bother with SD that much.

Blaziken uses Low Kick because it doesn't have Close Combat. Low Kick at its best only hits as hard as Close Combat. The defense drops aren't an issue with something so fragile. Also, Low Kick i damage is based only on the targets weight not the user's.

 

[Mahmudkipz]

There's no point in comparing Lucario to Blaziken when they are two very different mons. Sure, Blaziken is generally superior but Lucario's niche is that he hits harder without having to boost and has useful priority options and a diverse movepool. It can be more useful at hit-and-run and shouldn't really bother with SD that much.

Blaziken uses Low Kick because it doesn't have Close Combat. Low Kick at its best only hits as hard as Close Combat. The defense drops aren't an issue with something so fragile. Also, Low Kick i damage is based only on the targets weight not the user's.

Oh no, I am comparing them only because they are light-weighted compared to most other big boys in Ubers, even though he is a bit heavier than Blaziken.

 

[Haruno]

Oh no, I am comparing them only because they are light-weighted compared to most other big boys in Ubers, even though he is a bit heavier than Blaziken.

Blaziken has godly speed
Blaziken has better stab moves
Blaziken can realistically set up.

 

[ChaosNemesis]

80bp moves from this thing aren't going to hurt in uber. You have to go to +2 to do something and you won't do it so easily with that poor bulk.

 

[Noobish]

Looking back on my posts, yeah, I failed horribly.
But on the bright side, unboosted Jolly Close Combats HIT HARDER THAN CB GROUDON (!)
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Water: 198-234 (44.6 - 52.8%) -- 22.7% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Groudon Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Water: 190-225 (42.8 - 50.7%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO

 

[heritage]

Looking back on my posts, yeah, I failed horribly.
But on the bright side, unboosted Jolly Close Combats HIT HARDER THAN CB GROUDON (!)
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Water: 198-234 (44.6 - 52.8%) -- 22.7% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Groudon Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Water: 190-225 (42.8 - 50.7%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO

Only issue I see here is that CC is a stronger move than Earthquake...

 

[Noobish]

Only issue I see here is that CC is a stronger move than Earthquake...

The point is, Lucario outpaces just about the entire physical attacking side of Ubers, with the possible exception of Rayquaza, who must use V-Create (those stat drops mean you pretty much have to switch out) and Outrage (let's get locked into an attack that gives Fairies a free turn!) on top of a Choice Band (or a Swords Dance/Dragon Dance) to deal more raw damage. Of course, Rayquaza has more bulk and a slightly stronger E-Speed but is slower. Much slower, though D-Dance helps.
Thus, the two are more or less tied for the top physical slot in my opinion.

 

[Haruno]

The point is, Lucario outpaces just about the entire physical attacking side of Ubers, with the possible exception of Rayquaza, who must use V-Create (those stat drops mean you pretty much have to switch out) and Outrage (let's get locked into an attack that gives Fairies a free turn!) on top of a Choice Band (or a Swords Dance/Dragon Dance) to deal more raw damage. Of course, Rayquaza has more bulk and a slightly stronger E-Speed but is slower. Much slower, though D-Dance helps.
Thus, the two are more or less tied for the top physical slot in my opinion.

Rayquaza is bad in the current metagame, er maybe bad's a bad word, harder to use sounds better.
Lucario has nonexistent bulk. Slow as shit (outsped by mewtwos, darkrai, skymin, ARCEUS, scarfers) for a mon that's designed to sweep teams is simply a bad quality.
Lucario is strong but not strong enough, lucario is ohko'd by pretty much any half decent attack in the tier which is a problem considering uber mons are fat as fuck and can more than likely take a hit considering bulky offense is king.
Honestly I don't see any reason to use lucario when you have the superior option in blaziken who has better stabs + better ability + better bulk.

 

[Hack]

Honestly I don't see any reason to use lucario when you have the superior option in blaziken who has better stabs + better ability + better bulk.

-Bullet Punch does 50ish % to GeoXerneas
-Checks non-Jolly Ekiller

There are still two very nice things it has going for it, just try to utilize them in the best way possible.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

This thing is the king of sticky web teams, it clean 6-0s any team without a lugia/giratina(yes ik they are mandatory ekiller counters)

 

[The Legend Waker]

It was already stupidly hard to even set up in OU, but with things like Reshiram, Groudon, and Blaziken out there, you can forget it. I'd even say it's a waste of a mega with options like the Mewtwos, Gengar, and Kangaskhan available.

I sure wish Gen 7 would hurry up and allow all pokemon to Megavolve so M-Luke's viability will go up...