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Item Choice Band and Choice Specs (Viable Users, and Current Role in the Metagame)

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The Shellder Smuggler said:
I know, but I have yet to see one positive point he has, in ever, that is.
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Positive point: remove the unviable stuff and people will start to take the thread more seriously. It's your job to know what is viable and what is not. The analysis thread is a great resource to see which pokemon use these items effectively. People come to this thread for advice for sets. Giving them bad information isn't helping. The fact that there are so many terrible choices like charge beam specs alakazam prove you are limited in your knowledge of the metagame.

Here's something that definitely needs adding:

Keldeo @ choice specs
Timid
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

Hydro Pump
Secret Sword
Scald
Icy wind/ HP flying
 
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LoDart210 said:
Latios' viability rides on his ability to lure heatran with earthquake and also as a fast defogger. Where is there room for choice specs? Last gen definitely but now, Latios doesn't have the luxury of specs, especially since Draco meteor and psyshock are seen coming from a mile away.

Also defensive rotom with specs sounds stupid as well. Why would you run specs when defensive rotom appreciate having will O wisp, pain split, and lefties (or chestorest) as part of its defensive repertoire. And if rotom goes offensive it far more appreciates a scarf for vast volt switches.
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How can a Pokemon's viability ride on luring something? Does anyone decent not expect EQ from Latios at this point? To imply that Latios would somehow not be viable if people didn't leave Heatran in or if it didn't have Defog is just absurd. Specs Draco Meteor is still very, very strong. Psyshock hits everything that can switch into DM hard outside of Tyranitar and Heatran who take a hefty amount from Surf. Hell, Specs Latios with Shadow Ball is a pretty cool lure for Aegislash, though you sacrifice coverage or Trick. Latios can provide wallbreaking, a fast Pokemon for checking things like Keldeo, Terrakion, Landorus, Garchomp, and is a Water resist that most offensive teams need.

On Rotom-w, no one is implying you run a defensive set with specs. You should open your mind a bit and maybe think a little before responding. 252 HP / 212 SAtk / 44 Spe, Modest. There's a specs Rotom-w that can maintain a great deal of bulk, while being a powerful specs attacker. Its purpose isn't to be a be all end all counter to those Pokemon. Its purpose is to bring that offensive presence and crippling capability of Trick, while being able to CHECK those Pokemon if need be, making it a solid addition to teams who don't want to be slowed down by a Defensive Rotom-w set.
 
Albacore said:
No, standard Heatran loses against these Pokemon. Not Specs Heatran. The entire point of those calcs was to show that Tyranitar, Conkeldurr, Landorus, and Mega Venusaur cannot switch into SpecsTran, even though they would counter it normally. All of these besides MVenusaur are outsped by Heatran, and Conkeldurr cannot OHKO Heatran with Mach Punch. Venusaur can outspeed Heatran, but unless it's Adamant with max Attack, which is almost never seen, cannot OHKO it with Earthquake. Same for Latias. Although I should have set the calc against Latios, because it's far more likely to have Earthquake than Latias, but my point still stands. SpecsTran does not check these Pokemon, but it has the advantage over regular Hetran to not be countered by them. Specs Heatran can defeat likely switch ins. That is what I was trying to prove with these calcs.

Plus, Specs Hetran is on the official analysis page, so, if you think it's unviable, Smogon disagrees.
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Oh ok so it would more function as a lure? In that case I can see how specs heatran works. Still, why would you use it over things like Yzard or chandelure, who is faster, higher special attack, comparable ability, a fighting immunity and only a x2 weakness to ground?
 
Fried Rhys said:
On Rotom-w, no one is implying you run a defensive set with specs. You should open your mind a bit and maybe think a little before responding. 252 HP / 212 SAtk / 44 Spe, Modest. There's a specs Rotom-w that can maintain a great deal of bulk, while being a powerful specs attacker. Its purpose isn't to be a be all end all counter to those Pokemon. Its purpose is to bring that offensive presence and crippling capability of Trick, while being able to CHECK those Pokemon if need be, making it a solid addition to teams who don't want to be slowed down by a Defensive Rotom-w set.
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If anyone mistook that I was running a defensive set on my rotom-w, I actually put a bulky attacker set.
 
Fried Rhys said:
How can a Pokemon's viability ride on luring something? Does anyone decent not expect EQ from Latios at this point? To imply that Latios would somehow not be viable if people didn't leave Heatran in or if it didn't have Defog is just absurd. Specs Draco Meteor is still very, very strong. Psyshock hits everything that can switch into DM hard outside of Tyranitar and Heatran who take a hefty amount from Surf. Hell, Specs Latios with Shadow Ball is a pretty cool lure for Aegislash, though you sacrifice coverage or Trick. Latios can provide wallbreaking, a fast Pokemon for checking things like Keldeo, Terrakion, Landorus, Garchomp, and is a Water resist that most offensive teams need.

On Rotom-w, no one is implying you run a defensive set with specs. You should open your mind a bit and maybe think a little before responding. 252 HP / 212 SAtk / 44 Spe, Modest. There's a specs Rotom-w that can maintain a great deal of bulk, while being a powerful specs attacker. Its purpose isn't to be a be all end all counter to those Pokemon. Its purpose is to bring that offensive presence and crippling capability of Trick, while being able to CHECK those Pokemon if need be, making it a solid addition to teams who don't want to be slowed down by a Defensive Rotom-w set.
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I didn't mean Latios is ONLY viable because it can lure heatran and Defog. I know its Draco meteor and psyshock coverage is really great, but with pursuit and knock off being so rampant and more offensive steel types running around, getting choice locked into Draco meteor or psyshock isn't a good idea.
 
Okay, I'll throw in my two cents here.

sylveon.gif

Sylveon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 244 HP / 252 SpA / 12 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Ground] / Hidden Power [Fire]


Sylveon is a really underrated Specs user in the current meta. The reason for this is some people that overlook her amazing base 110 Special Attack, great coverage, & solid Fairy typing. Her bulk isn't too bad either, so a Specs set is completely justifiable for her. Hyper Voice in conjunction with Pixilate equates to a base power of 117, & that's not even including STAB either, & it can put a dent in anything that doesn't resist it. Psyshock helps against Mega Venusaur, a very common switch in to Sylveon. Shadow Ball hits Aegislash for super-effective damage, while granting her nearly perfect type coverage. Hidden Power Ground rounds out her coverage by hitting & sometimes grabbing the OHKO on Heatran (Granted it doesn't carry a Balloon, or if it is popped beforehand. Hidden Power Fire is also a solid option & it has a good chance to OHKO standard Mega Scizor.


Here are some damage calcs to show you how good this thing is:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 268-316 (69.6 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Mega Venusaur: 194-230 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 187-221 (55.9 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 244 SpD Mega Scizor: 308-364 (89.5 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Shadow Ball vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 442-522 (137.2 - 162.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

All these are common switch-ins to normal Sylveon sets, but if they come in on the wrong move, they are in for a world of hurt.
 
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 291-342 (97.6 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 337-397 (47.1 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Basically, switch Chandelure into a Will-o-Wisp, and then fuck shit up. With a solid 2HKO when Flash Fire Boosted against even Blissey, it is very hard to find a wall that can deal with Specs Chandelure.

Charizard-Y is a very welcome sight to Chandelure, as Chandelure gets fire boosted, sun boosted, and resists the potential solar beam. But be careful, Charizard-Y is a very flexible pokemon which outspeeds Chandelure. A rogue Earthquake Charizard-Y or Air Slash can bring an end to the fragile Chandelure.

The main problem is that the premier WoW pokemon is Rotom-W, which has Hydro Pump... even a Volt Switch is a dangerous mispredict as Chandelure's speed is rather low. Regardless, its a dangerous game to play, but the rewards are downright ridiculous.

+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 243-287 (79.9 - 94.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Resists? Fuck resists. OHKO them anyway. You're a motherfucking Chandelure. You'll probably kill whatever else they plan on switching in at that point.

Oh yeah, other moves.

252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 302-356 (99.3 - 117.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Okay, its a more solid attack to just Energy Ball the Rotom. But smacking the switch-in with Fire Blast / Overheat is a dumb but effective strategy. Honestly, the main problem is Heatran. Everyone else just rolls over to Overheats, even if they do resist.

Overheat
Fire Blast
Shadow Ball
Energy Ball

---------------

High-risk, high reward. Chandelure's niche is Fighting / Fire immunity behind a slow, fragile wallbreaker. Specs increases its wallbreaking capacity to the max. Hit and Run Overheat is difficult due to Stealth Rocks weakness... but remains an effective use of Chandelure. Even if they know its coming, its hard to stop this wallbreaker.
 
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LoDart210 said:
Oh ok so it would more function as a lure? In that case I can see how specs heatran works. Still, why would you use it over things like Yzard or chandelure, who is faster, higher special attack, comparable ability, a fighting immunity and only a x2 weakness to ground?
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I think I already mentioned wallbreaker Megas, of which Charizard Y is one, and that not wanting to waste a mega slot is a solid argument, as for Chandelure... actually, Chandy seems like a pretty good Choice Specs user. But Chandelure doesn't have nearly as much bulk as Heatran, and Heatran's defensive typing enables it to switch into many more attacks than Chandelure. Notably, Hetran can reliably counter Mawile, who has no business staying in on Heatran, since WoW is a relatively common move on it, and will therefore be prompted to switch into something like... well maybe Conkeldurr! And that is where my calcs come in play. This is basically what SpecsTran does : forces things out, and hits what comes in for massive damage regardless. In that sense, it's a little like this thing :

crawdaunt.gif

Crawdaunt @ Choice Band
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP (or Spe) / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Aqua Jet
- Crabhammer
- Superpower / Crunch

Crawdaunt is an absolute beast, but, unfortunately, it's very frail. If you can send it in and set up, it can be a massive threat, but that's a big "if". Plus, even after a Dragon Dance, it's still too slow to outspeed a lot of threats. Choice Band solves that problem a little since it gives Crawdaunt a way to immediately threaten the opposing team. Crawdaunt's greatest talent is forcing switches, and punishing the switch-in hard with an Adaptability-boosted Knock Off. Choice Band is great in conjunction with Knock Off since it's a very spammable move. Aqua Jet gives it some badly needed priority, Crabhammer is a very powerful STAB move, and Superpower can provide good coverage against Breloom, Greninja, Keldeo, Ferrothorn and Chesnaught. While Crunch might seem stupid (and it did to me at first), it can be an option if you predict a Mega or something that already lost its item to come in, and also, Adaptability makes type coverage a little redundant on Crawdaunt, so the 4th move is kinda filler anyway.
 
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Dr Ciel, Specs Sylveon is really good. Hyper Voice is crazy powerful. I have been using Baton Pass in slot 4 though, you could drop Shadow Ball or Hidden Power for it maybe, dry Passing is pretty useful even though it doesn't do any damage.
 
Well I've done enough arguing and not enough contributing

1389474313277.gif

Victini @ choice band
Adamant/Jolly Nature
252 attack/252 speed/4 HP
- V-Create
- Bolt Strike
- U-Turn
- Zen Headbutt/Brick Break

That 100 speed tier is getting crowded, possibly no longer good enough for a sweeper, but an excellent wall breaker speed tier.

With v-create (especially under sun) victini punches holes in anything that doesn't resist it. U- turn is great for momentum and bolt strike hits defoggers hard. Zen headbutt can be used for conk but knock off is a scary move and brick break gives you better coverage against the likes of tyranitar, heatran, and bisharp.

What do you guys think?
 
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LoDart210 said:
Well I've done enough arguing and not enough contributing

1389474313277.gif

Victini @ choice band
Jolly Nature
252 attack/252 speed/4 HP
- V-Create
- Bolt Strike
- U-Turn
- Zen Headbutt/Brick Break

That 100 speed tier is getting crowded, possibly no longer good enough for a sweeper, but an excellent wall breaker speed tier.

With v-create (especially under sun) victini punches holes in anything that doesn't resist it. U- turn is great for momentum and bolt strike hits defoggers hard. Zen headbutt can be used for conk but knock off is a scary move and brick break gives you better coverage against the likes of tyranitar, heatran, and bisharp.

What do you guys think?
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I would definitely get rid of zen headbutt. Brick Break is better than it, considering that V-Create does a shitton to conk already.

200th post c:
 
LoDart210 said:
Well I've done enough arguing and not enough contributing

1389474313277.gif

Victini @ choice band
Jolly Nature
252 attack/252 speed/4 HP
- V-Create
- Bolt Strike
- U-Turn
- Zen Headbutt/Brick Break

That 100 speed tier is getting crowded, possibly no longer good enough for a sweeper, but an excellent wall breaker speed tier.

With v-create (especially under sun) victini punches holes in anything that doesn't resist it. U- turn is great for momentum and bolt strike hits defoggers hard. Zen headbutt can be used for conk but knock off is a scary move and brick break gives you better coverage against the likes of tyranitar, heatran, and bisharp.

What do you guys think?
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Jolly does have its uses, but IMO, go Adamant or go home. But yeah, I totally agree Victini deserves a mention.
 
finncent1 said:
Jolly does have its uses, but IMO, go Adamant or go home. But yeah, I totally agree Victini deserves a mention.
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My train of thought was that a lot of Pokemon nowadays don't run speed natures so taking advantage of that can be the difference between a guaranteed win or a speed tie. I'll edit though because Adamant is definitely a great choice.
 
Darmanitan is another Choice Band user who deserves mention. Sheer Force + Choice Band + STAB + 140 Attack leads to absolutely ridiculous amounts of damage. At 95 base speed, its got a reasonable speed tier. It is absolutely a suicide bomber set however, KOing enemies before KOing itself.

http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/darmanitan

For those who haven't done the calcs:

252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 138-163 (45.3 - 53.6%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 280-331 (66 - 78%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 338-398 (92.8 - 109.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 348-411 (114.4 - 135.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

As a fire pokemon, Darmanitan is immune to WoW and switches in for free. Then it can OHKO stupid bulky stuff like max/max Sableye.

The only `mon that he has issues with is Slowbro.
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 164-194 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

It is absolutely a glass cannon pokemon however, and dies to the slightest touch. But with high HP, Darmanitan can keep up the Flare Blitz suicide run for a bit longer than your standard 48HP EVed Talonflame, while smacking hard with Banded + Sheer Force boosted Flare Blitzes.
 
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How can you forget the most powerful Choice Band user of all time, Kyurem-Black? That sweet 170 Attack stat...

Kyurem-Black @ Choice Band
Trait: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Naive/Hasty Nature
- Outrage
- Dragon Claw
- Fusion Bolt
- Ice Beam/Earth Power

Kyurem-Black should be mentioned in the thread as one of the best Pokemon to abuse Choice Band in the history of OU
 
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