I randomly picked a pokemon that didn't resist either flying or dark just to compare the damage outputs.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Pokémon Talonflame
- Thread starter TaBuu
- Start date
- Status
Choice Band Talonflame is the nightmare of Pokemon. Flare Blitz/BB hit just about everything in OU extremely hard 2HKO'ing just about everything. Here are some statements of it's power:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 392-464 (107.6 - 127.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 153-180 (43.2 - 50.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 334-394 (84.7 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
What Talonflame does in a nutshell is just spam Brave Birds until something that comes up walls it, or until it dies. All teams should be prepared for this thing, ripping through Mega Venusaur in one hit is not something you want to mess with. The best counter you can find are Stealth Rocks (duh), Azumarill or ScarfDrill are the best mons I can think of. Lets look at this for one second:
ScarfDrill outruns Talonflame's Flare Blitz, and can take a BB and OHKO back with Rock Slide.
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 177-209 (48.8 - 57.7%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 492-580 (165.1 - 194.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I highly doubt this will increase Excadrill population though, Stealth Rocks is much safer and better, as Azumarill does not need to waste an important item slot to defeat Talonflame.
Back onto Topic, we all already know that Talonflame is stupidly powerful, but it's main downfall is it's attack. Having only slighly over 80 is BAD in this Meta-Game. Needing Choice Band or a Swords Dance up to do real damage is not something a Pokemon would want in this tier. Any pokemon that can outspeed and resist/live a BB usually can destroy TFlame's dreams. Overall, Talonflame gets a 8/10, just because of it's downright bad attack.
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 392-464 (107.6 - 127.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 153-180 (43.2 - 50.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 334-394 (84.7 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
What Talonflame does in a nutshell is just spam Brave Birds until something that comes up walls it, or until it dies. All teams should be prepared for this thing, ripping through Mega Venusaur in one hit is not something you want to mess with. The best counter you can find are Stealth Rocks (duh), Azumarill or ScarfDrill are the best mons I can think of. Lets look at this for one second:
ScarfDrill outruns Talonflame's Flare Blitz, and can take a BB and OHKO back with Rock Slide.
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 177-209 (48.8 - 57.7%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 492-580 (165.1 - 194.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I highly doubt this will increase Excadrill population though, Stealth Rocks is much safer and better, as Azumarill does not need to waste an important item slot to defeat Talonflame.
Back onto Topic, we all already know that Talonflame is stupidly powerful, but it's main downfall is it's attack. Having only slighly over 80 is BAD in this Meta-Game. Needing Choice Band or a Swords Dance up to do real damage is not something a Pokemon would want in this tier. Any pokemon that can outspeed and resist/live a BB usually can destroy TFlame's dreams. Overall, Talonflame gets a 8/10, just because of it's downright bad attack.
It does work in a way, if you really hate Tyranitar, Heatran.
Here are some calcs
+2 252+ Atk Liechi Berry Talonflame Natural Gift (100 BP Grass) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rotom-W: 264-312 (86.8 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Salac Berry Talonflame Natural Gift (100 BP Fighting) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 324-384 (80.1 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Salac Berry Talonflame Natural Gift (100 BP Fighting) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 332-392 (86 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
It honestly though, is a waste of an item. Choice Banded BB or SD BB is the way to go. Natural Gift won't be doing much other than just wasting an item and moveslot, you can sometimes not even OHKO with a 2+ up! TFlame shouldn't be staying in on them, just go out. In my opinion, Natural Gift is a horrible set to use.
Talonflame's attack isn't bad, its just mediocre. Never underestimate a banded bb or a +2 itemless acro.
80 Base in OU is very weak (Worse than Slowbro's Special Attack!), it's strength is solely based on Brave Bird's Base Power. Compared to all the other Base Attack powers in the A rank, Talonflame has something to dream for.
Also, if SR didn't exist, I'm sure he might banned to Ubers, with priority brave bird and roost.
Nah, the fact that literally every rock pokemon walls it would be enough to keep it in OU. Additionally, Banded Tyranitar takes nothing from any of its moves (besides the extremely rare fighting natural gift) and can OHKO with pursuit. And that's not to mention Rotom-W and Heatran.
Last edited:
I'm always scared to switch my Tyranitar (252 HP / 24 Atk / 224 SDef / 8 Spd; Brave Nature; Leftovers) into Talonflame unless I'm sure that it is Choice-locked into Flare Blitz or Brave Bird. U-Turn hurts a lot, with or without Choice Band, and also lets my opponent send in a good match-up to force Tyranitar out again.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Talonflame U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 265-315 (65.5 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Talonflame U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 133-159 (32.9 - 39.3%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 154-182 (45.1 - 53.3%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO
If you can get Tyranitar in safely, then yes, it can threaten to KO Talonflame. However, if Talonflame U-turns out as it switches in then TTar is put in a very bad spot. Most Talonflame (especially CB sets) will spam U-turn early game to try to get rid of potential checks and counters.
Why would you have U-turn on a swords dance set, and why is life orb on the set at all? With life orb talonflame dies way to fast to do any actual damage, as its pathetic bulk doesn't allow much room to try to use roost.
For choice band Talonflame, all you have to do is come in on a brave bird or flare blitz and Tyranitar check mates it. Since you know it will spam U-turn early in the match, don't blindly send it in until later on.
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch (Pursuit on Switch) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 292-345 (97.9 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Considering sand and recoil damage, this is pretty much a guaranteed OHKO.
Don't get me wrong, Talonflame is still an amazing pokemon, Tyranitar just hard counters it if well played.
U-Turn on SD sets is literally for TTar. Talonflame has so many chances to set up an SD that it can afford to run U-Turn. Talonflame's job is to revenge kill, spam shit, then die. Life Orb is viable as Talonflame is going to die quickly anyway. As long as you can keep rocks off your side of the field, you can afford to run LO.
If you're going to go out of the way to get past Tyranitar, you might as well use fighting natural gift, as that can get past heatran. With 78/71/69 defenses and bad defensive typing, Talonflame doesn't want to have to set up repeatedly. Talonflame only really gets the opportunity to set up swords dance easily the first time, when people predict a banded brave bird or flare blitz.
With everything in the S-B rank that Talonflame threatens, I don't think it has any problem setting up on the switch. As cool as I think Natural Gift Talonflame is, I think Liechi berry for grass is the only good lure set it can pull off. Heatran is probably the only Pokemon in OU that most Talonflame sets can't touch. However, it can still U-Turn out to a counter. U-Turn is just such a great move on TFlame in the same way Volt Switch is a good move on Rotom-W; you can't pin it down with things that should check/counter...as long as you keep rocks of the field.
No, 81 Atk is quite bad. What makes Talonflame so good is that it has the fastest and most powerful priority attack in OU, and something like that is simply the bane of offensive teams. Against defensive/stall teams, however, its priority hardly matters, and naturally bulky things like Hippowdon and Mandibuzz can generally stomach its attacks without much issue.
Talonflame isn't some absurdly hard hitting Pokemon that tears down walls; rather, it appears stronger than it actually is when used properly since offensive Pokemon are generally not that bulky, and those are the types that Talonflame has a field day against.
Talonflame isn't some absurdly hard hitting Pokemon that tears down walls; rather, it appears stronger than it actually is when used properly since offensive Pokemon are generally not that bulky, and those are the types that Talonflame has a field day against.
Last edited:
That facility does deserve a mention. I run a support Talonflame in tandem with a dual intimidate core. It works as an exceptional switch in from Manectric in particular, due to complementary typing, and The Man's common switch ins; I'm thinking MegaVenusaur and Chansey. Talon has situational synergy with Landorus as a switch in, but generally has better success running to it via u turn after setting up tailwind/wisp/taunt.
A reliable water resist/immunity helps stick these guys together; I've had success with Gastrodon, who helps spread status. Tentacruel is also an option, being a solid MegaVenu switch-in.
The intimidate strategy also aided with my Bulk Up Talonflame runs, as both members of the average intimidate core put serious pressure on Heatran, and after some wear and tear, Tran does not enjoy a +1 Brave Bird, which is easy to obtain, since they often set down rocks in anticipation for the switch.
I haven't seen many ancient-power Heatrans like I was a few weeks ago (might be my ladder position), so it makes a decent case for letting a more durable Talonflame stay in, at least on occasion.
You know, I find this amusingly ironic, since the vice versa can be true: Heatran w/o Rock moves is one of the prime setup fodders for Bulk Up + Taunt Talonflame.
252 SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 184+ SpD Talonflame: 96-113 (26.74 - 31.47%) -- possible 4HKO
252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 184+ SpD Roosting Talonflame: 192-228 (53.48 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 248 HP / 184+ SpD Talonflame: 53-63 (14.76 - 17.54%) -- 9HKO at best
Last edited:
Minor nitpick, you want to put uneven hp ev's on Talon, so that if you have to switch into rocks you are at 51% health.
248 HP EVs put Talonflame at 359 HP. That is why I didn't put max HP.
I use the same thing, but with Roost instead of wow. My team has no spinners so healing is necessary.
Taunt on Talonflame is very effective. It's one of the fastest taunters in the metagame, and no one expects it. It trolls physical walls such as Gliscor hard. The opponent thinks they can deal with Talonflame as long as they send in something bulky, and suddenly they are taunted.
Oh, miscalculated, my bad. Any how, uneven ev's are important for any poke weak to rocks.
You do want some hp ev's, so go with the latter.
- Status