Victim of the Week: Ubers Edition

Hey, let's attempt to put some substance into posts. A FULL set and a brief description. Format it like a PS! importable. Thanks you!

Please do, I just went through and deleted a bunch of posts because they had no substance in them whatsoever. This thread is supposed to be helpful since newer players especially may not know how to check the manly titans of Ubers, and it has potential to be a good resource.

I don't want this thread to slide completely into the trash so from now on I want to see:

-A bit of substance (what can the check can switch in on, how does it beat the Pokemon in question, how reliable is the check, what kinds of teams does the check fit on, what sets/moves would the check struggle with)
-Pokemon that are actually viable (NOT Shedinja, Rhydon, or Rotom-W c'mon guys)

If your post doesn't meet these criteria from now on it will be subject to deletion. I'll start us off with an example:

dont do water arc (by itself)

Arceus-Water @ Splash Plate
Nature: Timid
Evs: 252 HP / 160 SDef / 96 Spd
- Judgment
- Will-O-Wisp / Grass Knot
- Recover
- Defog

Water Arceus is a good soft check since it can tank Kyogre's Water attacks/Ice Beam and hit it with burn/GK. However, you shouldn't rely on Water Arceus by itself to beat Kyogre as it is weak to Thunder and cannot take repeated full HP Water Spouts too well if hazards are up, so if you want to use Water Arceus you need some way to weaken Spout (hazards or offensive pressure), something to take Thunders (Grounds), and/or another soft check (Ferrothorn, Dialga, Zekrom). It's not a bad check, but it shouldn't be the only one to use if you want to be secure against the big blue whale.
 
Arceus-Grass @ Meadow Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 96 Spd / 160 SDef
Timid Nature
- Judgment / Grass Knot
- Earth Power / Earthquake / Stone Edge / Toxic / Will-o-Wisp / Thunder Wave / Payback (Fck goth)
- Recover
- Stealth Rock / Defog / Toxic / Will-o-Wisp /Thunder Wave

One of best Ogre check in meta. It serves as a standalone check while providing invaluable team utility. Ice beam from ogre hurts yes, but you can simply recover it and repeat until your opponent mispredicts, and then you can capitalize on that with various options. Basically, wait until you get a turn where opponent attacks with thunder/water then you just judgment/gk it to death. Note: grassceus is very vulnerable to Ho-Oh and Gengar, but you can choose the coverage move to handle one of them. Choosing judgment over grass knot eases on the Gengar issue, since Judgment+Earth power kills, while GK+EP doesn't. However, GK+EQ have a small chance of killing Gengar, and eq is quite bad on everything else tho.
 
Complete counter here we go:

Gastrodon @ Leftovers
252Hp 252SDef 4Satk
Recover
Toxic
Scald
Earth power

Since his first appearence this mon has been Kyogre's nemesis as she can't do sh1t to it (exept freeze hax) and gets toxicated back.
Outside at walling Kyogre and sometimes spread a lil bit of poison this thing has no other purpose.
 
There's very few SR setters that are not Ogre bait. I only can think of Dialga, Grassceus, and Waterceus for this purpose.

In my opinion, it's not worth running SR instead of one of its support moves, if you don't use Will-O-Wisp or any status move rather you become setup bait for a lot of pokemon and if you try to use SR instead of one of Grasseus' attack moves to beat one of its checks (Stone Edge for Ho-Oh or Earthquake for Mega Gengar, both great examples), the set is really incomplete and again, you end up being bait for a lot of pokemon, mono grass is not that great of a set.

(that's why I don't like running Defog on grass either)
 
There's very few SR setters that are not Ogre bait. I only can think of Dialga, Grassceus, and Waterceus for this purpose.

Using an SR user that also happens to be your counter to Kyogre is sadly disruptive in itself. Getting SR up requires a free turn, and therefore the SR user needs to make itself those turns by checking specific threats that you can gain time on. Kyogre is not one of those threats- it almost 2HKOs Grassceus on the switch with a scarfed Water Spout- setting SR on it will be nigh impossible. Look at some common SR users: Landorous-T, Groudon, Deoxys-S and A, Dialga etc. Lando-T and Groudon function similarly as they set up SR on threats they get free turns on (Zekrom, other Groudon, Aegislash are some examples), Deoxys formes are fast and sashed, and create their free turns by force and speed while Dialga is similar to Groudon and Lando-T, but sets SR up on support Arceus mostly. Also, your use of the word "bait" is also incorrect. Bait refers to free switch ins- Kyogre will not like switching in on an Earthquake from Lando-T. Yes, it might get one free switch in when you set SR, but you are always using a Kyogre check. Bait is when you have absolutely nothing that scares a possible switch in, see non SE grassceus vs Ho-oh etc. Furthermore, Grassceus has an awful lot of opportunity cost in itself by being a stupid mon that Gengar likes to kill, however, you are not helping yourself by strapping your ability to handle other things (Scizor, Ho-oh, Aegishit, Blaze) by wasting a slot on SR when there are many better SR users available. Lastly, you still need to fit countermeasures against entry hazards somewhere on your team anyway, so not having it on arguably the best user (not as in forme, but as Arceus as a whole) limits teambuilding to subpar mons (Giratina formes) or subpar user of defog (Scizor, who can carry it in an emergency on a team not particularly concerned with entry hazards).
 
Ludicolo @ Leftovers
Nature: Calm
Ability: Rain Dish
Evs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd
- Substitute
- Protect
- Leech Seed
- Scald / Grass Knot / Giga Drain / Hydro Pump / Toxic / whatever

I am aware Furai has just said to get slashes right but it really doesn't matter what Ludicolo uses. If it chooses Grass Knot it will have the best match-up against Kyogre but Kyogre will probably never win against this thing (unless its at <40% HP or something and Ogre uses Thunder).

Ludicolo can run a Substitute Leech Seed set that Kyogre will always have trouble wearing down. It essentially can't be worn down in rain, can setup a Leech Seed, and regain back all its HP it lost by the end of a turn. In fact, its pretty hard for Kyogre to switch out without letting Ludicolo get a Substitute up. Kyogre's strongest attack against this thing, Thunder, will fail to 3HKO when it wears Choice Specs. With that being said it can be seen how easy this does against the Choice Scarf set.

For reference, here's a calculation with a Kyogre struggling to break the great Ludicolo.

252+ SpA Kyogre Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ludicolo: 106-125 (29.1 - 34.3%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Rain Dish recovery and Leftovers recovery

Factoring Protect the damage Ludicolo will take in Rain from Thunder is about 5-10%. After Leech Seed Ludicolo will be gaining rather then loosing HP.

While Ludicolo's utility outside of rain may remain questionable, its probably the only thing that can never fail to stop Kyogre.

Arceus-Grass @ Meadow Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 96 Spd / 160 SDef
Timid Nature
- Judgment / Grass Knot
- Earth Power / Earthquake / Stone Edge / Toxic / Will-o-Wisp / Thunder Wave / Payback (Fck goth)
- Recover
- Stealth Rock / Defog / Toxic / Will-o-Wisp /Thunder Wave / Light Screen

Because you know, Light Screen makes it officially impossible for Kyogre (even Specs Ice Beam won't break it!) to ever break Grass Arceus. Yeah its got four moveslot syndrome. Yeah it lets it potentially beat Mega Gengar :P.
 
Ludicolo @ Leftovers
Nature: Calm
Ability: Rain Dish
Evs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd
- Substitute
- Protect
- Leech Seed
- Scald / Grass Knot / Giga Drain / Hydro Pump / Toxic / whatever

I am aware Furai has just said to get slashes right but it really doesn't matter what Ludicolo uses. If it chooses Grass Knot it will have the best match-up against Kyogre but Kyogre will probably never win against this thing (unless its at <40% HP or something and Ogre uses Thunder).

Ludicolo can run a Substitute Leech Seed set that Kyogre will always have trouble wearing down. It essentially can't be worn down in rain, can setup a Leech Seed, and regain back all its HP it lost by the end of a turn. In fact, its pretty hard for Kyogre to switch out without letting Ludicolo get a Substitute up. Kyogre's strongest attack against this thing, Thunder, will fail to 3HKO when it wears Choice Specs. With that being said it can be seen how easy this does against the Choice Scarf set.

For reference, here's a calculation with a Kyogre struggling to break the great Ludicolo.

252+ SpA Kyogre Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ludicolo: 106-125 (29.1 - 34.3%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Rain Dish recovery and Leftovers recovery

Factoring Protect the damage Ludicolo will take in Rain from Thunder is about 5-10%. After Leech Seed Ludicolo will be gaining rather then loosing HP.

While Ludicolo's utility outside of rain may remain questionable, its probably the only thing that can never fail to stop Kyogre.



Because you know, Light Screen makes it officially impossible for Kyogre (even Specs Ice Beam won't break it!) to ever break Grass Arceus. Yeah its got four moveslot syndrome. Yeah it lets it potentially beat Mega Gengar :P.

quick nitpick

>claims to stop specs ogre
>shows calcs without specs

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ludicolo: 158-187 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Rain Dish recovery and Leftovers recovery

So in theory it can't "safely" switchin since it is still 3hko'd and parahax might ensue or whatnot BUT after leech seed then ogre fails to do anything, until then it suffers approx 18-26% damage per turn after healing. Though it is a very solid check undoubtedly. Lord Shedinja is still the best. It beats scarf ogre 100% tho QQ. Scarfsux anyways so no worries.
 
Haruno , Protect prevents the 3HKO.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ludicolo: 158-187 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Rain Dish recovery and Leftovers recovery

100 - 51.3 + 12.5 + 12.5 = 73.7

73.7 - 51.3 + 12.5(2) + (12.5)(Kyogre's HP) > 51.3%

If needed Ludicolo has a decent chance of PP stalling out Kyogre's Thunders given they don't get maximum rolls by spamming Substitute and Protect.

Yeah the probability of getting paralyzed is high but Ludicolo has a 1-(.7)(.25) or .83 ish chance of getting screwed that badly that quickly. Its not that bad but its still pretty bad.

The lord Shedinja is too awesome for this thread to handle and has issues with Stealth Rock. Admittedly Ludicolo is also useless if Toxic Spikes are up so...
 
Someone who can hurt Kyogre hard enough to leave it vulnerable to a faster teammate/Priority attack is Kabutops who can target Kyogre's meh Defense stat and also takes advantage of Kyogre's weather.

252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 234-277 (68.4 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That being said you lose your weather sweeper and you might also miss with Stone Edge. The set I calced was Life Orb Adamant which is fairly standard.

Kabutops @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge
- Waterfall
- Low Kick
- Swords Dance

With the Gen 6 weather nerf though I'd say we should look at some pokemon who are less dependent on rain (who still like to take advantage of it.)

Something I ran on my later Gen 5 teams that I loved was ScarfAlga. Most Dialga sets were support at the time so it really caused some surprise which I'm a fan of.

252+ SpA Dialga Thunder vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre: 220-260 (64.3 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Standard Scarf set, I run Modest > Timid for more damage.

And then the OU Wallbreaker: Band Terrakion.
252+ Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 351-414 (102.6 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Capable of outspeeding max speed non scarf Ogre's (Adamant Terrakion: 315 | Timid Kyogre: 306) Adamant Terrakion will get the guaranteed OHKO on 4/0 Kyogre. Makes for great cleanup on bulky Kyogre too:
252+ Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 351-414 (86.8 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
And:
252+ Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 351-414 (86.8 - 102.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Terrakion @ Choice Band
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- X-Scissor

I never did run Band Terrak in Ubers, but I did run Expert Belt (with Taunt to screw Over Giratina-O) and Scarf Terrak who loves cleaning up. This guy really can do damage in Ubers and is a definite favorite of mine.
 
Someone who can hurt Kyogre hard enough to leave it vulnerable to a faster teammate/Priority attack is Kabutops who can target Kyogre's meh Defense stat and also takes advantage of Kyogre's weather.

252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 234-277 (68.4 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That being said you lose your weather sweeper and you might also miss with Stone Edge. The set I calced was Life Orb Adamant which is fairly standard.

Kabutops @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge
- Waterfall
- Low Kick
- Swords Dance

With the Gen 6 weather nerf though I'd say we should look at some pokemon who are less dependent on rain (who still like to take advantage of it.)

Something I ran on my later Gen 5 teams that I loved was ScarfAlga. Most Dialga sets were support at the time so it really caused some surprise which I'm a fan of.

252+ SpA Dialga Thunder vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre: 220-260 (64.3 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Standard Scarf set, I run Modest > Timid for more damage.

And then the OU Wallbreaker: Band Terrakion.
252+ Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 351-414 (102.6 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Capable of outspeeding max speed non scarf Ogre's (Adamant Terrakion: 315 | Timid Kyogre: 306) Adamant Terrakion will get the guaranteed OHKO on 4/0 Kyogre. Makes for great cleanup on bulky Kyogre too:
252+ Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 351-414 (86.8 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
And:
252+ Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 351-414 (86.8 - 102.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Terrakion @ Choice Band
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- X-Scissor

I never did run Band Terrak in Ubers, but I did run Expert Belt (with Taunt to screw Over Giratina-O) and Scarf Terrak who loves cleaning up. This guy really can do damage in Ubers and is a definite favorite of mine.

You forgot to mention Croogre js.
 
I apologize if my earlier response to Choice Band Ho-Oh was inadequate. Let's take a good look at some ways of dealing with Scarf Koygre:

Palkia
484.png

water.gif
dragon.gif

Abilities: Pressure / Telepathy
Base Stats: 90 HP / 120 Atk / 100 Def / 150 SAtk / 120 SDef / 100 Spd

Perhaps the premier answer to Kyogre this generation, Palkia has always been able to comfortably absorb Kyogre's Water attacks, and tank it's other attacking options, usually Thunder and Ice Beam.

Generally, Palkia will run something like this:

Palkia @ Assault Vest/Lustrous Orb/Choice Specs/Choice Scarf/Other
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Spacial Rend
- Thunder/Thunderbolt
- Surf/Hydro Pump
- Flamethrower/Fire Blast

Palkia's typing, and wonderful base stats allow it to do many things. It can tank a hit and outspeed Scarf Kyogre if it wears a Choice Scarf of its own and fire off a Thunder. It can tank a hit and fire off extreme damage if it puts on a pair of Choice Specs and uses Thunder/Spacial Rend. it can do strong damage if it wields a Lustrous orb, tanks a hit and attacks. And finally new to this generation, it can absorb an attack with much greater ease and fire back an attack if it wears an Assault Vest. When you throw in Palkia's amazing coverage, speed, and power, Palkia is not only a Kyogre check, but a Pokemon which can glue your team together and provide tremendous offensive pressure and wall breaking prowess.

All of these scenarios assume Palkia merely switches into Kyogre at any point in the game. If Palkia is switched in at full health, say after Kyogre gets a KO, it will almost always beat Scarf Kyogre 1v1. Each set can do prominent damage to Scarf Kyogre at the cost of around 30% of health per non-water. 'Ogre attack. Alas, Palkia is not without its share of weaknesses. Chief among them is Palkia's lack of reliable HP recovery, as well as how much Palkia loathes being hit by Thunder, and then the thunder causing Paralysis. Also notable is Palkia being unable to resist powerful Dragon and Fairy attacks from a teammate of Scarf Kyogre e.g. Xerneas.

Still, if you're looking for an all-around Kyogre check, Scarf or No scarf, Palkia should be top on an Uber player's list.


Another interesting Scarf Kyogre/general Kyogre check is Arceus Electric:


Arceus-Electric
493-electric.png

electric.gif

Abilities: Multitype
Item: Zap Plate
Base Stats: 120 HP / 120 Atk / 120 Def / 120 SAtk / 120 SDef / 120 Spd

Arceus Electric can serve as both a Kyogre check and overall support, having base 120 stats across the board, a wide movepool, and a powerful STAB option in Judgement. It's resistant to the Water and Electric moves that Kyogre dishes out, netting it many opportunities to come in on the leviathan.

Because it will be unable to outspeed Scarf Kyogre, perhaps the best way to outright win against ScarfOgre would be to run a set like this:

Arceus-Electric @ Zap Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd or SDef or HP/ 4 in anything else.
Timid Nature
- Judgement
- Ice Beam
- Calm Mind
- Recover

Because of Electriceus' uniform base 120 stats, you're free to put EVs into whatever you think is best. However, Calm Mind + Recover lets Arceus-Electric not only switch into Kyogre and attack, but also set up or heal itself. Pseudo bolt/beam coverage lets this Pokemon also do a sizable amount of damage to just about any switch-in, and net a trainer quite a bit of offensive pressure. You can even replace one or more of the moves above with utility moves like Defog, Will-o-Wisp, Roar, or Toxic. Truly, Arceus-Electrics's resistances, stats, versatility, utility, and more let it be one of the most interesting choices for facing Scarf Kyogre, or Kyogre in general.
 
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252 SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Electric in Rain: 351-414 (79 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Arceus-Electric is kind of a meh check since it can't switch on on Kyogre's STAB but it can force it out if it gets in on Ice Beam/Thunder.
 
I apologize if my earlier response to Choice Band Ho-Oh was inadequate. Let's take a good look at some ways of dealing with Scarf Koygre:

Palkia
484.png

water.gif
dragon.gif

Abilities: Pressure / Telepathy
Base Stats: 90 HP / 120 Atk / 100 Def / 150 SAtk / 120 SDef / 100 Spd

Perhaps the premier answer to Kyogre this generation, Palkia has always been able to comfortably absorb Kyogre's Water attacks, and tank it's other attacking options, usually Thunder and Ice Beam.

Generally, Palkia will run something like this:

Palkia @ Assault Vest/Lustrous Orb/Choice Specs/Choice Scarf/Other
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Spacial Rend
- Thunder/Thunderbolt
- Surf/Hydro Pump
- Flamethrower/Fire Blast

Palkia's typing, and wonderful base stats allow it to do many things. It can tank a hit and outspeed Scarf Kyogre if it wears a Choice Scarf of its own and fire off a Thunder. It can tank a hit and fire off extreme damage if it puts on a pair of Choice Specs and uses Thunder/Spacial Rend. it can do strong damage if it wields a Lustrous orb, tanks a hit and attacks. And finally new to this generation, it can absorb an attack with much greater ease and fire back an attack if it wears an Assault Vest. When you throw in Palkia's amazing coverage, speed, and power, Palkia is not only a Kyogre check, but a Pokemon which can glue your team together and provide tremendous offensive pressure and wall breaking prowess.

All of these scenarios assume Palkia merely switches into Kyogre at any point in the game. If Palkia is switched in at full health, say after Kyogre gets a KO, it will almost always beat Scarf Kyogre 1v1. Each set can do prominent damage to Scarf Kyogre at the cost of around 30% of health per non-water. 'Ogre attack. Alas, Palkia is not without its share of weaknesses. Chief among them is Palkia's lack of reliable HP recovery, as well as how much Palkia loathes being hit by Thunder, and then the thunder causing Paralysis. Also notable is Palkia being unable to resist powerful Dragon and Fairy attacks from a teammate of Scarf Kyogre e.g. Xerneas.

Still, if you're looking for an all-around Kyogre check, Scarf or No scarf, Palkia should be top on an Uber player's list.


Another interesting Scarf Kyogre/general Kyogre check is Arceus Electric:


Arceus-Electric
493-electric.png

electric.gif

Abilities: Multitype
Item: Zap Plate
Base Stats: 120 HP / 120 Atk / 120 Def / 120 SAtk / 120 SDef / 120 Spd

Arceus Electric can serve as both a Kyogre check and overall support, having base 120 stats across the board, a wide movepool, and a powerful STAB option in Judgement. It's resistant to the Water and Electric moves that Kyogre dishes out, netting it many opportunities to come in on the leviathan.

Because it will be unable to outspeed Scarf Kyogre, perhaps the best way to outright win against ScarfOgre would be to run a set like this:

Arceus-Electric @ Zap Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd or SDef or HP/ 4 in anything else.
Timid Nature
- Judgement
- Ice Beam
- Calm Mind
- Recover

Because of Electriceus' uniform base 120 stats, you're free to put EVs into whatever you think is best. However, Calm Mind + Recover lets Arceus-Electric not only switch into Kyogre and attack, but also set up or heal itself. Pseudo bolt/beam coverage lets this Pokemon also do a sizable amount of damage to just about any switch-in, and net a trainer quite a bit of offensive pressure. You can even replace one or more of the moves above with utility moves like Defog, Will-o-Wisp, Roar, or Toxic. Truly, Arceus-Electrics's resistances, stats, versatility, utility, and more let it be one of the most interesting choices for facing Scarf Kyogre, or Kyogre in general.

I just want to say your post was the best in this thread. ~tis all.
 
Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 8 Spd / 248 SDef
Timid Nature
- Rock Smash
- Knock Off
- Icy Wind
- U-turn

93.7% chance of surviving water spout after SR. Knock Off and U-turn will do 38-45% damage. Tornadus will then gain 1/3 of it's HP back. ta ta
 
Victim of the Week #4The Victim of the Week for week #4 is the creator of Pokemon himself: Arceus. One of the most dominating forces in the Ubers metagame since it's restrictions were lifted Generation 5, Extremekiller Arceus makes a return this Generation preforming much the same role as last: a deadly late-game sweeper and revenge killer.
498.png

Arceus-Normal @ Life Orb
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake
- Shadow Claw
 
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quagsire.gif

Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SAtk (or 4 Atk)
Impish / Bold Nature
- Protect
- Earthquake / Scald
- Toxic
- Recover

This is the best Ekiller counter in the meta. Ekiller cannot touch it while Quagsire recover+protect toxic stalls it to death. Quagsire is also a fantastic Blaziken counter, so that's the other thing going for it. Not much to say about this, except that Ekiller is completely screwed when Quagsire's on field.
 
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