The Science Behind Team Building: An Attempt at Understanding the Gen VI Meta

The Science Behind Team Building: An Attempt at Understanding the Gen VI Meta


For anyone that either is in or has progressed passed High School has come across in Science Class the Scientific Method. This is composed of the following Steps:

Ask A Question: My title subtly asks the question, but to put it into form. With our knowledge that no team is perfect, the goal of building a team is to compose parts that, though individually might be flawed, but combined can exceed almost all challenges. Other factors play into this such as the individual players skill level, hax and such, however; we are interested in obtaining a team that can answer many questions, albeit, not all of them.

“Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence” – Vince Lombardi

Do Background Research: I will not bore everyone with these details as this is an RMT and I would like to get to it sometime today. But for anyone who plays PS, and to a lesser extent Wi-Fi, knows what the major threats are and the sets and such. However, the metagame is a living thing that is every developing and changing. Stall, Hyper Offense, Heavy Offense, on and on we are all striving to gain another 1% of that “edge” that the rest of the Meta seems to be overlooking.

“The search for objective knowledge about competitive Pokémon gameplay” – Definition of Poké-metrics (Term I will copyright and sue for if anyone else uses it :-P)

Construct a Hypothesis: Even though the metagame has been largely defined, will there another shift that can be constructed if the right team were to be constructed that can answer a large portion of the current Meta? Would this team cause a trend similar to SwagPlay? Will it receive as negative a backlash as SwagPlay received and still receives?

Test your Hypothesis: Now we will attempt to construct a team that meets what we are trying to accomplish, eventually leading to a new scientific theory.

The Team:

Stealth Rock Support:



Landorus-I @ Life Orb
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Ability: Sheer Force
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
IVs: 2 Atk
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Psychic
- Stealth Rock


Reasoning: When we think of Ground/Flying Stealth Rock User, we usually think of Landorus-T, affectionately known and Lan-Dog by my buddy Memoric. However, since we are trying to determine the Meta, I have a sincere feeling that Landorous-T, though still a very potent member to any team, seems to have hit a point where many players, especially the Top echelon players, know how to work around him. With that being said, we are playing a little devil’s advocate and assigning Stealth Rock duty to his Incarnate Form. When people see an Incarnate, they are sub-consciously revert to whatever default move they have for facing a powerful special attack aka switch to their Special Defense Wall. With that mindset this set takes advantages of the switches it can force to set up rocks while still very effectively having the absolute firepower necessary to crush any obstacle. The Sheer Force + Life Orb Combo is a monstrosity to deal with and thus, we still have all the prerequisite moves to deal with many threats. EP is its go-to STAB move, HP Ice for ground and flying types, ironically crushing Landorous-T and outspeeding him if the opponent is trying to milk a U-Turn or Knock Off out of this altercation, and Psychic is for Mega Venusaur and Conkeldurr, if Conk has taken enough damage as the AV set does give him more bulk than we would like to deal with. Since Water and Ice Moves are not this guy’s best friend, we will compliment him with the following partner:

Defensive Wall (The Annoyance)



Quagsire @ Leftovers
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Ability: Unaware
Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spe)
- Recover
- Earthquake
- Scald
- Toxic


Reasoning: This guy handles many of the team’s weaknesses; we’ll get to the rest of the team soon; and laughs at set-up users thanks to Unaware. Quagsire may not be the sexy pick; I mean come on… the guy looks like an amphibious version of Ed from Ed, Edd and Eddy. However, this guy has one weakness (Grass) and an Ability that allows him to come in on guys like Talonflame, Bisharp and Clefable and ruin their lives. The set is also pretty standard, with a little reliance on the 30% Burn chance but when it comes to synergy and tanking hits, this guy can take them without showing the slightest bit of pain on his face… either that or he lacks the intelligence to correctly display pain with his facial muscles…

Special Defense Wall (Annoyance 2.0)



Zapdos @ Leftovers
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA/ 252 SpD
Ability: Pressure
Calm Nature (+SpD, -Atk)
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Heat Wave
- Defog
- Volt Switch


Reasoning: If Mega-Venusaur, one of the more prominent Megas in the Meta is going to cause our boy Ed problems, then why not bring out the Thunderbird. We are using the Specially Defensive investment as most people would probably expect the Bold/Modest Set and plan accordingly. It also makes sense to use the Calm Set to Tank Sludge Bombs that M-Venusaur would without a doubt fire his way if the opponent predicts the switch. He is the Hazard Remover of this team and has respectable bulk along with nice recovery. Interesting side bar, Roost changes him from Flying to Normal typing, making for some interesting scenarios in terms of avoiding SE Ice and Rock Attacks. Aside from that, Heat Wave scorches Venusaur while Volt Switch allows us to Pivot when Zap is done Defogging. When he Pivots, I usually like going into:

Defensive Pivot (The Glue)



Scizor @ Assault Vest
EVs: 248 HP / 40 Atk / 220 SpD
Ability: Technician
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Superpower
- U-Turn
- Pursuit


Reasoning: I’ll admit, Scizor is one of my fav mons, but the set does have merit. 220 SpD Scizor with the Assault Vest Boost basically makes his Special Defense the equivalent of a Fully Invested Special Defense Latias. That is not a misprint. He can duplicate one of the best Special Walls around. Then we factor in things like +1 Stab Priority Goodness, Superpower for Bisharp and Chansey/Blissey, Pursuit to trap the Latis and U-Turn for a Pivot and we are looking at a possible scary mon who can either keep the assembly line moving or clean up late if everyone left has been dinged up in advance. Yes, he is 4x weak to Fire but that’s what Quagsire and the next guy are for…

Special Attacker (The Nuke)



“Toaster” (Rotom-Heat) @ Choice Specs
EVs: 208 HP / 252 SpA / 48 Spe
Ability: Levitate
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk
- Overheat
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Trick


Reasoning: If you’re reading this Memoric, then yes, I admit it; this is YOUR very inspirational set and one of the MANY reasons why I liked your team so much. They say that “Imitation is the greatest form of Flattery.” Well considered yourself flattered sir. What is there to say about Trick-Tom. Well a lot actually… Overheat is blessed with slightly better accuracy then is wash form’s Hydro Pump and hits a HELL of a lot harder. Sure the recoil sucks but it’s a Choice set so switching is inherent; more so when the Specs gets Tricked for Lefties (evil thought). HP Ice is for Gliscor and Lando that try to ruin my VoltTurn shenanigans, though if predicted correctly, is hilarious to steal Lando’s Lefties or Choice Scarf. (Muahahaha) But when all is set and done, we want to move on to the main event…

The Mega (The Main Man)



Mawile @ Mawilite
Ability: Intimidate -> Huge Power
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Focus Punch
- Sucker Punch
- Play Rough
- Substitute


Reasoning: Yes, this is the main attraction and when all the crap has been brushed to the side, he comes in and puts in WORK. Heaven Forbid I get behind a Substitute, “I pity a fool” said Mr. T. No but seriously, with Mega-Luke, Mega Gengar and Mega Khan banished to Ubers, it seems that Mawile is just begging to smash some heads. So WHY THE HELL NOT!!! SP and PR are standard for Priority and STAB goodness respectively, and with 3 teammates that can potentially lead into a favorably in-turn switch, well, let’s just say things won’t look too bright for anyone going up against Mawile.

Well that’s the team everybody. The last two steps are:

1. Analyze your Data and Draw a Conclusion: (Most likely will post replays)

2. Communicate Your Results (again replays)

Thank You for all who took the time to read this RMT as I know it is lengthy but I try my best to entertain and be thought provoking in the process. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated and , if applicable, will be used in attempt to study the Meta further.

Sincerely,


Prof. R. Feliciano
Director of Metagame Studies, Smogon University, New York Campus
 
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Hi Raf :) I was wondering when you'd do your own RMT

This team has good synergy and handles all the major threats nicely.
It's assuring to see that you have two answers to that damned MegaSaur. Psychic and Overheat(specs), both do minimum 70%
Nothing stands out to me that can wall or break the team.
I just hate the fact that Smeargle can spore freely and pass a sub, or setup. But that's not a problem in higher ranks

I'll test the team myself and see if I can suggest any changes because I can't find any weak links.
A very solid team!
 
YES... if you can test it I will be more than happy to see it in action.

As I told Memoric, me and my fam are in the process of moving so getting on PS is a bit challenging right now.

I play on the DS with my brother-in-law and my son to help pass the time but finding people who adhere to OU rules and clauses can be a bit challenging.

Lost to an friggin' Darkrai the other day as the guy had a team of shiny UBERS. (Cough... HACK... Cough)

But anyways if you wanna take my pride and joy out for a spin then feel free to. I really worked hard on it.
 
although i havent tested this team, I have made a few of my own Sub Punch Mawile teams since I believe it to be the best Mawile set, and I found a team member that fits great with mega mawile, and fills the same role of Zapdos in this team somewhat.

Latias (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock / Thunderbolt
- Defog
- Healing Wish

Is immune to ground and doesn't care much for water and grass attacks, just like zapdos, and can defog just like zapdos, however with STAB psyshock, it also threatens mega-venu, which Zapdos has trouble doing. But the real beauty of Latias is in Healing Wish which gives Mega Mawile another chance to set up subs and sweep while still getting it in safely just like volt switch, although it is only a one time use.
 
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although i havent tested this team, I have made a few of my own Sub Punch Mawile teams since I believe it to be the best Mawile set, and I found a team member that fits great with mega mawile, and fills the same role of Zapdos in this team somewhat.

Latias (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock / Thunderbolt
- Defog
- Healing Wish

Is immune to ground and doesn't care much for water and grass attacks, just like zapdos, and can defog just like zapdos, however with STAB psyshock, it also threatens mega-venu, which Zapdos has trouble doing. But the real beauty of Latias is in Healing Wish which gives Mega Mawile another chance to set up subs and sweep while still getting it in safely just like volt switch, although it is only a one time use.
Nice suggestion jg1198.

Trust me when I tell you that Latias, and to a lesser extent Latios, was on the VERY short list of partners for this team.

Once, I've done some further tests I will let you know what happens.

Once again, awesome suggestion that will be taken under STRONG advisement.
 
Wow, I love this team (and your writing style)! I'll definitely be trying it out just for the feel, but looking at it now I have a few suggestions. It looks like your team has trouble dealing with heavy stall. One change I would make is Mawile's set. I think sub-punch is cool, but it has much more potential with better coverage. With your current set i dont see how focus punch is very useful, seeing as play rough can do hefty damage to dark types, and the pink blobs don't exactly wanna stay in on that either. You also might have trouble with Skarmory. I think to maximize effectiveness I'd ditch Focus Punch for Fire Fang. It gives you better coverage and Skarmory, and now you at least have neutral damage for Venusaur. Keep in mind, you could always opt for Swords Dance over Substitute now, but honestly both work and I'd you're looking to avoid being burned, Substitute might be the way to go.

The Latias suggestion comes up a lot, but to be honest I always view it as a waste of a slot. It's so easily counterable by Aegi slash and it's pretty frail as well. Although I admit it a nice having a defogger not weak to rocks, maybe try Specially Defensive Mew. It's very bulky and Venusaur can't really touch it. You could put Will-O-Wisp or Toxic on it, and I usually run defog and roost as well. It has a lot of diversity, you can even defog then set your own rocks up with it, which means you can maybe replace stealth rock on Landorus for Substitute, Calm Mind, Focus Blast, or Sludge Wave. Just a thought.

Other than that, I really love the team and would love a battle some time if you're ever on. I'm a driver in the tournaments room so if you see me, shoot me a challenge!

Good luck, and well done~
 
Wow, I love this team (and your writing style)! I'll definitely be trying it out just for the feel, but looking at it now I have a few suggestions. It looks like your team has trouble dealing with heavy stall. One change I would make is Mawile's set. I think sub-punch is cool, but it has much more potential with better coverage. With your current set i dont see how focus punch is very useful, seeing as play rough can do hefty damage to dark types, and the pink blobs don't exactly wanna stay in on that either. You also might have trouble with Skarmory. I think to maximize effectiveness I'd ditch Focus Punch for Fire Fang. It gives you better coverage and Skarmory, and now you at least have neutral damage for Venusaur. Keep in mind, you could always opt for Swords Dance over Substitute now, but honestly both work and I'd you're looking to avoid being burned, Substitute might be the way to go.

The Latias suggestion comes up a lot, but to be honest I always view it as a waste of a slot. It's so easily counterable by Aegi slash and it's pretty frail as well. Although I admit it a nice having a defogger not weak to rocks, maybe try Specially Defensive Mew. It's very bulky and Venusaur can't really touch it. You could put Will-O-Wisp or Toxic on it, and I usually run defog and roost as well. It has a lot of diversity, you can even defog then set your own rocks up with it, which means you can maybe replace stealth rock on Landorus for Substitute, Calm Mind, Focus Blast, or Sludge Wave. Just a thought.

Other than that, I really love the team and would love a battle some time if you're ever on. I'm a driver in the tournaments room so if you see me, shoot me a challenge!

Good luck, and well done~
Sorry but a lot of this post makes no sense. First of all focus punch is easy to use against skarm, and 150 power > 110 (65 x 2) so actually focus punch is better for skarm. And then mew is also slaughtered by aegislash so that isn't any advantage to use it over latias. If you're really afraid of Aegislash, you can even run shadow ball on lati@s to hit it for a lot of damage. Also the RMT clearly states that landorus' main purpose on the team is reliably forcing switches and setting stealth rocks, and putting dents in the other team when it can.
 
Wow Phaenon's Mew seems like an awesome suggestion!

A stallbreaker mew might be the best replacement. Zapdos's coverage is the copy of Rotom anyway.
I tried Latias, but i'll try this set as well:

Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Def
Calm Nature
- Psyshock/Heal bell/Roost/ U-turn?
- Taunt
- Defog
- Will-O-Wisp (For any Aegislash/Bisharp problemo)

It's so versatile.
 
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I was just saying that Latias is a more offensive support poke, and if you're gonna go with a support pokemon, go full out with the stats and status coverage. It also learns stealth rock. Focus Punch may be a bit more powerful on skarmory, so I guess the way I said it didn't make much sense, but focus punch isn't really needed in all honesty. Fire punch will give you better coverage, in my opinion. It also doesn't need the sub to be effective, because you can't always know that you'll be able to get a sub off. Anyways, just my two cents.
 
Hey Racheal J nice team. This team looks very solid and there isn't much that needs changing but I would like to suggest some things that maybe would make this team better. First, I don't really like the idea of assault vest scizor and I find that Choice Band Scizor works just as good as a pivot. Scizor's bulk is also pretty decent so I'm sure you can make do without the current set you're running right now.


Scizor @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Pursuit
- U-turn
- Superpower


Good luck with your team :)
 
Interesting read, here are some of the things that I've noticed:

  • Landorus has 4 EVs in HP, this isn't optimal because Landorus with no HP investment hits a Life Orb number (319)
  • Quagsire has a -SpA nature even though you're using Scald, I would suggest a Relaxed nature (+Def, -Spe) since you're not going to outrun anyone with a base 35 speed any time soon.

As for the team itself, it seems to me like you're running Defog just for the sake of VoltTurn spam on Rotom-H, I don't really think it's worth it tbh.

Anyways, I would probably change the Mawile set since your team lacks a solid win condition. I would go with a set like Swords Dance / Sucker Punch / Play Rough / Knock Off or Iron Head.

Good luck with your team. I hope I could help, even if only a little
 
I like the suggestions that are being made here.

Ada - Yea, Nature for Quag should be Relaxed... Copy-Paste error XD... Also, the 4 HP on Landorus will be moved to Def

Mew is definetly versatile... further testing is required however, to determine its viability along side the rest of this team.

Will get back to you all soon.

Continue with the strong feedback.
 
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Hey raf. Here's a replay of your team versing someone named Shofu and his posse of foul mouths.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-98388204

Doesn't even say GG. Your team broke his 8-0 record it seems >:D
I made a few misplays, but the team survived it.
This is the mew i'm testing:
Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Soft-Boiled
- Taunt
- Defog
- Will-O-Wisp

The 0 atk evs helped with that Klefki
 
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Hey raf. Here's a replay of your team versing someone named Shofu and his posse of foul mouths.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-98388204

Doesn't even say GG. Your team broke his 8-0 record it seems >:D
I made a few misplays, but the team survived it.
This is the mew i'm testing:
Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Soft-Boiled
- Taunt
- Defog
- Will-O-Wisp

The 0 atk evs helped with that Klefki
Nice replay and GOOD GAWD!!! Them fools were ridculous... I'm guessing its the same Shofu on Youtube but anyways...

Thanks for posting the replay... I was actually able to test the team for like 6-7 games yesterday afternoon (with Zapdos) Got nothing concrete at the moment but when I do I will post it. Mew does seem very nice though...

Preliminary observations are as follows:

- The Nuke "Toaster" is a g. Overheat blasts almost anything that doesn't resist it so its very nice to have.
- M-Mawile is too damn strong. Yes SD might put his ATK to stupid high levels but with Sub protecting you from status, Mawile gets to maul all opposition with impunity, unless opponent has a Ghost, will have to sac to break the Sub.
- Landorus Lead is too good. Forces switches like a champ.
- Scizor eats so all special attacks (except fire of course) for breakfast. CB set might be useful but the bulk that this particular Scizor set has is noticeable.
- Quagsire is the MVP of this team. He eats so many physical attacks and as long as I can avoid status, he hangs in the entire match. I love Ed :-D
- We will hold off on Zapdos, but in terms of removing hazards, he gets that accomplished very efficiently.

Let me know what observations you've ascertained during your experiments.

Greatly appreciate the feedback.
 
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Hi Raf :) I was wondering when you'd do your own RMT

This team has good synergy and handles all the major threats nicely.
It's assuring to see that you have two answers to that damned MegaSaur. Psychic and Overheat(specs), both do minimum 70%
Nothing stands out to me that can wall or break the team.
I just hate the fact that Smeargle can spore freely and pass a sub, or setup. But that's not a problem in higher ranks

I'll test the team myself and see if I can suggest any changes because I can't find any weak links.
A very solid team!
although i havent tested this team, I have made a few of my own Sub Punch Mawile teams since I believe it to be the best Mawile set, and I found a team member that fits great with mega mawile, and fills the same role of Zapdos in this team somewhat.

Latias (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock / Thunderbolt
- Defog
- Healing Wish

Is immune to ground and doesn't care much for water and grass attacks, just like zapdos, and can defog just like zapdos, however with STAB psyshock, it also threatens mega-venu, which Zapdos has trouble doing. But the real beauty of Latias is in Healing Wish which gives Mega Mawile another chance to set up subs and sweep while still getting it in safely just like volt switch, although it is only a one time use.
I was just saying that Latias is a more offensive support poke, and if you're gonna go with a support pokemon, go full out with the stats and status coverage. It also learns stealth rock. Focus Punch may be a bit more powerful on skarmory, so I guess the way I said it didn't make much sense, but focus punch isn't really needed in all honesty. Fire punch will give you better coverage, in my opinion. It also doesn't need the sub to be effective, because you can't always know that you'll be able to get a sub off. Anyways, just my two cents.
Interesting read, here are some of the things that I've noticed:

  • Landorus has 4 EVs in HP, this isn't optimal because Landorus with no HP investment hits a Life Orb number (319)
  • Quagsire has a -SpA nature even though you're using Scald, I would suggest a Relaxed nature (+Def, -Spe) since you're not going to outrun anyone with a base 35 speed any time soon.

As for the team itself, it seems to me like you're running Defog just for the sake of VoltTurn spam on Rotom-H, I don't really think it's worth it tbh.

Anyways, I would probably change the Mawile set since your team lacks a solid win condition. I would go with a set like Swords Dance / Sucker Punch / Play Rough / Knock Off or Iron Head.

Good luck with your team. I hope I could help, even if only a little
Hello all.

Here are some replays for your enjoyment. Please forgive some of my noobish misplays as a couple of these were played with my daughter on my lap... lol...

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-99051592 - Klefki SwagPlay needs to be BANNED!!!

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-99054751 - Daughter on me for first 7 turns.... after that class was in session and made 'em quit LIKE A BOSS!!!

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-99056706 - Lobo ''Nobody messes with the MAIN MAN'' 5 mon beatdown!!!

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-99060034 - Was stubborn with the Zapdos Mirror... Still managed to pull out a 4-1 win...

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-99062842 - Misplays, Hax and no Mawilite!!! Server wouldn't let me Mega and still eeked out a win!!!

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-99076862 - VERY strange match... i think it was 1 AM when my daughter finally fell to sleep.... at least she won't be a bad player like her dad XD

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-99404056 - Tenacious battle that saw Scizor and Mawile combine for a Steel Dual Beatdown

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-99412514 - Probably one of the better matches I played in regard to switching and prediction... if any... or this shows I'm a noob :-P

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-99420498 - Suicune made my team its bitch early into midgame.... Landorus slams the breaks with da Crit and Rotom nails the buzzer beater... arguably the most scintillating 10 turns of my life!!!!

P.S. If any would like can they nominate the Team for RMT Archive consideration... would greatly appreciate it!
 
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How do you deal with a manaphy? I was testing this since it looked really interesting(been looking for a mawile team to try out) and i got absolutely trashed since i let it get 1 tail glow off

zapdos got done in by ice beam at +2, rotom from surf at +2 and quaqsire just took an energy ball to the face. in the end I wasnt able to kill it since it resists bullet punch and crit the poor scizor.

What do you usually do against manaphys that run energy ball
 
How do you deal with a manaphy? I was testing this since it looked really interesting(been looking for a mawile team to try out) and i got absolutely trashed since i let it get 1 tail glow off

zapdos got done in by ice beam at +2, rotom from surf at +2 and quaqsire just took an energy ball to the face. in the end I wasnt able to kill it since it resists bullet punch and crit the poor scizor.

What do you usually do against manaphys that run energy ball
Yes. When I tested his team, I also found that Manaphy and CroCune were trouble. I couldn't find any suggestions though
 
As someone who has CroCune on his team, I know the devastation it can cause. I was looking through the team, and maybe this could help.

Over Zapdos, run Thundurus or Thundurus-Therian. Both outspeed Manaphy and definitely Suicune, and neither wants to take a thunderbolt to the face without boosts. Although, if Manaphy is a real issue you might want Thundurus-Therian over Thundurus because it OHKO's Manaphy. That being set, Nasty Plot on either is great, and Thundurus has extra speed.

With the loss of your defogger, I suggest taking the Assault Vest off of Scizor, give it Max HP and SpDef, and running Defog on that. You won't have quite as much special bulk, but hey, you gotta do what you gotta do.

Let me know what you think of these suggestions.

Good luck~
 
As someone who has CroCune on his team, I know the devastation it can cause. I was looking through the team, and maybe this could help.

Over Zapdos, run Thundurus or Thundurus-Therian. Both outspeed Manaphy and definitely Suicune, and neither wants to take a thunderbolt to the face without boosts. Although, if Manaphy is a real issue you might want Thundurus-Therian over Thundurus because it OHKO's Manaphy. That being set, Nasty Plot on either is great, and Thundurus has extra speed.

With the loss of your defogger, I suggest taking the Assault Vest off of Scizor, give it Max HP and SpDef, and running Defog on that. You won't have quite as much special bulk, but hey, you gotta do what you gotta do.

Let me know what you think of these suggestions.

Good luck~
To Hammerne, Phaenon & dragon_poop:

After thorough testing I think we can all agree that bulky water types like Crocune, and to a lesser extent Manaphy with its Base 100 Bulk across the board, are a deep concern for this team as mentioned.

I believe the Thundurus-T suggestion is a very strong one as well; though it personally pains me to change my beloved scizor but yes, we will have to denote him as the defog user.

To all general readers:

I will continue to look over the data as the one thing we DON'T want to do is make a change to the team that might compromise its ability to handle teams in the upper echelon tier of teams and gameplay.

A margin of error needs to be taken into effect for ALL teams that are built as stated in the OP, no team is perfect.

“Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence” – Vince Lombardi

With this being said, if anyone, yes I have no problem with anyone using the team, has a replay they can show of how the team operates on the higher levels of the ladder then that would be greatly appreciated.

Remember that on the lower levels of the ladder we may run into that random TR Team, SwagPlay (which is being suspect tested) or any other number of random factors that can either promote or detract from the overall prospective of this team.

I.E. -> "A buddy of mine ran into an Eeveelution team, yes you are reading the name right, and lost. His team was very well constructed but ended up losing the game when, on the switch, he WoW a Jolteon with Choice Specs. Guess what the ability of that Jolteon was? QUICK FEET!!! Jolteon proceeded to wreck the remainder of his team as his ground immunity was KO'd previously (by a crit no less)."

"Shit happens, someones gotta deal with it, and who you gonna CHOOSE!" - Modified quote from Bill Murray's character, Peter Venkman from "Ghostbusters II"... Yes I'm old... so what...

This is why if anyone can assist with replay documentation, it would be greatly appreciated.

From a usage standpoint, as of February 2014, Manaphy and Suicune are 88 and 119 on the usage list respectively, credit to data miner Antar for the data.

Even though it includes Genesect, as he was still legal, a one spot difference SHOULD'NT make a difference but then again the banning of him and Mega-Luke did shift the Meta whether we liked it or not.

This is where we are at, at the moment, and I will continue to provide updates when applicable.

Happy Battling everyone.
 
I agree strongly with Phaenon . I tested Thundurus > Zap and changed scizor's set.

What do you think about these sets?
Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Expert Belt
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Focus Blast
- Grass Knot

Scizor (M) @ Assault Vest Leftovers
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SDef
Careful Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Defog
- U-turn
- Superpower > Pursuit?

Grass knot is to suprise KO Gastrodon and friends. Now you will have 3 mons with HP Ice, i don't know who you should replace that move on..

I think Superpower is better to hit bisharp on the switch than trying to hurt Latias.

I'm also noticing that you have to struggle a little with Goodra, but I guess it's not a big problem

Edit: Sludge wave > HP Ice Lando?
 
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I agree strongly with Phaenon . I tested Thundurus > Zap and changed scizor's set.

What do you think about these sets?
Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Expert Belt
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 Def
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power
- Focus Blast
- Grass Knot

Scizor (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SDef
Careful Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Defog
- U-turn
- Superpower > Pursuit?


Grass knot is to suprise KO Gastrodon and friends. Now you will have 3 mons with HP Ice, i don't know who you should replace that move on..

I think Superpower is better to hit bisharp on the switch than trying to hurt Latias.

I'm also noticing that you have to struggle a little with Goodra, but I guess it's not a big problem
If we want to want Defog on Scizor, we got to take off the Assault Vest. I'm guessing since we are using the bulky version, that Leftovers might be the item of choice. Pursuit is needed to punish Latis that try to run away. Chansey/Blissey really aren't as big a problem unless they pack Seismis Toss for damage and even then, we have options for it (Trick Specs on it, Mawile get to go Mega, etc...)

Since we have HP Ice on three mons, we could change Rotom-H to carry HP Grass for Rock and Ground types that switch in on Trick Tom, but why not HP Flying on Thundurus-T? Mega Venusaur can be problematic if left to his own mechanism with Sleep Powder/Synthesis shenanigans.

Also, if we are not going to use Agility, why not give him Choice Scarf and replace Grass Knot for U-Turn? We can make him an Evil Revenge Killer as his speed will effectively be able to outrun +2 Gyarados and Dragonite. Thoughts...
 
Hmm.. those are some tough questions.

Ok, firstly, (psuedo) Bolt Beam is nice on Thundurus as things like chomp and Lando try to come in. So I prefer he keeps HP Ice. And so with rotom for the same reason, but If you put HP grass on Rotom, then you could switch Grass knot for Volt-Turn.(?) HP Flying seems reasonable. I'll test it.

The reason I don't agree with scarf is that you need to rely on prediction to get a kill if opposition isn't already weakened. With an Ebelt/LO, if they switch out things like (Manaphy/Crocune) into their counter/check for Thundurus... you can still hit them and sometimes even OHKO if you fake a Choice item with Ebelt
 
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Hmm.. those are some tough questions.

Ok, firstly, (psuedo) Bolt Beam is nice on Thundurus as things like chomp and Lando try to come in. So I prefer he keeps HP Ice. And so with rotom for the same reason, but If you put HP grass on Rotom, then you could switch Grass knot for Volt-Turn.(?) HP Flying seems reasonable. I'll test it.

The reason I don't agree with scarf is that you need to rely on prediction to get a kill if opposition isn't already weakened. With an Ebelt/LO, if they switch out things like (Manaphy/Crocune) into their counter/check for Thundurus... you can still hit them and sometimes even OHKO if you fake a Choice item with Ebelt
True... prediction does need to be precise if we use scarf... also faking the choice item can prove to be potent... at least we can agree on U-Turn to maintain momentum... after some testing i will update the OP.

Thanks for all your great input and suggestions. Lets keep on it.
 
I prefer LO on Thundy-T to OHKO Suicune 50% of the time. I've even run Nasty Plot on it which makes people cry. I've seen HP flying before, but coverage moves are really all about testing to see what you can and can't handle already with your other team members. Rafael did a great job of coming to the RMT prepared, and to make suggestions we should do the same and test some of this out, or simply take a look at what coverage we have. I'll definitely be getting back to you guys.
 
I like the team but would just like to re-emphasize that rotom-h and zapdos have redundant coverage, and they both dont like stealth rocks, I just dont think they belong together. I happen to think that thundurus is one of the best pokes in OU, so putting him on a team would pretty much always be an improvement. But that being said I dont like scizor with leftovers at all, I just find that he never gets to take advantage of it as he would problem just defog and either switch or u-turn out anyway. So with that in mind I dont think itd be the worst idea to band scizor and still use defog...its not as reliable but if your decision is between leftovers and band I would say band, because like I said early to mid game he would just defog and then switch anyway.

These are just some ideas but another thing would be maybe to have a dedicated sweeper, because as the team stands you get your wins from wearing down the other team and blasting holes in them with rotom and mawile, and while that is all good, I think if you had another pokemon that could use a free switch in to use a boosting move and sweep. You'd have more success with this team. So this brings me back to thundurus-i, if you just use nasty plot/hp ice/tbolt/focus blast....that gives you perfect coverage and you outspeed most pokes.


So TL;DR maybe consider thundy-i >zapdos choice band defog scizor>lefties scizor
 

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